Stevie Nicks Always Wanted Mike Campbell in FM???

[HomerMcvie]

75% of what we ALL have here is speculation.

Spare me the preachy lectures.

Have a nice day.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

75% of what we ALL have here is speculation.

Spare me the preachy lectures.

Have a nice day.

The amount of speculation is far higher than 75%. The problem is that a huge majority of that speculation is presented as fact.

Speculation is fine, provided that it is clearly presented as such. And if someone wildly speculates and then uses that to start name-calling and bashing band members, well then they deserve a bit of preaching.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by Ench

Using swear words and replacing 's' with '$' does not an argument make.

FM reached, in their words, an impasse. Given that they needed replacements for Lindsey if they wanted to continue activity (which we should be thankful for - FM2018 is much better than no FM at all), then hiring talented friends who they know they can with for is a reasonable thing to do.

It is Fleetwood Mac indeed. A band which has reinvented itself with new lineups throughout its 50 year history. With greater and lesser artistic and commercial success. This is just one more step in this process.

Fleetwood Mac was never about any one person. You may say that Fleetwood Mac is just about Lindsey, but clearly the band disagree with you. I'm sorry, but the band's opinion clearly and massively overrides yours.

Many would disagree with the first bit-- better than nothing at all.

It depends on how you feel about the second bit- that they are band reinventing themselves as they've always done.

Because in the past, when new members have come in, it was explicitly for the purpose of the band making new music and going in a new direction. NOT to bring in new members who, for example, would only ever play Peter Green songs over and over. That would not have been a "new" FM it would have been a tribute band. Instead, S&L came in (or Welch etc etc) and brought their new sensibilities to the band and the band veered into a whole new direction. FM with PG is not FM with S&L.

In the current case, no one made the case "oh we brought in Mike and Neil to take us in a new direction" The statement from the band was that they had a tour booked and needed players to help them fulfill that commitment. These guys are being hired to help FM play their existing, historical hits. It's like they are session players for the road.

Now, if this goes well and they decide, hey let's make new music with Mike and Neil, then maybe it will represent a new era in the ongoing FM musical story. So far that hasn't even been said to be the intention.

Plus, if they do in fact make new music and record again etc, and the remaining members of the Rumours5 put out new stuff, why didn't they do it before LB left? LB was never a hindrance to the band putting out new material, on the contrary he ADVOCATED vociferously for it. The stick in the mud, the fly in the ointment to new music was STEVIE. NOT Lindsey.

So if they start making new music NOW, without Lindsey, and Stevie is all onboard about it, what does that tell you? She had just as much opportunity and support to do new music when LB was still there. She chose not to do it. She was adamant about not doing it. Then Lindsey is out, and suddenly she has this magical inspiration to do new music. What does that tell you? She had no desire and made no effort whatsoever to do new music with HIM. All the bs about "the music business" is revealed for what it is. It becomes very, very clear that she withheld her participation, which totally eliminated the chance for growth of the band, because of her personal feelings about him.

Furthermore, reliable sources (people around the band who for obvious reasons don't want their names put out in public-- they still have to work) have indicated that Stevie (in addition to having refused to record with the band since 2003) then gave an ultimatum in which she refused to tour again if LB was still there.

The hypocrisy of them saying "well we're a band and when everyone is on the same page except one person, we have to cut that one person loose" is beyond words. Everyone was on the same page for making a new album except Stevie-- so by their rule, she should have been cut loose. But she wasn't. In fact the record that the other 4 all did together couldn't even get released as FM because of her.

If you can't see the bias in all this behavior, it's because you don't want to. I've been a huge Stevie fan since I was 15 (back in the 70s) so I get how difficult it is to see your idol fall. Or maybe you're a new fan and don't know all the band history. But this action on her part is in line with so much of their historical dynamic. And shame on the rest of them for putting up with it. Why would they?? MONEY. So now we know business trumps all.

And BTW, of course there is speculation here-- IT IS A FAN BOARD. This is not an industry news site; it's a place for fans to come together and talk, speculate, wonder, complain, etc. Never ceases to amaze me that people don't understand wtf a fan board is or what it's for. If you want hard news, go to a hard news site FFS.

[Angel75]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

Many would disagree with the first bit-- better than nothing at all.

It depends on how you feel about the second bit- that they are band reinventing themselves as they've always done.

Because in the past, when new members have come in, it was explicitly for the purpose of the band making new music and going in a new direction. NOT to bring in new members who, for example, would only ever play Peter Green songs over and over. That would not have been a "new" FM it would have been a tribute band. Instead, S&L came in (or Welch etc etc) and brought their new sensibilities to the band and the band veered into a whole new direction. FM with PG is not FM with S&L.

