Fleetwood Mac drama vs Styx drama

Macfan4life · #1 10-08-2023, 01:16 PM

There are lots of fights in bands. Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, and Van Halen all have had huge fights and fired key members while other members just got up and quit. The band Styx's drama makes Fleetwood Mac look like a walk in the park. Similar to Fleetwood Mac, the band Styx had 3 writers and singers in the band. Styx ruled 1981 with their concept album Paradise Theater. Songs like The Best of Times and Too Much Time on My Hands ruled the charts while the album went to #1. The concept album was the idea of Dennis DeYoung who was considered the main singer of the band. He also played keyboards. The album was so successful that the following album was another concept album "Kilroy Was Here." The album went to #3 and produced 2 top 10 singles and went platinum. However it sold considerably less than what their previous albums sold. Band members especially Tommy Shaw started to question DeYoung for wanting to play ballads and more keyboard orientated songs. The band started their Kilroy Was Here in tiny theaters to give fans an intimate setting for their theater performances. Kilroy Was Here was a concept based on a classic book and movie where music was banned and freedom and was an anti-fascist statement. But this is where the wheels started coming off. Styx was forced to start playing large arenas on the tour and took part of a Monsters of Rock stadium show where the band was booed because of their theme robot opening. Guitarist Tommy Shaw said that he had to drink himself blind every night before taking the stage. Things got so bad that Tommy Shaw quit the band on stage one night.
Tommy Shaw joined Ted Nugents band Damn Yankees and each night on their tour Nugent would mock Dennis DeYoung and play the opening of Styx's ballad song Babe each night as a funny joke to Shaw. Shaw and DeYoung eventually ran into eachother and DeYoung put it to show how low he was to mock the work they did with Styx. Eventually DeYoung left the band and went solo. They had reunion tours in 1997. But then DeYoung could not perform for a bit because of an illness. Styx fired him and hired a replacement. DeYoung then sued the band. Lindsey also sued Fleetwood Mac. Today DeYoung wants one last Styx tour with the band but the band does not want him.

Fleetwood Mac also had 3 singers in the band. Lindsey took creative control of the band for Tusk. While Tusk had hit singles it lost a huge part of their audience. This was Tommy Shaw's beef with DeYoung. While Kilroy Was Here was a success, it cost them a huge fan base and were not being played on rock stations anymore. Fleetwood Mac also sort of suffered the same consequence from Tusk. Classic Rock stations only play Fleetwood Mac songs from the White Album and Rumours. DeYoung did leave the band and came back for a reunion but then got fired by the band. The same thing happened to Lindsey.
I have watched most Vh1's Behind the music and Styx was one of the best because of all the drama. The crazy part is that Styx is on tour and actually performing Mr Roboto as their first encore. This was the song that Shaw said killed the band. Oh the irony. In DeYoung's solo concerts he has his guitarist perform Shaw's Too Much Time On My Hands.
Anyway here are a few interviews with the band and DeYoung.
I wonder if Lindsey and Dennis understand each other in challenging audiences and fans. In Mick's book he wrote how frustrated Lindsey would get some nights on the Tusk tour with front row fans shouting at Lindsey that the band had sold out. Dennis went though a similar experience. Like Tusk, Kilroy Was Here charted in the top 5 and had 2 successful singles in the top 10. Yet it did not go to #1 like its predecessor and sold considerably less. The arrows came out. Like Lindsey, Dennis's replacement is singing his songs on stage especially the ones that Shaw and the others said killed the band. And just like Fleetwood Mac, they go on like nothing happened.

Styx bandmates talk about DeYoung and how they dont want him back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTfl...o9eUVw&index=2

DeYoung talks about the excuses the band uses to keep him out of the band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax2Y...o9eUVw&index=3

Dennis DeYoung in recent solo concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoEs...o9eUVw&index=1

Villavic · #2 10-09-2023, 11:41 AM

I like Styx music, specially the 1977-81 era. Paradise Theatre was a good concept album, but I think they went too far with Kilroy. Though I enjoyed some Kilroy songs, the whole thing (album, concerts) seemed kind of a Broadway or even Vegas show. And that's the main difference between Fleetwood Mac change (from Rumours to Tusk) and Styx change (from Cornerstone or Paradise, to Kilroy). Styx went too far. I think Tommy and JY shouldn't accept to record Kilroy album, since they weren't happy with that change, specially Tommy.

