The Ledge

Go Back   The Ledge > Main Forums > Chit Chat
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar


Make the Ads Go Away! Click here.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #106  
Old 10-06-2008, 05:32 PM
ajmccarrell ajmccarrell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by strandinthewind View Post
I think McCain is correct is questioning anyone'sw association with a known terrorist. My beef if that it is very clear there is no story there. It is a red herring. McCain knows this, but he lies about the association by making innuendos that are baseless. That to me supports your statement "What a sad old man that he cannot win by selling himself and his ideas to the American people so he now has only this left to try and salvage his campaign."

Also, as predicted:

McCain, Obama camps trade barbs on negative ads

By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer

The McCain and Obama presidential campaigns traded accusations of mudslinging Monday in the wake of new ads dredging up infamous events from 20, 30, even 40 years ago.

Nancy Pfotenhauer, an adviser to the McCain campaign, said it's "absolutely essential" that Americans hear not only about his plans for the future but also "about the decision they have to make about these two individuals." She said she thought that commercials that raise new questions about Obama's associations "have struck a nerve" with the Democrat.

Obama's communications director, Robert Gibbs, countered that the new McCain offensive — including GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's allegation that Obama "pals around with terrorists" is happening because Republicans want to talk about something other than the struggling economy.

Gibbs, who appeared with Pfotenhauer on ABC's "Good Morning America" Monday, charged that the McCain campaign is resorting to "a despicable smear campaign."

Democrats on Sunday had denounced Palin's charge and warned that it would trigger reexaminations of McCain's past. Sure enough, Obama's campaign released a Web video and a letter about McCain's role in the Keating Five scandal from the early 1990s.

McCain "does not want to play guilt-by-association, or this thing could blow up in his face," Democratic strategist Paul Begala said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The names being bandied about — Bill Ayers and Charles Keating — are unfamiliar to millions of Americans, and their wrongdoings occurred decades ago. But political operatives dredged them up over the weekend, and they could play a prominent role in the campaign's final month.

Palin, the Alaska governor, defended her earlier comments about Obama and Ayers, in which she said the Democratic nominee is "palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."

Ayers was a founder of the violent Weather Underground group during the Vietnam era. Its members were blamed for several bombings when Obama was a child. Obama has denounced Ayers' radical views and activities.

The two men live in the same Chicago neighborhood and once worked on the same charity board. Ayers hosted a small meet-the-candidate event for Obama in 1995, early in his political career. Obama strategist David Axelrod has said the two men are "friendly."

On Sunday, Palin told reporters in California that her comments were about "an association that has been known but hasn't been talked about. I think it's fair to talk about where Barack Obama kicked off his political career, in the guy's living room."

In fact, Obama was questioned about Ayers during a prime-time Democratic debate against Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton before April's Pennsylvania primary.

"The heels are on, the gloves are off," Palin said of her campaign strategy.

Obama, speaking Sunday to thousands at an outdoor event in Asheville, N.C., fired back. He said McCain and his aides "are gambling that he can distract you with smears rather than talk to you about substance."

He described the criticisms as "Swiftboat-style attacks on me," a reference to the unsubstantiated allegations about 2004 Democratic nominee John Kerry's military record in Vietnam.

Other Democrats rushed to Obama's defense. Veteran party activist Hillary Rosen, on CNN's "Late Edition," said, "If they throw mud like that, then you go back to Charles Keating, you go back to Sarah Palin's investigation." She was referring to inquiries into the firing of Alaska's top police official.

"You know, I just don't think that John McCain wants to take this nuclear strategy," Rosen said.

Just months into his Senate career, in the late 1980s, McCain made what he has called "the worst mistake of my life." He participated in two meetings with banking regulators on behalf of Keating, a friend, campaign contributor and savings and loan owner who was later convicted of securities fraud.

The Senate ethics committee investigated five senators relationships with Keating. The panel cited McCain for a lesser role than the others, but faulted his "poor judgment."

Obama's new Web video, being e-mailed to millions of his supporters, summarizes a 13-minute Web "documentary" that the campaign plans to distribute Monday.

Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said in a statement, "McCain's Keating history is relevant and voters deserve to know the facts."

On Sunday, Obama also unveiled a TV ad on the economy that describes McCain was "erratic in a crisis." Some see that as a reminder of McCain's age, 72.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/...idates_attacks

Here is the Obama schtick:

The current economic crisis demands that we understand John McCain's attitudes about economic oversight and corporate influence in federal regulation. Nothing illustrates the danger of his approach more clearly than his central role in the savings and loan scandal of the late '80s and early '90s.

John McCain was accused of improperly aiding his political patron, Charles Keating, chairman of the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association. The bipartisan Senate Ethics Committee launched investigations and formally reprimanded Senator McCain for his role in the scandal -- the first such Senator to receive a major party nomination for president.

At the heart of the scandal was Keating's Lincoln Savings and Loan Association, which took advantage of deregulation in the 1980s to make risky investments with its depositors' money. McCain intervened on behalf of Charles Keating with federal regulators tasked with preventing banking fraud, and championed legislation to delay regulation of the savings and loan industry -- actions that allowed Keating to continue his fraud at an incredible cost to taxpayers.

When the savings and loan industry collapsed, Keating's failed company put taxpayers on the hook for $3.4 billion and more than 20,000 Americans lost their savings. John McCain was reprimanded by the bipartisan Senate Ethics Committee, but the ultimate cost of the crisis to American taxpayers reached more than $120 billion.

The Keating scandal is eerily similar to today's credit crisis, where a lack of regulation and cozy relationships between the financial industry and Congress has allowed banks to make risky loans and profit by bending the rules. And in both cases, John McCain's judgment and values have placed him on the wrong side of history.

