Mick and Stevie RULE!!!

[face of glass]

I guess innovation is something that isn’t entirely original but I think it’s something that introduces a new concept.

The Beatles’ Revolver has been cited as the opening call of psychedelic music but even then in America The Byrds had released 5D (which features “Eight Miles High” and other attempts at psychedelia) and the 13th Floor Elevators had put out their first album which can be spoken of as psychedelic too.

Revolver is influenced by the Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds, those two mentioned above, Bob Dylan’s Highway 61 Revisited (and Blonde On Blonde) [all of those innovative] and George Martin brings his classical training to the table. Not to mention the experiments with tapes which probably come from Stockhausen, etc.

Yet the album is still innovative because it takes things previously unheard of in rock music and puts them into that context. It was influenced by the stuff that preceded it, yes, but it also influenced stuff that came after it.

Sgt. Pepper also, that album influenced several English bands and even though not everyone did a carbon copy of it (and I don’t think even Satanic Majesties’ is one), some did. Of course the most important thing it introduced was a particular attitude or form, a song cycle; that an album could tell a story through its songs.

And I wouldn’t say that the White Album is innovative, other than for its sheer scope. It’s the one I reach for the most anyway. Putting “Revolution 9” and “Good Night” next to each other was just sheer genius.

No one has really spoken of Lindsey as innovative or even very influential and while that tells us of his under-appreciation, it also tells us of the state of rock music today (so he probably entered the scene too late to make any big impression in that area). It may have seemed to have limitless possibilities once but now it doesn’t. I’m not gonna join Lenny Kravitz and say it’s dead but you probably get my meaning somehow.

[teedee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by face of glass
[B]Let’s deal with SN first, shall we? I’m not going to pit them against each other in any other way than musically. I think both have gotten over the supposed “battle of wills” (or, rather, battle for getting more public attention than the other) that was discussed at the BuckinghamNicks.net board a while ago and that’s good for them. But the differences in their music can be discussed and I still try to make clear that although I criticize Stevie’s music I still enjoy it a lot overall. In fact, I should go to the Stevie forum and start that “Docklands” appreciation thread where I will be the only poster.

And I ain’t trying to win anything
These are the closest she’s got to the “deep-reaching, impenetrable artistic sense” and that’s the attitude I personally hate. Thank God she’s never showed any of that in her interviews but the fact that some fans (not meaning Johnny Stew) hold these as her greatest masterpieces and bash songs like “SYW” is nothing but reflection of the mentality that “she’s too good to appeal to the masses”.

Again, it’s the same thing we discussed last year:



To which I then replied:





The only experiments in “Illume” come from Lindsey Buckingham’s screeching guitars and goofy vocals. I daresay that the obsessive delivery that Stevie has in that track (and is unlike anything she’s been attempting before) came about only when she did the final take. And I will hold that opinion until the demo is leaked.



*joins sighing and swooning* But it disappeared pretty fast, already on the TITN tour it was gone.



Depth is something that only the fans (or those with the potential) are capable of hearing.



Because Stevie Nicks doesn’t experiment in her songwriting; the form does not allow for stretching out anymore.
If there’s any experimentation on her songs, it comes from elsewhere than SN. Breaking the rules isn’t possible for
"Syha, fro example. you stated you dont think lindsey wrote it to sound commercial"

but he used it on the syw cd. why is it that formula of music is ok for lindsey to use and not ok for stevie. why is it when stevie writes a song its because she was thinking commercial , i do agree stevie writes a song like say you will and hopes ppl will like it, but i dont think she always has that on her mind when she is writing. another thing if we are talking musically, yeah lindsey is a genious of a guitar player, he is my fave and will always be. when we are talking lyric wise, i do not see lindsey as a great one for words, call it experimenting call it what ever, but with the exception of out of the cradle , his other solos to me when i listened to them , they never made me think wow he is a genious , i often felt, what is he doing or trying to do, i felt he was at a lost for words, so he used noises and such. when ootc came out, i fell in love with it , with every song practically, and why because lindsey was singing . you may say well you just didnt get his other solo material, and you know what maybe i didnt get it , but i will just be honest and say i didnt like it, it didnt appeal to me at all not lyrcally, or musically. i mean trouble, was good, but as some would say that was a more commercial ,( forlack of a better word) sounding song, than the other material. on say you will , i think come and murrow, yeah are true lindsey type songs that he would love to have more of, but i also think with the rest of his material on this syw cd, syha, pk,wtwct,sg,btlh, altho i like these songs, but i think these are more safe sounding lindsey songs that will appeal to the average listeners ears, rather than the die hard fan who loves his really obscure sounding material. i think rttg,efo, say, illume, (altho you will state that lindseys genious production is on those songs, and im not arguing that at all) im talking lyric wise, i think those songs of stevies are less commercial sounding than lindseys,and even saying that , i do think they appeal more to the general listener than just the die hards.

