This was likely a Business Decision
 

According to Elle's post (On the Mick's Social Media thread) of the Facebook conversation with Rick Turner, this sounds like it was a business decision, plain and simple.

I'm no business expert, but clearly it would not make good business sense for them to allow Lindsey to solo tour in between the Mac shows. If Stevie or Christine asked to do that, they would be shot down too. Let's say Don Henley asked to do the same thing during an Eagles tour - do you think the rest of the band members would allow that? Uh, NO. How about the Police? - If Sting asked the other members if he could do solo shows in between Police tour dates, I also doubt they would allow that. So if Lindsey indeed came to them and asked them about doing the in between solo shows and they wouldn't allow it, Lindsey must have insisted, which caused Mick/the rest of them to dismiss him.

Yes, there might be more to it than this, but this is probably the biggest reason for Lindsey's ousting.

I'm no tour manager, but as far as Lindsey's solo career goes, doesn't he have a solo album coming out this month? If so, I'm wondering why he couldn't tour it BEFORE Fleetwood Mac starts (allegedly) in the Fall? If he did that, he probably would have been able to stay with Fleetwood Mac. :shrug:


Jamie

For convenience purposes, here is the Rick Turner Facebook conversation:


the whole convo -

Rick Turner At one point, Lindsey had proposed that both FM and he with his band tour at the same time with the LB band filling in dates between the FM shows. The report was that Stevie wanted at least a day between gigs; Lindsey wanted to play as much as possible. That's what I heard from a most reliable source at the NAMM show in January.

Elle Llewi heard the same. thanks so much for filling this in Rick!

Elle Llew Rick Turner is it ok if i quote this on The Ledge? it's a google-able place and people sometimes check there.

Rick Turner Elle Llew Sure. I think it just points out one point of contention. Maybe it looked to some as though LB was going to do really well touring hard; perhaps not doubling his money on the tour, but certainly getting in nearly twice the audience face tim...See More

Elle Llew Rick Turner 😪 this makes me sad even more. what a f**king shame!

Elle Llew (excuse my language)

Rick Turner The whole thing is a mess, and I'm sorry for them all. I've had some memorable moments with that crew!

Haley Clark So then tensions were already high at Musicares. Because NAMM and Musicares were the same weekend. Which is probably what led to Stevie and Lindsey having their fight. And the rest is history.

Felix Le Chat Rick this is the most disgusting thing to hear: all could have been avoided.
Give Stevie 2, 3 or even 4 days between shows. I wouldn’t mind to visit consecutive LB gigs 😜
...See More

Pattie D I know for a fact that LB wanted to do a solo tour in between the FM tour. He did say that it was complicated and I guess he wasn't kidding.
I hope he gets to do the solo tour after all. I will not support Fleetwood Mac anymore.

Rick Turner Felix Le Chat Lindsey would have gotten more press than Stevie if they'd done a double tour like that.

Pattie D I really couldn't see Fleetwood Mac going along with his plans. What if people couldn't afford to see FM and went to see LB instead as it was more economical? Big problem.

Rick Turner Pattie D Would have to have been planned for different cities.

Pattie D I could see where that would get costly. Not to mention would the crew get any rest?

Elle Llew but that makes complete sense:

FM plays arena in downtown DC. LB solo plays the Fillmore in Silver Spring, MD.

FM plays MSG . LB solo plays Red Bank, NJ.

easy peasy!

Felix Le Chat Rick Turner : a logistical nightmare (aside from costs) 😝 to have it in different cities.
Most cities do have multiple venues. Although in this group the LB fan ship reels highly I do believe Lindsey would have been ok to play smaller venues than FM.

And I’m sure he got enough guitars 🎸 for 2 sets (if not you could probably help on that &#128540


Rick Turner Pattie D Well, it would just be two interlaced tours with some of the folks working practically every night. But that's what they do in musical theater...Broadway and off-Broadway actors do eight shows a week...six nights and two matinees. That's what professionals are capable of. At one point the Beach Boys were often enough doing two gigs on the same day, and on at least one day, they did three...in three different cities. Lot's of alimony to pay for those guys!