HomeFull Documentary Available at 12:00 PM Eastern

Active content removed Active content removed Top News
Revisiting McCain’s Keating 5 history
Seattle Times - Sept. 4, 2008
Keating 5 ring a bell?
Los Angeles Times - Sept 25, 2008
McCain’s recent history
Sioux Falls Argus Leader - Sept. 15, 2008
Did McCain Learn From the S&L Crisis?
The Washington Independent - Sept. 29, 2008
John McCain’s Presidential Campaign and the Keating 5: A Fresh Look at a Dead Scandal
American Chronicle - Sept. 26, 2008
McCain’s role in S&L collapse rouses bitter memories
Orange Country Register - Sept, 26, 2008
The Keating Five is more relevant now than ever
The Daily Voice - Sept. 23, 2008
Ignoring Keating
Media Matters - Sept. 26, 2008
John McCain & The Ghost of Keating Five
The Nation - Sept. 17, 2008
Remember the S&L Bailout? John McCain Hopes You Don’t
Mother Jones
Research & Downloads (permalink)
The ABCs of John McCain, Charles Keating & The Savings & Loan (S&L) Crisis
Downloads
The ABCs of John McCain, Charles Keating & The Savings & Loan (S&L) Crisis

John McCain’s Letter on behalf of Keating to James Baker, White House Chief of Staff

John McCain’s First Letter on behalf of Keating to Edwin Gray, banking regulator

John McCain’s Second Letter on behalf of Keating to Edwin Gray, banking regulator

John McCain’s Third Letter on behalf of Keating to Edwin Gray, banking regulator

John McCain’s Letter on behalf of Keating to Donald Regan, Secretary of Treasury

John McCain with Charles Keating III (The Phoenix Gazette - September 12, 1993)
During S&L Crisis, 747 Savings & Loans Banks Failed, Costing US Taxpayers $124 Billion; Deregulation Allowed Riskier Investments By S&Ls, Leading To Widespread Collapses And Fraud. In the 1980’s and early 1990’s the US economy was badly shaken by the failure of 747 savings and loan (S&L) institutions that had to be taken over and bailed out by the federal government. In total, the failures cost taxpayers $124 billion. One of the main causes for the epidemic of failures was the unregulated expansion of S&L’s, which had traditionally only dealt with home loans, into more exotic and riskier investments. When many of those investments failed, the institutions collapsed. [Chicago Tribune, 7/3/98, Los Angeles Times, 9/17/08]

S&L’s Risky Investments With Federally-Insured Money Led To Call For More Regulation. In the early 1980’s, Charles Keating’s American Continental Corporation purchased a California S&L named Lincoln. At that time, S&Ls like Lincoln were able to go beyond their traditional purpose of offering home loans and engage in riskier forms of investment. Since the deposits of S&Ls were insured by the federal government, regulators began to take notice of the investments being made by Keating and at other S&Ls. The Federal Home Loan Band Board (FHLLB), which had regulatory authority over the S&Ls, began to worry about the risks of this trend, and proposed a “direct investment” regulation to limit the money S&Ls could direct to these riskier investments. [Senate Ethics Committee Keating Five Investigation, 1990]

At Keating’s Request, McCain Wrote 5 Letters, Supported Bill To Forestall Direct Investment Rule. Keating was unhappy with the direct investment rule and began actively lobbying against it. Senate Ethics Committee Special Counsel Robert Bennett explained during the 1990 Keating Five hearings that John McCain wrote at least five letters to regulators, Treasury and White House officials to argue against these proposed restrictions on risky investments by S&Ls. Bennett said that “In 1984 and ‘85, then Congressman McCain wrote several letters to Chairman [Edwin] Gray [of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board] and White House officials urging them to postpone promulgation of the direct investment rule… There is evidence that Senator McCain did so at the urging of Mr. Keating or other representatives of Lincoln.” McCain’s work for Keating also included signing onto a bill to delay the direct investment rule in 1984 [Senate Ethics Committee Keating Five Investigation, 1990; HCONRES 363, 98th Congress]

With New Regulations In Place, Officials Began Investigation That Found That Keating’s Lincoln S&L Had Operated As Massive Fraud. After the direct investment rule was enacted the Federal Home Loan Bank Board began a more vigorous investigation into Lincoln’s practices, beginning to uncover a vast web of fraud and accounting irregularities designed to embezzle money to Keating and his family and friends. Top regulator William Black later said that Lincoln “operated like a Ponzi scheme, or financial pyramid dependent on an ever-increasing churning of assets.” Black said, “Its parent, Keating's American Continental Corp., was no more than a shell that siphoned dividends from Lincoln and distributed them through inflated salaries to Keating, his family members and associates.” [Senate Ethics Committee Keating Five Investigation, 1990; Associated Press, 12/5/90]

Keating Asked McCain And Other Senators To Whom He Had Contributed To Intervene With Regulators. In the most well-known episode of the scandal, Charles Keating asked five U.S. Senators including McCain to intervene with regulators from the Federal Home Loan Bank Board on his behalf. The Senators attended two meetings with the regulators in 1987. Reports of the meetings and the fact that Keating had contributed heavily to those Senators led to an investigation by the Senate Ethics Committee in 1990 into what became known as Keating Five scandal. [Senate Ethics Committee Keating Five Investigation, 1990; Chicago Tribune, 6/14/90; Los Angeles Times, 5/30/89]

Keating Admitted He Was Trying To Buy Influence. Keating was asked if his contributions bought him influence with the Senators, to which Keating replied, “I want to say in the most forceful way I can, I certainly hope so.” [Los Angeles Times, 5/30/89]

Ethics Committee Special Counsel Said McCain Had Closest Relationship to Keating. Robert Bennett, the Special Counsel for the Senate Ethics Committee said during the 1990 hearings: “of the five senators here before you, Senator McCain had the closest personal friendship with Charles Keating. Their friendship predated Senator McCain's political career. Senator McCain also was the only one who received personal as well political benefits from Charles Keating.” [Senate Ethics Committee Hearing into the Keating Five]