[face of glass]

Sheesz Teedee, you don't have to quote the entire post. Makes it easier to browse through for some.

Originally posted by teedee
"Syha, fro example. you stated you dont think lindsey wrote it to sound commercial"

but he used it on the syw cd. why is it that formula of music is ok for lindsey to use and not ok for stevie. why is it when stevie writes a song its because she was thinking commercial , i do agree stevie writes a song like say you will and hopes ppl will like it, but i dont think she always has that on her mind when she is writing.

I said in my post that Stevie always writes from the heart and I don't even believe that "Say You Will" was written with commercial intentions in mind; it was just produced that way.

And the same I will say about "SYHA" too, even though I've never been particularly fond of it. (I think it's the weakest on the entire Say You Will album.)

i think those songs of stevies are less commercial sounding than lindseys,and even saying that , i do think they appeal more to the general listener than just the die hards.

It's your opinion. And it's my opinion when I say that nothing Lindsey has done is inaccessible and is appealing if listened to from different angles. But I do say that it might take a little more struggle than seems to be required of listeners today to get through to some of his material because of the diversity that he has.

You want to hear something inaccessible, you go listen to Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music. Or Tangerine Dream's Electronic Meditation.

[teedee]

Originally posted by face of glass
Hey, I agree with that but like I said, I left the lyrics out of my part of discussion yet again.



Put someone else to sing those and then we'll see how much attraction it has. Maybe you and DownOnRodeo ought to work together in order to convince me.

huh?


Yeah, I agree. But there's different levels in that. SN has changed according to the commerical climate while Buckingham is still the eccentric '60s hippie smoking pot and fooling around in the garage with his various sounds. Maybe he's just dated.


first everyone states, nicks never changes and thats suppose to be bad, but lindsey is eccentric for staying in his hippie ways,




You can be on a large label but you don't have to do everything the label says or completely give in on musical issues. Lindsey doesn't and I believe Stevie doesn't either. She just has better business sense.

hmmmmm and the result you dont release a solo cd!

[face of glass]

Originally posted by teedee
hmmmmm and the result you dont release a solo cd!

If that's the result for giving in on a lot of the diversity that Lindsey Buckingham can achieve, then so be it. He doesn't have to delete the "questionable" material because someone says so.

I think Say You Will isn't that much of a compromise anyway, because Lindsey can express himself through Stevie's songs as well. Those always bring out some sides of him that wouldn't come out otherwise.

[face of glass]

Oh yeah, there's this too.

first everyone states, nicks never changes and thats suppose to be bad, but lindsey is eccentric for staying in his hippie ways,

I never said it's bad but it's something I don't prefer.

Lindsey isn't a '60s nostalgic (how could he be, he never wrote a single song during the decade anyway) but he retains that important attitude from the era.


(Damn, what a way to get the "addicted" status. I got it bad alright.)

[teedee]

Originally posted by face of glass
If that's the result for giving in on a lot of the diversity that Lindsey Buckingham can achieve, then so be it. He doesn't have to delete the "questionable" material because someone says so.

I think Say You Will isn't that much of a compromise anyway, because Lindsey can express himself through Stevie's songs as well. Those always bring out some sides of him that would


n't come out otherwise.

you stated yyou dont have to do what the record label says, if that were true then he still would of mad e a solo, but he didnt.


as for expressing himself thru stevies songs , sure he is a great producer and guitarist, but what if stevie werent in this fm project? if he firmly believes in his work and material as a solo, he should of done the solo, but the record company didnt back him and thats why we have fm's syw and if stevie didnt agree to be part of it, we wouldnt have any of this material. and please dont tell me then lindsey weould of released his solo, because if he could have , he would have , but he didnt have the backing .

[teedee]

Originally posted by face of glass
Oh yeah, there's this too.



I never said it's bad but it's something I don't prefer.

Lindsey isn't a '60s nostalgic (how could he be, he never wrote a single song during the decade anyway) but he retains that important attitude from the era.


