Stevies Phone Lecture to Lindsey

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by elle

the way she describes it, you'd think LB really didn't wanna tour with the Mac or work with her anymore, but luckily her spilling it all out made him want to go on tour - he finally saw the reason and it was that cleansing for him.

It's never sounded that way to me, she's never once said LB felt that way or that she thought he felt that way.

now think back, who did want to work together / tour FM, and who didn't, for several years now?

One of the few things Stevie Nicks has always been consistent in and believes with pretty much every fiber of her being is that you "never break up your band"... as she says, she ALWAYS comes back to FM - it's not an "if", it's a "when"...

also do you really think Stevie Nicks keeps stuff bottled in? really? maybe that's new development - i only followed the Mac for the last few years, but during that time it seem that woman can never stop talking. (same as Mick, in fact.) somehow, i can't believe that she never said all this stuff before.

Yes, I think she has and does and can keep things in - especially when it comes to Lindsey - because as she pointed out in her Q&A's for IYD last year - you don't want to hurt the feelings of people you love and care about. Also, just because you know how to push someone's buttons, does not mean you go out of your way to do so, especially if you really just don't want to deal with the explosion it's going to create. She is the peacekeeper, the keeper of peace. Being chatty and social is much easier than spilling your guts and confronting issues.

[michelej1]

I don't see her as the Peacekeeper and I doubt that Lindsey does. While I think the Peacekeeper song can be applied to their relationship, I don't think he cast her in the Peackeeper role. I think the Peacekeeper was an outside force called upon to wield its palliative powers on their tumultuous relationship.

Yes, she sees herself as holding things together to get through a tour or an album, like right after they joined FM. She talks about how she did this. Also, it's very clear that she's constantly thinking of what Lindsey's going to say or do about something and she assumes, rightly or wrongly, that what he's going to say or do will be combative. I remember they were doing an interview together for The Dance and she said something like she would have called him before, but he would have just hung up on her and he said, well no. Maybe he would have hung up. Or maybe they would have just talked. I think she does hold back sometimes or does walk away in anger, turn on her platform boot -- like in that old interview she said they would argue and she would go away for the night and think of all the things she could say to him in response and then come back the next day and say them. But I think that the times she holds back are equal or lesser in number to the times when she just fans their tumultuous flame.

I don't think even she really sees herself as the soothing influence in their lives. I believe she thinks she's one of the twisted two in their tornado.

As for the 90 minute talk, I doubt she said anything to him that she hasn't said to him before. Many times. But it felt cathartic to her and that's all that really matters. If it felt like a release and a fresh start and undid some of the damage that I guess still lingered long after the SYW tour had ended, then good.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't see her as the Peacekeeper and I doubt that Lindsey does. While I think the Peacekeeper song can be applied to their relationship, I don't think he cast her in the Peackeeper role. I think the Peacekeeper was an outside force called upon to wield its palliative powers on their tumultuous relationship.

Michele

I think she can be the peacekeeper; that doesn't necessarily mean she always keeps the peace. But, it reminds me of something I read recently - LB screamed at a roadie or stagehand on the BN tour and Stevie went over to him and apologized for Lindsey, trying to smooth things over. That's the kind of peace I think she's talking about, not between her and him but between him and other people. Or keeping the peace sometimes is just biting your tongue when you want to say something.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

I think she can be the peacekeeper; that doesn't necessarily mean she always keeps the peace.

She sees herself as everything. But regarding lyrics that may not have been raised in this thread, but may have come up in others, do you think Lindsey called her the Peacekeeper, in the song?

I actually think he's sees himself as the Peacekeeper, by fighting (as the U.S. might call itself a peacekeeper by killing and using violence to end violence ultimately) and he thinks love is the sweet surprise of that fight, if you keep going forward against obstacles and friction, even if you want to quit. In that sense, I think he's the peacekeeper and the protagonist in Shut Us Down, the one saying fight. Don't give up, even if the goal seems elusive and, sometimes, not worthwhile.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But regarding lyrics that may not have been raised in this thread, but may have come up in others, do you think Lindsey called her the Peacekeeper, in the song?

