A post from "Jesusland"

[JamieSPC]

Hey Blue Staters!

Here's a Fleetwood Mac fan, Alabamian, Christian, Republican and overall basic lover of humanity who dropped in on Chit Chat, knowing what he would find, but dismayed by it all the same.

Dismayed because:
--vitriol is vitriol no matter what side it comes from
--in the process of accusing others of intolerance, many resort to intolerance themselves
--the same outpouring of hatred many of you accuse "Red Staters" of seems to go unchecked and practically unnoticed in your own ranks
--the same type of lashing out against homosexuals, African-Americans or other minority group would likely result in the offending parties being banned from this board (i.e., some brash, misguided individual posting a map branding New York state "Gayville")

It hurts when someone disagrees with you, and it hurts to lose a tough fight. But it also hurts to be openly ridiculed and beat to the dust by people who have absolutely no respect or understanding for what you believe, yet hate you for it without even asking.

None of you here know me, and thereby have no business making assumptions about me personally. But rest easy in the knowledge that you have made me feel most unwelcome at The Ledge.

Thanks, and congratulations for your "tolerance" ... and feel free to flame me into oblivion.

[Alison]

Yes you will probably be flamed. As I have been in the past.
I do agree with what you have said.
Many may feel the same way, but why would they bother posting just to be torn apart.

[JamieSPC]

Alison,

but why would they bother posting just to be torn apart

Because it's worth saying. 'Nuff said.

[amber]

i don't like people to feel bad, but some like you DO argue with others on here. Which you're free to do.
And you notice how a lot of the liberal Dems post news articles supporting thier points? You could do that as well.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by amber

i don't like people to feel bad, but some like you DO argue with others on here. Which you're free to do.
And you notice how a lot of the liberal Dems post news articles supporting thier points? You could do that as well.

I don't know about you, but reading these threads, then finding a bunch of articles, would take me HOURS. Hours for what? To get a bunch of angry replies and repetitions of talking points? I'm not tough or patient enough for that. More power to those who are. But it's easy when you're a member of the "club," isn't it?

Briefly I did try to engage in political discourse here a while back. I actually did take the time to explain all my points. Did it convince anyone of anything? No. Did it get me a lot of negative, hostile, upsetting replies? Yes. Therefore, I quit, because I come to the Ledge to enjoy myself. I probably take things too personally, I admit. I let it get to me when people slap me with bigots and make fun of my religion. That's my own problem. But don't assume it's because we have no reason for our beliefs.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I don't know about you, but reading these threads, then finding a bunch of articles, would take me HOURS. Hours for what? To get a bunch of angry replies and repetitions of talking points? I'm not tough or patient enough for that. More power to those who are. But it's easy when you're a member of the "club," isn't it?

Briefly I did try to engage in political discourse here a while back. I actually did take the time to explain all my points. Did it convince anyone of anything? No. Did it get me a lot of negative, hostile, upsetting replies? Yes. Therefore, I quit, because I come to the Ledge to enjoy myself. I probably take things too personally, I admit. I let it get to me when people slap me with bigots and make fun of my religion. That's my own problem. But don't assume it's because we have no reason for our beliefs.

But, Nancy, with all due respect, your points about Iraq and almost all of W's term have been proven to be factually incorrect in those articles from all sources. So, I am unsure people are attacking you for having for opinion as much as they are saying you are factually incorrect, which is different

[amber]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I don't know about you, but reading these threads, then finding a bunch of articles, would take me HOURS. Hours for what? To get a bunch of angry replies and repetitions of talking points? I'm not tough or patient enough for that. More power to those who are. But it's easy when you're a member of the "club," isn't it?

Briefly I did try to engage in political discourse here a while back. I actually did take the time to explain all my points. Did it convince anyone of anything? No. Did it get me a lot of negative, hostile, upsetting replies? Yes. Therefore, I quit, because I come to the Ledge to enjoy myself. I probably take things too personally, I admit. I let it get to me when people slap me with bigots and make fun of my religion. That's my own problem. But don't assume it's because we have no reason for our beliefs.

I didn't assume that. yeah, i don't want to post a bunch of articles either. But i might want to if i disagreed with the people who post them. And who knows, maybe someone would back you up? And yes, it is easier when you're part of the "club", I suppose. But in this instance, you were not complaining about the political posts, and Jamie was, so I offered some suggestions of what she could do to give herself and her beliefs equal time, if she wanted. No biggie. It just struck me that she could post whatever she wants, too...

