There can be only one
 

There is an honest and genuine debate to be had;

Would Lindsey joining Mick, John and Chris (without Stevie) been more successful than Stevie joining Mick, John and Chris (without Lindsey) in 1975 or vice-versa? Obviously that assumes at least somebody else joins with Stevie (perhaps BW stays but LB doesn't join).
Who had the biggest impact???

The truth is, probably neither band would have sufficiently made enough waves. But of the two, who would have garnered more success?

I genuinely don't know. Depends on the other guitarist I guess.

It’s conjecture, but I imagine FM would have continued to do moderately well to even a little better with just LB and CM fronting the band. But for how long? Two or three years tops?

SN would not fit in with the core trio unless LB was there. She ended up being the reason FM became superstars. Without her, they were merely a very fine rock band. But LB’s presence as the bridge between SN and the former blues players was essential in order for it to happen.

In short, FM could only be the iconic band they became with all five of them on board. After LB left in 87, they declined. After SN and CM stopped touring and SN left in 1990, they declined further. After CM outright left in 1998, they were able to continue but without as huge a fanfare as before. After LB was fired in 2018, they repeated themselves as a covers band.

Probably with Stevie the band could get a bigger commercial success than the previous albums, but only if they get also a very good producer; I deduce it from the weak success of Behind the Mask, though it's just a clue, not an evidence.

With just Lindsey, the critics would have said they had very good albums, probably not great commercial successes.

Anyway, in both cases there wouldn't have been the albums we got. There wouldn't have been a Rumours phenomenom.

Stevie was such a major draw as part of the live band. She was the undoubted star almost overnight and the main reason the line-up gained traction. She also brought Rhiannon to the table. Would her songs have worked on record without Lindsey bringing them to fruition?
However, Lindsey was such a phenomenal musician. His musicianship was a significant step ahead of what Bob Welch could give them.

Its obviously the combination of the two that gave people the interest. However, I'm going to stick my neck out and say if only one of them had joined it would have been a band featuring Lindsey that would have found more success. He gave them leadership and I think his nous would have found a way to some sort of success irrespective of whether Stevie was part of it or not. Stevie on the other hand was much more naive regarding the business and music in general. Without a musical leader they'd have remained lost.

Didn't Iovine say he knew Stevie needed someone (that someone was Lindsey) to turn her work into songs to include on albums?

She also never took the initiative since 1981 to become a guitar player. Even Rod Stewart, a true frontperson, plays guitar onstage for Dirty Old Town.

The problem with your scenario is Lindsey actually produced Fleetwood Mac. He made them stars. He took crappy demos like Gypsy, Dreams, Sara and turned them into hits. It’s not debatable who is the bigger talent. Stevie got to work with great producers because Lindsey made her star.

Her stardom got into the bands way. She made the band toxic. He would of never left in 1987 if it wasn’t for her.

By December 31, 1974, Keith Olsen was under contract to make the new Fleetwood Mac album.

Hypothetically, Mick tells Keith to get Lindsey and Stevie, but Lindsey refuses....

“Lindsey doesn’t want in? Okay, well there are these cats named Warren and Waddy you could consider...”

A couple weeks later: “Hey, you’re Christine, right? I’m Stevie. Wanna get some margaritas?“

I dont think adding just Stevie in the mix in 1974 would have changed the band so much. Lindsey changed it with guitar and new production sound. The band probably would have had some success with Lindsey.
But the couple needed each other and the band also needed them and the couple needed the band.
Adding both was like a chemical equation. Each is not as powerful without the other. So just adding one to Fleetwood Mac would not change very much. However Lindsey is a musician and I think they would have had some success with him. The star power of both completely changed the band almost like a new band.
I heard Stevie say once that "Lindsey and her did not get people falling out of their chairs during the Buck/Nicks era until they joined Fleetwood Mac." She sounded a bit resentful because she explained how hard they worked.
The 5 together was like the perfect recipe. You cant take one away during the foundation years and expect the same success.

