liberals....

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Wild Heart

I began to feel unwelcomed here after my political views changed, even though I steered clear of the political debates, so I slipped into lurker status. I never realized how intolerate people on this board can be until I stepped over to the "wrong" side of the fence.

I am well aware of the intolerance from both sides, believe me. I get it from the Democrats, the Republicans and the fascists. But rather than complain about it, I decide whether I want to continue participating in these discussions or to pass on them. Either decision is acceptable, as far as I can tell.

But coming on here just to tell the rest of us how much better you are because you see the error of our ways is a bit silly. If you don't want to participate, that is your choice. But what do you gain by telling us how intolerant we are and therefore you will no longer participate? Are we supposed to stop, reevaluate our behavior and try to reform? Is that your goal?

I just think it's sad that you decided on Sept. 11 that siding with the warmongers and the blood-thirsters was the way to respond to the attacks. You hit me, I hit you. Go ahead, hit me back and I will knock you down. As humans, we really haven't made as much progress as we give ourselves credit for, have we?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I know that. Bath was trustee or simething like that. But my point is all of this conspiracy for $50,000 15 years ago. That hardly is a smoking gun but, it is evidence nonetheless - I readily admit that.

Did you just miss my point, Jason? I think you did. I just pointed out you did exactly what you accuse Michael Moore of doing--telling only part of the story.

Isn't wonderfully human and satisfying to frame our arguments in a way that suits the point of view we're trying to put forth?

[Bella Figura]

Wild Heart says "Make that three...........although technically I'm a lurker Ledgie and not an active poster anymore. I stopped posting sometime ago after the realization that this board has become increasingly intolerate to opposing views and seeing how anyone expressing an opinion outside of the far left is ridiculed."

this is what I do not want to see happen on the Ledge, all should feel welcome here to post whatever political opinion they have on ChitChat without feeling they are "ignorant" but I do understand how you feel and have been lurky lately myself...but I did post today and you did too, so intellect with opposing views can stand for something

"I guess to point of my post is that friendly debate is one thing and everybody has different opinions but the level of intolerance for opposing views on this board is outrageous and not just in political threads. I'm sure I'm not the only Ledgie who has chosen lurker status or completely left the board because they feel unwelcome because they do not agree with the majority on certain issues whether it be political, moral or the Mac themselves. I think it's very sad how bipolarized we've become and our own Ledge is an example..."

maybe it will calm down after the election but probably not because whoever wins, passion and hate not intellect, and not the people are ruling this country...

Carne says "You hit me, I hit you. Go ahead, hit me back and I will knock you down. As humans, we really haven't made as much progress as we give ourselves credit for, have we?" no we have not so I say nuke 'em all, Ollie, the Saudis, MM, Mick, John, Lindsey and Stevie...and that damn Christine, how dare she make an independent solo record...

oops I just flip-flopped mid-post!!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Are you pulling my leg because if you are stop, please.

I do not know what you do not get about this. The overturning of a conviction makes it like the original conviction never existed. I do not know how elese to explain it. I guess for those three years you could say Ollie North was convicted. But, once the court overturned it, you could no longer day that. Again, it is as if the original conviction never existed.

Please stop this if you are just joking with me.

I'm not joking, Jason. You've known me long enough to when I'm joking.

I accept that his conviction was overturned and that he is no longer a convicted war criminal in the mind of the public. But he is and always will be in my eyes. That's all I'm saying.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I am well aware of the intolerance from both sides, believe me. I get it from the Democrats, the Republicans and the fascists. But rather than complain about it, I decide whether I want to continue participating in these discussions or to pass on them. Either decision is acceptable, as far as I can tell.

But coming on here just to tell the rest of us how much better you are because you see the error of our ways is a bit silly. If you don't want to participate, that is your choice. But what do you gain by telling us how intolerant we are and therefore you will no longer participate? Are we supposed to stop, reevaluate our behavior and try to reform? Is that your goal?

I just think it's sad that you decided on Sept. 11 that siding with the warmongers and the blood-thirsters was the way to respond to the attacks. You hit me, I hit you. Go ahead, hit me back and I will knock you down. As humans, we really haven't made as much progress as we give ourselves credit for, have we?

Very good points, Carne.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Name them.

Hee. This should be good.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Hee. This should be good.

Well, he refuses to do it. But I already characterized his actions quite aptly in another post...

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Well, he refuses to do it.