McCain Received $166,000 In Campaign Contributions from Charles Keating and his Associates. “Together with friends and associates, Keating contributed $56,000 to McCain's first House race, another $56,000 to the second and $54,000 to his 1986 Senate campaign,” contributions that were key to early success as a politician. [New York Times, 5/25/97]

McCain Used Keating’s Private Planes on Nine Occasions. “From August 1984 to August 1986, Sen. John McCain and his family flew across the country and to the Bahamas on at least nine occasions at Charles H Keating Jr.'s expense,” often to stay at the Keatings’ exclusive Cat Cay getaway. [Arizona Republic, 10/8/89]

McCain Had Direct Financial Ties To Keating. Keating brought in McCain’s wife and father-in-law as the largest investors in an Arizona shopping center investment. Fountain Square Shopping Center was a no-risk investment that virtually guaranteed a 25% return and a “significant tax write-off” through a tax shelter technique available to the wealthy that was soon outlawed. When reporters first questioned the deal, McCain said to reporters “It’s up to you to find that out, kids.” [Arizona Republic, 10/8/89]

McCain Originally Denied Reports of Connection. “When the story broke, McCain did nothing to help himself. ‘You're a liar,’ McCain said” when asked about the investments. He challenged reporters saying, ‘It's up to you to find that out, kids.’” [Arizona Republic, 3/1/2007]

McCain Rebuked By Senate Ethics Committee For Exercising “Poor Judgment.” In 1990, the bipartisan (three members of each party) Senate Ethics Committee rebuked McCain “for exercising ‘poor judgment’ for intervening with the federal regulators on behalf of Keating.” [Arizona Republic, 3/1/2007]

Keating’s S&L Was Declared Insolvent; $3.4 Billion Bailout Most Expensive in Meltdown. Federal regulators declared Lincoln Savings and Loan insolvent. It ended up costing taxpayers $3.4 billion to clean up the mess and cover federally-insured deposits at Lincoln, making it the most expensive failure in the entire S&L meltdown. [Washington Post, 11/29/92; New York Times, 2/21/08]

Keating Also Bilked 23,000 Investors – Many Elderly – With Junk Bonds. As his deeds unraveled under the scrutiny of regulators and civil and criminal court cases, it became clear that he had sold worthless junk bonds to 23,000 investors, many of them elderly retirees who had thought their investments were insured and lost their lost savings to Keating’s crimes. [Associated Press, 2/23/08]

Keating Was Found Guilty of 73 Counts of Fraud, Lost Two Criminal And One Civil Case. “a federal jury convicted him of 73 counts of wire and bankruptcy fraud in the collapse of American Continental and Lincoln,” a keystone of the Savings & Loan scandal as Keating “looted” the bank. Keating was also found guilty in civil court and lost a massive class action suit by investors he bilked. [Arizona Republic, 3/1/2007; Associated Press, 4/7/99]

Learn MoreTop News
Revisiting McCain’s Keating 5 history
Seattle Times - Sept. 4, 2008

Keating 5 ring a bell?
Los Angeles Times - Sept 25, 2008

McCain’s recent history
Sioux Falls Argue Leader - Sept. 15, 2008

http://www.keatingeconomics.com/
Glad you posted this! John Glenn, another Keating 5 member is one of Obama's advisors! LOL! Yet ANOTHER example of Obama and his "judgement" in friends. If he really has a problem with McCain and Keating, he should immediately denounce John Glenn too. Unfortunately, he won't because he doesn't have the character.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 10-06-2008, 05:34 PM
ashton ashton is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
Default

I found the debate to be endlessly amusing. Poor Palin came across as though she was trying out for Legally Blonde III, Elle Woods Runs for VP. The winking just cracked me up but the whole package was just too much.

Katherine Harris always made me laugh for being such an air-headed loon, but Palin may just turn out to be my favorite of them all. They should get a daytime TV show together when this is all over.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 10-06-2008, 05:35 PM
ajmccarrell ajmccarrell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by strandinthewind View Post
Here are some of her extreme and myopic views:

1. No right to choose for a woman who has been brutually raped or impregnanted by her father or brother.

2. Allowing the p0lice to make a woman's insurance company pay for her rape kit.

3. Not really caring to learn anything about our political system, but wanting to lead the country and reform Washington a la Doris Day in a smart Dior outfit taking on the mean railroad in "It Happened to Jane."

4. Thinking that she knows how to deal with Russia (the cold war is over BTW) because some remote part of Russia is next to a remote part of the remotely situated Alaska.

5. Thinking that having a two or so day Eva Peron esq. "Rainbow Tour" in Manhattan qualifies her on foreign policy.

6. Thinking that the Amercian people are so stupid that they will believe unsupported innuendos designed to promote bigotry.

There are others, but these are, at the least, illustrative.

Also -- poor Carter. He is, I think, an honest and good man. I truly like his ideas and manner. He was, however, wholly ineffective as Pres. Maybe his post Presidential experience has made him rich in being effective.

In the end, Gov. Palin has made the obvious choice to place herself as a Washington outsider (which she is) who is coming to town to kick a$$ and take names. Sadly, she has offered no plan to do that. She and McCain instead rely on Gov. Palin's self-described "maverick" status. Note - it is up to her to provide the details As an aside, Gov. Palin once again is myopic here because she is running with a total Wahington insider whose association with the Keating Five makes him the very definition of the type of reform she baselessly touts herself as wanting go against.
The thing about the rape kit is a lie for one, and secondly the Governor does not set medical policy for these sorts of things. The legislature does. Also, again, Obama has John Glenn sitting on his board of advisors. A reminder for those who do not know, the only two members acquitted in the Keating case were both Glenn and McCain. Obama's own advisor is as guilty as Obama claims McCain is. The fact of the matter is that both were cleared. Also, Franklin Raines is one of Obama's economics advisors. A reminer is that Raines was the guy who ran Fannie Mae until recently and was brought up on indictment. Yeah, I guess Obama's your man if you want repeats of the Fannie Mae Freddie Mac disasters. Another note is that Dodd and Obama were the two largest recipients of contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Yet, you would much rather focus on rape kits?!
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 10-06-2008, 05:38 PM
ajmccarrell ajmccarrell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashton View Post
I found the debate to be endlessly amusing. Poor Palin came across as though she was trying out for Legally Blonde III, Elle Woods Runs for VP. The winking just cracked me up but the whole package was just too much.

