A question of wealth.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

And I really like Lindsey so I am sorry about the twenty dollar comment. I guess I just need to control myself and stop being so defensive of Stevie.

It's natural to want to stick up for the people/things you like, Christopher... we all do it.

But trust me, you don't have to be quite so defensive when people make comments about Stevie.
Sure, some things can (and should) be debated, and there's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of things are just said matter-of-factly, and aren't meant as a slam against her.

Also, sometimes you have to consider by whom it's being said, even moreso than what they're saying.

[MirrorInTheSky]

I just want to thank everyone for their contribution to this 'lively' discussion. I never intended for people to debate who's better than who. Let's face it, none of them would be anywhere without the others, so I just choose to enjoy the music. I just think it's fun to guess and play with numbers so huge because Lord knows I'll never be able to apply those figures to MY bank account. Those rich bastards....God I love 'em.

[Cour]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Well, she did and he was.

ummm, she did what? I'm a little lost, who is she? lol

[Cour]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Maybe your idea of a "flop" and my idea of a "flop" are two different things. But I've certainly never considered anything that grossed millions of dollars, to have been a flop (and that includes 'Tusk').

I'm not going to debate or enter into whether this tour was a flop or success. I will say that 8 million or 800 million gross means nothing without discussing the net. I can show you a ton of companies that gross billions of dollars and barely make a few hundred thousand dollars or lose money. IMO that's not a success.

Oh, and I don't think this is an example of rushing to Stevie's defense if you want to rectify an incorrect statement or clarify some misinformation

[hayley]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

See, this is when I get a bit nitpicky... which, in turn, is when I then get blamed for "rushing to defend Stevie."

But I think the use of the word "flop" is a bit extreme when discussing a tour that grossed 8 million dollars, and inherently a statement like that is bound to cause people to disagree (and then, as so often happens, they're accused of being blind to reality).

It's certainly not the highest-grossing tour Stevie has ever had, and it's definitely not in league with the kind of numbers Fleetwood Mac typically does... but a "flop" it's not.

Maybe your idea of a "flop" and my idea of a "flop" are two different things. But I've certainly never considered anything that grossed millions of dollars, to have been a flop (and that includes 'Tusk').

I'm not sure if Diss was referring to the actual box set or to the tour, but neither were flops by any means. I posted numbers earlier that Enchanted has sold around 150,000 copies, which is by no means a flop, for a box set. Those are good numbers. And the Enchanted tour did quite well. Better than the TISL tour.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Cour

ummm, she did what? I'm a little lost, who is she? lol

Stevie gained weight at about the same time TD was her manager.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by hayley

And the Enchanted tour did quite well. Better than the TISL tour.

Well, Pollstar is Pollstar and is bound to show some data incorrectly and have some venues missing, but I compared the figures for both tours at FM Legacy and they seemed to be pretty close to each other in average. Enchanted: "266,985 total (7,628 avg) of 511,440 available (52%)"; TISL: "233,909 total (8,663 avg) of 383,818 available (60%)". TISL did seem to have a few more sold-out arenas and by contrast the Enchanted tour had a couple that were 15% full.
But nah, I wouldn't call either of them flops.

[Cour]

Originally Posted by hayley

This thread is so, so lame.

But, just for illustrative purposes-

TISL has sold around 650,000 copies- after an advance, I'd be willing to bet that Stevie got maybe $2-3M cleared on the record itself, before taxes, and that's being generous.

I'm wondering how Stevie could clear anywhere near $2-3 million for a cd that sold 650,000 copies? Besides the production costs on the cd she also had 2 videos which would have been charged to her. Maybe I don't understand the math used in the recording industry today. How much would she have had to be paid on each cd to clear that type of money?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Cour

I'm not going to debate or enter into whether this tour was a flop or success. I will say that 8 million or 800 million gross means nothing without discussing the net. I can show you a ton of companies that gross billions of dollars and barely make a few hundred thousand dollars or lose money. IMO that's not a success.

Oh, and I don't think this is an example of rushing to Stevie's defense if you want to rectify an incorrect statement or clarify some misinformation

Thank you, and I do understand what you're saying... gross and net are definitely two different things. But even if you consider all of the overhead, etc., I imagine Stevie is still pulling in a decent amount of money from a tour that grossed 8-10 million dollars.

Otherwise, I just can't see why she'd continue to tour so often and at such a level.
I mean, if I weren't making money on tour, and the tours weren't making that big of a difference in my album sales, then I'd definitely find other ways to make some cash. Either by not touring at all and focusing on recording more albums (where I'd stand to earn more, thru both artists royalties and songwriter royalties), or by playing smaller venues with lower overhead costs.