I actually think he's sees himself as the Peacekeeper, by fighting (as the U.S. might call itself a peacekeeper by killing and using violence to end violence ultimately) and he thinks love is the sweet surprise of that fight, if you keep going forward against obstacles and friction, even if you want to quit. In that sense, I think he's the peacekeeper and the protagonist in Shut Us Down, the one saying fight. Don't give up, even if the goal seems elusive and, sometimes, not worthwhile.

Michele

I don't really know (as do none of us), but for the sake of lyric speculation, I think it's possible Lindsey was referring to her in Peacekeeper. I also think its significant she used basically the same phrase in FFG (about LB), when she referred to herself "High priestess...she's the keeper of the peace in this."

I don't see Peacekeeper as a political statement at all, even though they played that up, it was a convenient turn of events that helped to spin it as social relevance, just as he did with Treason.

I think Lindsey is usually the protagonist, but in FFG she was the one who "fought this long and this hard just to make sure you survive"... Unless that's someone else talking...

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

She sees herself as everything. But regarding lyrics that may not have been raised in this thread, but may have come up in others, do you think Lindsey called her the Peacekeeper, in the song?

this is what i always think of first when i hear the song Peacekeeper http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/ . i realized after reading some of the explanations, that LB, as a person who lived most of his life in the US, may have not meant that kind of peacekeeper.

my second thought, after reading some additional explanations from people who said he may have meant this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper - which would go well with the songs lyrics.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

I don't see Peacekeeper as a political statement at all, even though they played that up, it was a convenient turn of events that helped to spin it as social relevance, just as he did with Treason.

I don't see it as convenient as an alibi. I think Lindsey is deliberately using war references as analogies in his lyrics. They aren't accidental or coincidental, but conscience comparisons.

But no, I don't think he called her a peacekeeper. I think he sees himself as the peacekeeper and the troublemaker and that the two roles may seem contradictory on the surface, but dropping a missile leads to peace and I think he sees himself -- or did at the time -- as the one soldiering on against the current -- even though he didn't have one allie in that band, according to what he said in his car.

No doubt Stevie might think of herself as some kind of peacekeeper, but I don't think he ever saw her as someone who wasn't causing conflict. In fact, even when she bites her tongue instead of speaking up, I think he sees that as a type of warmongering.

I mean, I think of the first years when she said that in 1975 everyone was fighting and threatening to leave the band and she wasn't saying anything. So, she saw herself as the least troublesome of the five, but she also says that she couldn't be Lindsey's "old lady." She couldn't take his side in the band debates. Because he wanted to cry on her shoulder about everyone hassling him to get the guitar part right and she couldn't comfort him because as a band member SHE wanted him to get the guitar part right too.
And I can see that really getting to him. She saw herself as Swiss, but in her silence, in not taking his side against the others, I think he saw her as the enemy. And maybe what he missed is not their love life together, but that since of unity they had. Like Javier said that they would always take each other's side against the others in Fritz and they didn't do that in FM.

They formed new alliances.

Michele

[redbird]

Regardless of if Lindsey saw her as the peacekeeper that inspired his song, she apparently had things she wanted to get off her chest and she did and it seemed to have helped at least her, which helps the big picture. People are multifaceted, and usually have internally conflicting desires, sometimes you bite your tongue only to find later on that biting your tongue before makes you all the more angry later on and things come out in all the wrong, unproductive ways. Personally that's all I was trying to say. Stevie most certainly did not refrain from stirring up her share of tensions but that doesn't mean her personality make-up doesn't include don't-rock-the-boat tendencies. FWIW many women have that problem that they're socialized not to upset the apple cart, only to find that it's too repressive for them and they end up acting out against it, sometimes productively and sometimes not.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't see it as convenient as an alibi. I think Lindsey is deliberately using war references as analogies in his lyrics. They aren't accidental or coincidental, but conscience comparisons.