(Damn, what a way to get the "addicted" status. I got it bad alright.)

THat important additude? is it helping his career or hurting it.. i love lindsey and i believe that the concert syw will get him alot of respect so that if he does release that solo, he will have a chance with some kind o f recognition,( i know he isnt after that, but thats sometimes reflects how successfull yo are in the business)

[face of glass]

Originally posted by teedee
if he firmly believes in his work and material as a solo, he should of done the solo, but the record company didnt back him and thats why we have fm's syw and if stevie didnt agree to be part of it, we wouldnt have any of this material.

It’s true I guess, but I think Warners aren’t interested in anything but Stevie Nicks and Fleetwood Mac with Stevie Nicks at this moment.

The reason why he didn’t release the solo elsewhere is in my opinion this: Lindsey Buckingham loves to play his little perverted game inside the music business machinery. He loves being the one in this line-up who clings the least to the common understanding of Fleetwood Mac and their music. He knew Fleetwood Mac were going to get their act back together, he hadn’t finished Gift Of Screws when he did the Dance tour and the whole reunion told him that if he wouldn’t get his solo album out, he’d always have a back gate, provided that he wouldn't have to compromise much. Which I think he didn't.

And I’m sure he just loves to work on Stevie’s songs.

If Stevie would have not wanted to do SYW then Lindsey wouldn’t have had the back gate and at that point I believe he would have left Warners.

(This all assuming that Lindsey can terminate his contract at any point. No one has seen it anyway and yet we all keep on making assumptions of its content.)

[face of glass]

Originally posted by teedee
THat important additude? is it helping his career or hurting it.. i love lindsey and i believe that the concert syw will get him alot of respect so that if he does release that solo, he will have a chance with some kind o f recognition,( i know he isnt after that, but thats sometimes reflects how successfull yo are in the business)

Maybe that attitude isn't helping him now. But in the future no one will listen to records because of their chart positions or because of their historical/sociological package. There's just the music. And I have a feeling that DIVERSE music (at least in the area we know as "rock and roll") will hold up much better in the end.

No more replies today from me to this. “There’s more to life than the Ledge, you know, but not much more”.

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
That's the downside of these debates... a lot of times only one side of how you see something, comes across.

That's understandable. Lots of people rarely have any criticisms to make of their favorites, whether that's Lindsey or Stevie or Peter or any of the others. It's important for anyone who wants to be seen by others as balanced to rip new assholes from time to time in all their favorites! I personally follow that path & find it satisfying & rewarding.

[David]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
...why does this always have to turn into some melodramatic Lindsey VS Stevie thing? ALWAYS. Tired and old. Seriously. And before someone chimes in and says I don't need to read the thread and could ignore it, I know. However, It's now crossed into each section of the message board whether it be Rumours (where it's featured in multiple threads), Stevie, or Lindsey and it's always the same long winded diatribes.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

[David]

Originally posted by cliffdweller
I don't know if commercialism is the issue. RAL is her weakest album because it was just flat uninspired (quickly ducks head for fear of rock throwing). I think Stevie should branch out, just not in that way.

How can RAL be both uninspired & a "branching out"? Something must have inspired Stevie to branch out, no?

Illume is a great example of Stevie branching outside her tried and true formula and producing amazing music. IMO, she should experiment more in that type of vein.

What type of vein?

[David]

Originally posted by teedee
if he firmly believes in his work and material as a solo, he should of done the solo, but the record company didnt back him and thats why we have fm's syw and if stevie didnt agree to be part of it, we wouldnt have any of this material. and please dont tell me then lindsey weould of released his solo, because if he could have , he would have , but he didnt have the backing .

Lindsey is never going to be wildly popular, either on his own or with Fleetwood. He should choose -- especially at this point in his life -- to forswear the toadying careerism of popular rock stars by following Emily Dickinson's example. She wasn't published in her lifetime, except for a straggly few poems, which were doctored almost beyond recognizability. She was disgusted when that happened & refused to publish anything else. But she homed in on her art with singlemindedness & kept writing HER voice. They found her work in a dresser after she died. The upshot is that we read her work today, more than a century later, & consider her the greatest woman poet of modern times.

An artist should write for the future, not the present. The present is too confused: it's a jumbled mass of contradictions & incomprehension & vulgarity & derision. Look to the future, Lindsey! Shun the careerists & self-advertisers by refusing to write for consumption now.

[Mari]

yes, if he wants to be a real artist, he should die alone, pennyless and unhappy