Pattie D Don't forget Providence after FM plays Boston, Elle. LOL

Elle LlewYPattie D i'm self serving

Rick Turner It would have been doable. It just needed everyone's buy-in.

Pattie D Well sadly it's never going to happen now.

Elle Llew Felix Le Chat nope, wouldn't be. see above. FM plays cities, LB solo suburbs. works!



here's the link to these posts: https://www.facebook.com/groups/8972...5412200239934/

Love that part of the convo! There was nothing amicable here.

and yet, Stevie had no problem whatsoever with the Pretenders doing it.

it's interesting view to ponder, for sure, but doesn't make sense when you take into account Stevie's last year's tour with the Pretenders.

But the Pretenders weren't part of her own solo band, just the opening act, nor did they use her staff/crew. If Waddy or Al were to ask her if they could join another tour during 24K Gold I think she'd surely deny.

the pretenders were a big part of the draw for her tour. and same people were playing in the pretenders opening for her and at their solo gigs.

Of course, the point is that they are a separate band with a separate entourage.

I'd guess that was probably the likely plan originally. Lindsey's album release was delayed/cancelled/held back. Perhaps it just wasn't ready for release. Lindsey then said 'Look guys, I've got an album coming out but promo is going to need to overlap with Fleetwood Mac dates'.
Either that or FM tour was brought forward. I recall them discussing the start of the tour in the Autumn now its supposedly going to kick off in the summer.

Anyway, when we are talking about Lindsey Buckingham entourage, what are we talking? I mean, One Man Show - Elle, what would that have involved in terms of personnel?

Have this lot never heard of forward planning ?
Or planning of any kind

My daughter gets married May 2019.....invites ready, dress measured and ordered, food sorted etc etc

Lol, "planning"...not with this band.

I remember some years ago there was a Fleetwood Mac fan club. Part of the fan club package was a wall calendar. Those calendars didn't get mailed out to the fans until part of that calendar year was already over. It was the biggest inside joke between fans at the time. :laugh:

Jamie

The idea that Lindsey's boutique concerts in support of a solo "best of" collection would cut into even an iota of Mac tour revenue is ludicrous. This wouldn't work for Stevie because I do think she would impact Mac revenues touring simultaneously.

It actually seems like an elegant solution to usual Mac tension of solo and group careers. The motivations behind using this as the excuse to excommunicate Lindsey are frightening to contemplate.

I agree, there's a world of difference between an opening act playing their own gig on a night off and someone from the same band playing a solo gig on a night off. The Pretenders only did it a few times, anyway, but even if they had done it 100 times, it's not the same thing. I would have this opinion whether it was Lindsey asking for it or it was Stevie asking for it. It would be ridiculous for Stevie to ask to perform solo shows on the nights FM had off.

I feel badly for Lindsey because this reeks of bad timing that's probably out of his control. He probably agreed to this tour last year, I mean he's mentioned before FM was going on your in 2018, but his record company probably dictates when they'll release the record, so that's out of his control, but of course he would want to perform solo gigs when the record is released. Likewise, I can see why the rest of the band doesn't like the idea that one of their frontline band members would be dividing his time between two tours. Logistically it's crazy, plus it's competition for their own tour.

I can see where an overlap in material might be a point of contention or negotiation-- e.g., "please don't do GYOW or whatever which is a big part of the FM repertoire in your solo shows"....but otherwise... I mean, no offense to LB, but the audiences that go to his solo shows (and I'm one of them) aren't going to wipe out huge profits from FM:sorry:

I mean really, what songs are we talking about that could overlap with both gigs? GYOW? SHN? Tusk? I can see them not wanting him to do those in both places, and having that debate.

Diehard fans would try and see both shows (same if it were Stevie doing smaller venues and stripped down versions of her songs whilst on a Mac tour). And yes, honestly, if it were Stevie her doing solo shows might well impact ticket sales for FM as she's a main draw for many of the more casual fans as well.