In the current case, no one made the case "oh we brought in Mike and Neil to take us in a new direction" The statement from the band was that they had a tour booked and needed players to help them fulfill that commitment. These guys are being hired to help FM play their existing, historical hits. It's like they are session players for the road.

Now, if this goes well and they decide, hey let's make new music with Mike and Neil, then maybe it will represent a new era in the ongoing FM musical story. So far that hasn't even been said to be the intention.

Plus, if they do in fact make new music and record again etc, and the remaining members of the Rumours5 put out new stuff, why didn't they do it before LB left? LB was never a hindrance to the band putting out new material, on the contrary he ADVOCATED vociferously for it. The stick in the mud, the fly in the ointment to new music was STEVIE. NOT Lindsey.

So if they start making new music NOW, without Lindsey, and Stevie is all onboard about it, what does that tell you? She had just as much opportunity and support to do new music when LB was still there. She chose not to do it. She was adamant about not doing it. Then Lindsey is out, and suddenly she has this magical inspiration to do new music. What does that tell you? She had no desire and made no effort whatsoever to do new music with HIM. All the bs about "the music business" is revealed for what it is. It becomes very, very clear that she withheld her participation, which totally eliminated the chance for growth of the band, because of her personal feelings about him.

Furthermore, reliable sources (people around the band who for obvious reasons don't want their names put out in public-- they still have to work) have indicated that Stevie (in addition to having refused to record with the band since 2003) then gave an ultimatum in which she refused to tour again if LB was still there.

The hypocrisy of them saying "well we're a band and when everyone is on the same page except one person, we have to cut that one person loose" is beyond words. Everyone was on the same page for making a new album except Stevie-- so by their rule, she should have been cut loose. But she wasn't. In fact the record that the other 4 all did together couldn't even get released as FM because of her.

If you can't see the bias in all this behavior, it's because you don't want to. I've been a huge Stevie fan since I was 15 (back in the 70s) so I get how difficult it is to see your idol fall. Or maybe you're a new fan and don't know all the band history. But this action on her part is in line with so much of their historical dynamic. And shame on the rest of them for putting up with it. Why would they?? MONEY. So now we know business trumps all.

Well said ....and yes agreed MONEY trumped at the end of the day

[Ench]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

Many would disagree with the first bit-- better than nothing at all.

That's your personal choice. However, there are a lot of people who would prefer some Fleetwood Mac than none. Which will be visible when we see how many tickets they sell on the tours.

It depends on how you feel about the second bit- that they are band reinventing themselves as they've always done.

Because in the past, when new members have come in, it was explicitly for the purpose of the band making new music and going in a new direction. NOT to bring in new members who, for example, would only ever play Peter Green songs over and over. That would not have been a "new" FM it would have been a tribute band. Instead, S&L came in (or Welch etc etc) and brought their new sensibilities to the band and the band veered into a whole new direction. FM with PG is not FM with S&L.

In the current case, no one made the case "oh we brought in Mike and Neil to take us in a new direction" The statement from the band was that they had a tour booked and needed players to help them fulfill that commitment. These guys are being hired to help FM play their existing, historical hits. It's like they are session players for the road.

Now, if this goes well and they decide, hey let's make new music with Mike and Neil, then maybe it will represent a new era in the ongoing FM musical story. So far that hasn't even been said to be the intention.

Well, I would say that even just a tour is a new Fleetwood Mac. New recordings would make this a much much more significant era than just one tour. But as you say we don't know if that will happen.

While it's entirely circumstantial, Neil Finn is not known as a superb guitarist or singer. He's very good at both, but if all they wanted him for was singing and playing, there are better options. What Neil Finn is known as is a songwriter, and Mick has already sat in on Finn recording original material. I'm not saying there's enough there to start assuming that it will happen. But, if it was to happen, then Mick in choosing Finn and Campbell would have chosen very well. Much better than (e.g.) the Time lineup who were excellent players but lacked a bit in the songwriting chops area.

Also, it could possibly (not an assumption, just a possibility) that Mick would like to record another album but that he has to talk Stevie into it. Possibly over time.

Plus, if they do in fact make new music and record again etc, and the remaining members of the Rumours5 put out new stuff, why didn't they do it before LB left? LB was never a hindrance to the band putting out new material, on the contrary he ADVOCATED vociferously for it. The stick in the mud, the fly in the ointment to new music was STEVIE. NOT Lindsey.

The focus at the moment was the tour, not the recording. They recorded Buckingham McVie, which is a FM album in all but name.

So if they start making new music NOW, without Lindsey, and Stevie is all onboard about it, what does that tell you? She had just as much opportunity and support to do new music when LB was still there. She chose not to do it. She was adamant about not doing it. Then Lindsey is out, and suddenly she has this magical inspiration to do new music. What does that tell you? She had no desire and made no effort whatsoever to do new music with HIM. All the bs about "the music business" is revealed for what it is. It becomes very, very clear that she withheld her participation, which totally eliminated the chance for growth of the band, because of her personal feelings about him.

