Stevie as scapegoat
 

Hi everybody! (I'm Dr Nick...)
So this is a very contentious issue I'm going to open up here.
Stevie Nicks as scapegoat!
It appears that almost everything that is wrong with Fleetwood Mac is in some way, Stephanie Lynn Nicks' fault. Do you agree? Or partially agree, or disagree?
I'm not putting this out here to defend or to criticise Stevie. I'm raising the issue to get a range of perspectives, both positive for Stevie and negative against Stevie.
And if you want my opinion? Well I think she is largely the one stopping Fleetwood Mac recording new music since 2009. But I don't blame her for Lindsey for leaving/being terminated. I think that's the easy way out to lump all of the blame for that tragic circumstance on to her. And I don't think she has as much power in the band as people seem to believe.
In the meantime, enjoy some of Stevie's best piano playing:

I think the decision was made based on a mixture of business and personal reasons. I believe all 5 contributed to the breakdown. This happened over time. I think it is was clear after Say You Will that Stevie never wanted to record with Lindsey again. I think Lindsey’s attitude/behavior also plays a part. I am not convinced by that video shot by fans means he never said he wanted to delay the tour until 2019. He easily could have said that to FM in the weeks preceding that video. His request combined with his comments over the Classic shows and his manager PLUS the ongoing tension with Stevie may have been what cemented his fate. Was it the right decision? I don’t think so. She is obviously narcissistic and has an overflated ego (as does Mick, and as does Lindsey). It’s disappointing. I think the four will regret the decision. But the decision was made. I think the idea anyone is above being fired is ridiculous, no matter how popular or important someone is. If they had given Stevie her walking papers for not recording what became BuckVie, that would have been their right.

I am trying not to argue about it with anyone anymore because it is exhausting and people are upset and need to have a target. Right now that target is Stevie and Mick.

Wow, I agree with everything you said! I don't understand this Stevie fans vs Lindsey fans fiasco going on here. Actually, I'm kind of confused by it, because how can you be a fan of one and not the other? Just because some people are still fans of FM and plan to see them in concert doesn't mean we're happy Lindsey is gone. The two ideas aren't exclusive. If FM had fired Stevie, I would still buy their albums and probably see them in concert, IF all four band members were performing.

Seeing one poster gloat about poor ticket sales for some of the FM dates on another thread, for example. It doesn't bother me, it's just so childish. And she would be the first one to have a fit if someone posted how some of the Buck/Vie shows sold poorly, which is ironic. Or if someone posted how happy they were Lindsey's solo album and or solo tour might be postponed now. It's so weird, I mean why would anyone be happy about that? Even if you don't like Lindsey, for some bizarre reason, why would you be happy his album or tour was postponed? I mean, why would a non-fan care at all, let alone gloat about it?

So while I'm disappointed they fired Lindsey, I believe they had their reasons because they're giving up a guaranteed payday. Whether this new lineup will record together, I don't know and don't care, I'm just taking it a day at a time and looking forward to seeing how this version of Fleetwood Mac does.

Yes, agree with all of your post too! We will just have to wait and see what happens! This is just another dramatic chapter in the band’s history!

I think what you don't realize is, MOST of us used to be fans of BOTH. I know I was, but she has squandered that. You can never believe anything that comes out of her mouth anymore. She can't keep her stories straight and has changed not for the better the last couple of years. Not trying to be a d#ck about it, it's just the way it is for a lot of us. Older age is not agreeing with her. That being said I'll always love a lot of her music, it's not about that, it's about her behavior specifically the last couple of years.

Most of us? What exact number are you basing that on?

Last couple of years? No real numbers?

You can be a duck if you want to be.

A lot of us? How many of us?

Glad I didn't comment on her age.

A lot? Like how many?

Couple of years? Anyway you could come up with a number?

_________________________________________

I became a Stevie Fan in 1983 (specific number). And
I'm not happy with her right now (5/14/2018). But I'm
still going to listen to her music whenever I want.

#istandwithlindsey

Could that which we call a rose cease to have its scent if we called it by another name?

I've said before that I think it is in part due to misogyny that Stevie is being blamed for everything. But I was told not to discuss it so I don't even know if it's okay for me to say that in this thread. :shrug:

I agree that the video and the statements from those close to the band were proof positive of nothing.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. If it walks like a duck...

