[face of glass]

Only related to pages 5&6 of the thread.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown."

Johnny, if you're speaking of the incessant repetition here then why does it not bother you in the Tango In The Night songs that eventually made it to the album?
Type down the lyrics and of course they may seem idiotic. That's what can happen to many-a-Rumours line-up song, actually. But this is once again you separating the lyrical content from the musical, otherwise you wouldn't bother in writing/copy-pasteing those down.
I don't take the vocals in "Ricky" as your usual lead vocals. I take the track as an interplay between Chris' singing and Lindsey's arrangement. So yes, I take it as an instrumental, I think the vocal there is an instrument (just like some of them are in "Family Man", for instance. IMO, there's obvious percussive effect attempted when Lindsey occasionally uses repetition). But then again, you said you didn't care much for those so I understand.
So if the vocals on the track are there because of an instrumental effect then is there any need for the piece to have more lyrical lines to it, instead of the repetition?

See, Gaius, what you don't realize is that I don't think EVERY song has to have deep lyrics or some substantive meaning. The ones that do, definitely have more meaning and appeal to me, but that's never stopped me from enjoying the others.

I apologize to you Johnny if it seems like I keep on hammering this certain point to your head. I just rarely see you speaking positively of songs with less "substantive meaning" in the lyrics, but then again maybe it's because they don't move you as much as the others.

It's just that, compared with Christine & Lindsey's other songs on 'Tango' (and even elsewhere), "Ricky" and "Down Endless Street" seem anemic.

It's your opinion and I appreciate it. I think there's about five tracks on Tango that I could replace with these and "You And I Part 1". Mind you, only two of these replaceable ones are Stevie's songs.

They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I do not believe that in emotional involvement, or in the amount of work put in, the Tango In The Night b-sides (save for "Book Of Miracles", which still needs a vocal but should be included into this poll because of ideological reasons) are any less 'lacking' than "Silver Springs".
"You And I Part 1" has the same polish and detailed work in it as the album tracks themselves; I believe you would agree with me on this one.
"Ricky" itself, while seemingly unfinished lyrically, does not need a rewriting because the emphasis is not on the lyrical side. And it is surprisingly polished for something that's just supposed to be a toss-off, or a demo. You don't put such production polish to a sparse lyric like that if you're not going to put it on the album with that very lyric.
"Down Endless Street" is the one you have the strongest case for, but then again it's interesting to note its similarity to the likes of "Holiday Road", where those cheap tone colours are used all over the place. "Holiday Road" is another of those Lindsey songs where the polish and the cheaper sounds from the instruments are combined (in "DES" I'm obviously referring to the keyboard vamp when I'm speaking of the 'cheaper' sound). So it could be that this was another attempt to do a song similar to that ideologically, although the same emotional effect wasn't being sought after.
Note also, that TITN already includes a song that has cheap tone colours all over it; "You And I Part 2". This one differs from "Down Endless Street" only in its mix, in order to give the album the 'precious homogeneity'. Maybe "Down Endless Street" then was meant to be included on the album as is, it only would have been mixed in to give the album the cohesive sound.

They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I don't think they would have spent so much time on a song that they didn't feel strongly about including.

One thing I would like to point out here is that no one knows for sure was "Silver Springs" totally finished when the band chose not to include it to the album. For sure, it was given a mix for the b-side version, but it was never given an album mix, to make it fit in, like they didn't do it with the TITN b-sides. Now doesn't that make it unfinished then, unfinished until the remix for the reissue? May it seem like nitpicking for some but for Fleetwood Mac that wouldn't be nitpicking.
So, who here can honestly state that the TITN b-sides weren't intended for the album? Stevie has three songs in there and "Ricky", "Down Endless Street" and "You And I Part 1" fit to those exact slots, when mixed with the rest of the album. For me any speculation on their finished state isn't anything more than speculation, and it might also be reflective of the person's opinion on these songs.

(Mick and Lindsey have both said that the band was NOT willing to compromise the sound quality, by increasing the running time)

It is very difficult for me to believe that the band couldn't have worked with a cutting engineer with the skills to put "Silver Springs" on the album. So it's very likely that it wasn't intended for inclusion back in 1977.

But the band feels that "Silver Springs" should have "always been a part of 'Rumours'," and I've never heard them say that about "Ricky" or "Down Endless Street" or "Cool Water."

Again, is there anything surprising in this? This is coming from a band who still essentially promotes Rumours MORE than their most recent release; just look at the setlist.
Certainly there has been a lot of discussion on "Silver Springs", but that's also because of the aura and pull of Rumours, in addition to the non-musical package (=the drama) that comes with the songs. Doesn't Stevie storming out of the parking lot after hearing about "Silver Springs" not making the album fit into this like a glove? It's a fascinating story for many, for sure. Similar to the voices in Dark Side Of The Moon, or the supposed backwards messages in "Stairway To Heaven".
You're never going to hear Lindsey mourning over the relegation of "Cool Water", You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street" or "Ricky" to a b-side status. Why would he need to do it anyway, because he's rarely been asked about those albums since the obligatory promotion?

The band had a lot of years to correct their 'mistake'. When CD was made available in the '80s and Ken Caillat was spending his time preparing the Rumours for it (he pulled the first issue from stores because he hated the sound quality) the band chose not to include the song on the album as a bonus, even though such things were becoming common practice. They didn't give a damn about it until after 1997, when the track received the public recognition that it deserves.

What I'd like to know, though, is how well "Silver Springs" would do in a Survivor-type setting, if it HAD been included on 'Rumours' all along. And I have a feeling it might end up being the number one song, or the runner-up (behind "The Chain").

I actually disagree with your theory. If "Silver Springs" had been on the album since the beginning it might have been even more popular than "Dreams", and that would make it another song that suffers from the overplaying factor as well.

The reason why I'm still going on in here is because I identify with those three TITN b-sides on an emotional level. "You And I Part 1" to me, is equal to "Silver Springs" in emotional impact and that's a pretty high compliment in my book.
Would I complain to this extent if I did not like the tracks? Probably not, but I still would complain to an extent. Ideologically "Silver Springs" isn't in any better position than the TITN b-sides, and that's something that one should take into account. I don't care if they were all voted off in the first rounds, but they have as much right to be here as "Silver Springs" had in the Rumours poll. But let Jacob have his poll as it is, I've been enjoying it in spite of my nitpicking and I can always enjoy those songs in my land of Esoterica while blocking my ears from critique.