This is a tricky one, good question.
Well I think Lindsey added the most artistically, but Stevie made the most money for them.
Without Lindsey they would be just an average middle of the road rock band....long finished by now.
Without Stevie they wouldn’t be multi millionaires..
So it’s Art over Cash..
with both of them added, you get the full package..

Stevie attracted people to the band. She attracted me. But without Lindsey, the songs that pull everyone in wouldn’t have existed in the form that we know them. Without Stevie, we would still have OMH and SYLM and GYOW. But without Lindsey we aren’t going to get the same kind of Stevie hits. Furthermore, without the work that Lindsey did on her songs which made her prominent, I don’t think you’re going to get the other producers interested enough to work with her.

Waddy said he thought that Lindsey was wasting his time working on her flower and the vine stuff. He didn’t see the diamond in the rough. Lindsey saw it, polished up the diamond and then everyone wanted to work with her.

Stevie had a very unique voice and people would be attracted to that. But the initial songs that helped her create her aura needed Lindsey. So, I don’t see Fleetwood Mac achieving as much success without Lindsey and just Stevie.

On second thoughts and after reading some info, Bella Donna was N.8 in Billboard 1982 year end chart (got N.1 in a weekly chart) and sold 10 million copies. Tusk sold 4 million copies worldwide. I read Mirage sold 5 million copies.

So, definitely without Lindsey there would not have been the Rumours phenomenon and I've always said that the 5 members lineup was the definitive Fleetwood Mac to me. But about this debate, I think, without Lindsey who knows how would Christine and Stevie songs have sounded. Wth a good producer (not Greg Ladanyi), and probably a third songwriter (the guitarist) the band could have achieved a decent success.

“Successful” means “make more money”? It’s hard to say what would have happened in 1975, when Stevie’s only mystique was being a cute babe who sang funny. She only later developed that aura of being a great songwriter and rock Romanticist, as we all know. But I guess Stevie needed to be in the band for it to make the most money. She developed the quality that turns on rock audiences — that makes them want to watch her. She developed that appeal a lot quicker than Lindsey did, and she had more of it. The mass audience didn’t know that he crafted the arrangements; for all they knew, Stevie did that, or they didn’t think about who at all. By the time Lindsey got a widespread response of any kind from Mac fans, it was almost entirely a specialized, cerebral response: his inventive guitar work, for example, wasn’t going to blow Alvin Lee away, but it was going to add texture and mood to a song so that you could listen to that song a thousand times and a year later you still wouldn’t be sick of it (hugely important to Fleetwood Mac’s commercial success). That’s just not the kind of thing that sells lots of albums or sells out arenas by itself. It needs to complement something. Naturally, by 1977 (not 1975) Stevie had the crossover appeal.

Where did you read 10 million? The only stat I can find is 4 million in the U.S., per Google. Google won't give me worldwide info.

It’s 4 million. He doesn’t know what he is talking about. Tango is 10 million.

Stevie was NOT seen in the early days of FM the way she is seen now. She was openly mocked by most of the men in radio... you used to be able to find links on youtube to vintage recordings of radio DJs mocking how she sang, the infamous goat comparisons, etc. She was NOT taken seriously at all. And she wasn't the performer the world came to know and love back then either.. Ray Lindsey and some others tell some great stories about those days in a recorded interview that's somewhere on youtube about how long it took her to find her footing and that her singing on that first short Mac tour was NOT good. So, without LB to polish up her songs for radio, and with her stage persona not yet solidified (the Rhiannon outfit not yet created, no top hat, etc) I would doubt that she would have set the world on fire in the way that she did. I think they'd be more successful with just LB and his contributions to the recorded music, which would get them more airplay (which was crucial back then). Stevie, in her still developing state in 1975 would not have gained them much at all.

I wouldn’t argue with much of this, though there are several recordings of her from that first tour where she sounds great. From what I gather, she was inconsistent due to fatigue and relentless touring. She couldn’t persist like the rest of them—that is until “Over My Head” and “Rhiannon” changed things. Then, buoyed by self confidence, she became what she became.