I think she does get a lot of blame over the years for a lot of reasons, but that's not to excuse the diva she is either.

The only shady thing I think happened was Christine mentioned she was, "Already in London" by the time this decision was made. I think she honestly wants nothing much to do with it, it's not her drama so to speak.

Mick loves to make everything about him anyway so I never believe much that comes out of his mouth.

Overall, they are all part of the equation. They have been fighting like this for years, it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone anymore that this has been building up since their 1997 reunion and Pandora's Box has finally opened up with this band.

I was upset by it all at first, but now I'm just like ....oh well. We have 40+ years of music to dwell on so let it be what it is at this point.

One thing we can say for sure, Fleetwood Mac has never been a dull story of a band.

Yes! This, I totally agree with this. She changed from a rock 'n roll hippie into a rock 'n roll diva. As for the music, I like some of the "newer" stuff but I usually play the old stuff (from BN to RAL).

I've expressed some of this in other threads but this seems more appropriate for the purpose.

Yes I do blame her for a lot.

2005 or so: I'm not doing another Mac album as the only female.

2014: Can we delay Mac activity even though Chris is back cos I've booked studio time.

One tour later

2016: I don't want to do a Mac album period.

My considered opinion is that Mick should have said "We're not waiting" to her in 2016 (better still 2014) the same way he claims he's done with Lindsey.

More than anything I blame Mick. He's just got too much of a soft spot for Stevie to put his foot down with her about anything these days. Did he seriously think having BOTH those two back in the band was going to work for any great length of time. All it produced was 20 years of jack s*** apart from Say You Will and that poxy excuse for an EP.

Yes, it definitely is, and it’s a big part of the reason I don’t post here much anymore. I also saw where Christine was called a skank because of Lindsey’s departure as well. But it’s more often aimed at Stevie.

And the fact that you were told not to discuss it is appalling.

When they started to turn on Christine I realized that we'd started to cross the Rubicon. :lol::eek:

Mick's soft spot is that he knows which side his bread is buttered on, realizing that an FM with Stevie means much more money in his wallet than one without. This is why so many are disgusted - this once great band has been reduced to nothing more than a cash cow for him. Witness his charging fans $600 a pop plus fees for a brief meeting (ticket price not included!) as part of what I call his "Meet & Fleece" program.

There are also those who are very disappointed with Christine as I am but I'm certain that in an earlier era Christine would have been much more outspoken. The thing is she's now pushing 75 and age sadly does take its toll. :(

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

To be genuinely fair here...she did drop 24k in 2014 but she still went out on the road with Mac. She didn't hold the band hostage so she could do a tour. She waited until time with the Mac was done. She probably wanted to go out on the road immediately for that album and did not. Because she knows she probably would have been thrown out of the band to some extent.

To add to that: She was done with Mac in 2013 and she was probably anticipating to finish her album and do a tour - then Christine came back in the fold and added another extended tour. She should have theoretically done her album 2014 - toured 2014 or 2015 and then back to mac in 2016 but that didn't happen that way. So I think it would have been unreasonable for Mick to say in 2016 and 2017 too bad let's go we have another tour. They know she flips to her solo work after mac work.

Markolas, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on your perspective of what went down. I pretty much see it your way, too. It's been obvious to many people that Stevie won't record with Lindsey anymore. It's frustrating, but after 40 plus years, they've each earned the right to pick who they can or will work with. FM made a choice and they went with Stevie. It could just as easily have been Lindsey they went with.

I do think Mick sided with Stevie for economic reasons, but that's his right, too. "If we keep Lindsey, we'll get another FM album perhaps, but they won't take John or me on tour with them and the tour won't make as much money anyway because a FM without Stevie won't play big venues or command higher prices. If we keep Stevie, we'll get another FM album perhaps, and we'll get to tour and make more money because a FM with Stevie will play big venues and command higher prices." That's business, but some fans think Mick and John should be content to play on an album (that won't sell well, anyway) and not make money by touring in order to keep their legacy intact. Touring is how this band makes their income. If FM had kicked Stevie out, there would be no arena tour. Actually, there's be no tour at all for John and Mick. Look at what happened when they released Buck/Vie- Lindsey and Christine toured without Mick and John. So yes, it's unfortunate they kicked Lindsey out, but I can see from a financial pov why they did. They've got bills, too.