I didn't mean it as he thought he needed an alibi. He might think that. Lol. But, I agree it could also be intentional analogies.

But no, I don't think he called her a peacekeeper. I think he sees himself as the peacekeeper and the troublemaker and that the two roles may seem contradictory on the surface, but dropping a missile leads to peace and I think he sees himself -- or did at the time -- as the one soldiering on against the current -- even though he didn't have one allie in that band, according to what he said in his car.

No doubt Stevie might think of herself as some kind of peacekeeper, but I don't think he ever saw her as someone who wasn't causing conflict. In fact, even when she bites her tongue instead of speaking up, I think he sees that as a type of warmongering.

I mean, I think of the first years when she said that in 1975 everyone was fighting and threatening to leave the band and she wasn't saying anything. So, she saw herself as the least troublesome of the five, but she also says that she couldn't be Lindsey's "old lady." She couldn't take his side in the band debates. Because he wanted to cry on her shoulder about everyone hassling him to get the guitar part right and she couldn't comfort him because as a band member SHE wanted him to get the guitar part right too.
And I can see that really getting to him. She saw herself as Swiss, but in her silence, in not taking his side against the others, I think he saw her as the enemy. And maybe what he missed is not their love life together, but that since of unity they had. Like Javier said that they would always take each other's side against the others in Fritz and they didn't do that in FM.

They formed new alliances.

Michele

Yeah, they did. Alliances do change though. Treaties are signed. Peace talks are held.

Remember when the guitars were out of tune on the SYW tour? Stevie was trying to help lighten the moment because you know LB was really ticked, even though to his credit he did the push ups & sit ups. There's also a great photo of him glaring, arms crossed while Stevie tries to smooth his feathers.

I call that peace keeping.

I don't know, I just would never classify him that way. He always seems to be the one willing to stir something up in fact, not afraid to steamroll in order to accomplish the vision. "You're not like other people, you do what you want to."

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by redbird

Regardless of if Lindsey saw her as the peacekeeper that inspired his song,

Yes, I wasn't addressing your posts in asking about Peacekeeper, the song, because Lindsey's perspective then and now and Stevie's comments regarding the 90 minute phone conversation are two different animals.

I don't even know if the song itself (as opposed to the general concept of peaceful relations) was referenced in this thread, but it was discussed somewhere and I was prompted to explore further here.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

I call that peace keeping.

I don't know, I just would never classify him that way. He always seems to be the one willing to stir something up in fact, not afraid to steamroll in order to accomplish the vision. "You're not like other people, you do what you want to."

Yes, I wasn't talking about a kumbaya kind of peace and I don't think the song is talking about that kind of peace either, which is why it uses the war metaphor. I think it envisions a peace through struggle and fight and force or forcefulness. I mean an ironic version of peace.

As far as whether she calms any feathers, I don't think so. I see Mick doing that more. But yes, she thinks she does, definitely. I mean even 20 years ago she was talking about how she fought so hard to keep the band together when she could have left and pursued a solo career. So, yes, I know she thinks she's a peacekeeper.

What I think more of is a kind of situation in DR. Now, she didn't think she was doing anything divisive to Lindsey in that scene with Karen, but he thought she was. When she told him that Karen was dead honest, she probably thought she was trying to talk him down after he said that people were pointing fingers at them, but I think he saw her as using her people to keep a road block between them. And I think he still sees her that way today. I don't think she has a calming effect on him at all. I think he thinks he's trying to keep things together. He and Mick.

But she thinks, yes totally she thinks she's peace queen ... I mean even the way she handled Sheryl Crow, you could see she thought she was mollifying Lindsey. I mean the way she introduced the idea of Sheryl in the first place was designed to reduce frictionand then in the end after it was all over, she was serving as sort of a mediator between Sheryl and Lindsey in the public spat. But beginning or end, I don't think he thought she was keeping anything together or calm when it came to Sheryl Crow. He thought he was being hassled.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, I wasn't talking about a kumbaya kind of peace and I don't think the song is talking about that kind of peace either, which is why it uses the war metaphor. I think it envisions a peace through struggle and fight and force or forcefulness. I mean an ironic version of peace.