We know that Stevie doesn't want to spend a year in a studio recording an album, and that she doesn't want Lindsey producing her music. There isn't just one reason why she didn't want to record the previous FM album. A lot of the argument here appears to be trying to prove that she's lying based on an assumption of there only being one reason why she didn't record.

If Lindsey is no longer around, then that's one factor different which may help change her mind. For her to want to record again, assuming new songs, then she'd want to write again. Oh, she's going to be on tour with Campbell who she has written with before. And it would probably have to be much less time in the studio. Oh, she's going to be on tour with Neil Finn who recorded an album in a month of Fridays. All recording streamed live on youtube (look up 'Neil Finn The Infinity Sessions'. So, there is at least the possibility that

Furthermore, reliable sources (people around the band who for obvious reasons don't want their names put out in public-- they still have to work) have indicated that Stevie (in addition to having refused to record with the band since 2003) then gave an ultimatum in which she refused to tour again if LB was still there.

There are such claims, but I don't consider unnamed sources reliable. In other contexts they have certainly proved to be unreliable often in the past. And, an important point is when any such ultimatum, if it happened, was given. As we know that negotiations on the tour broke down. So, unless the ultimatum happened well before the negotiations and they were not in good faith, I'm wondering what the ultimatum mean. If the ultimatum occurred after the touring discussion bust-up, then that would fit in with the descriptions of how things happened, and not be an ultimatum coming out of the blue and being the sole cause of the split.

The hypocrisy of them saying "well we're a band and when everyone is on the same page except one person, we have to cut that one person loose" is beyond words. Everyone was on the same page for making a new album except Stevie-- so by their rule, she should have been cut loose. But she wasn't. In fact the record that the other 4 all did together couldn't even get released as FM because of her.

Yes, but we're talking about now. It's not long since the album, but now we're talking about the tour. And, do we know that Stevie blocked the album being attributed to Fleetwood Mac? If so, how? Let me guess - I will be told that I should have searched for evidence further, and there'll only be speculation.

If you can't see the bias in all this behavior, it's because you don't want to. I've been a huge Stevie fan since I was 15 (back in the 70s) so I get how difficult it is to see your idol fall. Or maybe you're a new fan and don't know all the band history. But this action on her part is in line with so much of their historical dynamic. And shame on the rest of them for putting up with it. Why would they?? MONEY. So now we know business trumps all.

I can see the behaviour, but am not extrapolating from it like others. Yes, we know that Stevie doesn't like working with Lindsey. However, we also know that she has many times held her nose and gone out on tour with him.

If they wanted 'MONEY' they would have found some way to go out with Lindsey, as a tour with Lindsey would make more money. Unless they believe that a tour with Lindsey wouldn't happen, then them going out without Lindsey would be a very bad choice.

There seems to be a number of people here on this board who seem to want to put all the blame for the split on one side, and attribute it to evil motives such as $$$MONEY$$$. Rather than the more prosaic reasons of a band part splitting because the members didn't want to work together again, caused by internal friction. Which is a frequent occurrence in the lifetime of bands.

And BTW, of course there is speculation here-- IT IS A FAN BOARD. This is not an industry news site; it's a place for fans to come together and talk, speculate, wonder, complain, etc. Never ceases to amaze me that people don't understand wtf a fan board is or what it's for. If you want hard news, go to a hard news site FFS.

Yes, but there is a difference between speculation, and making conclusions. The latter is happening far too often here based on faulty logic, excessive weight being put on extreme interpretations of what has been said, etc. I have nothing against speculation. Just make sure that you know what is speculation and don't start believing it until the actual evidence, not extrapolations of it, is sufficient.

Originally Posted by Angel75

Well said ....and yes agreed MONEY trumped at the end of the day

And here's an example of speculation being presented as a conclusion.

[bombaysaffires]

and......your point is, what, exactly?

[Angel75]

Originally Posted by Ench

And here's an example of speculation being presented as a conclusion.

How so?

If you choose to believe that there were tour date disagreements or conflict between SnL that couldn't be resolved you come to the point that they can not agree...so your two options are continue and tour or disband.

Now clearly everyone including Mick have solo or business endeavours that can continue with that will keep them financially afloat personally and if they are touring solo they get their tour and audience fix outside of FM.

So the choice was made to continue to tour as FM without Lindsey based on the financial benefits they would reap foremost.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

and......your point is, what, exactly?

As per my post above. If there are any bits you don't understand, then please ask.

Because otherwise: my point is that I have detailed where I disagree with you and given supporting arguments.

Originally Posted by Angel75

How so?