I think it's basically that he produces. If he was just a guitar player/singer/writer I doubt she would be as bothered. But because he produces, he gets a big part in how her songs end up and so they clash. He's also very perfectionist in the studio which I assume she (and probably others) gets irritated or impatient with. The past couple of years he was really trying to lure her back in the studio with him but it didn't work. I think she had a big grudge over SYW which she didn't like making nor did she like the final product so she thought a new FM album would be like SYW part 2. Even I thought this as well which is why I was pleasantly surprised by the BuckVie album. It was overall very sunny and fun and light and I think had she known it would end up sounding that way, she might've agreed to do it.

Really appreciate your post. It eloquently sums up how I feel about the changes in the band, and the ranting on this board.
Agree with everything you wrote.

If it wasn't Lindsey's choice, Christine was not involved, and John was... John, then who is left to actively want Lindsey out?

It pains me to say it because I love Stevie, but the conclusion is inevitable.

This has not made me hate Stevie, though. I for one think her mind was clouded with grief, and Mick went along with it because he knows she is the one who brings in the most fans.

Reading the threads in the Rumours forum, yeah it seems like there's been an element of misogyny in the over-the-top rage being expressed by some posters. It makes it difficult to take anything they say seriously.

I found it annoying that Nicks was avoiding recording a new Mac album, and I can see why Buckingham fans would feel its really unfair that Nicks didn't get bounced out of the band for refusing to record but Buckingham does for refusing to tour. I think it IS unfair, but I also think its the reality of the business side of Fleetwood Mac: Initially Nicks didn't have much influence in the band even though she was the obvious star of the band. That has changed over the years, I think - Nicks wasn't fired for refusing to record because she couldn't be, whereas Buckingham was fired for not touring because he doesn't hold the power in the band now - Nicks (and Fleetwood) do.

Ultimately though I think the working relationship between Buckingham and Nicks just finally completely broke down, so this result was eventually inevitable. And I think what many irate posters on this board are forgetting is that Fleetwood Mac has always morphed into different bands....saying that Mac should have "just broken up" instead of moving on post-Buckingham is ignoring that fact.

I get very annoyed and disheartened when seeing people apparently blaming Stevie for some of Lindsey's behaviour and the times he most definitely crossed the line as a band member (which has been well documented by various people who are not all team Stevie) - like 'she drove him to it'. Yes I know Stevie has her ego and impetuousness etc but that's no countenance, nor is it okay because particular person is supposed to be a 'musical genius'.

Everything that's been said about Stevie to date could also be applied to Lindsey. So I'm not into blame game.

There are people who say Lindsey's more disturbing behaviour is all in the past, he's mellowed, etc. We might just be seeing one side. The descriptions of him during Rumours and Tusk are almost as if a 'split personality'. Going from charming and agreeable to negative and very testy in an instant. I think he'd still have a tendency to be egotistical, controlling, impatient and difficult to deal with at times.

Over the years it seems Christine has often acted as calming influence and diplomat between parties, but she can't handle all of it and it doesn't fix underlying issues.

I love LB's brilliance as a guitarist and what he contributed. I'm sorry they couldn't work things out so he could continue with the group. It's a shame if he still can't get past his insecurities. (Egotistical people can still have serious insecurities. In fact there may often be a connection.) I believe that Mick may also have had his own difference of opinion with Lindsey. But probably no side entirely to blame on this one. To pin it all on Stevie I think is unfair and yes - shades of misogyny.

I'm not saying all this just to 'hate on' LB. My favourite FM albums are still the ones with Buckingham Nicks but I am aware they had interesting history before that and Buckingham isn't everything about this group.

I still have a few misgivings but willing to give the new lineup a chance.

This is the most common sense response I have seen on any section of this board about this issue. Thank you. They all contributed to this...but the fact remains that it is over and we probably will never know all the reasons. Time to move on!!

You hit it right on the head. Lindsey is very, very talented but recording with him is exhausting. He is a dominating presence who wants to control every element of the recording process and it takes many, many months to record an album with him. That's why Stevie wants no part of that process. That is why Stevie is very likely to change her tune about recording once she sees how wonderful a collaborator and songwriter Neil Finn is. In fact, Neil just recorded his last album (the amazing "Out of Silence") in eight hours which was broadcast live on Facebook and YouTube. Eight hours of collaborative joy with Neil vs. eight months of dictatorial pain with Lindsey.

Note to Neil's resident cheerleader: Christine McVie and the other members of Fleetwood Mac seemed to have no problem working with Lindsey on the "BuckVie" album. Sounds like you're just parroting the opinion of the only member who has a problem working with him. This is exactly why it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who wanted him replaced by a Heartbreaker, killing two birds with one stone, figuratively speaking.

Christine would never say a bad word about anyone.

John rarely complains about anything.

Mick didn't complain often about Lindsey as Mick is usually focused on getting the best quality studio album completed.

So that leaves Stevie as the one to speak out about Lindsey's exhausting studio projects. Anyone who has watched one of the Mac documentaries knows that Lindsey spends many, many months on an album project sometimes spending weeks on a single song while keeping the other band members in a separate room waiting for hours until Lindsey needs them for something. Lindsey can sometimes take days to decide on one small part of one song. And I commend Lindsey for his hard work and single-minded focus which is an extraordinary skill that resulted in some of the best music of all-time. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for Stevie to say that at the age of 70, she no longer wants to go through that exhausting process of recording a studio album with Lindsey.

And anyone who knows me will tell you that I don't parrot anyone ...

This post amuses me, you referring to the band members as if you know them.
But anyways, it's not that Christine "doesn't say anything bad about anyone". First of all she actually has-- she can be very blunt and she has openly critiqued both Stevie and Lindsey in the past. Apparently (on a lighter note) she even would tell engineers what "ugly fcking shirts" they're wearing!
Second of all, she actually spoke actively about how much she LOVED making the album. Not like she just "didn't say anything bad", she really praised the experience. In a radio interview she did just around the end of last year she casually referred to Lindsey as her "favorite guy to work with".
But I do agree with you that Lindsey's pace probably makes Stevie impatient because it's no fun to her. She's even said she just thinks Lindsey's process is no fun. However I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people think she can just not do it, just because she doesn't want to. She's a member of a band. It's her obligation as a band member to record with her band when they want to record. It wasn't just Lindsey who was ready to record-- it was all of them. Imagine if someone just walked into work and said they don't want to do whatever project their coworkers are doing, just because they don't want to. That's not how life works. Lindsey himself by all accounts had a miserable, near sanity breaking experience recording Tango-- complete with Mick passing out drunk/high in his home, Stevie flying off to sing with Tom Petty for no reason and more-- but he still did it! It's ridiculous that this band has become the "whatever Stevie wants" show.

I see the situation as much more of a balanced problem than you do. I see it being an equal parts Stevie and Lindsey issue while you see this as primarily a Stevie issue. Stevie is the person who gets impatient and doesn't like to spend many months on a project and Lindsey is a bit of a control guy who seems perfectly happy to spend weeks on a single song or part of a song and doesn't want others taking any control away from him. Just as Stevie doesn't want to record an exhausting Lindsey-led studio album, Lindsey doesn't want to change his working style and record an album in one month rather than many months. Life is a two way street and neither side has been ready to compromise which is one of the reason why things broke down earlier this year.

I'm well aware that both sides have their issues. The reason I'm focusing on Stevie is because Stevie is the one that the band has been catering to for years now. And they've done that even though (in my opinion) she has been treating the band like a side piece ever since her solo career took off. They've not recorded when she was busy with something else or didn't want to, they delayed an entire tour by a full year because she wanted to promote her solo album more, they literally released an album with every single other member of the band on it and called it a duet because she didn't want to record. When they did record for the EP, it was when Lindsey basically had to morph into Dave Stewart 2.0 and welcome her into his home with his family and give her the warm and cuddly environment that she likes. Lindsey probably doesn't think Stevie is a cup of tea to record with either. He probably think she needs to be pampered and she's never satisfied and she's not some skilled musician like Christine. But in the end, he was still willing to do it and yet she's the one who has consistently gotten what she wanted. Lindsey on the other hand, didn't get the final album he wanted and then even got pushed out of the band.

You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.

He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

Again, only one member of the band views him as "exhausting" and has refused to record with him. This one member of the band has now been given carte blanche because, when push comes to shove, Mick knows which side his bread is buttered on and that's all the money-grubber really gives a sh!t about.

Agreed John. This site sometimes seems like an alternative reality seen only through the eyes of Lindsey Buckingham. Perhaps the website should change its name to Lindsey's Ledge.

So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.

Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/1...instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!