[snoot]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I've also read that on some shows during that tour all they did was a long jam based on "Black Magic Woman". It was at one of those shows Kirwan threw the bottle because he couldn't keep up with Green.

Wouldn't you have thrown a bottle at his head if that was all he insisted on playing? And "keep up with him"? Green was going mad at that point! It was no doubt more out of frustration, like you might be tempted to do when your trusty turntable keeps skipping on a record. Also, you have no idea of all the details of why just such an incident erupted, or what was on Kirwan's mind for that matter, unless you were there. And even then, you may not have known all the particulars! Green could be quite frustrating to be around at that time, probably more than young Kirwan. Just look at the ground rules he insisted on setting during the end of that tour! WTF. Welch must have come into the band like a breath of fresh air.

You're creating a rivalry that Green was not on this planet to recognize.

He was beginning to feel a bit threatened by Danny, sorry you never picked up on the full story. He was also starting to lose his marbles. That's just a fact, and this was during his tenure with the Mac, not after. Sorry to burst any precious bubbles here, but this isn't breaking news. I'm certainly not gloss-coating anything either. And if you couldn't see or appreciate Kirwan's stunning rise, tough. I know Peter certainly did.

OK just for fun, who do you think is? If his initials are R. B., I'll say ok. Otherwise, it's a debate.

Good question, but honestly there are too many to consider. I could never pick a singular figure, just like I wouldn't be able to on the American side. A lot of great gun slingers out there, then and now, and you named some of the better ones earlier. So ask yourself, was Bach greater than Beethoven, or Wagner for that matter? Did Rembrandt trump Dürer? Did Segovia meet his match in Williams or Parkening, et al? You know how it goes on anything referencing music or the arts. It's all rather subjective in the end. Just look at the joke that Rolling Stone magazine is on the subject, with their "rankings". Pffft. Btw Roy is good, but not the best.

It's all how you handle your booze. By 1972, nobody in the band was speaking to him.

It was only towards the very end that he fully alienated the fold, but I'll freely concede he was getting increasingly difficult to work with as time went on (shades of his mentor, Herr Green, at the end, no?). Mick never wanted to cut him, but Welch insisted -- and for understandable reasons by that point. The others signed on without reluctance, and Mick dished up his walking papers. And you're right - it's all how you handle your booze ... or, er, drugs. Touché.

Maybe I should ask the same question, why are you debating Green's impact on the band?

I haven't, you're just choosing to view it that way.

Danny Kirwan was not an original member.

Neither was John McVie, or Christine, or Bob Welch , or Buckingham & Nicks. So what's your point in bringing that up? Denny Laine first led the Moody Blues. Does that mean he trumps his successor, Justin Hayward, and his immense contributions?

He did not steal any thunder from Green's talents as Green was battling personal demons.

Good to see you recognize they both were battling personal demons, and by the end of their respective tenures in the band, BIG TIME. Go back to what I spoke of earlier, the eerie analogies. Also PG was not at the height of his guitar powers when he left the group. He was clearly beginning to lose his mind by that point, and everyone around him knew it and were hoping and praying for a turnaround.

No one else on this board has been so contentious about this period.

Contentious, in trying to give DK his chops? In stating he was rising as Green was slipping at the end? I thought that was all too apparent. But if you feel I ever said Kirwan bested Green, you're wrong. Never said it, or feel it. They were simply a great duo that fueled each other to greater artistic heights, esp as time went on. Then Play On is proof enough of that. I would have LOVED to see a follow-up to that project, as I suspect you would have!

Sadly neither of them reached their full potential, either as a tandem or as soloists. Green's story was simply more abrupt, and thus more acute. But even through TPO, you can catch glimpses of those demons closing in on him, beyond the awesome - stunning really - project he engineered. It was his crowning achievement.

I can't believe I'm debating this because I like Kirwan's work very much. He's the reason I own Future Games, and Bare Trees.

You're far more critical of DK, and forgiving of PG. Much as you feel I am, the other way around. You really need to replace that DK avatar with a PG one. Good discussion though.