Answers we will never know
 

I've been thinking recently about the stuff that the late John Fitzgerald (wetcamelfood) and I used to chat about with regards to Fleetwood Mac. Specifically the answers to questions that we either won't know, or won't know for sure.

Like was there a LP released by the Seven Souls in France. A couple of the members claimed to remember it, apparently someone owned a copy in storage, and Bob Welch just couldn't really remember.

Are there any copies still in existence of the 22nd Streatham Cub Scouts LP Songs for Your Enjoyment album featuring Bob Brunning?

If Dave Walker was never in Humble Pie, why is he listed around the internet as being a member?

Did the Stones really want Danny Kirwan?

Did Jenny really have an affair (or more than an affair of the mind) with Weston (Weston said no).

What ever happened to that final Weston album "At this moment (Jan 2008) Bob Weston is recording new material in the Markant Recording Studios in Heeze (the Netherlands). Expect some new material to be released later in the year." Four years later he dies alone in his flat and we will never see that album.

There are probably lots of other unanswered questions, but I started thinking about the Seven Souls album and it made me think of other things.

i wish i could answer that - because walker having ever been a member of the "pie" is utter bull.
walker would mainly be needed as a singer, so the only time he might've been of any interest for the band was WITHOUT marriott. and as jerry shirley was the only guy that used the name "humble pie" with marriott out of the fold, he surely would've mentioned walker in his book ("best seat in the house - drumming in the 70s with marriott, frampton and humble pie") . . . and there's no mention of him at all. and me being an avid "pie" fan - i never heard anything like that.
the only explanation for this connection that i could come up with is some kind of misunderstanding: "humble pie" mixed-up with the short-lived 1974 band "hungry fighter" featuring danny kirwan, andy sylvester, dave bidwell and dave walker. who knows . . . ?! :shrug:
replacing brian jones in 1969? unlikely! an internet feature about the situation at the time mentions "comments of mick jagger and keith richards, both of whom indicate that they didn’t try out anyone other than mick taylor in mid-1969".
when mick taylor left in 1974 the stones tried quite a few axemen (with even more that were never auditioned). but with kirwan being literally out of the limelight and keeping a pretty low profile this time 'round . . . even if they actually should've tried to phone him up, they might have CONSIDERED him, at the most, but i can't imagine that they really WANTED him.

my 2 cents on these two questions.

I remember Weston admitting openly on a Brunning-produced documentary video that he and Jenny had an affair. He may have also said they did not, but I wouldn't know why he would contradict himself on this.

With regards to the second point, I too would love to know what happened to that music!

I've read somewhere, sometime, that Weston did dispute he'd ever had a affair with Jenny, can't remember what interview it was, probably some interview he gave around the time There's A Heaven came out. (I'll have to find my copy of that, I think its signed). I guess it depends what you term an affair though, given the history of the band. Maybe more friends with benefits :laugh:

Then again, he did also once say it was the most expensive affair he'd ever had, something about costing him a career.

From what I've seen of his guitar playing (and from my non-existent technical knowledge on the subject) he seemed a damn waste of a guitar player to have basically never done much after the early seventies. Plus I don't think his solo albums were the best display of his talent either.

For all of Danny's talent, for the craziness of the Stones, I can't see how he would fit into the band.

the "stones" being a suitable band for danny wasn't the point of discussion, i guess - it might have killed him . . . in the truest sense of the word. remember: mick taylor never fitted in on a personal basis and subsequently left the band as a junkie.
the main reason for taylor to quit was the fact that jagger and richards NEVER gave him any place for his songs. they actually nicked a lot of his musical ideas, but the credits would always be "jagger / richards"! so the "stones" would never have been any kind of foil for danny's songwriting, too.
BUT taylor's stint with the band provided them with their musically most acclaimed and memorable era, not least because of his contributions as a guitarist. and that's where i could very well imagine danny having been capable of stepping into taylor's shoes - like taylor he could have suited the "stones" solely as their lead guitarist.
of course these are merely mind games for sure. but as i already said - i believe it would have culminated in another "rolling stone" leaving the band in a box.

It's sitting in an opp shop, wedged between "Swingin' London - Hits of the 60s on the Hammond Organ" and "The Coldstream Guards present the best of Englebert Humperdick". It's only 50p.

it would also probably be overpriced at that...

