Chris won't come back....

[SteveMacD]

LOL! I can't believe that there's still a debate about Christine coming back to the Mac. The only way we'll ever see her with the Mac again would probably be at a 40th anniversary show in England and maybe a guest appearance on an album. But her days as an active member of the band are over by her choice. Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band. SYW wasn't the best Mac album, but it wasn't the worst, either. Christine was a major part of the band, but just a part. The band has moved on. Christine has moved on. Let's talk about something else already.

Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking? The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well. "Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.

They had a better grasp on vocal harmony, and Lindsey's finger style is unique, but the overall Buckingham Nicks album plays rather nicely in the '67-'70 Fleetwood Mac catalogue. I think where they were different from the others is that they were more confident, comitted, and focused, and Lindsey actually had a notion of how to produce well crafted pop music. Also, I have to say that Lindsey was really the strongest (though not necessarily the best) male vocal the band had up to that point. Of course the 1975 album sounds superior to most of the previous Mac albums. But then again, it was recorded in three months, which was considerably longer than any other album up to that point. In other words, they approached that album with a much more professional attitude, and it paid off. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

LOL! I can't believe that there's still a debate about Christine coming back to the Mac. The only way we'll ever see her with the Mac again would probably be at a 40th anniversary show in England and maybe a guest appearance on an album. But her days as an active member of the band are over by her choice. Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band. SYW wasn't the best Mac album, but it wasn't the worst, either. Christine was a major part of the band, but just a part. The band has moved on. Christine has moved on. Let's talk about something else already.

I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris? We need more threads and posts in this forum, anyway!

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking? The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well. "Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.

That is fascinating to me because I had never thought of those similarities! I know this won't go over well, but I personally like "Frozen Love" a lot more than "Oh Well," though. (I sure hope ChiliD isn't reading this! ). "Crystal" does have a short of Kirwan thing going on to me, but then it also seems very Stevie to me. I don't see it much in the other two. I find it funny that "Lola My Love" is the only song off of Buckingham Nicks that I don't like and you've compared it to the only member of the Mac whose music I've never gotten into for some reason.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris?

I guess I don't miss Chris because she's still making music. Sure, I'd love it if she had a major change of heart, but that's not going to happen. All I'm saying is that she was a member of Fleetwood Mac on twelve studio albums, two live albums, two greatest hits packages, a boxed set, and four live videos, not to mention all of the boots and the appearances she made with the band prior to joining and after leaving. I honestly don't think there's much more she could do with Fleetwood Mac. I guess I'm more interested in hearing what they do without her, and what she does without them.

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

That is fascinating to me because I had never thought of those similarities! I know this won't go over well, but I personally like "Frozen Love" a lot more than "Oh Well," though.

Well, they're totally different songs, to be sure. But there are similar elements. I like them both equally.

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

"Crystal" does have a short of Kirwan thing going on to me, but then it also seems very Stevie to me. I don't see it much in the other two.

To me, "Without A Leg..." sounds like Danny on "Future Games." For that matter, it also sounds somewhat like "Bright Fire," from "Penguin." As for CITN, it has a feel similar to some of Danny's work on "Kiln House," IMO. It just has a pure, folky quality that I associate with Danny.

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I find it funny that "Lola My Love" is the only song off of Buckingham Nicks that I don't like and you've compared it to the only member of the Mac whose music I've never gotten into for some reason.

Maybe it's because both can come off as an act. As much as I enjoy Jeremy, it's really hard to hear him. I hear Elmore James, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and some '50s country crooners, but it's hard to tell who Jeremy was. The other major players seemed to have a definite idea of who they were, or at least wrote songs that gave insight to who they were. Which brings us to "Lola." The lyrics just don't fit the Lindsey we know, and the song comes off as fake.

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Ironically, the posters on the Stevie forum tend to take a far more critical approach to their discussions than those on either the Lindsey or Christine forums do of their subjects.

Hmm...I wonder why that is. I've noticed it on the Rumours forum with both Stevie & Lindsey fans, but not towards Christine from her die hard fans. It just seems strange why it would be different with Christine. I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way.

[MACFAN]

I would hardly call Beyonce a great talent. She's good at shaking her ass, wearing some really tacky clothing at times. wearing next to nothing at times (or some dead animal), but a great talent

[MACFAN]

Oh one more thing

Debbie Harry does not have a schtick.....puhleeze

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I guess I don't miss Chris because she's still making music. Sure, I'd love it if she had a major change of heart, but that's not going to happen. All I'm saying is that she was a member of Fleetwood Mac on twelve studio albums, two live albums, two greatest hits packages, a boxed set, and four live videos, not to mention all of the boots and the appearances she made with the band prior to joining and after leaving. I honestly don't think there's much more she could do with Fleetwood Mac. I guess I'm more interested in hearing what they do without her, and what she does without them.

I see what you're saying here, though I think I'll always yearn for more of what I see as that impeccable three-part harmony, even if they started rehashing things. But, at the same time, another solo efforts (or two?) from Chris would be fascinating and it's worth seeing what more she can do on her own.

Well, they're totally different songs, to be sure. But there are similar elements. I like them both equally.

I may love "Frozen Love" more, but I still love "Oh Well"--both parts. But it's odd to me that of all the versions I've heard, I like the one Bob Welch has on his compiliation His Fleetwood Mac Years and Beyond . I'm weird.

To me, "Without A Leg..." sounds like Danny on "Future Games." For that matter, it also sounds somewhat like "Bright Fire," from "Penguin." As for CITN, it has a feel similar to some of Danny's work on "Kiln House," IMO. It just has a pure, folky quality that I associate with Danny.

Ah! You see, this material I'm not familiar with yet. I've got Then Play On, Bare Trees, the big-ass Blue Horizon box set thingy, and some mp3s of solo stuff here and there. Since you said that, I'm thinking I may be missing a lot of what Danny's about because I haven't yet collected all the Mac stuff. Maybe I'll understand your comparisons more when I get that stuff.

Maybe it's because both can come off as an act. As much as I enjoy Jeremy, it's really hard to hear him. I hear Elmore James, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and some '50s country crooners, but it's hard to tell who Jeremy was. The other major players seemed to have a definite idea of who they were, or at least wrote songs that gave insight to who they were. Which brings us to "Lola." The lyrics just don't fit the Lindsey we know, and the song comes off as fake.

I agree and was never able to articulate it as you have here.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by macfan 57

Hmm...I wonder why that is. I've noticed it on the Rumours forum with both Stevie & Lindsey fans, but not towards Christine from her die hard fans. It just seems strange why it would be different with Christine. I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way.

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out!

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by MACFAN

I would hardly call Beyonce a great talent. She's good at shaking her ass, wearing some really tacky clothing at times. wearing next to nothing at times (or some dead animal), but a great talent

She does write some of her music. But then again, Britney writes some of her music, so...

[dissention]

Originally Posted by MACFAN

I would hardly call Beyonce a great talent. She's good at shaking her ass, wearing some really tacky clothing at times. wearing next to nothing at times (or some dead animal), but a great talent

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I think she has quite the talent for writing catchy pop tunes and she has a beautiful voice. If you don't think she's talented, don't listen to her. Lord knows I don't listen to half of Stevie's material from the last fifteen years.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by MACFAN

Oh one more thing

Debbie Harry does not have a schtick.....puhleeze

In comparison to Stevie? Hell no. I'd like to know exactly what kind of schtick Miss Harry has. Her schtick twenty-five years ago was that of the dim blonde on stage, but not now. If you call reinventing yourself musically and progressing with your artistry on a constant basis "schtick," however, then I would agree in regards to her.

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out!

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time.

I think you're right. Those two ladies' personalities are like night & day.

By the way, Chris really doesn't look "silly" in those Tusk videos. She's pretty funny, even though she is drunk. Of course, those videos haven't been widely seen except by die-hard fans.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule.

Can you hear me laughing all the way in Louisiana, dear?

[David]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band.

How can you tell -- between the dozens of producing, engineering & backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" album & the single dozen backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" tour?

How can you figure out what the hell you're actually listening to? More power to ya if you can.

Fleetwood Mac -- the actual members of Fleetwood Mac -- hides itself well nowadays.

Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking?

"Earth shattering"? You've stacked your argument with a loaded term. Are we supposed to respond that adding LB & SN was nothing special, or that Fleetwood Mac was never all that earth shattering to begin with, musically? And then you go on to compare songwriting styles, as if that were the only criterion worth artistic consideration.

I would say the greatest artistic strength of adding the two Americans to the band, especially at that point, was that Fleetwood Mac became a formidable, experimental, accomplished force in the production realm. They had not been so in the early 1970s. There isn't anything, from a producer's or engineer's point of view, on albums like "Mystery to Me" or "Kiln House" or "Heroes Are Hard to Find" that is a very noteworthy engineering or production feat. But if "Rumours" were recorded in Serbo-Croatian & none of us understood a word of what was being sung, the album would still stand throughout the entire industry as the quintessence of gorgeous engineering & production.

The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well.

Interesting point of view, but by no means universal or even widespread. I don't hear the musical similarity at all.

"Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.

Steve, bless you (& I've known you for a long time), but you're reaching here. You could find hundreds of pop songs from the early 1970s & cite "similarities" between them & Kirwan's sound. If you reverse-zoom far enough, every continent on the planet looks quite similar.

Lindsey actually had a notion of how to produce well crafted pop music.

You're on to something here, but it wasn't actually all that noticeable in 1973. He most definitely grew slowly into his ability, & then having achieved a certain skill level, pushed it further by reconceptualizing both his own role & the idealized role of the engineer/producer in the studio. He both benefited by the earlier creations of others & re-created.

(However, it wasn't until fairly recently that he procreated.)

Also, I have to say that Lindsey was really the strongest (though not necessarily the best) male vocal the band had up to that point.

I can't agree. I think Peter was a splendid vocalist -- quietly anguished without being obstreperous (like the early metal screechers), beautifully modulated, & with an unerring sense of tone.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You're not wrong, Steve -- you're just constantly marshaling your sociological phenomena in aesthetic considerations!

[David]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris?

A bunch of the big fans of the first three years of the band still dwell on Peter & Jeremy being gone (I'm on the phone with one of them at this moment), so I would say go ahead & continue to dwell on Chris being gone.

It's always easier to tell the other guy what to do!