FM Family Tree - Page 4

wetcamelfood · #46 08-06-2002, 06:18 AM

This is from page 112 of Bob Brunning's "Blues: The British Connection" (attached). Maybe this isn't "concrete" but it does state that Dave Bidwell was on drums in The Muskrats. I've got a few other pages that state this too (like in the Peter Green bio etc.) but I sent this one as it talks about both bands here.

I'm sure I did read somewhere (though I can't remember for the life of me where) that Beck's Tridents was a different band to PG's Tridents (another case of "not to be confused with..."). I'll see if I have anything that says this on paper but I don't think I do. If I do though, I'll scan it here.

John

chiliD · #47 08-06-2002, 09:15 AM

That's right, John, there were two (if not more) bands named "The Tridents"...just so happened that Jeff Beck was in one, Peter Green in another. Who knew then that they'd eventually be rock legends?

bjk3047 · #48 08-06-2002, 05:54 PM

I added two pieces of Savoy Brown for Bob Brunning:
http://www.geocities.com/bri3047/familytree.html

Earlier, John posted this:
Group: Jeremy Spencer & The Children
Time line: 1972?
Members: JS (gtr/keyboards/voc), Michael (gtr/har/voc), Phil Ham (gtr/flute/sitar), Moriah (voc/tamb), Boaz (bass/voc/recorder), Ginnethon (drums)

I found this on The Penguin:
In 1975 Jeremy Spencer returned to London and formed a group called Albatross with other Children Of God members.
Same group?

And just checking, did Peter Green support his post-FM albums with tours? I just had my reservations with a guy like him

Oh and by the way, I took Steve Thoma off the Time lineup, after further consideration, he doesn't count. I was just thinking in terms of replacing Christine, but still, not enough.
-Brian

chiliD · #49 08-06-2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

In 1975 Jeremy Spencer returned to London and formed a group called Albatross with other Children Of God members

What turned out to be the "Jeremy Spencer Band"...which released the album "Flee".

Pete Green toured Europe with Kolors & Katmandu. (refer to Jet Celmins' bio of Peter)

wetcamelfood · #50 08-07-2002, 07:43 AM

I don't mean to confuse things but as I notcied at the tree site that you had Chicken Shack listed as the one lineup the whole time from 65-69, as I say, it's fine with me if it's kept this way (and it might have to be as there are no dates on the attached info and it was the Bidwell lineup that cut all of the early Shack recordings anyways) but I just though I'd pass along the info so it can be hashed around. The attached snippet is from the UK "40 Blue fungers..." Chicken Shack CD...

...it seems there were two drummers previous to Bidwell in Chicken Shack. I do have one picture each from the Morley & Sykes lineups but no dates (or "date useful" captions) on either of them. So, like with what you had rightly decided about Steve Thoma etc. you may choose to leave these two guys off too but at least the option is there for you. I'll keep digging for more specific dates on them but I don't know if I'll be able to find anything on them or not.

Also, I wasn't sure if "Savoy Brown 1" should be "Sep-Oct" and 2 should be Oct-Dec as Brunning left FM to go to SB and as it looks now the dates overlap (as it is, this wasn't the first lineup of SB but it was the first for FM involvement and of course they will be coming back later for Dave Walker). I know we don't have documentation of an actual FM leaving date for him yet but until we do I didn't know if we should assume that he was with FM for Aug and then Mcvie came to FM in Sep? Whatever is cool with me though. I hope this is of some help and doesn't make things worse!

John

bjk3047 · #51 08-07-2002, 09:48 AM

Right, that doesn't make sense as I look at it. I read in a SB bio that Brunning left in August and went on that. Although, I doesn't quite make sense, as the Windsor festival was in August. Soo, I changed SB's dates to Sep-Nov and Nov-Dec.
So we have established that the two Jeremy Spencer references are separare entities? Figuring out that is the only thing keeping me from moving on to post-FM Kirwan.
Two holes I have that maybe someone could help with:

The Seven Souls 1964-1969
Bob Welch guit/voc
Henry Thomson bass
?????????? I'm stuck past that

Peter Green 1985
Peter Green guit
Vincent Crane ?
Jeff Wittaker drums
Ray Dorset ?

-Brian

greatdarkwing · #52 08-07-2002, 12:17 PM

I need to comment that you guys are doing a FABULOUS job with this.....It is so cool that Ledgies can band together and do such a great job. Keep it up!