Still, while I get the legitimate arguments that can be made business-wise on both sides, I'm trying to envision how it got to the breaking point. If people were saying it was Lindsey who pitched a fit and said, "That's it, I'm out" it would make a lot more sense to me. But them saying, 'look, you're fired'.... Again, if it was a biz negotiation and they gave him an ultimatum of "either you do just the Mac tour or your solo tour, but not both" and forced HIM to make the choice, again I would understand.

But the stories coming out are that THEY kicked him out. Further, we hear that Stevie said she couldn't work with him anymore or wouldn't, and that possibly Mick polled promoters to see who they thought would sell more seats, Stevie or Lindsey, and then decided accordingly who could stay in and who had to leave the band.

The more I think about it, the only way it makes sense is if the band said to him, we won't support the solo gigs, and you need to commit to just FM or just solo but not both, and he chose solo. It's harder to get to the convo of "you're fired" based on this business stuff..:shrug:

...furthermore we are led to believe he asked to be allowed back. That would suggest after he was fired he went back to them and said 'Fine, I wont do the solo tour, I'll just do Fleetwood Mac shows'.
Surely if that's the case then they should have said 'Cool, lets go'.
Instead they refused.

Great point!!

There is a comparison, I agree. Here's the difference. The Pretenders are a totally different band. Lindsey is an integral member of Fleetwood Mac (or was, until this insanity began). If Chrissy Hind goes off and exhausts herself doing a solo gig, no problem- it reflects only on her. If Lindsey goes off with his solo plans and then is unable to do the PR crap that goes along with either gig, there will be some friction. Fleetwood Mac demands all. Does it matter? Well, if The Big Machine is financing the travel, hoteling, etc, I suspect The Big Machine has great expectations of it's members. For Lindsey doing this mingled tour is win-win. He gets critical PR exposure. His traveling and lodging is largely helped out by The Big Machine. Maybe Lindsey's solo outing with the intermingling could have been somewhat beneficial for Fleetwood Mac, but it chiefly benefitted Lindsey. (So what? Does it matter that Lindsey got the win win?) I do agree with the premise of the opening thread, that it is likely (and maybe largely) a business decision:

But I am suspecting the wish of The Big Machine was for Lindsey to have done his solo work in completion before or after Fleetwood Mac's outing. AGAIN, this is ALL a bunch of IFs. If Stevie was willing to accommodate Chrissy (and Chrissy, like Lindsey tours on a TINY scale compared to Fleetwood Mac), that was her choice. The PR for Stevie's small scale outing coupled with The Pretenders PR was tiny. Fleetwood Mac is the big machine. The FM Machine is not willing to compromise, and neither was Lindsey.

In the end, I think they are all damaged by this whole thing.

This just seems biased, and I'll say why:

Using that argument, that Stevie didn't mind the Pretenders performing solo gigs during the 24 Karat Gold tour, it stands to reason Stevie wouldn't have minded Lindsey doing it during the upcoming tour, too. But the simple fact is, it's not an accurate comparison. Now, if Waddy or her backup singers or someone else in her band had performed with the Pretenders on their solo gigs, she probably would have had an issue with that, because she's paying her band for their time, including hotels, etc.

Furthermore, some people seem to forget that there are two other members of FM that might have had concerns about the two tours. But Lindsey fans are focused on Stevie and Mick, Stevie and Mick, Stevie and Mick. They think that Christine is bound by some sort of iron-clad contract that forces her to go along with FM. Christine can't possibly be in agreement with this decision to let Lindsey go. Perhaps they think Christine is at home crying in her pillow, because she's so devastated that Stevie and Mick have betrayed Lindsey this way, and there's. nothing. she. can. do. about. it. Well, maybe that makes them feel better.

Clearly, John and Christine have just as much a say as anyone else in the band. They could have demanded Lindsey be allowed any provisions he needed to be able to stay in FM, or they could have said they would walk. Or tour with Lindsey instead. Or they could have claimed they were not up to touring. They could have passed on letting Mike Campbell or Neil Finn join. They are not innocent bystanders here. Yet somehow, people direct their anger on Mick and Stevie only. Or they might respond "well I'm angry at them too!" but then go right back to Mick and Stevie.