Katherine Harris always made me laugh for being such an air-headed loon, but Palin may just turn out to be my favorite of them all. They should get a daytime TV show together when this is all over.
Hmmm. Biden making up historical events takes the cake. Ted Baxter lives! He said he and Obama asked for NATO to fill the vacuum. However, the event that he is attempting to describe, where Syria actually chased US out of Lebanon was in 1982, when Obama wasn't even in politics yet. The guy SOUNDED smart, but he was making it up as he went. According to fact check, he lied 14 times. The French and the US never chased Hezbollah out of Lebanon. The guy is a loose cannon.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:01 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermicious knid View Post
. . . None of those examples from strandinthewind are policies that she put in place as governor or mayor. Certainly not that scurillous "rape kit" lie. The Wasilla police never charged a single woman (or her insurance co.) after being raped. Some hospitals across the state were doing so, and there is no reason to believe that Sarah Palin had any clue about this . . . .
No, her police dept. did charge the insurance companies as evidenced here --



Clearly she knew because the police chief was vocal about this for six months and it was a statewide issue, etc. To assert that Palin did not know that in a town of like 5,000 of which she was the mayor, is, at best, a testament to her incompetence, and, at worst, a testament to the abomination and complete idiot I think she is.
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world

Last edited by strandinthewind; 10-06-2008 at 06:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:07 PM
MacMan's Avatar
MacMan MacMan is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,391
Default

Holy Man! These guys are brilliant! I missed this last Sat. Thanks for posting it!!
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:13 PM
ajmccarrell ajmccarrell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMan View Post
Holy Man! These guys are brilliant! I missed this last Sat. Thanks for posting it!!
I wish Ted Knight were still alive to play Biden. Leslie Nielsen might do in a pinch, though.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:21 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

Plain's baseless innuendo exposed.

Note - Palin is now attacking Obama on Rev. Wright even though McCain formerly stated he would not particiapte in. Moreover, Plain stated "I guess that would be a John McCain call on whether he wants to bring that up" -- yet she brings it up Now that his campaign is tanking fast, he has to resort to this. What a hack.

Analysis: Palin's words may backfire on McCain

By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press Writer

Mon Oct 6, 12:55 AM ET

By claiming that Democrat Barack Obama is "palling around with terrorists" and doesn't see the U.S. like other Americans, vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin targeted key goals for a faltering campaign.

And though she may have scored a political hit each time, her attack was unsubstantiated and carried a racially tinged subtext that John McCain himself may come to regret.

First, Palin's attack shows that her energetic debate with rival Joe Biden may be just the beginning, not the end, of a sharpened role in the battle to win the presidency.

"Our opponent ... is someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect, imperfect enough, that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country," Palin told a group of donors in Englewood, Colo. A deliberate attempt to smear Obama, McCain's ticket-mate echoed the line at three separate events Saturday.

"This is not a man who sees America like you and I see America," she said. "We see America as a force of good in this world. We see an America of exceptionalism."

Obama isn't above attacking McCain's character with loaded words, releasing an ad on Sunday that calls the Arizona Republican "erratic" — a hard-to miss suggestion that McCain's age, 72, might be an issue.

"Our financial system in turmoil," an announcer says in Obama's new ad. "And John McCain? Erratic in a crisis. Out of touch on the economy."

A harsh and plainly partisan judgment, certainly, but not on the level of suggesting that a fellow senator is un-American and even a friend of terrorists.

In her character attack, Palin questions Obama's association with William Ayers, a member of the Vietnam-era Weather Underground. Her reference was exaggerated at best if not outright false. No evidence shows they were "pals" or even close when they worked on community boards years ago and Ayers hosted a political event for Obama early in his career.

Obama, who was a child when the Weathermen were planting bombs, has denounced Ayers' radical views and actions.

With her criticism, Palin is taking on the running mate's traditional role of attacker, said Rich Galen, a Republican strategist.

"There appears to be a newfound sense of confidence in Sarah Palin as a candidate, given her performance the other night," Galen said. "I think that they are comfortable enough with her now that she's got the standing with the electorate to take off after Obama."

Second, Palin's incendiary charge draws media and voter attention away from the worsening economy. It also comes after McCain supported a pork-laden Wall Street bailout plan in spite of conservative anger and his own misgivings.

"It's a giant changing of the subject," said Jenny Backus, a Democratic strategist. "The problem is the messenger. If you want to start throwing fire bombs, you don't send out the fluffy bunny to do it. I think people don't take Sarah Palin seriously."

The larger purpose behind Palin's broadside is to reintroduce the question of Obama's associations. Millions of voters, many of them open to being swayed to one side or the other, are starting to pay attention to an election a month away.

For the McCain campaign, that makes Obama's ties to Ayers as well as convicted felon Antoin "Tony" Rezko and the controversial minister Jeremiah Wright ripe for renewed criticism. And Palin brings a fresh voice to the argument.

Effective character attacks have come earlier in campaigns. In June 1988, Republican George H.W. Bush criticized Democrat Michael Dukakis over the furlough granted to Willie Horton, a convicted murderer who then raped a woman and stabbed her companion. Related TV ads followed in September and October.

The Vietnam-era Swift Boat veterans who attacked Democrat John Kerry's war record started in the spring of 2004 and gained traction in late summer.

"The four weeks that are left are an eternity. There's plenty of time in the campaign," said Republican strategist Joe Gaylord. "I think it is a legitimate strategy to talk about Obama and to talk about his background and who he pals around with."

Palin's words avoid repulsing voters with overt racism. But is there another subtext for creating the false image of a black presidential nominee "palling around" with terrorists while assuring a predominantly white audience that he doesn't see their America?