If you choose to believe that there were tour date disagreements or conflict between SnL that couldn't be resolved you come to the point that they can not agree...so your two options are continue and tour or disband.

Now clearly everyone including Mick have solo or business endeavours that can continue with that will keep them financially afloat personally and if they are touring solo they get their tour and audience fix outside of FM.

So the choice was made to continue to tour as FM without Lindsey based on the financial benefits they would reap foremost.

You are presenting one possibility as the only possibility. Other potential factors include: wanting to put on the best show for the audience, too many members of the band not being prepared to work with Lindsey any more due to personal friction (which could easily be Lindsey's fault as well BTW), not believing that Lindsey would actually ever tour or would be unreliable (as in 1987), and an infinite number of other possibilities.

I'm not saying that money is not a factor, clearly it is for professional musicians. But, to simply state a simple 'money trumped at the end of the day' is a woefully premature conclusion with no indications of any uncertainty. It's also attributing base motivations to one side.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by Ench

As per my post above. If there are any bits you don't understand, then please ask.

Because otherwise: my point is that I have detailed where I disagree with you and given supporting arguments.

Great. Good for you!

You've done your bit you've given your point of view and your reasons for it.

So have others.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they want.

Beating people over the head will not make them suddenly agree with you. That seems to be what you want.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

Great. Good for you!

You've done your bit you've given your point of view and your reasons for it.

So have others.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they want.

Beating people over the head will not make them suddenly agree with you. That seems to be what you want.

Engaging in reasoned debate is not 'beating them over the head'.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, then that is your choice. But, there is nothing wrong in answering people's posts with reasoned debate. And, that is what I believe that I have done.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by Ench

Engaging in reasoned debate is not 'beating them over the head'.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, then that is your choice. But, there is nothing wrong in answering people's posts with reasoned debate. And, that is what I believe that I have done.

You've heard everyone's "evidence". You don't believe it. That's fine. To continue to come on here demanding people give you evidence until YOU are satisfied is arrogant and pointless. You are not the judge and jury. You're one person. You've made it very clear that you interpret the "evidence" such as it is in one particular way. Good for you. You should feel satisfied that you are the most logical person who has made the correct interpretation of everything. I see no point in your babbling on demanding everyone lay out their "evidence" for you to make grand determinations about.

Again, we get it. You think things happened in one particular way. Fantastic.

People will disagree with you. They do not have to "justify" anything to you.

You, like Thomas Markle, should be ignored. Don't feed the trolls, people.

[button-lip]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

You've heard everyone's "evidence". You don't believe it. That's fine. To continue to come on here demanding people give you evidence until YOU are satisfied is arrogant and pointless. You are not the judge and jury. You're one person. You've made it very clear that you interpret the "evidence" such as it is in one particular way. Good for you. You should feel satisfied that you are the most logical person who has made the correct interpretation of everything. I see no point in your babbling on demanding everyone lay out their "evidence" for you to make grand determinations about.

Again, we get it. You think things happened in one particular way. Fantastic.

People will disagree with you. They do not have to "justify" anything to you.

You, like Thomas Markle, should be ignored. Don't feed the trolls, people.

No matter how much evidence we present, some people have already chosen to believe Lindsey chose to leave, when practically Mick have already admitted they fired him "because they weren't happy".

Don't feed the trolls. They will eventually go away.... like Stevie's dignity.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Sorry if I sounded harsh, but the last thread sparked people all over Facebook talking about how FM was going to tour with Journey, as if "industry insiders" had talked about it and it seriously might happen!

I'm using your words to point out one amazing fact. So many ex Ledgies like to claim this site is dead but when people hear a rumour about this band, this site is usually the first place one goes to verify if said information is fact or fiction. And The Ledge is also the place where people read such fiction and spread it thru FB as if it were fact. This proves we are still very much an influential group of people in the Fleetwood Mac community.

[elle]

Originally Posted by vivfox

I'm using your words to point out one amazing fact. So many ex Ledgies like to claim this site is dead but when people hear a rumour about this band, this site is usually the first place one goes to verify if said information is fact or fiction. And The Ledge is also the place where people read such fiction and spread it thru FB as if it were fact. This proves we are still very much an influential group of people in the Fleetwood Mac community.

ha, i just said something similar recently in another thread. it's interesting this still seems to be happening.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by button-lip

No matter how much evidence we present, some people have already chosen to believe Lindsey chose to leave, when practically Mick have already admitted they fired him "because they weren't happy".

Don't feed the trolls. They will eventually go away.... like Stevie's dignity.

Where did Mick ever say that Lindsey chose to leave the band? No one associated with the band has ever said that. The band has continued to say that for a host of reasons (including disagreements over touring schedules and an unhappy "work" environment), Mick decided to part ways with Lindsey.