Indeed. And I also think some of what Ray was referring to was also that short tour the band did to get some live experience together just before or while recording the white FM album. I recall Mick saying somewhere that he felt it was important for them to have done shows together and various management/label types tried to discourage them. But he said in the end he was glad they did because it helped them solidify playing together even more and when the album was finally finished and they went on that first proper tour they had the experience of those previous shows to draw on.

This was the period where Stevie used to constantly compare touring to "being in the Army" with inane comments like "You have to be where you're supposed to be and you have to be on time" (welcome to the real world). It really showed what a spoiled princess she was up til then. How long was any BN tour??

We've heard Chris talk about lugging her own bags and even crew have talked about her setting up bits of her own gear onstage.... I would bet my mortgage Stevie NEVER so much as plugged in a microphone let alone ever helped carry anything heavy. There are pics of her carrying her big gypsy handbags with her books and things but that's it.

Yeah, Chris was a real road warrior, despite writing songs like “Homeward Bound” as early as 72! I love that Polaroid Richard Daschut shared with The ledge where she’s repairing her Höner with pliers or a wrench. She was no pampered darling. Bob Welch once remarked, Christine lived on Dunkin‘ Donuts in the early 70s. I could see her drinking wine and gorging on junk food, taking it all in stride as a hard but good living...To me, that’s a far more heroic story than Stevie’s triumphant rise to superstardom.

I have met many celebrities, movie stars, and not one off them could equal the star power of Stevie Nicks.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Who did you meet? Pee Wee Herman?

Define star power, please.

And also, who did you meet that are less interesting than Stevie Nicks? Or with less star power?

That ineffable “something” and “It” factor and charisma. She seemed incandescent.

Among the celebrities I’ve met and talked with:

Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie, Steven Spielberg, George Clooney, Bradley Cooper, Colin Firth, Michael B Jordan, Peter Bogdanovich, Lynn Redgrave (yes, I imagine Vanessa would have given Stevie a run for her money), Warren Beatty and Annette Bening (waited my whole life to meet them!!), Kerry Washington, Meryl Streep, James Toback, Lesley Manville, Whit Stillman, Rachel Weisz (so... I have to say about her we talked for a really long time — she is 2x more beautiful in person and the nicest celebrity I ever met who wasn’t already a friend of a friend), Jessica Chastain, Liev Schreiber, Green Gartside (so cool!!!!), Iris DeMent, David Gedge (when he was sexy sexy!), stupid Michelle Williams, Christine Lahti, and I’m forgetting a bunch more and it’s late.

And a few gay porn stars ��

Holy cow! You've got a great life

Did you meet Ryan Rose?!

Sheryl has said that Stevie totally gives off that aura of being a star.

I've not met her in person (just Mick and Lindsey) but I do wonder how much of that increased with age and longevity in the biz...?

is that a good or a bad thing? how does that manifest?

Thing is, Christine’s songs didn’t sound radically different from her 1971-74 songs, harmonies and all, and she went on to have the majority of Top 40 singles.

I think just having a complete mainstream pop package would have helped them become more successful. As much as I love the Bob Welch era, there was a ceiling to their potential success. He had two or three bubblegum songs, but the rest were pretty heavy subject matter for the Hit Parade. Plus, he was kind of weird looking and had a weakish voice. They made great records, but they were never going to be blockbuster hits. Think about it, Bob Welch’s Carlos Castaneda inspired mystic jazz rock and classic Christine McVie songs produced by Deep Purple’s producer. If that doesn’t scream identity crisis, I don’t know what does. It wasn’t until they moved to LA and started playing up having a woman in the band (Jefferson Starship tour) that they had a Top 40 album.

I don’t know how well Fleetwood Mac would have done without the drama. Fleetwood Mac was selling only moderately better than its predecessors until it came out that the McVies split and that Stevie and Lindsey had mostly split. Then it became a huge hit. Obviously, Rumours. Fast forward to TITN, and its sales started skyrocketing after Lindsey quit.