In a post-Sept. 11 America, terrorists are envisioned as dark-skinned radical Muslims, not the homegrown anarchists of Ayers' day 40 years ago. With Obama a relative unknown when he began his campaign, the Internet hummed with false e-mails about ties to radical Islam of a foreign-born candidate.

Whether intended or not by the McCain campaign, portraying Obama as "not like us" is another potential appeal to racism. It suggests that the Hawaiian-born Christian is, at heart, un-American.

The fact is that when racism creeps into the discussion, it serves a purpose for McCain. As the fallout from Wright's sermons showed earlier this year, forcing Obama to abandon issues to talk about race leads to unresolved arguments about America's promise to treat all people equally.

John McCain occasionally says he looks back on decisions with regret. He has apologized for opposing a holiday to honor Martin Luther King Jr. He has apologized for refusing to call for the removal of a Confederate flag from South Carolina's Capitol.

When the 2008 campaign is over will McCain say he regrets appeals such as Palin's? ___

EDITOR'S NOTE — Douglass K. Daniel is a writer and editor with the Washington bureau of The Associated Press.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/...words_analysis
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:23 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

And this one, from Fox nonetheless (emphasis supplied) :

Palin Invokes Jeremiah Wright, Continues Hit on Obama-Ayers Relationship

CLEARWATER, Fla.:

Sarah Palin isn't backing down on questioning Barack Obama's relationships -- telling voters in Florida Monday that she is curious how the Democratic presidential candidate couldn't know that William Ayers was a co-founder of the Weather Underground terrorist group.

Embodying her role as the Republican campaign's pit bull with lipstick, the vice presidential contender said one of her favorite newspapers -- The New York Times -- reported that Ayers was part of a group that launched a bombing campaign against the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol.

"And then there's even more to the story," Palin told voters in Clearwater, Fla. "Barack Obama says that Ayers was just someone in the neighborhood, but that's less than truthful. His own advisers said they were quote certainly friendly. In fact Obama held one of his first meetings of his political career in Bill Ayers' living room and they worked together on various projects in Chicago."

Palin did not say the claim that Obama "pals around" with a terrorist, but did repeat a line she used over the weekend that Obama "sees America as imperfect enough to work with a domestic terrorist who had targeted his own country."

Ayers and Obama live in the same Chicago neighborhood and served on a charity board together. Ayers hosted a fundraiser for Obama when he first ran for state office in the mid-1990s.

As Palin continues to attend rallies and fund-raise in Florida, the McCain campaign is not relenting on its argument that Obama's ties to certain individuals raise legitimate questions about his capacity to lead..

"Does Barack Obama truly expect the American people to believe that he had no idea about his friends past as the infamous founder of the domestic terror group The Weather Underground or is he just lying?" asked McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds. "If Obama didn't know in 1995 about the bombings Ayers was responsible for, when did he find out -- because Obama was promoting Ayers' book in 1997, serving on boards with him until 2002, and trading e-mails and phone calls with him as recently as 2005."

The Obama campaign has responded that Obama was eight years old when Ayers was planting bombs and therefore can't be linked to his past activities. Ayers has said he never regretted his Weather Underground activities, which led to the deaths of three of his cohorts in a bomb-making accident.

On Monday, Obama said the tactic used by the McCain team signifies a losing campaign.

"I was a little surprised over the last couple of days to hear . . . Sen. McCain's campaign say that we want to turn the page on discussions about the economy and campaign, a member of Sen. McCain's campaign saying today that if we talk about the economic crisis we lose," Obama said.

"I have got news for the McCain campaign - the American people are losing right now. They are losing their jobs - they are losing their health care. They are losing their homes and their savings. I cannot imagine anything more important to talk about than the economic crisis. And the notion that we would want to brush that aside and engage in the usual political shenanigans and smear tactics that have come to characterize too many campaigns," he continued.

Ayers isn't the only character tied to Obama that Palin is reminding voters about. She also told FOX News contributor William Kristol, a columnist for The New York Times, that she doesn't know why Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. is off limits for discussion.

Wright is a retired pastor who preached at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago and is credited by Obama as bringing him back to his Christian roots. After 20 years in his church, Obama denounced Wright and severed ties with Trinity United last spring after videotapes surfaced showing Wright making anti-American and anti-Semitic comments from the pulpit.

In April, McCain said he would not attack Obama for the linkage, and condemned the North Carolina Republican Party for an ad that called Obama "too extreme" because Wright was his pastor.

"Unfortunately, all I can do is, in as visible a way as possible, disassociate myself from that kind of campaigning," McCain said at the time.

But pressed in an interview by Kristol, Palin said she didn't know "why that association isn't discussed more, because those were appalling things that that pastor had said about our great country."

She continued, "To me, that does say something about character. But, you know, I guess that would be a John McCain call on whether he wants to bring that up."

Kristol told FOX News that Palin "seems to be enjoying" her role of taking the attack to Obama's camp.

"She's a good natural politician and she doesn't think Barack Obama should be the president," Kristol said. He added that he thinks it could be useful to discuss Obama's relationships, even though "the conventional wisdom, which is as long as the Dow is going down 450 points, it's pointless to talk about Bill Ayers or Reverend Jeremiah Wright" is incorrect.

"I don't really agree with that. I think character and judgment for a presidential choice in a time of crisis remains awfully important," he said.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10...remiah-wright/
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:30 PM
ashton ashton is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
Default

If I was caught on tape being spoken over by a witch doctor to keep witchcraft away, and it wasn't a Halloween stunt, I would probably be quiet about others peoples' pastors.