He doesn't refuse, he's simply not able to do it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I just think it's sad that you decided on Sept. 11 that siding with the warmongers and the blood-thirsters was the way to respond to the attacks. You hit me, I hit you. Go ahead, hit me back and I will knock you down. As humans, we really haven't made as much progress as we give ourselves credit for, have we?

Perhaps we should send OBL to sensitivity training

That BTW was rank sarcasm and I was not being serious

Seriously, I know of no other to deal with people like him and the Taliban that provided him safety, but swore he could never do such a thing and was not there, etc. They seemingly understand only one thing and that unfortunately is violence. I hate it. But I know that is the way it is. I also fully realize that that way of thinking (our's and their's) is not the right road, but I know of no other. That speaks less of all involved as far as I am concerned.

Also, I am unsure if we stopped protecting Israel and withdrew all of our support from the Middle East and never went there again, which is what they say they want, that they would stop. Maybe it would be worth the try. In any event, rushing to war in Iraq certainly made us more enemies. Although the final product of the new Iraqi govt. remains to be seen, so far that has not won us a tremendous amount of new friends.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

You know something? Right about now I wouldn't mind a couple of riots...

I'm willing to bet it's going to happen soon and in your city, unfortunately.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'm not joking, Jason. You've known me long enough to when I'm joking.

I accept that his conviction was overturned and that he is no longer a convicted war criminal in the mind of the public. But he is and always will be in my eyes. That's all I'm saying.

That is not what you said, you said he was convicted, which he never was according to the court that overturned his false convictions. Thus, it is not "in the mind of the public" it is in the mind of the law. What you mean is he is guilty. I, and the court, agree with you there. But, they are two different things and saying he was convicted is just flat out wrong and there are no two ways about it.

But, detante already.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am not doing that. Didn't I say it was effective and met his goals - that is far from blasting the film?

...always seems to heal the wounds if I can get you to dance...'

Everybody sing now!

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It does make, to quote Carne, dubious associations to wit - so what if the Saudis got put on a plane and taken out of the US?

I think that's a pretty big deal. I wouldn't consider the idea of letting a whole bunch of people who could possibly have information related to 9/11 leave the country a "so what".

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

MM IMO is trying to use that to link the govt.'s actions with supporting OBL on the day we got attacked.

I didn't see that at all. Moore was trying to get people to open up their eyes as to why Dubya ditched the idea of really going after Osama vs. invading Iraq.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Those people had nothing to do with OBL and his attack.

I don't think there was enough investigation to be able to make this statement. If you consider the fact that the gov't has been detaining suspicious people for almost two years without outside contact, I find it a little disturbing that all those Saudis were able to leave after only two days!

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

He knows that the use of the SA name and the bin Laden (there are hundreds in that immedicate family) will cause people to somehow in their heads think W aided OBL. Intererstingly, W did this same technique with linking OBL with Iraq.

If Moore wants to arouse some kind of suspicion with regard to the Bushes connection to Saudis, that is food for debate. Dubya's lies in connecting Al Qaeda to Iraq has resulted in the death of thousands and the ruin of the American worldview.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also, how many parents who are proud that their children served and died in Iraq did MM show. Certainly they exist.

I don't think that showing "proud" American parents would have done anything to alter the plight of the parent Moore showcased. I doubt there are any parents that would be proud that their children died for any reason- for an unnecessary war, even more so. I think one of the most poignant parts of the movie was when Moore said that the soldiers enlisted in the military with the tacet understanding that they would have to go to war only when necessary, and now, how can we as citizens look them in the eye after this betrayal.

[Wild Heart]

Originally Posted by dissention

So, why do you support Bush? Seriously.

Oh no, and I say this with the upmost respect, you're not leading this lamb to slaughter. I'm not about to open myself up for that flaming!

And to CarneVaca - I'm not at all surprised at your response to my post. I never said I was better than anyone because I'm certainly not! If that was implied, then I'm truly sorry.

Frankly I personally have nothing to gain. I've been frustrated with the climate of this board for sometime and guess I felt the need to unload. I guess, maybe, my goal was to make people stop and think before they speak (or type). Is respecting other people's feelings or opinions such a bad thing (or "silly")?

My only response to your comment about Sept. 11 is it's not about eye for an eye and read my response to dissention.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

...always seems to heal the wounds if I can get you to dance...'

Everybody sing now!