W shows true abortion colors

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

It worked for Ken Starr.

That man should forever be ashamed of himself. I wouldn't read a page of his "report". Idiot.

[SuzeQuze]

It is a difficult issue. That's why I think the families involved should make their own choice about it and it's no one else's business, IMO. I do think girls/women should be thoroughly informed before they do it, not with scary bullsh*t but with the facts. Perhaps even discouraged from having an abortion, maybe with the stories of other women who've done it. My mom had me at 17 (barely 17) and would have never considered an abortion. She was going to give me up for adoption due to pressure from her father but he eventually told her to take me home, after which I became the apple of his eye (well, as much "apple" as a gruff man can have).

I knew a couple of girls in high school who each had 2 abortions which was scary to me. Someone I know had one and the got pregnant a year later and had the baby. She felt pressured into having the abortion to begin with because of her family. She was extremely immature and the father is an ass. But it's what she wanted.

It should always be legal because the back alley abortion is just horrendous, IMO. Also because the woman needs to have rights over her own body.

Originally Posted by wondergirl9847

It's such an extremely touchy subject. I see both sides. I can see where pro-lifers are coming from (well, SOME of them) in that they only wanna protect those with no voice/choice. On the flip side, I see the pro-choicers stance too regarding the woman having the choice on what to do with her body.

My friend was 19 when she got pregnant out of wedlock and her parents tried to talk her into getting one. She brought me and another friend of ours together one night to tell us. We all cried and talked about the pros and cons. I was VERY pro-life then and begged her not to because I knew she would regret it. I just knew she would. She didn't wanna go against her mother (she's Chinese) because of the strong family thing, but yet she wanted to have the baby. She had a very diffucult decision to make. She married the dad, had the baby and has 2 little girls now.

My mom worked for a lady who's daughter was VERY promiscuous and had LOTS of abortions when she was in high school. Her mom has mental issues and her dad is not a nice man. Sad.

It's a difficult issue.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

The fact that you pro-lifers CONTINUALLY discount the woman as a factor PROVES TO ME that your TRUE agenda is further erosion of a Woman's basic rights.

Mary, there are plenty of WOMEN who are pro-life. I am one of them.

It's not about politics, it's about whether or not you believe a fetus "counts" as a human being. I know you care about children, Mary, and if you believed that the fetus was a baby, you'd stand up for the baby's rights. It's just that you don't see the fetus that way. Can't you understand, though, how someone who DOES believe that the fetus is a baby would be against abortion? Can't you see there's more to it than some kind of power plays and politics?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

. . . Can't you see there's more to it than some kind of power plays and politics?

ITA - and I also think that the pro-choice people shoot themselves in the foot with their slippery slope arguments. But having said that, the politicians and the Catholic Church (and other churches) put abortion on the level of power plays. As I have said before, why is it the Catholic Church spread the word from the pulpit and in the media that a vote for Kerry was sacreligious because Kerry and the D's support abortion, which is a sin. Yet, that same entity did not also point out that a vote for W and other R's was two similar sins as the RCC was solidly against the unholy war in Iraq and it considers the death penalty a sin. I mean they chose to make abortion more of a sin than two other sins, both of which claimed innocent lives (innocent people have been put to death). So, I have to conclude that while abortion remains a huge moral dilema for which I know of no solution other than individual choice (which is why it is called pro-choice) - the politcos of the world use abortion as a tool to get into power and the reason they use it is because they can prey on peoples' religious beliefs to their advantage AND - both sides do it

The same thing applies for gay marriage. With all that is going to hell in a handbasket in the world, all the war, famine, and pestilence - the prime concern was whether two people of the same sex can have access to the same rights automatically afforded a heterosexual couple and sometimes to the exclusion of all others, e.g., spousal benefits in Social Security cannot be willed to anyone yet a spouse may have access to them just because they were married. I mean who, in the end, really cares about that when all of this other horrid stuff is happening. Who would not say, I vote to expend my resources to end world hunger? Yet, politicians and the Churches prey on peoples' hate of gay people to drive a wedge their way in the voting masses.

Anyway - food for thought and I am speaking in general terms and not assigning these atributes to you

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Diss' evidence seems pretty circumstantial to me. You're the lawyer, you tell me how solid it is.