I really think that the Tango sales began to pick up mostly due to the sequence of the singles released Big Love was kind of another oddity ..I was surprised when it hit top five here and it did not get much airplay after it's chart run. Seven Wonders was a bigger hit at rock radio than the pop charts . It was Christine's two international smashes , accessible pop hits that kept the album buoyant in the charts for so long.If star members jumping ship made albums sell then Time would have been a multi-platinum smash.

“Little Lies” was released 25 days after Lindsey’s departure and that was arguably the biggest story in the rock world at the time. Go figure, it was the biggest single off the album. Just a coincidence, right?

And, it’s not that a star members jumped ship, per se. It was another moment of high drama from the band that gave us Rumours. It was an abrupt change, and the first for Fleetwood Mac in 12 years. There was no public drama with Time.

Little Lies is also the catchiest song off of the album with what one critic called one of the biggest hooks of the eighties..Do you really think that Welcome to the Room Sara would have soared into the pop top 5 on both sides of the Atlantic:lol:

I do! FRONTLINE babeeeeyyy

And the second one.........

Well it's a worthless thing...

Wrong question. I don’t know if “Little Lies” would have been a Top 5 hit without the drama immediately preceding its release. Top 10, maybe and definitely Top 20, but tied for third biggest of their career??

I don’t think WTTR...S could have ever been a hit. However, I think “Isn’t It Midnight” might have been a massive hit had it been released at that moment.

ooh, Christine Lahti!

Yeah, but he had those great berets. :p

I like Mystery to Me, but I can't imagine another three or four albums like it. They would have to be Christine-heavy, and even then, you're looking at a lot of lukewarm radio-friendly fare between the two of them.

I mean zero offense to Chris either. I love her, but even she has admitted to being a formulaic songwriter, and did not really expand her repertoire beyond the basic 1-2-3 love/lost love song. Bob, like Danny Kirwan, was not the most lighthearted guy, at least not lyrically. Bare Trees and MtM are good albums but are not ones that I would listen to in their entirety. Not without feeling a little broody afterward.

She didn’t, but that’s why the Rumours lineup worked. Lindsey and Stevie were also mainstream pop writers, but in completely different ways from Christine and each other, which made for a compelling package that none were ever able to duplicate outside of the band. The Fleetwood Mac album was an unintentional masterpiece that even Mick, at the time, didn’t think worked as a cohesive project, but it’s maybe the most cohesive album they made.

you'd have to ask Sheryl. She did mention something about it being a certain "energy" a person gives off. I think that means walking into a room like you own it, demanding that your hotel suite be repainted pink with a white grand piano added in.... until finally you just demand the presidential suite. Oh and bringing your entourage with you when invited to a private listening of a younger artist's new album, then forcing him to stay up all night while you and said entourage listen to said album over and over again, offering unrequested suggestions about how each song could be better, failing to notice young singer doesn't stay up until 7 am like you do because, well, you're a legend used to the world conforming to your schedule.:shrug:

The White album is a thing of beauty. (Even with Sugar Daddy being on there!) Everyone knows the singles, but if you listen to the whole thing from start to finish, it's an undeniably strong album. It has a completely different vibe from Rumours. Warm Ways is one of its weak spots, but it's so short and mellow that it doesn't drag everything around it down, and it has the benefit of being sandwiched between Monday Morning and Blue Letter.

Sugar Daddy is the BEST song on the album! :mad::mad::mad:

Sugar Daddy definitely is a highlight of the album. It has the bluesy pre-Buck/Nicks sound yet also has the ace production of Lindsey Buckingham along with his playing. And also a tiny fantastic harmony at the very end. Warm Ways is also a dreamy treasure.

Now if we could ever get you to see the same mastery of Oh Daddy ;)

I'll never understand the hate that Sugar Daddy gets... it's the Think About Me of the White album!

Now don't get me started:lol: , but Warm Ways is right there with Oh Daddy. Snoozeville! Too sleepy for me. I need me some damned BEAT. The exact same reason I hate Storms and Beautiful Child. Zzzzzzz....