Thanks!

~Alex

wetcamelfood · #53 08-07-2002, 03:17 PM

Thanks Alex! We really hope we get this thing right!

Now Brian, I'm stuck on the Seven Souls too. I found this part of an answer from Bob Welch at the Bob Welch Penguin Q & A:

The Seven Souls were actually part of a large group of players in LA, that were all in different bands, but sort of trying to do the same thing. There was the 'Souls, there were the guys, Bobby Watson and Tony Maiden, who later, with Chaka Kahn, turned into "Rufus",.

...so I don't know if this means that Watson & Maiden were there (and if they were, what instruments they played). Bob did say at another point in the Q & A that "Bobby Hunt" was "an old buddy of (his) from The Seven Souls". I noticed that a Robert Hunt played keyboards in Welch's next band Head West so I would assume this is one in the same person as well. Past that, I'm stuck. I've got The Seven Souls singles (except one) I know of that exist but there's nothing on them that suggests any further data on their personnel. I'll keep digging though. Oh, I forgot, a 7S tune, "I'm no stranger" was written by Welch and an "H. Moore" (and it's B-side "I still love you" was written by this "H. Moore" too) once again, I would assume that this is Henry Moore, the drummer in Head West but no way to tell (if that's of any help but it probably makes it more confusing!)

Yeah, I agree, I would guess that Jeremy's bands were "seperate entitties" as you had guessed but I really can't say for sure as I had passed on all I had on that stuff earlier. Hopefully someone else can pass anything further they may have on this topic on here.

Now, it sounds like this "Peter Green 1985" deal you have listed is Katmandu and I must admit, I had forgotten all about them when I had listed his post FM stuff so here's what the album's got listed:

PG (voc/gtr/harmonica), Vincent Crane (keyboards), Jeff Whittaker (percussion/voc), Ray Dorset (voc/gtr/harmonica), Greg Terry-Short (drums), Len Surtees (bass).

....Sue Marshall & Terri Crazel are also listed as backing vocalists but I'll assume they're not part of the "band" and they list some other facts like how Peter plays drums on one soing (!) but I'll leave that out of his "core" instrument duties! It says that the recording for the album took place from Dec '83 to Feb '84. I'll see if I can find out if they played any gigs but I don't know if I'll find anything. If I do, I'll post it here. Hope this helps.

John

chiliD · #54 08-07-2002, 04:18 PM

Just because they're on my mind...take these with a grain of salt; just kind of "stream of consciousness"-ly posting here.

Chicken Shack (post-Christine):
Stan Webb-guitar, vocals
Dave Bidwell-drums
Andy Sylvester-bass
Paul Raymond replaced Christine on keyboards.

Take this incarnation of CS, subtract Stan Webb, add Kim Simmonds & Dave Walker, you have the "Street Corner Talking"/"Lion's Share" incarnation of Savoy Brown---After this lineup broke up (or was disbanded), Paul Raymond went on to join "U.F.O." (remember "Lights Out In London" and the great "Where's Michael Schenker?" fiasco?)---this incarnation of Savoy Brown as a unit replaced:

Dave Peverett (guitar), Tone Stevens (bass), Roger Earl (drums) who bailed out of Savoy Brown en masse to form Foghat

bjk3047 · #55 08-07-2002, 08:10 PM

Thanks Alex! Feel free to join in the fray!

For Henry Thomson info, refer here: http://members.cox.net/jjp62/ht.htm
I think if we can muster up one more member of Seven Souls to make 4 total, we can safely have enough to list it and put "several others" i.e. Bo Street Runners. I can't remember if the entries John had for JS were for albums or the live band as we were still working that out at the time. Or are they the same? After JS, if I caught chiliD right, we can hold off on Peter Green as he only toured twice in the 80's and go straight to Kirwan. Hey, this thing's moving along!

-Brian

wetcamelfood · #56 08-08-2002, 07:02 AM

I think I confused the 7S issue with the Bob Welch quote from the Q & A as now that I re-read it, it doesn't look like Maiden & Watsom were in there. Sorry!

...but, as we seem to have Welch, Thomson, Moore, & Hunt, that would be the "mandatory" 4 you spoke of so do you think we could get away with that for now (with the "several others" tag you had mentioned)?

