This absolutely disgusts me.

[wondergirl9847]

Anyone who thinks sending money to someone to pray FOR them...needs their head examined. LOL

Pray to God yourself!! Ask and you shall receive!! DUR!! LOL

[CarneVaca]

I must jump off this discussion and try to do some work for the last half-hour of my day.

May Allah be with you all.

[estranged4life]

Originally posted by strandinthewind

But, I think Brian J. was referring to people like Pat Robertson saying that he speaks to God and if you paind him some $$$$$ in a thing called "Operation Prayer Shield" he would tell God your prayer perhaps only in general. I mean puuuhhhhllleeezzzeee

I am referring to ALL the televangelists that make up the population of my former beloved & home-town of Tulsa, OK (aka-'the REAL Sin City'). These slimes used the "fear of God" to make their bank accounts grow more rapidly than the budget deficit under the current adminstration (!!!), And if you were not a Christian you were nothing more than a piece of s--t to these shmucks!!! If ya turn on TBN (aka-'Gimme Me Yer Money Central') now you will see that they think the movie "Passion Of Christ" is the best thing since Christ himself existed!!!

Ya have to realize that Tulsa has more churches per capita than Los Angeles, New York City, Houston & Chicago combined (Sad but true!!!) Ya can't go around the block without passing a church!!! Too bad those churches werent JOBS!!!!!!!

Brian "TACIT" j.

ps-"TACIT" is the nickname that my older brother gave me...Wanna guess what it means???

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
Not a competing interest, but you're close. I'll post on this again later when I have time.

- Jake

Here is a fascinating (at least to me) article.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/romanworld/

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by estranged4life
I am referring to ALL the televangelists that make up the population of my former beloved & home-town of Tulsa, OK (aka-'the REAL Sin City'). These slimes used the "fear of God" to make their bank accounts grow more rapidly than the budget deficit under the current adminstration (!!!), And if you were not a Christian you were nothing more than a piece of s--t to these shmucks!!! If ya turn on TBN (aka-'Gimme Me Yer Money Central') now you will see that they think the movie "Passion Of Christ" is the best thing since Christ himself existed!!!

Ya have to realize that Tulsa has more churches per capita than Los Angeles, New York City, Houston & Chicago combined (Sad but true!!!) Ya can't go around the block without passing a church!!! Too bad those churches werent JOBS!!!!!!!

Brian "TACIT" j.

ps-"TACIT" is the nickname that my older brother gave me...Wanna guess what it means???

I thought that is what you meant - only you said it better!!!

As for these people, I fully recognize that Pat Robertson, oral Roberts, etc. may do alot of good in the world, but even the Nazis were nice in that they fed the Jews before burning or gassing them alive. I realize there are some good teleevangelists, although I have yet to see one IMO. I think these people are in it solely for the money and they prey on people's true faith. It just sickens me because how are "we" supposed to trust Christian charities like Covenant House, which is a GREAT organization.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
As a Jew, a history teacher, and a person with quite an interest in and respect for Christianity, Mel Gibson's recent choices offend me on many levels. I won't even get into the subject of his dad. And I'm going to leave it at that.
- Jake

My whole take on this is that IT IS JUST A MOVIE!

I am not very religious, per say, although I was raised Catholic. Two of my best friends are Jewish. We are all pretty amazed by the outrage against this film, especially from those who either have never seen it or know absolutely nothing about the Bible (or both).

Gibson has stated, repeatedly, that he isn't anti-semitic and neither is the film. Until we see it, we should leave it at that.

From what I hear, the movie follows the Gospels pretty closely. And, I like Gibson. Braveheart was one of the best films of the 90's and he is an amazing director.

This kind of reminds me about the Gay groups that went after Gibson over Braveheart because of the king's son in the film. They claimed that he was homophobic because of the way he presented Edward II as a gay character. What they failed to take into consideration was thatthe historical Edward II was exactly the way he was potrayed in the film and his relationship with his father(Edward I) was also accurate.


Just my 2 cents

Rob

[tommer]

i won't get into all this theological stuff because personally i hold very little respect to ANY religious belief whatsoever. the thought that religion can still today generate such hatered is really beyond me.

i am appalled that in 2004 antisemitism is used as a public relations tool in order to promote a movie.

i was shocked to see mel gibson's interview. the part i liked the most was the part where he said something like 'we shouldn't hate the jews for what happened the same way we should not hate germans for what they've done'. don't get me wrong, i hold nothing against germans (at least those under 85 years old or so), but EXCUSE ME? do you see the parallelization here? hey, we shouldn't hate them, but they were proven morally and technically responsible to a collective horrendous crime.

you know what i find ironic? i guess (jewish) goldie hawn won't be jumping to his bed in any more movies. or in other words, this movie's gonna be a smash, yes, but in 5 years mel gibson will be weeping to diane sawyer of how jewish hollywood managed to ruin his career and kick his butt down to oz, and you know what? he's gonna be right this time around.