I am puzzled as to what they hope to accomplish with this as it is old news and everyone has heard it before. For the first time in memory, the October suprise has turned out to be moldy left-overs that people didn't buy the first time around.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:34 PM
ashton ashton is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
Default

I think what makes it the funniest is that Tina Fey really doesn't have to embellish to make it funny. I have never before seen a parody of a person that for the most part, just quotes the person directly. In this one, she does add some things; however the Couric interviews were verbatim.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:54 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermicious knid View Post
What TrueFaith77 asked for were examples of her policies as governor. None of those examples from strandinthewind are policies that she put in place as governor or mayor. Certainly not that scurillous "rape kit" lie. The Wasilla police never charged a single woman (or her insurance co.) after being raped. Some hospitals across the state were doing so, and there is no reason to believe that Sarah Palin had any clue about this. I think the lies on this subject being spread by other website are more sleazy than any purple heart lie about John Kerry.

TrueFaith77, I am aware of one thing she did as governor. She increased the tax rate that oil companies pay to extract the oil in her state. Those companies had been colluding with corrupt legislators for years, and she helped put a stop to what they were doing.
Here is a rather damning article from a mostly conservative source on her policies prior to her nomination - emphasis and commentary supplied.

SEPTEMBER 4, 2008

Focus Turns to Palin Record

Governor Pushed Conservative Agenda, but Showed Flexibility

By JIM CARLTON, MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS, ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON and LAURA

In the five days since Sen. John McCain announced Sarah Palin as his vice-presidential running mate, she has been embraced by the right and pilloried by the left as a staunch conservative on social and economic issues. But a look at her record as mayor of the small town of Wasilla and as governor of Alaska shows a politician more flexible in her ideology as she has juggled the needs of governing.

Gov. Palin has supported abortion restrictions and floated the idea of pulling books she considered offensive from a local library. But she also drew the ire of the religious right by shelving calls for new abortion limits, when she worried it would distract from her bipartisan deal to push through a new gas pipeline. She forced through property-tax cuts, but also raised taxes on oil companies. She has close relations with organized labor, backing union contracts on a state pipeline. Gov. Palin throughout her career has consistently positioned herself as a reformer, a stance that led her to tangle repeatedly, in Wasilla and Juneau, with people she considered opponents, sometimes driving them from office.

Ms. Palin began her political career in the small town of Wasilla, 45 miles north of Anchorage, where she served on the city council and then as mayor. When she ran for governor in 2006, she took on in the Republican primary an incumbent who had been hammered by a string of controversial decisions. She beat him handily, and went on to defeat former Democratic Gov. Tony Knowles by a wide margin. His mantra against her: "The untested mayor of a small town."

Her term as governor began on a combative note. The state had been rocked by raids by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents of legislators' offices around the state in 2006, as part of a probe into influence-peddling by oil-field contractor VECO Corp.

The new Republican governor appeared at a news conference with the former leader of the Democratic minority in the Senate to unveil an "Ethics White Paper" calling for a clampdown on questionable dealings by lawmakers. [Hmmm - you mean like Troopergate]

"I and others were completely taken aback," recalls Lyda Green, a fellow Republican and senator from the governor's hometown in Wasilla. "It was a strange thing to do on the first day she got here, and a lot of us thought it was just kind of a slap in the face."

That set the stage for a relationship with the governor that many of her detractors feel has been a one-way street. "It's not possible to have a disagreement with Sarah Palin and then continue a friendly arrangement after that point," says Ms. Green, who serves as the state Senate president. "After that point, she doesn't see the disagreement as being on policy. She sees it as personal."

The McCain campaign has refused requests for comment from Gov. Palin, but her supporters say she has taken heat for trying to clean up state government. "It's difficult when you stand up to the status quo, because change does not come easily," says Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell, who was elected in 2006 on the same campaign for clean government as Ms. Palin. "But she genuinely cares about everyday Alaskans and their concerns, and that's why she's so popular."

Beyond her advocacy of reforms in Wasilla and Juneau, Ms. Palin's Republican backers say her record shows her to be a classic fiscal conservative. They note that when she first took office as mayor, city coffers were flush with revenue from a new sales tax. She took the opportunity to reduce property taxes. [Yet, they still wanted to charge for rape kits ]

She displayed some enthusiasm for taxpayer relief after becoming governor, too. She got the legislature to pass an energy-relief measure last month that will send $1,200 checks to eligible Alaskans to offset the rising cost of gasoline and other fuel in the state. Alaska's fuel costs are higher than many other states' because of its remoteness and vast size. Unlike most states, Alaska's coffers are overflowing with money from high oil prices, and there will still be plenty left in a $5 billion surplus after the state pays around $800 million to the citizens.

But Gov. Palin has also at times pushed more taxes and more spending. As governor, she essentially raised taxes on oil companies as part of a deal to help update Alaska's formula for extracting royalties off of crude production.

Her signature project as mayor was the construction of the city's new hockey rink and sports complex. Ms. Palin asked the voters for permission to issue a $15 million bond and pay for it by boosting the sales tax from 2% to 2.5%. The referendum passed by a 20-vote margin, and the city began construction. [MY GAWD- THIS LIBERAL HAS RAISED TAXES WHEN IT SUITED HER ]

"Other people would talk about having a sports complex for years, and they'd still be talking about it if Sarah Palin hadn't come along and built it for them," says Donald Moore, who managed the project.

It turned out, however, that Ms. Palin's administration had fouled up the land purchase and didn't have legal title. The matter ended up in court, and the city ultimately paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest and legal fees. "Wasilla isn't broke, but that put a big dent in our reserve," says City Councilwoman Dianne Woodruff, a Palin critic. "It happened on her watch."

Consistent Embrace

Gov. Palin's views on social issues -- abortion, gay rights, her personal religious beliefs -- have gotten the greatest attention since Sen. McCain picked her last Friday. Her consistent embrace of socially conservative views has energized the religious right, even amid the news of her unmarried 17-year-old daughter's pregnancy.