She goes from living in a studio apartment and making $13,000 as a waitress to buying a $500,000 home in Corpus Christi six months later. Sounds fishy to me.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

She goes from living in a studio apartment and making $13,000 as a waitress to buying a $500,000 home in Corpus Christi six months later. Sounds fishy to me.

Do you see the hypocisy and the irony of getting live in the "Body of Christ" by being bought off and lying about an abortion

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

ITA - and I also think that the pro-choice people shoot themselves in the foot with their slippery slope arguments. But having said that, the politicians and the Catholic Church (and other churches) put abortion on the level of power plays. As I have said before, why is it the Catholic Church spread the word from the pulpit and in the media that a vote for Kerry was sacreligious because Kerry and the D's support abortion, which is a sin. Yet, that same entity did not also point out that a vote for W and other R's was two similar sins as the RCC was solidly against the unholy war in Iraq and it considers the death penalty a sin. I mean they chose to make abortion more of a sin than two other sins, both of which claimed innocent lives (innocent people have been put to death). So, I have to conclude that while abortion remains a huge moral dilema for which I know of no solution other than individual choice (which is why it is called pro-choice) - the politcos of the world use abortion as a tool to get into power and the reason they use it is because they can prey on peoples' religious beliefs to their advantage AND - both sides do it

Well, politicos use any and all issues as power plays, so I'm not sure why abortion is getting set apart here.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Well, politicos use any and all issues as power plays, so I'm not sure why abortion is getting set apart here.

Well, it is the issue de jour and has ben since Roe, though IMO more so now - I mean the RCC specifically told people that a vote for Kerry was a sin - but did not apply the same standard to Bush. I have never seen that before

In the end, it really is a poverty thing. History xclearly demonstrates the middle class and rich will always be able to pay sone doctor to hide the scandal. The poor however, will not have that option. Thus, they will more likely die from a hatchet job than the middle class or rich.

[irishgrl]

I was WAITING for someone to say this, and I mighta known it'd be YOU Nancy!

Mary, there are plenty of WOMEN who are pro-life. I am one of them.

here's where I draw the line: Im not saying a fetus doesnt have the right to live, Im saying only the pregnant mother HERSELF has the right to say what she can do with HER OWN body. You, as a woman, can choose to keep YOUR baby. Just as any other pregnant mother can do. But the minute ANYONE tells me what I should do with MY body, its clobberin' time
and if you forget the MOTHER's needs/rights/situation and ONLY think about the baby then YOU are as guilty of tunnel vision as the MEN who are legislating this.

For you, because you ARE a woman, you have an innate maternal instinct. Abortion goes AGAINST a woman's NATURAL inclination, HOWEVER: There are going to be circumstances and situations and issues that each particular woman weighs before she EVER goes into an abortion clinic. Believe me, abortion is not a day in the park. it is painful, it is scary and you live with the knowledge that THAT fetus will never BE. But that is just IT! if a woman is THAT desperate that abortion is her only answer (the last resort) then there is something terribly WRONG in that woman's life and bringing a new life into a less than optimal situation is just as bad if not worse then preventing it from being. My position is that its not MY place (or ANYONE'S place) to tell another person how to live their life.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, it is the issue de jour and has ben since Roe, though IMO more so now - I mean the RCC specifically told people that a vote for Kerry was a sin - but did not apply the same standard to Bush. I have never seen that before

In the end, it really is a poverty thing. History xclearly demonstrates the middle class and rich will always be able to pay sone doctor to hide the scandal. The poor however, will not have that option. Thus, they will more likely die from a hatchet job than the middle class or rich.

I previously mentioned on another thread that the legislation TARGETS the poor. it denies federal monies to PUBLIC clinics who perform abortions, such as Planned Parenthood and the like. The sad fact of the matter is the group least able to afford MORE children will continue to have MORE children. especially if birth control is limited or costly and sex education doesnt EDUCATE.

[Sugar]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end, it really is a poverty thing. History xclearly demonstrates the middle class and rich will always be able to pay sone doctor to hide the scandal. The poor however, will not have that option. Thus, they will more likely die from a hatchet job than the middle class or rich.