It's not unusual that a musican wants to change style, sound. But in that case Dennis should develop that change in his solo career (like Phil Collins, Sting) and not spoil their band. Although that implies the risk that the band ends, it's the best decision anyway.

And yes, Styx's Behind the music is a very good one. That's where I learned why they didn't release First Time as a single. That song is so beautiful, but I understood Tommy's point.

They play Mr Roboto in its current tour? With no Dennis in the band??? That's so absurd and contradictory with all we learned in the BTM video! They could choose any other (Tommy's or JY's) song from Kilroy.

But I don't think they go on like nothing happened. My perception is that they are no longer seen as the band they were during the Cornerstone days. Fleetwood Mac instead is still a legend band.
And if Dennis were still in the band (assuming in good health), recording songs in good consensus without betraying the band roots, they wouldn't be playing in 2000 seat theaters and casinos. In spite of all the nightmares and changes, Fleetwood Mac played in arenas until their last tour (wether we liked it or not).

Macfan4life · #3 10-09-2023, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villavic

I like Styx music, specially the 1977-81 era. Paradise Theatre was a good concept album, but I think they went too far with Kilroy. Though I enjoyed some Kilroy songs, the whole thing (album, concerts) seemed kind of a Broadway or even Vegas show. And that's the main difference between Fleetwood Mac change (from Rumours to Tusk) and Styx change (from Cornerstone or Paradise, to Kilroy). Styx went too far. I think Tommy and JY shouldn't accept to record Kilroy album, since they weren't happy with that change, specially Tommy.

It's not unusual that a musican wants to change style, sound. But in that case Dennis should develop that change in his solo career (like Phil Collins, Sting) and not spoil their band. Although that implies the risk that the band ends, it's the best decision anyway.

And yes, Styx's Behind the music is a very good one. That's where I learned why they didn't release First Time as a single. That song is so beautiful, but I understood Tommy's point.

They play Mr Roboto in its current tour? With no Dennis in the band??? That's so absurd and contradictory with all we learned in the BTM video! They could choose any other (Tommy's or JY's) song from Kilroy.

But I don't think they go on like nothing happened. My perception is that they are no longer seen as the band they were during the Cornerstone days. Fleetwood Mac instead is still a legend band.
And if Dennis were still in the band (assuming in good health), recording songs in good consensus without betraying the band roots, they wouldn't be playing in 2000 seat theaters and casinos. In spite of all the nightmares and changes, Fleetwood Mac played in arenas until their last tour (wether we liked it or not).

Yes believe it or not but its the first encore of their tour this year. Dennis was involved in a change in management they did not like. But this would be like if Fleetwood Mac fired Lindsey for the Tusk album and trashed the album for alienating their fan base. Then Fleetwood Mac starts performing Tusk in concert years later with a Lindsey replacement.
Absolutely incredible.
The song was ahead of its time if you listen to the lyrics. It's not even synth pop. It was unusual for its time but I think it holds up well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbtvEiG7OCM

David · #4 10-10-2023, 12:28 PM

the only album I ever had was Pieces of Eight. “Blue Collar Man,” “Renegade” (both Shaw songs). Dennis had a marvelous voice but he struck me as so damn pompous and rather inclined to schmaltz. The whole “Roboto” thing was off-putting, about as deep or interesting as a teenage boy’s idea of futurism. It was emblematic of everything that the rock press rejected about prog. I myself had to overcome a long-term bias against prog in recent times, as I’ve come to appreciate some of it, from early Genesis to Jethro Tull. But I still really don’t like ELP and Rush and some others. Of course, the real prog fans reject the arena rock posturing of Styx, Boston, and Kansas because they’re essentially pop bands with mostly four-minute radio songs — a King Crimson or Gentle Giant prog fan wouldn’t be caught dead listening to them. So even in prog there are hierarchies, with true believers and phonies. Layers of Oberheim on your radio-friendly song does not a prog act make.