Amber

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Briefly I did try to engage in political discourse here a while back. I actually did take the time to explain all my points. Did it convince anyone of anything? No. Did it get me a lot of negative, hostile, upsetting replies? Yes. Therefore, I quit, because I come to the Ledge to enjoy myself. I probably take things too personally, I admit. I let it get to me when people slap me with bigots and make fun of my religion. That's my own problem. But don't assume it's because we have no reason for our beliefs.

You've failed to post anything that supported your opinions with facts, Nancy. I've told you again and again that you take these discussions too personally, but at the same time, you invite it when you only post your opinions and have them shot down almost immediately because the facts don't necessarily back up your opinions. Just like when you posted about Pell Grants. Like I said earlier in this thread, I respect the rights of people to have their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I respect the belief itself, especially if it's based on a false premise and unsupported by facts.

JMO.

[DeeGeMe]

I'm one who does not agree with either of you. And I'm glad the two of you are so happy with the Chimp because I'm not!

For the record, a Southern Baptist and I live in South Carolina. And I'm a Democrat because I'm a Christian. I believe in helping the poor, and the downtrodden, and that all men (and women) are created equal. I own and have read several different translations of the Bible, and you know, in not a single one of those versions, do I recall Jesus hanging out with the rich and the powerful. He chased the moneychangers out of the temple. He fed the poor. He cured the sick. His friends were the poor, the lepers, and the prostitutes. The lowest of the low--no where do I recall Jesus taking trips on the corporate jets with his buddies from Enron (you know what I'm talking about here).

Yet, the warfare, and it is indeed warfare, that Republicans have engaged in against Democrats would have you believe that casting a vote for the Democrats is the same as voting for Satan. This is just beyond ridiculous. Yet, some Christians have been so misled by the Republicans that they have swallowed this malarky hook, line, and sinker. And they will, one day, I predict, choke on it as a result.

It's remarkable to me that George Bush, a man who only goes to Church during election years (and even that's pretty rare) can proclaim himself to be a Christian and everyone believes it. I say that you should be known by your works--not your words. And I see a president who has cut funding for the poor, for the aged, for children, for education, for social programs across the board. This is being a Christian???? Yet, he has no problems further enriching the wealthy and for endorsing programs and erasing laws that protect the environment and individuals from corporations. Doesn't that bother you? Because it should. In fact, it should scare you to death.

Let me ask you this--do you really think that the Anti-Christ would appear and proclaim himself the Anti-Christ? Of course not, he (or she) will put the most attractive, genial face on their evil as they possibly can. The Bible's pretty clear on this--it says that "many shall arise in my name." Just something to think about there for you today.

Does it not bother any of you who voted for this man that the very places that were attacked on 9/11 voted AGAINST this president? Does it bother you that he was warned that we were going to be attacked and did NOTHING about it? That he ignored the warnings?

Does it not bother you that there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein had a direct involvement in 9/11 or with Osama Bin Laden? or that there have been NO Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Iraq? That over 100,000 innocent civilians have been murdered in Iraq by our troops? And for what? Why are we there? This has not kept us safer and has instead, enabled Osama Bin Laden and the other terrorist groups to recruit hundreds if not thousands of fighters for their cause, against us.

Does it not bother you that the World thinks that we have lost our damned minds for electing this man for a second term? That we are now viewed as religious extremists who are pursuing an aggressive policy against other countries? That we have appointed ourselves the policemen of the world (*only applies to countries with rich oil reserves)?

And for your allegations that certain posts would be banned if they attacked gays or a certain race but that it's okay here to fire away at certain other groups (i.e. Republicans)--that's just a misrepresentation and you know it.

The truth is that you can't defend these positions and you know it or else you'd be making multiple posts like the liberals on this board do. But you can't because there's no there--there.

And you know, or you should know, in your heart of hearts that discriminating against the poor, and homosexuals, and other minorities is WRONG.

Please explain to me how Republicans and Conservatives came to be a protected minority when you control the White House, both Houses of Congress, and the Supreme Court? That's not a minority-it's a majority and I don't believe that special protection extends to majority groups, either here or in the "real world".

And on edit---if you have articles proving your positions or that support your view, by all means, post them. See, being liberal means having an open mind and I'm not afraid to read "the other side's" viewpoints. But they had better be grounded in firm fact or I'm going to pick them apart because that's something else liberals are good at--questioning the status quo and not drinking the kool-aid.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

I'm one who does not agree with either of you. And I'm glad the two of you are so happy with the Chimp because I'm not!