Which kinda of brings me to something I've been thinking about for a while...if the pro-lifers TRUELY want to bring about a "culture of life" (or however it is that they put it), why are they not fighting for ways to take the economical impact out of the childbirth situation.

For example, fight for the Family Leave Act to include some sort of pay. After all, if every woman who concieves will be forced to give birth it seems really crappy to subject her to up to three months with no pay. What if she's single? What if her husband is an alcoholic with no job?

I believe there are states who don't allow welfare recipiants to get any more money if they have children after they are on the system. Seems like that needs to go away if women have to have the child.

I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that always come to mind first. It really bugs me that the entire abortion discussion ends at the ninth month.

Abortion is not an easy or an enviable choice to most people. If a woman decides it's what has to happen, that's between her and her God. If the state can't offer her equal protection (loss of benefits or pay qualifies, IMO), then the state has no business being in it. And if the state isn't prepared to deal with ALL of the ramifications of overturning Roe V. Wade, then the state shouldn't be talking about it. Isn't that reasonable?

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Mary, there are plenty of WOMEN who are pro-life. I am one of them.

It's not about politics, it's about whether or not you believe a fetus "counts" as a human being. I know you care about children, Mary, and if you believed that the fetus was a baby, you'd stand up for the baby's rights. It's just that you don't see the fetus that way. Can't you understand, though, how someone who DOES believe that the fetus is a baby would be against abortion? Can't you see there's more to it than some kind of power plays and politics?

You know - my sister explained the abortion thing to me that way once - and I've never looked at the issue the same again.

I was going on some tiraid about politics and abortion - and she said simply, "well if you believe abortion is the murder of a child, then nothing else really matters" or something to that effect (she put it much more eloquently) - and I just sort of saw where she was coming from - my sister is very pro-life, I am pro-choice - but in my mind it's an issue that can be debated until everyone is blue in the face....her views did not make me change my own - but they did make me see things in a different light and understand where some people are coming from.....so count her as a woman who is pro-life...

[amber]

Originally Posted by Sugar

Abortion is not an easy or an enviable choice to most people. If a woman decides it's what has to happen, that's between her and her God. If the state can't offer her equal protection (loss of benefits or pay qualifies, IMO), then the state has no business being in it. And if the state isn't prepared to deal with ALL of the ramifications of overturning Roe V. Wade, then the state shouldn't be talking about it. Isn't that reasonable?

Extremely reasonable. So-obvious-that-everyone-should-realize-it reasonable.

[irishgrl]

abortion became a political issue when the Religious Right began expecting payback for their political presence (think of the last election when the pundits all declared that the Churchgoing "base" won the election for W)

The history of abortion would surprise you! The State's ORIGINAL interest was in the protection of the MOTHER'S life, due to the fact that the procedure resulted in the deaths of MOTHERS--and the alternative was even worse: Backalley abortions killed hundreds of mothers as well. Women kept going to Doctors anyway, and eventually the Supreme Court could see that the old reasoning of it being dangerous to the mother no longer applied. The Court also saw a connection to a woman's right to have autonomy over her person and characterized it as within the "penumbra of the bill of rights" in other words, included in its SHADOW.

It wasnt until Reagan's rise to power that the Republican party began to get aggressive about this issue. it was also as a direct result of the newfound collaboration with the Moral Majority. In a Patriarchal society (which all Desert Religions adhere to) Women are second class citizens. Childrearing keeps them busy AT HOME where they cant interfere and muck up things by taking jobs away from men. What do they need educations for anyway? Think about it. Today's women are lucky because they have had the freedom to choose. Suppose that freedom were taken away? what would your future be then?

[estranged4life]

I try to visualize what George Carlin said in one of his standup routines on HBO:

"If people had their way they would arrest any woman that had an abortion, But if that was the case then every female who ever had a menstral cycle would be locked up and the key thrown away."

I remember just this past year when the doctor warned Deb & myself that it would not be wise to try to have a child due her chemo/radiation treatments, (He suggested waiting at least a minimum of 5 years) and said if she was to become pregnant it would be recommended to have an abortion because she would be looking at the severe possibility of losing her own life.