So Much for Sep. of Church and State

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by LongBlackScarf

I expect him to realize that not ALL the people of American are Christians. I know I have a Jewish friend who becomes very upset with Bush mentions "Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior" in his speeches. That should just NOT be happening. If he wants to urge us to pray, then he's postering himself as an evangelist, and not a President. The President should represent all peoples in this nation, and respect all faiths, including the fine upstanding people here who are atheists. One more thing....since hurricanes are considered "Acts Of God" just WTF are we praying FOR, anyway? That Big Bad God doesn't whack us again??

The Jewish don't pray?

[LongBlackScarf]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

The Jewish don't pray?

They sure as hell don't pray to Jesus. If you're trying to make some sort of point, be more specific in your post.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

But you are doing an awful lot of assuming that he is "commanding" all Americans to pray. If you don't pray, then think of it as a "good thoughts" day.

1. He called on "all Amercians" not just people of faith in an official Order.

2. Why couldn't he have said "If you don't pray, then think of it as a 'good thoughts' day" instead of excluding those people in the phrase "all Americans?" Instead, he refers only to "Almighty God," which panders mostly to the Judeo Christians only. That is so obvious it is almost laughable.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

1. He called on "all Amercians" not just people of faith in an official Order.

2. Why couldn't he have said "If you don't pray, then think of it as a 'good thoughts' day" instead of excluding those people in the phrase "all Americans?" Instead, he refers only to "Almighty God," which panders mostly to the Judeo Christians only. That is so obvious it is almost laughable.

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator"

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now....

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by LongBlackScarf

They sure as hell don't pray to Jesus. If you're trying to make some sort of point, be more specific in your post.

He didn't say pray to "Jesus"...I don't know...I could be wrong.

[LongBlackScarf]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

He didn't say pray to "Jesus"...I don't know...I could be wrong.

You should read posts more carefully before you respond to them. Re-read my post and maybe you'll get what I was saying about Jesus. It has nothing to do with this current "call to prayer" he's doing. I was speaking about my Jewish friend(s) and their disgust that Bush is always yappin' about his savior. Even in public speeches.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator" Also, Providence is a goddess - so should we assume they meant to pray to her, though they mostly likely did not mean it that way?

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now....

What a cop out and typical for you - when faced with facts you either retreat or spin it to Clinton

On edit - the words "creator" and "God" are not in the Const. and were purposefully left out. Nice try though.

Also, the Declaration of Ind. does not urge people to pray only to the Judeo Christian God. Rather, it speaks far more generally, to wit:

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator"

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now....

Well Geez Louise - Hell MUST be freezing over because we seem to agree on something again...'


I agree - it's not like he's making it LAW that people pray - there's no penalty for not praying- no one will chastise you (not anyone that matters anyway) if you don't pray

Now if he enacted a law COMMANDING that all Americans pray his way -then ok there would be a problem.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Now if he enacted a law COMMANDING that all Americans pray his way -then ok there would be a problem.

Calling upon "all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is problem enough.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

What a cop out and typical for you - when faced with facts you either retreat or spin it to Clinton

Oh Jesus. (ah...kinda fits the theme...huh?)

And then you have to go and say stuff like that. I was actually being very serious. You know some of us actually have lives outside of the ledge...so I can't devote all of my time to this.

And then you have to go all the way back to the thread, which is dead now, where I answered every single one of your questions, with facts and links...hell...even charts and graphs. But in return you never answered my question and I watched as the thread faded away. You keep complaining that I don't support my opinions with facts, yet when I do, it's not good enough and you run away from the thread all together.

[LongBlackScarf]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

I agree - it's not like he's making it LAW that people pray - there's no penalty for not praying.

Oh, am pretty sure that all of Bush's sheep will feel they WILL be struck down by "Almighty God" if they DON'T pray. This is just his way of continuing to manipulate the American people...most of whom believe in this stuff; most of whom are "Christians" just like himself. What makes me the most ill is THIS aspect of his wanting Americans to pray all day. Again, what good does he think it is going to do? How people can think it will change the way the planet is destined to operate!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Calling upon "all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is problem enough.

People just cannot see that that phrase is a reaffirming of "their" belief that to be a good American, you must be a Christian. I mean he says "all Americans" - I get that it is not a law, but it still is a slap in the face to those who do not believe in that. Again, if he had said the alternate things discussed above, it would have been fine. But, he just can't resist the insult.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. [QUOTE]

my point.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Oh Jesus. (ah...kinda fits the theme...huh?)

And then you have to go and say stuff like that. I was actually being very serious. You know some of us actually have lives outside of the ledge...so I can't devote all of my time to this.

And then you have to go all the way back to the thread, which is dead now, where I answered every single one of your questions, with facts and links...hell...even charts and graphs. But in return you never answered my question and I watched as the thread faded away. You keep complaining that I don't support my opinions with facts, yet when I do, it's not good enough and you run away from the thread all together.

You didn't answer squat with any reason or fact to support you - again, if the military was in such shambles, how did W ever manage the campaigns in Afgan and Iraq - much less the fact that W did NOTHING to "rebuild" the allegedly fallen military prior to 9/11. Nice try though - actuall, it was not even a nice try, it was rather pathetic.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

my point.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

Yes, and that is a general statement as almost all religions have Creators. They did not say "Almighty God," which mostly is the Judeo-Christian God. But, you, of course, apparently take that to mean that high sign to the Christians I referred to earlier. Have you ever read the documents surrounding the creation of the DOI and the Const. They purposefully excluded any discussion of religion in any specific terms because they thought govt. has no business in religion.