I can't speak for anyone else but I for one am pi$$ed off with all 4 of them.
I think you (bwboy) made a comment in another forum about people showing allegiances to their favourite members... well I can honestly say I've lost respect for Christine. I'm big enough and mature enough to appreciate Lindsey has been wronged and I'm not going to speak up for Christine just for the sake of it. I'm too much of a grown up for those sort of games.

It probably was me, and while that may not apply to everyone, just look back at a number of these threads and you'll see "Stevie and Mick, Stevie and Mick" and no mention for Christine or John, except for the occasional "Christine is probably contracted to do this tour." It's important to remember there are, or were, 5 people in this band and a decision like this should reflect on all of them.

C'mon man
You don't live in a bubble. Its Mick's band. No one can get fired if Mick does not agree. Who in the band does not get along with Lindsey and refused to record a new album because he was there? Stevie. You know this but pretend somehow Christine and John are equal parts. They don't have a 40 year grievance with Lindsey like Stevie does. You are pretending or kidding yourself. What I blame Christine for is not standing up to the decision. Christine could have saved him. But that is NOT the same of those who have an agenda against Lindsey (whether you agree or disagree with that agenda). Its a fantasy to think the 4 members said YOU ARE FIRED LINDSEY. We don't want you to promote your solo album and we don't like the way you carry on with Stevie. Simply unbelievable.
Like the course of history, there are horrible leaders who do horrible things. Then there are the cowards who don't stand up and don't protest the leader doing the horrible things.

Absolutely. But surely its clear to see Mick and Stevie are the power of the band. Mick is/has been the de facto leader but Stevie has taken that mantle now. Chris and John are complicit but nothing more than enablers so its only right M&S are receiving the most vitriol.

Yup. And as far as Christine just going along with things...my memory can be foggy, but back when the rest of the band had their shorts in a knot over Stevie's Rolling Stone cover story Christine PARTICIPATED by being interviewed for the article. Christine does what she wants.

Agree with your prior reasoning on the difference between Lindsey and The Pretenders booking different shows. And not for nothing (and again I may be foggy on the specifics, so I beg forgiveness if I'm wrong), but didn't Stevie hold off on touring in support of 24 Karat Gold because of an FM tour? The album was released in 2014, but she didn't begin the 24 Karat Gold Tour until 2016 due to On With the Show. I'm not one in the "Stevie's fault! Stevie's fault!" camp with the actual verified evidence available... BUT I can also see her being petty enough to figure she had to wait to do her own tour, Lindsey can wait to do his. Pettiest band of all time, these Macs. :rolleyes:

I don't think this was a decision Stevie was waiting 40 years for. She was upset when Lindsey left in 1987. She happily reunited with him back in 1996. She recorded Say You Will and an EP with him. She toured with him without Christine 3 times. She invited him to perform at a benefit for the Heart Foundation and he accepted. He invited her to appear with him on his Sound Stage concert and she accepted. I don't believe she has an agenda against him. Nor do I believe Lindsey has an agenda against her. That doesn't mean the band didn't make a stupid, potentially legacy-damaging decision, but no, I don't believe this is a culmination of 40 years of grievances on anyone's part.

What I don’t understand..
If this is about Lindsey wanting to promote his solo album with a solo tour, why couldn’t he just postpone?

Stevie had 24 karat gold come out but toured with Fmac (on with the show)
She had to postpone promoting 24 karat gold, till On with the show tour ended.

She toured with Fmac as Christine had returned, and 24 karat gold promo tour had to wait.

Yes, 24 Karat Gold was released right before she went on tour with FM. And she didn't sing one song from that album on that tour. Not that she should get a medal for that, but yes, she kept her commitment to the band and I don't recall her complaining about not being able to tour for 24 Karat Gold until 2 years later. But I agree with you, I could also see Stevie using that same standard with Lindsey. Right or wrong, at least no one can say she was asking for special treatment back then, and then refusing to give him the same treatment now.

Oh, but someone will. We fans are as petty as the band. ;)

Quite honestly, with my advancing age I'm just glad that I remembered the details of the 24KG and OWTS dates!

