This has a new significance with the Pope scandal

[vermicious knid]

I had never seen this whole thing before. I have seen clips of the crowd jeering and Sinead walking off looking broken, and that was such an innacurate partial picture. Such strength. How many people could do this?

This was two weeks after the SNL thing. Apparently the plan was to sing a different song, and this was an impromptu decision.

[Tango]

You might appreciate this very recent Q&A with Sinead:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042902200.html

[vermicious knid]

Thanks. This is unbelievable:


Sinead O'Connor: When my father was 5 he was told a story by his priest... that a boy he knew had died without having been to confession, and was sent to hell... and priest claimed how he knew this was.. his bedroom burst into flames one night... and when the fire was put out there were two little handprints in the bottom of the bed, the boy had come "screaming back from hell" to have his confession heard... when they finish investigating sexual abuse, then it will be corporal punishment.. and then psychological abuse such as my father endured >>> are these things representative of Christ> No.

[LukeA]

I guess that whole celibacy thing isn't working out for those guys, huh?

[Ghost_Tracker]

I'd just like to mention that I feel it's a mistake to stereotype any group because of a few bad apples. The Catholic church has literally hundreds of thousands of priests; it's a given that some of them are gonna be bad eggs. Yes, their handling of this has been inexcusable and they seem pretty ignorant when it comes to these things, i.m.o. But on the flip side, the only thing they've ever preached at my Mom's old church down the street is that "it would be nice if people could be nice to each other, JUST for a change," and that they would appreciate it if people would keep in mind that they're having a bake sale this coming weekend. They're actually very liberal; you'd be surprised. And I know the response would probably be, "well yeah of COURSE you wouldn't know," but everything really does seem very innocent there. And just as a precaution, no staff member or clergy person is ever allowed to be in a room alone with a minor with the door shut. They're making a very loud point that "this will NEVER happen HERE."

By the way - current Catholic "dogma" is that Adam and Eve NEVER happened, that evolution may have happened, and that the Universe was created through the Big Bang. Look into it, it's true. Don't believe everything you hear about what their positions are; they're VERY open to modern times in some ways, and not as "stuck in the stone ages" as the stereotype makes them out to be.
In general, I mean.

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

By the way - current Catholic "dogma" is that Adam and Eve NEVER happened.

Without original sin, Jesus died for no reason. I find it very hard to believe the church threw out the creation story.

[nailatixela]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Without original sin, Jesus died for no reason. I find it very hard to believe the church threw out the creation story.

I don't know if it's 100% thrown out...but, GT is correct. They have acknowledged the likeliness of evolution and at the same time spoke against the complete truth of creation.

But are most Catholics even aware of this? No. Ugh.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Without original sin, Jesus died for no reason. I find it very hard to believe the church threw out the creation story.

It says in a footnote in my Mom's Catholic Bible - this was published in 1970 by the way so assuming it's still "policy," it's been that way for some time - something along the lines of how original sin is something we're all born with, automatically, and doesn't hinge on it starting with two specific people. I suppose it would depend on who you ask, of course. I'm sure there's Catholic Priests who believe, tooth-and-nail, in the Creation story as written, and who believe that the earth is 10,000 years old. But I believe most of them, at least in America, would tell you that it's an allegory, and that church members are perfectly free to take it that way.

Here's exact quotes of two of the footnotes, to try to give the general idea:

"According to the highly artificial literary structure of Genesis Chapter 1, God's creative activity is divided into six days to teach the sacredness of the sabbath rest on the seventh day of the Israelite religion."

"[This section] shows how God brought an orderly universe out of primordial chaos."

(In other words, "don't sweat the details - just get that he made order out of disorder.")

There's two completely conflicting creation stories in Genesis, you know. There's just no way to get around that, i.m.o. I see here that a footnote for Chapter 2 says that it's "much older than Chapter 1."

There's also a diagram of the earth the way they pictured it back then - it says, "This was the same prescientific concept of the universe as that held by the Hebrews' pagan neighbors."

Did you know that the Vatican has its own astronomical observatory? With a Jesuit Priest who's a Ph.D. in Astronomy? I've seen him asked about it, and he emphasizes how he feels that it's "the search for knowledge" that's important, and that things are the way they are "to make us ask questions." The Vatican funds his work and as near as I can make out, they don't give him any hassle at all, even though he's a "mainstream" astronomer who obviously believes in the Big Bang Theory. I think maybe overall, their reaction is "WOW isn't this COOL!? Shows just how powerful God must really be!" I've also seen him asked if he feels there's life on other planets and his answer is a simple, "We just plain don't know," which I'd say is pretty much 100% true.

Anyway certain things are dogma but I think people would be surprised what is and what really isn't, these days. The middle ages were a loonnnng time ago, and these people have cable tv too.


P.S. - I saw the posting above. Define, "impermissable." Believe it or not, the leadership of the church and the Priests - in general - DO have minds of their own. I have no doubt that the Pastor at my mom's old church down the street would tell some little old lady, "Of COURSE creation happened exactly as written," if he felt that would make her feel better. Does he believe it himself? I really, really doubt it. And I asked the other Priest there his opinion once and he said that it's considered to be an allegory. Naturally there's a lot of different opinions within the church on this, being such a large organization. And I'm sure plenty of Catholics online - including those "high up the totem pole" - are posting those opinions. They're certainly free to do so, as is the Astronomer I mentioned above, who clearly believes in the Big Bang Theory.

By the way, I haven't read it yet, but there's a book at the library that I saw - written by an Astronomer - called "The Big Bang Never Happened." I personally believe in it, myself - but I'm sure even the most hard-core Astronomer would admit that it is, ultimately, just a theory.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

Thanks. This is unbelievable:


Sinead O'Connor: When my father was 5 he was told a story by his priest... that a boy he knew had died without having been to confession, and was sent to hell... and priest claimed how he knew this was.. his bedroom burst into flames one night... and when the fire was put out there were two little handprints in the bottom of the bed, the boy had come "screaming back from hell" to have his confession heard... when they finish investigating sexual abuse, then it will be corporal punishment.. and then psychological abuse such as my father endured >>> are these things representative of Christ> No.

I may be weird, but I don't see what's wrong with this story or how it constitutes psychological abuse.

[vermicious knid]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I may be weird, but I don't see what's wrong with this story or how it constitutes psychological abuse.

You don't think telling that story to a child would petrify him and change the way his mind works? And not just a story, but something presented as an actual occurance? Surely children can do without the thought that at any moment they could be transported to hell to burn for eternity. . . unless you're a good boy. That is sick.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

You don't think telling that story to a child would petrify him and change the way his mind works? And not just a story, but something presented as an actual occurance? Surely children can do without the thought that at any moment they could be transported to hell to burn for eternity. . . unless you're a good boy. That is sick.

That would be sick if your description had anything to do with the story that was told. The story was about failing to confess, not sinning. We are all sinners, but the soul that does not release shame, guilt, sin, hurt to a forgiving and loving God will, indeed, remain in torment--a torment rather vividly dramatized in the priest's tale.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

Thanks. This is unbelievable:


Sinead O'Connor: When my father was 5 he was told a story by his priest... that a boy he knew had died without having been to confession, and was sent to hell... and priest claimed how he knew this was.. his bedroom burst into flames one night... and when the fire was put out there were two little handprints in the bottom of the bed, the boy had come "screaming back from hell" to have his confession heard... when they finish investigating sexual abuse, then it will be corporal punishment.. and then psychological abuse such as my father endured >>> are these things representative of Christ> No.

I think it's fair to say that that would seem pretty scary to a five year old child. It reminds me of part of a story elaborated on in "The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara). Anyway, this seems to me to be another effective avenue for encouraging the child to join Christianity so he can be absolved of future sins, etc., and then regularly give cash to the collection plate at church as an adult, which should instead be relying on the wealthy Vatican conglomerate to supply funds.
Also, has anyone considered that confession seems to replace the more decent notion of making up for your mistakes? I mean, sure, one can make mistakes (who hasn't?) and feel guilty, but isn't it better to learn how to avoid similar incidences, and hopefully find a way to repair the damage, rather than tell someone about what you've done and leave it at that? Confession really is just a pointless waste of time (although admittedly religious practices generally are) that could be better spent doing something nice for the person that was on the receiving end of your indecency. Let alone that if confession makes the confessor feel less guilty about what they've done... well, that's not necessarily a good thing - wouldn't it be better to "carry the burden" as a reminder to avoid similar mistakes?
As for going to hell if you don't confess... well, hell's a non-existent pagan abstraction (this pagan bit needs citation - I can't remember where I read this... anyone care to help?), so fortunately none of us non-Catholics have to worry about it when we die.

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by jaycee

. Anyway, this seems to me to be another effective avenue for encouraging the child to join Christianity so he can be absolved of future sins, etc., and then regularly give cash to the collection plate at church as an adult, which should instead be relying on the wealthy Vatican conglomerate to supply funds.
Also, has anyone considered that confession seems to replace the more decent notion of making up for your mistakes? I mean, sure, one can make mistakes (who hasn't?) and feel guilty, but isn't it better to learn how to avoid similar incidences, and hopefully find a way to repair the damage, rather than tell someone about what you've done and leave it at that? Confession really is just a pointless waste of time (although admittedly religious practices generally are) that could be better spent doing something nice for the person that was on the receiving end of your indecency. Let alone that if confession makes the confessor feel less guilty about what they've done... well, that's not necessarily a good thing - wouldn't it be better to "carry the burden" as a reminder to avoid similar mistakes?
.

B. False.

Confession isn't the way you make it sound. The actual name of the sacrament is Reconciliation, to "settle or resolve." That resolution doesn't come from only speaking your sins aloud; after a Catholic confesses, the priest recommends a penance to amend for the sin. This is the most important aspect of the rite, and you've left it out of your dismissal of Confession as a whole. If you've hurt someone, the penance is almost always to find a way to redeem yourself, to apologize to the person, to swallow your pride and go back to them like a decent human being.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

B. False.

Confession isn't the way you make it sound. The actual name of the sacrament is Reconciliation, to "settle or resolve." That resolution doesn't come from only speaking your sins aloud; after a Catholic confesses, the priest recommends a penance to amend for the sin. This is the most important aspect of the rite, and you've left it out of your dismissal of Confession as a whole. If you've hurt someone, the penance is almost always to find a way to redeem yourself, to apologize to the person, to swallow your pride and go back to them like a decent human being.

Granted, this new information makes confession sound mildly more worthwhile... that said, I don't consider Catholic morality to be of high value (it spends too much time worrying about things people do in private, which harm no-one), although that's only a partially related matter I guess.