Although the Welch and Weston years are way out of my swim-lane, I did a quick search of the Seven Souls on the site Discogs https://www.discogs.com/ and they show a French EP https://www.discogs.com/The-Seven-So...elease/3195550
This site is usually pretty good in terms of collecting all the different versions of any given record – from what I can tell, I don’t believe that the Seven Souls recorded enough material for an LP – even one running under thirty minutes (which was not unusual in those days)
I hope that this “answers” at least one of your questions – again, I don’t claim any particular knowledge here, just trying to help
However, questions about the Peter Green era, that’s a different story… www.smilingcorgipress.com

Oh by all accounts the self-titled LP does exist, released on Barclay in 1969, but your point about there not been enough material has been one sticking point on that issue. There are 9 Seven Souls tracks if you add the EP to the singles and b-sides, almost enough for an LP but seriously who puts all their singles on an LP? Self titled albums are the hardest to track down when you are trying to find out of print stuff, it has driven me to the point of insanity several times with different artists.

It was released in France, I think not long after Bob had left the band/band had broken up, it is rumoured, if I remember correctly to have a red cover, and was confirmed by at least one member of the band, who I think Bob asked about it. I suspect it was released by the record company without much input from the members.

There is also a rumoured copy owned by someone who had all their vinyl in storage (and from where the memory of the red cover came from). That info also came via Bob I think.

Having said all of that, what we have is very limited proof, a memory of someone who owned a copy (or maybe it was just the EP) and a memory of a member.

I did at one point send some of the living members I could track down a message via facebook asking about it, but no-one replied. Probably thought I was a bit crazy!

Even my memory of all of this is a bit shaky, there was a discussion post about it on here a few years back, http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=53561 and we did try a bit of internet research to no avail. I suspect someone in France could track down copyright details or such, but after 40 - 50 years who knows.

No amount of internet searching has uncovered anything though, an obscure, yet talented, band that has pretty much been forgotten, and would be completely forgotten except for Welch's membership.

I'd like Martin Birch to go into more detail about the Then Play On sessions, "who played what", etc. I found it interesting he said Green and Kirwan recorded some of their own tunes by themselves. I could see Showbiz Blues, Closing My Eyes and When You Say, but what else? I'm not sure Green plays on My Dream and Although the Sun is Shining. I'm pretty sure both play on Coming Your Way and Before the Beginning because there are alternate takes of basic tracking available. Those sound like band songs rather than overdub tracking. I'd also love to know more about the songs they were working on featured on the Vaudeville Years.

Was Snowy White on Beasts of Burden or not? Where did that info come from?

I didn't realize that Weston said there was no affair, as he doesn't seem to deny it at all on his Q&A on this site - or perhaps I am misreading his answers. See what you think: (he also mentions he read Mick's book and sites no disagreement in that area)

http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/fwm/inde...111&Itemid=215


Specifically this q/a:

4) This may be way too personal, so I'm preparing myself for a "That's none of your #$%@&-ing business" response, but were you and Jenny still an item after your split with FM? If not, have you had a chance since that time to speak with her? Are there any harsh feelings between the two of you over that whole episode? I'm laughing to myself as I write this next part, but please feel free to skip this question. God knows, none of us want to offend or make you feel uncomfortable!

Answered:
Q4: Re Jenny: she's since remarried, and is a qualified counsellor/psychologist; we keep in touch and remain the best of friends. In fact just recently she said much the same thing, that the Mick and Christine distance was sad given the shortness of time...

then this one later:
Hi Bob, time for a "tabloid question", someone has to ask (in fact if anyone already has, I apologise for the repetition). Any regrets about getting involved with Jenny? Was it love or just one of those things? How did it feel to be the third guy to be fired from the 'Mac? Do you regard Mick as a hypocrite given his later behaviour particularly regarding Stevie? On a musical note, did you have the same rapport on stage with Mick that Bob said he had in the last Q&A regarding spontaneous jamming etc? Have you been asked to participate in any solo albums by 'Mac members (Danny excepted)? Thanks for the time taken on this Q&A, I look forward to receiving the album and if you do decide to tour, keep Dublin in mind. (Peter Cunningham, Dublin, Ireland)

Answer:
Hi Peter,

No, no regrets. Jenny and I are still good friends.

Re leaving the Mac: it might sound strange, but I didn't feel at the time that I was fired. Usually you're fired by the boss; in my case there was no boss there. It felt more like a parting of the ways.

Re Mick's behaviour: I really didn't follow that situation; I wasn't interested, not my business. Don't know.

Re musical rapport: working with Mick on drums was a pleasure, but our stage set was a fixed format, very rehearsed, and we never digressed into jamming/improvisation.

Re solo albums: no, Danny was the only one.

See you in Dublin! Mine's a Guinness.

I love Weston’s playing on Murray Head’s “Say It Ain’t So.” Roger Daltrey’s solo version (which was basically The Who minus Pete, but with Denny Lane instead) was great, but the original was much deeper.

There was a quote somewhere, and I can't remember where or when, that he pretty said something about the fact it wasn't physical/sexual. It might have been Jenny that said that rather than Bob, but I do know that one of them did.

I've been on and off here since the Cyberpenguin days so have read so many articles and Q&As over the years that I can't back that up with a reference but I do know I read it about one of them saying it.

Then again, lots has been said in this band and most of it of questionable truth.

The matter of his affair is really not disputed these days. After Mick's tell-all, it was official. We could engage in Bill Clinton-like semantics to define how much an affair has to be an affair to be an affair, but even Jenny Fleetwood (in Mick's book) owns up to it.

Many of the other questions you posed years ago appear to still be in need of answers...and may never get them.

well, look what's coming 'round HERE:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22nd-STRE...-/132582019424
so, if you like to spend a few bob on it . . .
;)

We’ll never know what happened with Danny and Janis Joplin.

Hadn't we already known that they had had sex together?

Our sadly missed John Fitzgerald would have bought that in a second. I'd have been tempted to chuck in some money just so he could have it. He spent so long searching for a copy and its almost cruel that one comes up after he's passed.

Budget doesn't stretch and I really have no interest in listening to it, but hell, it would be awesome to have.

perhaps just a rumor? :laugh: Check out this website- it mentions a magazine article:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/s...M-Danny-Kirwan

Totally off the topic but...

I used to catch up for a coffee with an old work colleague (female) who had a boy about the same age as mine. We'd both take our kids along and have some lunch and a coffee. Someone (anonymously) sent my wife a message on facebook saying that I was having an affair. Good thing my wife knew I was catching up with the woman or I'd be headed for the divorce courts.

I understand what you are saying. Yes, certainly a lot of questionable truths!

About Danny and Janis, there is also a book that was printed out on line - who knows, this may all be rubbish, but here it is:

A book by John Glatt called "Live At The Fillmore East & West"

says: "Years later, Rod Stewart would reveal why he and Ron Wood had given her (Joplin) the cold shoulder.

"Janis Joplin was always chasing me and Ronnie around the place," he explained in 2013, "trying to shag one or the other of us, though without success. We were terrified of her and would hide."

Soon afterward, Janis managed to deflower Fleetwood Mac's original guitarist Danny Kirwan, who was still a virgin.

"Janis suffered from a reputation of eating men alive," said Mick Fleetwood. "Danny . . . looked like a little English choirboy with blond hair. Janis basically summoned him to her room. And Danny at that point I don't think had had sex with anybody. So he turned up the next morning [having] been ravaged by Janis. He had fingernail marks all over him, of which he was quite proud. She was one hell of a girl."

(I see you can buy this book on Amazon)

According to Mick's first book:

(circa 1973) Then someone asked me how I felt about my wife having an affair with Bob Weston, and suddenly it all came crashing down. At first, I tried to figure it out by myself. I realized that, as usual, I hadn't been paying enough attention to Jenny, and she'd allowed herself to be seduced by Bob, a real lady-killer with all the smooth lines.
…..
"Sometimes," Jenny went on, "I think I must be mad to be married to someone who can't even remember my birthday, or the birthdays of our children. At least Bob Weston talks to me, and I can feel like someone else knows I'm there."
….
So Jenny told me that she and Weston had become close back in England, and the relationship had intensified when we were on tour. Hearing this in her own words broke my heart.
…..
The final straw came by the pool of the Marina Hotel in L.A. during a pause in the tour. Weston and my kids were in the pool, playing and laughing. Then he got out and cuddled up with Jenny and began to read poetry to her right in front of me! It was either completely insensitive or without a thought whatsoever. I felt like I was going to have a breakdown. Why were they rubbing it in my face?
……

It was mentioned in an old article on the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and also engineer Dinky Dawson's biography, you can find both here: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=35269

. . . i didn't know that . . . so sorry! :sorry:
but as for the original question: at least we know that the odd copy of this album is still in existence. apart from that - i'm sure that this (admitted) rarity doesn't live up in terms of musical aspects to its monetary value. probably of interest for real hardcore freaks only.