For the record, a Southern Baptist and I live in South Carolina. And I'm a Democrat because I'm a Christian. I believe in helping the poor, and the downtrodden, and that all men (and women) are created equal. I own and have read several different translations of the Bible, and you know, in not a single one of those versions, do I recall Jesus hanging out with the rich and the powerful. He chased the moneychangers out of the temple. He fed the poor. He cured the sick. His friends were the poor, the lepers, and the prostitutes. The lowest of the low--no where do I recall Jesus taking trips on the corporate jets with his buddies from Enron (you know what I'm talking about here).

Yet, the warfare, and it is indeed warfare, that Republicans have engaged in against Democrats would have you believe that casting a vote for the Democrats is the same as voting for Satan. This is just beyond ridiculous. Yet, some Christians have been so misled by the Republicans that they have swallowed this malarky hook, line, and sinker. And they will, one day, I predict, choke on it as a result.

It's remarkable to me that George Bush, a man who only goes to Church during election years (and even that's pretty rare) can proclaim himself to be a Christian and everyone believes it. I say that you should be known by your works--not your words. And I see a president who has cut funding for the poor, for the aged, for children, for education, for social programs across the board. This is being a Christian???? Yet, he has no problems further enriching the wealthy and for endorsing programs and erasing laws that protect the environment and individuals from corporations. Doesn't that bother you? Because it should. In fact, it should scare you to death.

Let me ask you this--do you really think that the Anti-Christ would appear and proclaim himself the Anti-Christ? Of course not, he (or she) will put the most attractive, genial face on their evil as they possibly can. The Bible's pretty clear on this--it says that "many shall arise in my name." Just something to think about there for you today.

Does it not bother any of you who voted for this man that the very places that were attacked on 9/11 voted AGAINST this president? Does it bother you that he was warned that we were going to be attacked and did NOTHING about it? That he ignored the warnings?

Does it not bother you that there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein had a direct involvement in 9/11 or with Osama Bin Laden? or that there have been NO Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Iraq? That over 100,000 innocent civilians have been murdered in Iraq by our troops? And for what? Why are we there? This has not kept us safer and has instead, enabled Osama Bin Laden and the other terrorist groups to recruit hundreds if not thousands of fighters for their cause, against us.

Does it not bother you that the World thinks that we have lost our damned minds for electing this man for a second term? That we are now viewed as religious extremists who are pursuing an aggressive policy against other countries? That we have appointed ourselves the policemen of the world (*only applies to countries with rich oil reserves)?

And for your allegations that certain posts would be banned if they attacked gays or a certain race but that it's okay here to fire away at certain other groups (i.e. Republicans)--that's just a misrepresentation and you know it.

The truth is that you can't defend these positions and you know it or else you'd be making multiple posts like the liberals on this board do. But you can't because there's no there--there.

And you know, or you should know, in your heart of hearts that discriminating against the poor, and homosexuals, and other minorities is WRONG.

Please explain to me how Republicans and Conservatives came to be a protected minority when you control the White House, both Houses of Congress, and the Supreme Court? That's not a minority-it's a majority and I don't believe that special protection extends to majority groups, either here or in the "real world".

And on edit---if you have articles proving your positions or that support your view, by all means, post them. See, being liberal means having an open mind and I'm not afraid to read "the other side's" viewpoints. But they had better be grounded in firm fact or I'm going to pick them apart because that's something else liberals are good at--questioning the status quo and not drinking the kool-aid.

Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DeeGeMe]

Diss said:
Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You, and Goldie, and the Democratic Underground taught me everything I know. (Well, that and my 40 years of living and my degrees in English and Poliltical Science.)

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Diss said:
Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You, and Goldie, and the Democratic Underground taught me everything I know. (Well, that and my 40 years of living and my degrees in English and Poliltical Science.)

Me?! Oh, darling, what a compliment.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Diss said:
Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You, and Goldie, and the Democratic Underground taught me everything I know. (Well, that and my 40 years of living and my degrees in English and Poliltical Science.)

If it wasn't for you guys, Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, AAR and DU, I would have begun to question that what I strongly suspected last week actually did not happen. By Thursday, I thought I was losing it. Then Friday, Ralph Nader, who I have said many bitter things about, intervened. Ralph, if you can pull this off, I will take back every bad thing I've ever said about you.
Today, I started talking amongst business acquaintances who I happen to know are Democrats. I found out, they feel the same way I do. I also found out one of their kids, who lives in my neighborhood and is an 18-24 year old was knocked off the voter rolls and forced to vote provisional like my 18 year old was. I wonder how many others there are.
By the way, if anyone is liscensed to practice law in Nevada, please contact www.blackboxvoting.org. as soon as you can if you wish to help our fight to retain the republic.

[SuzeQuze]

Yes, that was a beautiful post, I love Degee!!

Originally Posted by dissention

Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!