I hadn’t thought about the parallels between Mac and Styx before.

Villavic · #5 10-10-2023, 03:42 PM

By the way, I love this version

Fooling Yourself - Tommy & Contemporary Youth Orchestra

Macfan4life · #6 10-11-2023, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villavic

By the way, I love this version

Fooling Yourself - Tommy & Contemporary Youth Orchestra

This guy is pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VhpsUth4KkA

**jbrownsjr** · #7 10-12-2023, 09:44 AM

Macfan, I moved this over here because I like this discussion and it's very relevant to Rumours drama. (Hope you don't mind).

Macfan4life · #8 10-12-2023, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Macfan, I moved this over here because I like this discussion and it's very relevant to Rumours drama. (Hope you don't mind).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKZI3l3YyR8

**jbrownsjr** · #9 10-12-2023, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKZI3l3YyR8

Tommy Shaw was Stevie's closest friend from Styx.

Macfan4life · #10 10-13-2023, 04:14 PM

This is interesting.
This is the mini Kilroy Was Here Film that preceded their 1983 concerts. Then it shows their "performance" in their opening act.
I think the concept was far ahead of its time. There is so much censorship today. This was right before Tipper Gore's PMRC label stuff too. While I applaud the concept, I can see where fans were turned off. They are there for music and this stuff went right over their head. I can see why Tommy had to drink himself blind before acting out his role on stage. But I think its really cool from today's standards. There is a huge statement here. Styx could pack arenas yet look how they are performing in a theater for these shows. I think that is so cool. Their manager should have had them pull the plug on this during the Monsters of Rock show. No way metal and hard rock fans were into this stuff. I think Tommy said something like he saw tons of people running for the exits at the stadium and he had to catch and put on this robot mask over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5fmy_bAZ_U

Villavic · #11 10-13-2023, 04:24 PM

I'm trying to imagine if one of the Mac albums could become a concept album. I thought in Tusk since it's a double album and there is enough material, but the lyrics doesn't fit together to define the concept; I guess I thought about Tusk because it's double as Pink Floyd The Wall (which by the way is one of the greatest concept albums I've found).

It would have been easier to turn Rumours into a concept album, but the mini film would be like a soup opera.

Macfan4life · #12 10-14-2023, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villavic

I'm trying to imagine if one of the Mac albums could become a concept album. I thought in Tusk since it's a double album and there is enough material, but the lyrics doesn't fit together to define the concept; I guess I thought about Tusk because it's double as Pink Floyd The Wall (which by the way is one of the greatest concept albums I've found).

It would have been easier to turn Rumours into a concept album, but the mini film would be like a soup opera.

Oh yes, they could have done a soap opera. Each night they could have performed the infamous shin kick during the shacking up line.

BaronVonBielski · #13 10-19-2023, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