She has said she would make abortion illegal in all cases, unless the life of the mother was at risk [Now Now - that's a life your are terminating by making a value judgement - in theory nature should take its course even if both die - at least if women, much less the govt., are given no choice in God's will, which is the strict anti abortion/anti choice view ] Sen. McCain would make exceptions for rape or incest as well. Unlike Sen. McCain, she opposes stem-cell research, which involves destruction of human embryos [What about to save the life of the mother - why draw the distinction here ]. And she supports abstinence-until-marriage programs, where teens are taught to refrain from sex until marriage and contraception is discussed only to explain its failings [like her 17 year old daughter ]

"Explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," she said in a 2006 Eagle Forum questionnaire.

Yet Gov. Palin hasn't always embraced the social conservatives' platform in office. She drew flak from pro-life groups in Alaska after she declined their request to include two abortion-related measures in a series of special sessions she called earlier this year for legislators to act on her proposal to build a gas pipeline. She said those bills would be too distracting from the pipeline measure, which she considered a higher priority and wanted passed, Ms. Green said. [that is just wanting her other agenda to pass, it does not in any way make her in any way pro choice] Many pro-lifers were furious. "If you have a chance to stand up for pro-life and you don't do it, that's an opportunity wasted," says Andrew Halcro, a conservative talk-show host in Anchorage who ran against Gov. Palin in the 2006 Republican primary.

The economic issue Gov. Palin perhaps knows best is energy. She echoes almost all Alaska politicians in favoring oil exploration not only in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, but also off its shoreline and elsewhere in the country.

"We have billions and billions of barrels of oil and trillions of feet of natural gas. We have so much potential from tapping our resources here in Alaska. And we can do this with minimum environmental impact," she told an interviewer for a profile to be published this month in the conservative Newsmax magazine, which released the text online. "It's nonsense not to tap a safe domestic source of oil."

Sen. McCain opposes ANWR drilling. In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in June, Gov. Palin said that when she met with Sen. McCain at a governor's conference in Washington, they discussed energy but parted company on the issue of drilling in ANWR, which he has opposed.

"We have agreed to disagree on ANWR," she said at the time. But the governor said there were other untapped oil reserves she wanted to drill, including more fields in Prudhoe Bay and closer to the rugged Brooks Range. "We don't need to send our president to Saudi Arabia begging for oil," she said, in a slap to President George W. Bush's visits there. "We can start drilling here." [yep and even in ten years, all that oil will lessen the price of gas maybe $0.10 and it will eventually run out, leaving us in the same position as before )

In an interview with Vogue in February, Gov. Palin said her desire for independence from foreign oil is "personal." Speaking about the possible deployment of her son Track, who serves in the Army, to Iraq [HEY - I thought we went there to liberate Iraq, stop SH's immediate threat of attacking us with the nukes he had, and break up those Al-Q cells in Iraq prior to the war that W told us were there - is she saying we are there for oil] , she said, "This kid is doing everything he can to protect the safety of the United States. Are we? Are we producing a domestic, secure form of energy instead of relying on foreign sources? We need to be doing more. And we can."

Though she has said that "a changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location," Gov. Palin is among a shrinking group of politicians who are skeptical that humans are responsible for climate change -- a position sharply at odds with that of Sen. McCain, who has earned kudos from environmentalists for his support of a measure in Congress to fight global warming by imposing limits on greenhouse-gas emissions [What an idiot].

Her administration has announced its intent to file suit challenging the recent federal listing of Alaskan polar bears as a threatened species, on grounds the bear populations in the state are thriving and the listing would cripple oil and gas development along Alaska's arctic coasts. That's another contrast with Sen. McCain, who embraced the polar bear decision.

Her stance on global warming has drawn criticism from some native Alaskan groups, who say shrinking permafrost has destabilized the ground under native villages and affected subsistence hunting, fishing and farming. The governor did announce plans last year to address climate-change issues in Alaska and reduce greenhouse-gas emissions within the state.

On education, Gov. Palin has been a champion for school choice, including vouchers and home schooling. She said in a 2006 questionnaire that parents should be allowed to opt out of curricula they don't approve of. She supports teaching creationism in schools alongside evolution [Because creation is a science ].

During her 2006 campaign, unlike other candidates, she did not endorse more funding for schools, saying efficiencies can always be made. She also opposed funding for a state preschool program.

Strong Stand on Health

Gov. Palin didn't make health care one of her top priorities, but where she did take a strong stand on health, it was for the free market. "Health care must be market- and business-driven, rather than restricted by government," her office said in a January statement.

Her overall approach is much like Sen. McCain's -- loosen government regulations to allow for greater competition, along with more information for patients to make good choices [Because we all know that deregulating an industry driven by greed has no significant ramifications to the common man and can only result in good things, like predatory lending for example].

Addressing the uninsured was less of an issue for Gov. Palin, much as it is less significant for Sen. McCain. She was reluctant to support a significant expansion of the state's version of the Children's Health Insurance Program, called Denali KidCare. She signed a bill that raised eligibility to allow families with incomes up to 175% of the poverty level -- stingy compared with other states.

Critics say Gov. Palin's biggest weak spot as a candidate for national office is her lack of foreign-policy or national-security experience. Defenders have cited her role during her brief governorship as overseer of the Alaska National Guard. When a CNN reporter pressed a McCain campaign spokesman to name any decisions made in that capacity, he didn't offer anything specific -- and Sen. McCain canceled an appearance on the network to protest what the campaign considered a hostile line of questioning.

Gov. Palin has told interviewers that her focus on state government has left her with little time to focus on matters abroad, and her record of public statements bears that out.

Gov. Palin's stance on the war in Iraq -- which appears to be the only such issue she has addressed at any level of detail -- seems to have wavered. In March 2007, the newly elected governor told the Alaska Business Monthly in an interview that "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place." [SHE IS WAIVING THE WHITE FLAG OF SURRENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

Ms. Palin's record of advocating reform and duking it out with opponents dates back to her days in Wasilla, best known as the traditional starting point for the grueling Iditarod dog-sled race. A parent-teacher association activist, she won a seat on the city council in 1992, and in 1996, at the age of 32, toppled the incumbent mayor.
Within months of taking office, she fired the police chief, the finance director, the city planner and other department heads. "I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the City of Wasilla," she wrote to Irl Stambaugh, the police chief.
Mr. Stambaugh subsequently sued unsuccessfully for damages for wrongful termination. In his suit, he alleged that the mayor was punishing him for his opposition to a law that would allow residents to carry concealed weapons, as well as his efforts to limit late-night bar hours. Bars in Wasilla stay open until 5 a.m.
Mr. Stambaugh couldn't be located for comment this week.