Okie doak, I'm cool with the PG thing.

...and yes, the JS stuff I listed was just from the albums, I just hit a brick wall when trying to find out anything on his live stuff from his solo days (with the exception of the India 99 thing as that album IS live so...

Now, Danny, let's see, you've got Boilerhouse so that's his "pre" taken care of (and you've got Tramp of course). Hmm, I'm not sure if he toured with Chris Youlden or not, I'll have to check. However, in regards to his solo stuff I don't think he ever played a "solo" gig live as such due to the fact that the Jo Ann Kelly "Tramp 1974" album notes that the live BBC stuff from that CD was "Danny's last known live performance" etc. so I can list the album personnel from DK's solo outings if you wish but I wasn't sure if you wanted that in this case or not. Let me know.

John

bjk3047 · #57 08-08-2002, 01:42 PM

Oh right! Sorry, when you made reference to Herny Moore, I was thinking of Henry Thomson. So yes, we do have 4, and yes, it has been added.

Yeah, same here, JS in India's all I got. Just so I know, do you know when in '99 he started the tour? He finished in March of '00.

We do have to do a little decyphering of the Tramp tree that you posted before though, as some of it refers to studio work. Should I just take it to mean that the second album's support tour was by the second group listed?

I would think if DK's last known performance was in '74 and all 3 of his albums were '75 and on, I think it's safe to leave them off.
-Brian

wetcamelfood · #58 08-08-2002, 04:28 PM

Brian,

Regarding JS it says this in the CD notes for "India live '99":

"Jeremy Spencer's recent tour in India, in January 1998 was done on behalf of the National Association for the Blind in India. (etc.)"

...so, I don't know if they are saying that it STARTED in Jan '98 or if the ENTIRE India TOUR was in the whole month of 1/98. I'm assuming it was in that month that this CD was recorded as it does state that it is a CD for the NAB of India. Hmm, I guess we should just assume it started then and ended when you noted but I'll go with whatever you guys think.

Now Tramp, well because they were this "side" band and Brunning had no idea what was going on with the Mac at the time and knowing what he/we know now it was very good of Fleetwood/Kirwan to have taken part etc. etc. etc. and I understand that it has been insinuated that it was felt a relief to get the BBC session over with without too much trouble (Danny's "condition" etc.) so, with that (apparently) being the case, I don't think Tramp ever did any other live gigs/tours (that I know of or have read of/can find) so I guess the BBC tracks on the "Tramp 1974" CD would in effect be their only "live line up" (unless anyone else out there has any corrections to this)

so just to clarify, the lineup for those live BBC tracks on "Tramp 1974" is: (Jo Ann) Kelly, Hall, Brunning, Kirwan, Brooks, Hartley.

Oh, and leaving off the DK solo stuff is fine with me. You're right Brian, this sure IS moving along!

John

chiliD · #59 08-08-2002, 04:35 PM

BUT...there are so many ironic things about the crew that played on Danny's solo stuff, you SHOULD include them.

A quick few examples:

Andy Sylvester, the Chicken Shack/Savoy Brown bass player, was the bass player on the Second Chapter album

Paul Raymond- Chicken Shack/Savoy Brown/UFO keyboardist played on Second Chapter.

Geoff Britton-drummer on the Second Chapter album did a stint in Paul McCartney's Wings (between Denny Seiwell and Joe English) and played on most of the "Venus & Mars" album; and for a time was a member of Manfred Mann's Earth Band (he replaced Chris Slade)

Bob Weston, Danny's "replacement" in FMac played on his "Hello There Big Boy" album.

Kirby & Steve Cook (guitarist & bass player respectively) who played on both the "Midnight In San Juan" & "Hello There Big Boy" albums were members of "Stretch" (aka "the phony Fleetwood Mac" in 1973) whose membership ALSO included at one point Nigel Watson, co-founder of the Splinter Group.

I think Danny's solo career is worth delving into.

wetcamelfood · #60 08-09-2002, 01:28 PM

Oh yeah, geez, all these connections, I knew about Britton being in MMEB of course but didn't know about him being in Wings. I guess it's especially ironic he was in Wings around the VAM period as it was on "Listen to what the man said" (from "Venus and Mars") that Dave Mason played on!

Well as I say, either way is fine with me Brian.

John