As far as whether she calms any feathers, I don't think so. I see Mick doing that more. But yes, she thinks she does, definitely. I mean even 20 years ago she was talking about how she fought so hard to keep the band together when she could have left and pursued a solo career. So, yes, I know she thinks she's a peacekeeper.

What I think more of is a kind of situation in DR. Now, she didn't think she was doing anything divisive to Lindsey in that scene with Karen, but he thought she was. When she told him that Karen was dead honest, she probably thought she was trying to talk him down after he said that people were pointing fingers at them, but I think he saw her as using her people to keep a road block between them. And I think he still sees her that way today. I don't think she has a calming effect on him at all. I think he thinks he's trying to keep things together. He and Mick.

But she thinks, yes totally she thinks she's peace queen ... I mean even the way she handled Sheryl Crow, you could see she thought she was mollifying Lindsey. I mean the way she introduced the idea of Sheryl in the first place was designed to reduce frictionand then in the end after it was all over, she was serving as sort of a mediator between Sheryl and Lindsey in the public spat. But beginning or end, I don't think he thought she was keeping anything together or calm when it came to Sheryl Crow. He thought he was being hassled.

Michele

We should all be included in the next talk. Then we could explain what we think they were saying or doing and they could tell us what they really thought or meant & try to keep peace with all of us.

Usually the one who arms the bomb also knows how to defuse it.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Usually the one who arms the bomb also knows how to defuse it.

He thinks the finished product defuses. If you get something great out of the whole thing, then it's worth it. I mean, he certainly thinks that about Tusk. I don't know what his opinion on SYW is. But that's how I interpret the love is the sweet surprise line. You battle and struggle and something great is born out of it.

I see the message of Peacekeeper as very similar to SUD.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

my second thought, after reading some additional explanations from people who said he may have meant this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper - which would go well with the songs lyrics.

Certainly in keeping with take no prisoners only kill. Michele

[nicole21290]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

I don't really know (as do none of us), but for the sake of lyric speculation, I think it's possible Lindsey was referring to her in Peacekeeper. I also think its significant she used basically the same phrase in FFG (about LB), when she referred to herself "High priestess...she's the keeper of the peace in this."

I don't see Peacekeeper as a political statement at all, even though they played that up, it was a convenient turn of events that helped to spin it as social relevance, just as he did with Treason.

I think Lindsey is usually the protagonist, but in FFG she was the one who "fought this long and this hard just to make sure you survive"... Unless that's someone else talking...

So far as Peacekeeper goes, Lindsey also agrees that it's also relational as well as political. I always found this quote on it quite interesting so far as that goes:

"I wrote the song about two and a half years ago. It was, in a very ironic way, looking at the kind of thinking that is matter-of-fact and desensitized towards certain actions that go on in the world, and the kind of blankness and conformity that goes along with that. And then trying to look at what that does for a married couple trying to work out their problems. How does it affect them?" (May, 2003)

Ah, yes, regarding 'surviving' she certainly believes she is the one trying to help him survive. As she said in one interview about Fall From Grace:

"No, that song's about Lindsey. That's after The Dance. I wrote that in 1998 so that's right, 1998, 1999, that's right after The Dance."
So he still knows the buttons to push?
"Oh yeah, definitely. And he tries not to push them too much now because I really don't like it. And I don't want to be angry with him now. But he knows how to get to me, absolutely."
And so in order to-
"But I'm only saving him in that song. I'm saying... [insert rambling on trying to remember the lyrics]... But it basically says, you know, 'I, I, as angry as I am at you, I'm really only trying to help you'. So at the end, when it comes to the end, it basically turns the whole thing around. Almost like he does on Never Going Back Again when he says, you know, 'I'm never going back again blah blah blah blah' but then he says 'but come around and see me again.' And Fall From Grace is kind of like that."

-

Slow down, baby
If you want to save me
It takes time