I 100% agree that this was a business/scheduling conflict that just went really downhill due to clashing egos and decades of drama and pettiness.
However anyone who thinks that Mick and Stevie don't call 90% of the shots here are deluded. Stevie is the big cash cow for the band. Almost all casual fans associate FM primarily with Stevie Nicks. Mick will ALWAYS bend over backwards to appease her and keep her touring with them because she brings in the big bucks. And as for Mick, the band is literally his name. Even if Stevie has the monetary power, it's HIS band.

It's not hard for me to believe that they led the vote against Lindsey and John voted with Mick because of their age old union. Chris probably IS in the middle on this. Besides, Elle's post seems to confirm almost exactly what happened.

For many, Stevie is so powerful she's the reason FM fills arenas, and she also can do it on her solo tours. But when it comes to calling the shots, she's not more important or powerful than the rest of her band members. :laugh::laugh:

How voting went is clear for everyone who wants to see it. I'm dubious about Christine.

Actually I think you’re onto something. I could definitely see this being the situation.
Lindsey signs on for an FM tour in the fall after releasing the planned solo record and promoting it on tour in Spring. Label pushes back the solo record which causes both of his planned tours to take place at the same time. He asks FM to either delay their tour or allow him to go out for solo shows concurrently. They say no. Some seriously fighting goes on. Maybe he says that’s the only way he can do it. Either he threatens to not do the tour unless they work with him here or they tell him he’s booted for being difficult in the first place. They then have their plans all screwed up and a contractually obligated tour fast approaching and are scrambling to figure out a solution or replacement. He realizes they’re going on tour with or without him, comes back and says “I give in, i’ll just do the FM tour only” but Stevie’s still pissed off and sick of it all so she says “nope, not letting him back”. And the rest of the band follows suit because they see her as a 5 foot tall sack of money.

Love this line. Very true. He He He



https://www.wpclipart.com/money/mone...ck_of_cash.png

...Intense silence as she walked in the room

I've never seen that picture of Stevie before.
Where'd you find it?

I took it from Mick Fleetwood's Twitter. It might have been taken at the Classic West show, I'm not sure.

I actually stole it lol. My friend works for a singer that was on a tv show & was a huge pain in the a** throughout the whole run. He’s always telling me stories about the insane sh*t her coworkers had to do to pacify her & when I asked why they didn’t just throw her off, he said “ratings. she’s a 5 foot tall sack of money so they do whatever she wants”. I’ve used it to describe Stevie’s role in FM ever since. :laugh:

Cool.

I hardly recognized her without her shawls.

As ridiculous as this whole thing is, and as devastated as I am, I realized today that maybe this is actually a fitting way for the band to come to an end. For over 40 years, FM has been fueled by the conflict of Lindsey striving to be an artist vs. the others striving to be wise business people. Maybe this ending is more poignant than a final tour where everyone gets along and celebrates their career.

As I said elsewhere, this doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand why they didn't just tell him that they wouldn't accommodate him, and that if he didn't like it, he could leave.

Why fire him just for asking?

Losing Lindsey will hurt their sales. It's a BAD business decision to fire him if he's willing to stay despite not getting his way.

There has to be more to it.

[QUOTE=sodascouts;1223096]As I said elsewhere, this doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand why they didn't just tell him that they wouldn't accommodate him, and that if he didn't like it, he could leave.

Why fire him just for asking?

Losing Lindsey will hurt their sales. It's a BAD business decision to fire him if he's willing to stay despite not getting his way.

There has to be more to it.[/QUOTE

Agreed there has to be more. It's so insulting, and 4 days in, it doesn't hurt any less. I actually cannot listen to their music. Am so disgusted with them all. All 5 that is--they couldn't get it together.

[QUOTE=Storms123;1223107]Why are you disgusted by Lindsey? What did he do? When they still didn’t want to give him his solo tours dates between FM tour dates, he finally postponed his solo tour and they fired him anyway.

Old Money Bag indeed...
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...pspnejxwpv.jpg

Omg.... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: