Fourth Fritz Clip! Reconsider from 1967....
 

This is probably one of the oldest Fritz songs and was written by Javier Pacheco before he joined Fritz. He believes the song may have been played in The Toads and/or in another band, The Moonrakers. It was recorded in San Mateo in 1967, just a few months after Stevie and Brian joined the group. Lindsey is on guitar with Brian on bass. Stevie and Javier are singing background vocals and this is a good example for hearing Lindsey's early vibrato in his singing voice. Music and lyrics written by Javier Pacheco, (c) 1966. Enjoy!

http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/fritz_clips.htm

- Marty

Wow...I don't think it sounds like Liddy at all. It's too short for me to get a feel of the song, but not too shabby.


Thanks for sharing this old clip. :thumbsup:


-Curt

Sampler objection
 

I'd like to thank Javier for giving us access to these recordings, first off. But I am a little perturbed by these 'samplers'. If you're going to share, what's the fun in teasing us with fragments of songs? I'm sure you've got an eagle's eye on Ebay to keep people from selling the full versions, so what motive is there exactly to leave us hanging on these half-songs? To be perfectly honest, I think that if you're going to play, you should play fair.

Awesome! It sounds so 60's!

I love the clip but I want to hear the whole song!!

Cool!
 

Yep, that is definitely a 60's groove. Thanks again so much for posting these; they are definitely fun to hear!

Thanks for sharing. I do have to agree with bjk3047 though... it would be nice to hear the whole thing unless a Fritz cd is imminent

Pip

I must admit I'm pretty surprised by a couple of these posts. The Fritz snippets are very kindly being made available by Javier to let people hear what Fritz sounded like back then-- there is no fee being collected to hear this music. This is music from 34+ years ago and clearly is not just floating around. Perhaps someday they would be released on CD-- Javier has posted about such a possibility a few times on The Ledge in the past but there were still issues to be worked out. In the meantime, why not just enjoy that you are getting to hear them at all? I see no reason why Javier has to make any of it available, especially after all of these years. The Fritz sampler that he sent me has over 23 minutes of music (16 tracks)-- as long as Javier is happy with how it is being posted to date and the response, perhaps all of it will be made available.

- Marty

This is probably all been talked about before and I haven't read it, but...

I like hearing the clips, but it would be nice to hear a whole song once in a while. Yes thank you Javier for making them available but why does it take this bad e-bay sale to dig this stuff out of the woodwork? I'm sure these songs have some great parts to them that we can't hear in a clip.

If it's not for sure that Javier will release a whole Fritz CD... and quite honestly I don't see it happening from Lindsey especially or Stevie (he seems ruculant to ever own up to the BN CD)... then what is the point on sitting on all this music that we want to listen to? Sometimes I feel like Javier is dangling it in front of us like cocaine in front of Mick so that we can beg him and plead with him for more. So he can finally get the attention he's always wanted.

Oh please! IF all these songs were to be released on CD, the DUMBEST thing he could do would be to GIVE away the entire songs. I know they could always be file swapped- if/when they are released, but, for a cd in relatively small demand, it would probably take forever to find them all file swapping.
Perhaps he is piqueing our interest in a Fritz recording, so that the CD might come to fruition.
Keep up the good work, Javier! :woohoo:

IF it's released. I'm greatly under the influence of believing that Lindsey won't really go through with getting this off the ground. You know Lindsey. So then you will have all these little clips and no officially-released CD. If you ask me, it's all a money making thing. That's all it is. Javier wasn't famous in a band but Lindsey and Stevie were.

Well, I love hearing the songs even if it's only part of them. So thank you so much and keep up the good work! :]

If there is even the slightest chance that Javier could release these songs on a commerical package in the future, it is certainly not in his best interest to have any of them posted in their entirety now. Perhaps by giving fans snippets of the songs now, it can generate some fan-based interest which, in turn, can generate some pressure for a commerical release in the future.

Just my opinion...

- Marty

I'm sorry, but how does this enter into his decision? Either he wants to give us the whole thing or not. Are you insinuating that if enough of us asked and pleaded and begged, that he might just give us another taste?

I'm still going to refer to my previous comment. IF you're going to to play, you should play fair. He has chosen to make this stuff available, he should do it the right way.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that. I was sent a total of 16 tracks and the request was to post them at regular intervals. I have been doing so every other Thursday since I received the CD. If Javier asked me to stop though or remove what has been posted though, I would as it is his material. Pleading and begging is not required to hear more of the sampler!

I go back to my comments above too and do not understand what you mean by "play fair" and "the right way". These tracks have not been heard in 30+ years and Javier has archived them for all of this time. Getting to hear any part of any of them is a treat and just because Javier would like people to hear what Fritz actually sounded like does not mean, to me, that he has to post everything that he has available.

- Marty

I understand the frustration at these carrot-dangling snippets, but we must be careful not to seem ungrateful. Javier is under no obligation to give us anything.

But since he has decided to share the music with us, I think it would make infinitely more sense to post the complete songs.

Let's face it, even if this stuff is released on CD, its appeal will be very limited. Considering Say You Will has been rather lackluster in sales, I think this is something that only would sell a few thousand, especially considering the sound is naturally rather dated. Sorry, but that's my analysis.

And if Javier does release this stuff, I bet that posting complete songs here would not deter any of the diehards from buying a CD. How many people didn't buy Say You Will because they already had most of the songs? I suspect not one person passed on the CD.

Agreed.

Thing is, this material is never going to be made commercially available. From what I've heard, the tapes themselves have considerable noise and sound very dated, especially for studio and soundboard material. I don't think anyone is going to want to invest in fixing them up, manufacturing the product, and marketing it if, at best, 5,000 copies are going to be sold. It isn't realistic.

The music itself really has no market value. With the exception of us die-hard fans, who in the hell has ever heard of Fritz? No one and we'd be the only people to buy the product. Plus, we can't even get Buckingham Nicks on CD, I highly doubt we'd get this stuff.

I agree, but don't know Javier's financial situation. Maybe if he made 10k off this, that might be significant to him. And if that's the case, I certainly don't want to deny him that. He's taken care of these tapes all these years...... :nod:

I think the point being made is that there's not only not 10k to be made, but 0k. The fact that there's too much work to do on the masters for the lack of demand negates profits. Obviously, nothing but speculation, but it seems like given the possible circumstances, Javier should reconsider his carrot dangling.

It is disheartening. To you and Javier I say thank you, I appreciate you and carry on. :thumbsup:

Thanks Javier!
 

I agree. It is disheartening. This isn't a question of playing fair. Javier owes us nothing. We're being treated to some rare recordings we thought we'd never hear. I look at that as a very positive thing. If he should decide to eventually release these in their entirety, we should pay for them just as we would for any other artist. I, for one, love carrots... As for there not being a demand, obviously there is. Someone out there made $1500 off 2 singles, however illegal that was. Not too shabby, I'd say. Again, thank you Javier.

Christina

That's exactly my point. The BN master tapes got lost? Whatever. Lindsey's holding out.

It's a pipe dream that Fritz's stuff will ever be released. If Javier was in it for the music he'd post full songs. It's the money he could get if it was a release. How else do you explain it? Otherwise wouldn't he be willing to share?

It makes sense Javier might want to benefit from his stewardship of these recordings. Just the same, the only fans interested in them are hard-core fans like us. Does it really make sense to tease and irritate your only audience? No, Javier doesn't owe fans a thing. True. It's also worth noting there may be a limit to how long these recordings are worth anything to anyone. I find it hard to believe these recording would ever get the interest of a record label. If Javier wanted to share his treasure he could. We'd be very grateful for the opportunity to hear whatever he has in it's entirety. There must be something that can be done to bring these recordings to fans who'd appreciate them AND give Javier his just rewards?

Of course that assumes Javier does not overestimate their true worth. They're only worth something to us, not the general public. It's obvious some fans don't agree with the way Javier's playing his hand. I'm not speaking for everyone, but to some people the snippets are more of an insult than a treat. I personally am not intersted in hearing these little bits. I might pay something to hear the entire songs, but the snippets might be lessening my interest more than anything. Also, some fans are losing interest in Fleetood Mac again with the tour over and no new project on the horizon. Some food for thought.

Maybe Javier should take a page from the boolegger's playbook and auction his goods to the highest bidder? To me $1500 for two singles was ridiculous but that's just me. If Javier has the legal rights to these recordings I see eBay as one way he might get financial rewards. He could also post complete songs for a download fee, or he could release his own cd for sale here on the Penguin like Bob Welch did. There are ways to satisfy everyone if folks see reason. The snippets...the snippets just aint gonna do it, Jav.

Basic economics. If the Mona Lisa went up for sale, a virtual impossibility unless the Louvre and the French nation get inconceivably strapped for cash someday, it would sell for hundreds of millions of dollars. Of that I have no doubt.

Does that mean there is a huge demand for it? No. It means that something so rare will stir the passions of a few collectors with means who will outbid each other and artificially drive up the price.

Well, now that they are not taking oil bribes from Iraq - you never know :shrug: :eek: :] :] :]

I just could not resist - back to the regularly schedules program :laugh:

These snippets have piqued my interest as a curiosity. The late-60s Frisco sound is interesting, especially coming out of Lindsey's and Stevie's mouths, but I am not sure these recordings would have mass appeal.

Music has evolved, or some might say devolved, considerably since. Where this Fritz music is and where and Lindsey and Stevie are today is galaxies apart.

Release? Yes, sure, as a curiosity some folks will buy it. But it would not be a massive seller.

It is kind of Javier to share the snippets with us. Perhaps he would like to share full songs if we ask nicely? :woohoo:

Of course he might, they belong to him and he can do whatever he likes. If he thinks and chooses to charge for them, that's his right, they're his songs and his recordings.

I'm sure it was never Javier's or Marty's intention to insult any fans by offering good size clips of these songs. I think it's insulting to Marty and Javier to complain about them. If you and others are not interested in hearing them and feel insulted, please spare Marty, Javier and the rest of the fans who are interested.

There is a growing trend in thinking that all music should be free, just as the fan sites that host this music and provide the music are offered free to fans by a handful of FM site owners. It's laughable to think that the same fans who are complaining and feel insulted at the carrots being dangled in front of them would actually end up paying for the songs if Javier did actually release them for a fee online. They'd be swapped around in record time. Yea, yea, yea, we've all heard it before, the fans will pay for things just give it to them. I tend to think that group is smaller and smaller and the more music that's provided free since the fan sites started regular file sharing, makes me realize that very few would pay.... and most (regardless of income and ability to pay) would be swapping them left and right.

For the people who feel insulted and are questioning motives, it's simple, don't listen to the clips and pretend they don't exist and let the fans who are interested and appreciative enjoy them. Try not to insult Marty and Javier and ruin it for everyone else.

Thanks to Marty and Javier for giving the fans an oppportunity to listen to this long lost music.

Did you ever download the Gift of Screws files? Did you buy "Say You Will?"

I know of bands that make individual songs available for free in their sites before even releasing albums. And then the fans who download the songs go buy the albums.

Are you speaking for yourself?

ITA - I did and bought many copies of SYW and would do the same with GOS - if he EVER releases it :laugh:

Whoa! I didn't say I felt insulted with the snippets being posted. I said some fans posting frustrations in this thread seem to think Javier is misplaying his hand. What I meant by that is some fans seem to be voicing frustration NOT because they think the music should be free, but becasue posting snippets seems insulting if fans get the impression Javier's only using Marty and this board to whip up interest in a commercial product in a teasing and annoying way. I want to be clear. This is my interpretation of some posts in this thread, not my own opinion. Also, I don't see why pointing this out is ruining anything for other fans. How so?

What I said about my own opinion is the snippets are not heightening my interest. I'm stating a fact that Javier might want to consider. It's ok if you feel otherwise. Most fans do. My statement is not intended to dismay fans who want to hear the snippets. If voicing honest opinions leads to having full songs released will everyone feel the same way about the unpopular posts? It's clear some fans think any type of negative comment will limit the possiblity of the music ever being available. I don't think that's true. Why does this discussion have to be one of taking sides? I don't see why Marty or Javier would get disheartened by posts that tell how all fans truly feel. Isn't that the real reason why these cuts are being posted here? If the music was posted here for pure enjoyment there would be no discussion. Since it appears this is more of a trial balloon on releasing the rest of what Javier has, why not be honest about our opinions? Again, I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone. I'm stating an opinion about the way the whole thing is being funneled through this board. You don't have to agree. I'm not disheartened by anyone else's opinion. It's all good.

You make some valid points. This whole enterprise has always struck me as a way to stick your toe in the water without committing.

If Javier is interested in releasing the music for the solely sake fo folks enjoying, I agree that he should share the full songs. If he wants to make money from it, which I completely understand, he should do so as well. But the latter does not void the former. I think he could share the full songs and sell them later. But that's an argument I've already made.

Way to go, G en B, I agree. Ungrateful brats! :D Just kidding... :xoxo:
AMber

Yes I downloaded GOS and yes I bought SYW. This is not what I was talking about.

Of course I'm speaking for myself.

I also saw a FM fan site post the bonus tracks to the Tusk and Rumours reissues for downloading. I see fans complaining about not getting extras from the band and when they give us something a fan site posts the tracks so people don't have to buy it. :shrug:

Yes, there are a core group of fans who are going to buy the commercial releases of everything FM and it's members put out. IMO, I think there are many of those same fans who would not pay to buy Fritz recordings and wouldn't care if they received them by sharing files. I don't think you can compare the release of Lindsey's GOS tracks on SYW to Fritz recordings. While many of the core fans bought the reissues as soon as they came out, many did not buy them and once they had the bonus tracks from the fan site who chose to post them, I would bet many will never buy it. Perhaps those same fans would have downloaded them off of one of the major file sharing sites anyway. I'm only trying to make the comparison that for some fans those types of tracks are not in a class with new released songs from FM or one of its members.

glitter,

I obviously misunderstood your post

I wasn't quite sure if you felt that way or you were expressing a general feeling you were getting from other fans.

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

Sometimes there are good reasons why people can't or won't share things, even if the people who want it may not want to understand, or aren't privy to all of the reasons why something can't be shared. Sometimes fans just assume they know all of the reasons, when in fact they don't.

By the same token there are a lot of FM fans who have a boatload of private material and don't want it shared with all fans and get mad at those who do choose to share it. Because of the ease and low cost of file sharing on fan sites, many new fans are able to build a collection so that they can one day trade. There are very few sites who will trade for blanks and many fans don't have anything a more experienced fan will want.

I suppose there are all kinds of reasons why fans share or don't share, or only share with their closest friends or groups. I guess its wrong to assume we know why someone does or does not do something if we don't know all the facts behind their decision.

I see what you're saying. I didn't mean posting the clips is an insult compared to entire songs. My reading of certain posts is that some fans are feeling used in the process. Dangling the clips to see if everyone will go crazy about entire songs might seem less than noble to some. Are the clips out there for enjoyment only or are they intended to get fans to beg for more? I might be wrong, but I thought those type of posts were expressing ire at the process not the clips themselves.

That was Peacekeeper from the ACLU sampler. ;)

And the sma ething happens with Lindsey's version of Bill Yellow Taxi every once in awhile and the person bragging about it tells a tale about not being able to circulate it or else someone in the record biz will lose their job. :rolleyes: :laugh:

This is an interesting discussion. But if may bold enough to interpret what David was saying, he is making the very reasonable argument that if you have something you don't want to share, it makes no sense to talk about it, or brag about it, with other fans who will naturally also want to get their hands on it. I think his point is a good one.

I agree with people who brag about it. But not every case is the same and just because fans find out one person has something, that doesn't mean the person who has is now obligated to share it. Sometimes not everything about a situation is known and people just assume things they really shouldn't.