[tommer]

Originally posted by Rob67

Gibson has stated, repeatedly, that he isn't anti-semitic and neither is the film. Until we see it, we should leave it at that.

Braveheart was one of the best films of the 90's and he is an amazing director.

Just my 2 cents

Rob

i'm sorry pal, but if he's donating millions to his dad's antisemite church he IS practically antisemite. what he claims means ****, it's what he does which counts.
and another thing, nobody's gonna deny that lenny riefenstahl was a great director too. surprisingly, it didn't make her a great human being.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Rob67
My whole take on this is that IT IS JUST A MOVIE!

I am not very religious, per say, although I was raised Catholic. Two of my best friends are Jewish. We are all pretty amazed by the outrage against this film, especially from those who either have never seen it or know absolutely nothing about the Bible (or both).

Gibson has stated, repeatedly, that he isn't anti-semitic and neither is the film. Until we see it, we should leave it at that.

From what I hear, the movie follows the Gospels pretty closely. And, I like Gibson. Braveheart was one of the best films of the 90's and he is an amazing director.

This kind of reminds me about the Gay groups that went after Gibson over Braveheart because of the king's son in the film. They claimed that he was homophobic because of the way he presented Edward II as a gay character. What they failed to take into consideration was thatthe historical Edward II was exactly the way he was potrayed in the film and his relationship with his father(Edward I) was also accurate.


Just my 2 cents

Rob

We're all entitled to our opinions. Here are mine:
- Calling this just a movie is like calling the Passion plays just plays. Many people over the years did not see the plays and go to dinner. They saw the plays and destroyed Jewish homes & businesses and killed Jews. The week of Easter was the scariest time for Jews in most parts of Europe. And with antisemitic hate crimes on the rise, I see nothing wrong with offering an alternative position to the one offered by Gibson. Whether or not Gibson or the movie is antisemitic - and the ADL position is that they are not - history shows a connection between this portrayal of Jews and Jew-hatred. Hitler looked at the German Passion plays with glee. Yes, I'm worried. Regardless of Mel's intentions - and my feeling is that they are suspect - the effect of the film on Jewish people could be more of the same ugly patterns.
- I know a few rabbis here in Houston who have seen the movie, and I have gone to see other viewers (including Abe Foxman and a Catholic priest) who spoke against it. None of them claims that the movie follows the Gospels very closely. Many, many incidents depicted in the film do not appear in the Gospels at all. Funny, most of these moments from Mel's imagination depict the cruelty of the Jews. Take from that what you will.
- Mel's ability to direct well is not the issue. Gone With The Wind is a damned entertaining movie - visually stunning, for example - but I don't argue that black people have no right to call its portrayal of blacks inaccurate or racist. Hitler's war propaganda movies have amazing cinematography; that doesn't mean we shouldn't see them for what they are. Mel is a capable movie-maker, but in my opinion that doesn't mean he's above reproach.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by tommer

and another thing, nobody's gonna deny that lenny riefenstahl was a great director too. surprisingly, it didn't make her a great human being.

Looks like we made the same point.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Jason, here's that follow-up I promised:

Judaism & Christianity were certainly in competition for converts in the Roman empire. In fact, before Constantine, some estimates say that as much as 10% of the empire was Jewish, including many prominent noble families in Rome. Many Jews today are unaware of our missionary history.
A pivotal event in the Jewish-Christian dynamic was the revolt that led to the destruction of the Second Temple and exile to the diaspora in the year 70 CE. It made sense that Christianity, which had been scapegoated by Nero and company, would complete its break from Judaism. And with Christianity offering a new covenant that would take the place of Temple sacrifice, one that included the attractive Pauline tenets of no kosher laws, no circumcision, etc., Christianity had no reason to maintain ties to a Jewish community that was in exile, in search of a way to redefine itself once again, and apparently doomed to assimilation without any Temple. New converts to Christianity at this point were coming chiefly from the pagan communities, less so the Jewish ones. Certainly many (likely most) of the Jews had been hostile to proselytizing Christians, barring them from synagogues, etc. And with the Christian emphasis on the devil - with no real equivalent in the Jewish doctrine - it made sense to paint the Jews as the spawn of the devil, the persecutors of the savior they continued (and continue) to reject. A great book on this subject is "The Satanizing of the Jews" - written by a Christian.
Hope this makes sense. I am badly in need of food!