Well done - maybe the list of answers we will never know has gotten shorter!

This is what Mick wrote in his first book (yes, I know it may be not fully reliable, but I share it anyway. You decide what to believe):

The tour went beautifully for the first month (~1973)... Then someone asked me how I felt about my wife having an affair with Bob Weston, and suddenly it all came crashing down. ....
I had noticed that he and Jenny had been taking long walks at Benifols and seemed close on the tour, but I had no idea that anything was going on, apart from the feeling that something wasn't right. I remembered trying to talk to Weston in the hotel bar while we were in Detroit. He seemed real down, and I asked him if he was feeling all right. And of course he was going through hell because he'd been a real buddy of mine, and he hadn't told me what was going on between him and Jenny.
....
Eventually, I confronted Jenny, and it all came out. "Look," I said to her, "what's going on with you and Bob Weston? How could this happen?" She was quite calm about it. "Mick, I'm tired of feeling like I'm alone even when you and I are together. Ever since we met you've had this trait of just wandering through things, being aloof, not paying attention to me or your daughters. You're just not that involved."
.... Of course, everything Jenny said was true. For years I had been more married to Fleetwood Mac than to her. And my personality well, anyone craving a lot of attention from me is in for a lot of trouble. It's terrible, and I know it.....
So Jenny told me that she and Weston had become close back in England, and the relationship had intensified when we were on tour. Hearing this in her own words broke my heart.
The result was the traditional stiff upper lip on my part. I just said, we gotta carry on with this tour, no matter what. Jenny and the kids left the tour and went to Los Angeles. I was really hurting, but still trying to keep the band going. I kept thinking that this was a make-or-break tour and that I didn't want to be the one who ****ed it up.

We went back on tour, which lasted until October 26, 1973.... We were in Lincoln, Nebraska. John Courage fired Bob Weston, telling him the tour was over and that
it would be for the best if he didn't travel with the band. He was put on a plane and we didn't see him again for years.

One thing I'd love to know is the full story of how Christine chased John around with a knife. Bob said he had stories about the McVies' marriage that would make one hell of a chapter in a book. I wish I knew more specifics of their marital craziness.

Or maybe I don't.

Surprisingly, no-one has snapped this up and it is still for sale.

Yes I remember whether it was from John years later or in Mick's first book but there were very ugly and physical times between the McVies. We will definitely never know.

I didn't find any "knife" episode in Mick's book. I found these, about the Rumours recording sessions days.

John and Chris were only nominally married at that point. Actually, she'd been seeing our lighting director, Curry Grant, in secret while we were on the road. John suspected something was going on. He'd say to me, "He's doing her, you know." And I'd say, "No, no, no, John, it's all in your mind." Soon Curry started having trouble with the rest of the crew; they saw what was happening and didn't like it. It got so Curry couldn't ride in the van with the rest of them. Colonel Courage would berate the readies, and they'd say they hated Curry 'cause he was messing around with Christine. So the colonel and I confronted her, and she told us it was true.
John was very upset, and we fired Curry because it was disrupting the band. Chris was told it had to be that way, and she understood.

That was our attitude. No matter how awful things became, the band had to come first. It was do or die. But it made touring very, very hard.

That is NOT what I said. I am not the poster who posted about a knife. I said their relationship was "physical" at times.

You are right. Sorry, it was aleuzzi's Post. I quoted the wrong post.

If John Fitzgerald was still alive I'd be tempted to buy it for him or at least contribute towards buying it. Its kind of cruel that it came up for sale after his death when he'd been searching for it for years.

What he didn't mention is the band paid Christine to fly off to see him on breaks.

Very touching