There are lots of fights in bands. Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, and Van Halen all have had huge fights and fired key members while other members just got up and quit. The band Styx's drama makes Fleetwood Mac look like a walk in the park. Similar to Fleetwood Mac, the band Styx had 3 writers and singers in the band. Styx ruled 1981 with their concept album Paradise Theater. Songs like The Best of Times and Too Much Time on My Hands ruled the charts while the album went to #1. The concept album was the idea of Dennis DeYoung who was considered the main singer of the band. He also played keyboards. The album was so successful that the following album was another concept album "Kilroy Was Here." The album went to #3 and produced 2 top 10 singles and went platinum. However it sold considerably less than what their previous albums sold. Band members especially Tommy Shaw started to question DeYoung for wanting to play ballads and more keyboard orientated songs. The band started their Kilroy Was Here in tiny theaters to give fans an intimate setting for their theater performances. Kilroy Was Here was a concept based on a classic book and movie where music was banned and freedom and was an anti-fascist statement. But this is where the wheels started coming off. Styx was forced to start playing large arenas on the tour and took part of a Monsters of Rock stadium show where the band was booed because of their theme robot opening. Guitarist Tommy Shaw said that he had to drink himself blind every night before taking the stage. Things got so bad that Tommy Shaw quit the band on stage one night.
Tommy Shaw joined Ted Nugents band Damn Yankees and each night on their tour Nugent would mock Dennis DeYoung and play the opening of Styx's ballad song Babe each night as a funny joke to Shaw. Shaw and DeYoung eventually ran into eachother and DeYoung put it to show how low he was to mock the work they did with Styx. Eventually DeYoung left the band and went solo. They had reunion tours in 1997. But then DeYoung could not perform for a bit because of an illness. Styx fired him and hired a replacement. DeYoung then sued the band. Lindsey also sued Fleetwood Mac. Today DeYoung wants one last Styx tour with the band but the band does not want him.

Fleetwood Mac also had 3 singers in the band. Lindsey took creative control of the band for Tusk. While Tusk had hit singles it lost a huge part of their audience. This was Tommy Shaw's beef with DeYoung. While Kilroy Was Here was a success, it cost them a huge fan base and were not being played on rock stations anymore. Fleetwood Mac also sort of suffered the same consequence from Tusk. Classic Rock stations only play Fleetwood Mac songs from the White Album and Rumours. DeYoung did leave the band and came back for a reunion but then got fired by the band. The same thing happened to Lindsey.
I have watched most Vh1's Behind the music and Styx was one of the best because of all the drama. The crazy part is that Styx is on tour and actually performing Mr Roboto as their first encore. This was the song that Shaw said killed the band. Oh the irony. In DeYoung's solo concerts he has his guitarist perform Shaw's Too Much Time On My Hands.
Anyway here are a few interviews with the band and DeYoung.
I wonder if Lindsey and Dennis understand each other in challenging audiences and fans. In Mick's book he wrote how frustrated Lindsey would get some nights on the Tusk tour with front row fans shouting at Lindsey that the band had sold out. Dennis went though a similar experience. Like Tusk, Kilroy Was Here charted in the top 5 and had 2 successful singles in the top 10. Yet it did not go to #1 like its predecessor and sold considerably less. The arrows came out. Like Lindsey, Dennis's replacement is singing his songs on stage especially the ones that Shaw and the others said killed the band. And just like Fleetwood Mac, they go on like nothing happened.

Styx bandmates talk about DeYoung and how they dont want him back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTfl...o9eUVw&index=2

DeYoung talks about the excuses the band uses to keep him out of the band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax2Y...o9eUVw&index=3

Dennis DeYoung in recent solo concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoEs...o9eUVw&index=1

Ironically, 2 of my top 5 all time favorite bands. No matter what anyone thinks, DDY would catapult the band into larger venues being sold out at least for a while. Styx currently puts on an excellent show. I saw them during the Summer and had a blast. But DDY would have made it a dream come true for me.
I won’t even discuss attending a Fleetwood Mac concert without Lindsey Buckingham. I’d never support that. I’ve seen Lindsey solo twice and it was great. Now with Christine McVie gone, it wouldn’t matter anyway.

aleuzzi · #14 10-21-2023, 06:28 PM

I loved Styx growing up. Even when I knew what I was sometimes hearing was in bad taste.

The band is nothing without DeYoung. I never bought the “Dennis is easy listening and Tommy’s a rocker” argument. Yes, Shaw wrote Blue Collar Man, Renegade, and Too Much Time, but he wrote just as many sappy ballads and was—I think—at his best with the folk-influenced stuff.

For what it’s worth, my favorite Styx album, by a long shot, is Equinox, and Tommy doesn’t play on it. He joined for that tour…

And Dennis’ concepts were juvenile, even nauseating in their binaries, but the man had (and still has) a terrific voice and knows how to put on a show. James Young and Tommy Shaw worked best when they collaborated with him.