- Jake

[GypsySorcerer]

I have not read this entire thread, but I'm throwing in my .02

Who cares what Mel Gibson's dad thinks? If Mel weren't a celebrity we wouldn't even have this thread. And, for that matter, who cares what Mel Gibson thinks? He is another celebrity vocalizing his beliefs, and they all think their opinions matter more than other people's. (And I don't dislike Mel or Susan Sarandon or Bruce Willis or anybody.) But seriously, what is the big deal? Opinions are opinions. Ignore the ones you don't agree with.

I'm Christian, but I'm not planning on seeing the film. I hate violence and do not watch violent films anymore, period. However, I can see both Christians and non-Christians getting something from the film. I do not expect atheists/agnostics/non-Christians to change their beliefs because of a motion picture, but perhaps it will make them think. Not about religion, but a universal truth that from what I understand, the movie depicts: If you sit back and do nothing about corruption/evil, you are just as guilty as the persons doing it. I think it can also remind us to think about being accepting of other people's beliefs, no matter what they are, as long as they are not hurting others. Jesus was not hurting anyone, although others were threatened by his message, hence all the politics in the film. (But I digress.)

As far as who killed Jesus, well I think all Christianity believes he died for everyone's sins. Holding Jews responsible is like holding Germans today responsible for the Nazis.

JMHO

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
Jason, here's that follow-up I promised:

Judaism & Christianity were certainly in competition for converts in the Roman empire. In fact, before Constantine, some estimates say that as much as 10% of the empire was Jewish, including many prominent noble families in Rome. Many Jews today are unaware of our missionary history.
A pivotal event in the Jewish-Christian dynamic was the revolt that led to the destruction of the Second Temple and exile to the diaspora in the year 70 CE. It made sense that Christianity, which had been scapegoated by Nero and company, would complete its break from Judaism. And with Christianity offering a new covenant that would take the place of Temple sacrifice, one that included the attractive Pauline tenets of no kosher laws, no circumcision, etc., Christianity had no reason to maintain ties to a Jewish community that was in exile, in search of a way to redefine itself once again, and apparently doomed to assimilation without any Temple. New converts to Christianity at this point were coming chiefly from the pagan communities, less so the Jewish ones. Certainly many (likely most) of the Jews had been hostile to proselytizing Christians, barring them from synagogues, etc. And with the Christian emphasis on the devil - with no real equivalent in the Jewish doctrine - it made sense to paint the Jews as the spawn of the devil, the persecutors of the savior they continued (and continue) to reject. A great book on this subject is "The Satanizing of the Jews" - written by a Christian.
Hope this makes sense. I am badly in need of food!

- Jake

Why thank you sir!!!! I kind of thought that was what you were talking about at least in general when you posted earlier. The Curch went through alot to become the Roman Catholic Church didn't it

Also, while I was on the treadmill earlier, I had a thought. Was your argument earlier about the timing being all wrong for the Jews to have participated in the crucifixion based on the current Easter dates. The reason I ask is that many believe the current Easter dtae, like the date for Christmas and the other RC holidays, was choseen to correlate with pagan holidays?

Also, I agree with you that passion plays have been used to promote horror for centuries.

[sparky]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In my opinion... for whatever it's worth... I believe the bible is, in many ways, like a book of parables, with it tales of wickedness and righteousness.

Well, of course it is. As it was rewritten, and rewritten, more times and with more political bent than the script of a typical Hollywood film, it became the strange cultural weapon people use it for today.
What is fascinating to me is the built in failsafe mechanism of "believe it or ELSE". You question it, you deny it, you are not a true Christian, and therefore not "saved." Brilliant concept, really. Kudos the architects of the system. It's genius.
As far as Gibson goes, he is clearly a nut bag. The telltale blank stare as he answered certain theological questions was hilarious. Stepford pod man. Good on him. He needed something to believe in, and he found it. Evidently it works for him, and scores of others.
At a certain point in any discussion of religion though, logic flies out the window, and there is no convincing anyone of anything.
You have faith in it, you buy it. You don't have faith, you can't. End of discussion.
That being said, there is a lot of good in those stories. Sad that it can't be divided from the destructive, historically specific nonsense that people use to hurt each other.

Gotta run and get back to destroying the institution of marriage.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by sparky
Gotta run and get back to destroying the institution of marriage.

Were you in SFCA last weekend