"It wasn't that it was a corrupt little town that needed cleaning up," says Victoria Naegele, then the managing editor of the local Frontiersman newspaper. "It was a sleepy little town that had some problems."

Among those Ms. Palin tried to dismiss was library director Mary Ellen Emmons. Within days of her election, Ms. Palin approached Ms. Emmons to ask whether she would resist efforts to censor books in the library's collection.

It was general inquiry; Ms. Palin didn't ask Ms. Emmons to remove any particular books, according to the Frontiersman. "I told her clearly, I will fight anyone who tries to dictate what books can go on the library shelves," Ms. Emmons told the paper at the time.

Ms. Palin later described her inquiry as "rhetorical" and a way to get to know the city employees. [Yea Right - I mean everyone knows those pesky homos are infiltrating our way of live at every turn]

Ms. Palin ultimately allowed Ms. Emmons to keep her post [Due to Public Outrage]. Ms. Emmons, who has since left Wasilla, couldn't be reached for comment.

—Susan Davis, Louise Radnofsky and Brad Haynes contributed to this article.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1220...googlenews_wsj

In any event, people should read this and do some research on their own. Then, they should reach their own conclusions.
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 10-06-2008, 06:58 PM
ajmccarrell ajmccarrell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashton View Post
If I was caught on tape being spoken over by a witch doctor to keep witchcraft away, and it wasn't a Halloween stunt, I would probably be quiet about others peoples' pastors.

I am puzzled as to what they hope to accomplish with this as it is old news and everyone has heard it before. For the first time in memory, the October suprise has turned out to be moldy left-overs that people didn't buy the first time around.
He wasn't a witchdoctor, he was a missionary; and for those not entirely entirely familiar, there is a huge difference between missionaries that show up on your doorstep with pamphlets and the people who have to stand up to mortar attacks in Darfur (which IS a religious war) and protect their congregations from kidnappings perpetrated by cults that practice human sacrifice. In Kenya, where the guy was from, witchcraft IS a real problem and people kill people over there in bizarre magic rituals. So, it doesn't strike me as that odd that a newcomer to this country might not know that witchcraft isn't exactly the way people play over here or that he might have included it in his prayers as a matter of habit. My old Rabbi had a hex put on him by a local witch coven, and this is Seattle not Congo, so it's not THAT far out in left field. He was just a Rabbi like any other, nothing strange about him at all. His site is http://www.torahresource.com/ His whole point was to emphasize the similarities between early Christianity and Judaism. He is a uniter, yet the local witches hate the guy. He never even said anything about them or against them specifically. His Shabbat lessons are basically (endless liturgy) reading a Torah passage, giving context and background and passing a mic around for people to express opinions on. I guess that is enough to earn the ire of the local coven. BTW there are a LOT of covens around Seattle. Witchcraft isn't exactly passe on the West Coast. It's alive, well and quite bizarre.

Last edited by ajmccarrell; 10-06-2008 at 07:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 10-06-2008, 07:00 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashton View Post
. . . If I was caught on tape being spoken over by a witch doctor to keep witchcraft away, and it wasn't a Halloween stunt, I would probably be quiet about others peoples' pastors.
I know -- but everyone knows she didn't mean it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashton View Post
I am puzzled as to what they hope to accomplish with this as it is old news and everyone has heard it before. For the first time in memory, the October suprise has turned out to be moldy left-overs that people didn't buy the first time around.
The answer is this. The McCain campaign is tanking in every poll, including the Ramussan poll. The McCain campaign cannot discuss the economy because McCain is equated to W on that issue. So, the McCain campaign must attack Obama and make people think he is a muslim terrorist, which is the point of the attacks no mater what the McCain campaign or anyone else may say to the contrary.
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 10-06-2008, 07:01 PM
strandinthewind's Avatar
strandinthewind strandinthewind is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 25,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashton View Post
I think what makes it the funniest is that Tina Fey really doesn't have to embellish to make it funny. I have never before seen a parody of a person that for the most part, just quotes the person directly. In this one, she does add some things; however the Couric interviews were verbatim.
I know - I honestly felt a little sorry for Palin during her horrifying performance in the Couric interview.
__________________
Photobucket

save the cheerleader - save the world
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Fleetwood: My Life and Adventures in Fleetwood Mac by Fleetwood, Mick picture

Fleetwood: My Life and Adventures in Fleetwood Mac by Fleetwood, Mick

$4.66



*NEW* ~ Fleetwood: Biography of Mick Fleetwood ~ Hardcover ~ Dust Jacket picture

*NEW* ~ Fleetwood: Biography of Mick Fleetwood ~ Hardcover ~ Dust Jacket

$16.00



MICK FLEETWOOD FLEETWOOD MAC SIGNED AUTOGRAPHED PRIVATE WINE PROMO SCREENING picture

MICK FLEETWOOD FLEETWOOD MAC SIGNED AUTOGRAPHED PRIVATE WINE PROMO SCREENING

$26.00



Mick Fleetwood and Friends - Celebrate t... - Mick Fleetwood and Friends CD DVVG picture

Mick Fleetwood and Friends - Celebrate t... - Mick Fleetwood and Friends CD DVVG

$16.42



Mick Fleetwood - Celebrate The Music Of Peter Green And The Early Years of Fleet picture

Mick Fleetwood - Celebrate The Music Of Peter Green And The Early Years of Fleet

$23.62




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1995-2003 Martin and Lisa Adelson, All Rights Reserved