So I tend to think that if Stevie weren't making a decent amount of money on a tour that "only grossed 8 million," then either she or her financial advisors would realize it's not worth the time & energy, and would make some changes.

[Tango]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I mean, if I weren't making money on tour, and the tours weren't making that big of a difference in my album sales, then I'd definitely find other ways to make some cash.

What was that quote in the Destiny Rules documentary . . . she prays to the commercial gods?

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Cour

I'm wondering how Stevie could clear anywhere near $2-3 million for a cd that sold 650,000 copies? Besides the production costs on the cd she also had 2 videos which would have been charged to her. Maybe I don't understand the math used in the recording industry today. How much would she have had to be paid on each cd to clear that type of money?

Depends on how much the record company gave her as an advance on the album. The less money she spends on production of the CD, the more $$ goes toward marketing, which increases sales, which should increase the profit margin. The record company gets their advance recouped before the artist sees any money. Case in point...Frampton Comes Alive was Peter Frampton's FOURTH solo album...and despite its massive sales, he barely saw any money from it because all the profits from it were used to pay back the advances on his first three albums. It wasn't until I'm In You did he see any income from album sales. Sure, he still got songwriter royalties, but didn't see a DIME of artist royalties until the advances were paid back.

[Johnny Stew]

In regards to the management question... Stevie was under the advisement of Frontline Management (with Stevie's "main manager" alternately being Irving Azoff, Rebecca Alvarez and Howard Kaufman) from approx. 1978/79 thru 1986.
Then she was with East End Management/Tony Dimitriades (w/Glen Parrish) from 1987-1990.
In 1991, she signed with HK Management/Howard Kaufman.
In 1994, she was with Glen Parrish Management, and then by 1997, she was back with HK Management and has been ever since.

We know that Frontline Management, or "Weasel Management," was fired not long after the 'Rock A Little' tour, around which time Stevie had gained weight... so it could have been one of those managers who chastized her for the weight gain.
Now, Howard Kaufman was heading Frontline, circa 1986, so it seems unlikely she would hire him again later if he had been the one to make the weight comment.

So... that leaves either Rebecca Alvarez or Tony Dimitriades as being the manager in question. And maybe it's sexist of me, but I'd be surprised if a female manager would chastize a female client for gaining weight. But who knows?

[Cour]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Depends on how much the record company gave her as an advance on the album. The less money she spends on production of the CD, the more $$ goes toward marketing, which increases sales, which should increase the profit margin. The record company gets their advance recouped before the artist sees any money. Case in point...Frampton Comes Alive was Peter Frampton's FOURTH solo album...and despite its massive sales, he barely saw any money from it because all the profits from it were used to pay back the advances on his first three albums. It wasn't until I'm In You did he see any income from album sales. Sure, he still got songwriter royalties, but didn't see a DIME of artist royalties until the advances were paid back.

Thanks, I understand most of that and knew about artists owing the record companies for past projects, which is what I was trying to say about Lindsey in the DR documentary. I just don't know how she could average between approx $3-5 per cd after production costs and 2 videos. She did spend a lot of time in the studio (first with Dallas Austin) and then with Sheryl making the cd and those videos cost a pretty penny also. I was just curious how she could have gotten to that type of payout after expenses.

Also, doesn't the record company protect itself on the back end and try to recoup a certain percentage of the advance if the sales don't reach a certain level?

[Cour]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

So... that leaves either Rebecca Alvarez or Tony Dimitriades as being the manager in question. And maybe it's sexist of me, but I'd be surprised if a female manager would chastize a female client for gaining weight. But who knows?

I think any manager who's worth their money would tell their client the truth and the weight issue is much more prevelant today than it was back when this happened. A manager is supposed to look out for their clients best interests and if journalists are pointing out the change in her weight and appearance than IMO the manager has a responsibility to tell their client the truth. If they're not telling her the truth than she has the wrong manager. I think it would probably be easier for a woman to tell another woman than it would be for a man to do it. But then again, some men

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this happen during the downturn in Stevie's career and when she was under the influence of the Klonopin?

Oh and since it's been that kind of day here I don't care if she weighs 500 lbs or 100 lbs as long as she's happy and healthy. I'm only responding to what I see as the manager's responsibility.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Cour

I don't care if she weighs 500 lbs or 100 lbs as long as she's happy and healthy.

Show me ANYONE who weighs 500 lbs who's "healthy". Or, for that matter, over 250 lbs.