The Problem with "Time"
 

So, I'm on my way home from work at 4 am this morning and "Blow By Blow" starts playing on my iPod. I'm listening to this song and I'm wondering what it is that it's missing, musically that is. Then suddenly, it hits me!!! John's bass. It's barely noticeable.

My question is then, "Is this what's wrong with the Time CD?" Not a good enough mix? Not enough John? Not a good blend of the classic rhythm section that we all know and love?

Obviously there are more problems with this CD than just the mix. Some of the material isn't that great either, but my main question is in regard to the mix and why John doesn't seem to be mixed in as well as on other Mac CD's.

Comments, complaints? Slings and arrows? Praise? I'm interested to hear others opinions.

Time.........well, I think it would have been better if it had been shorter, with more Christine and No Dave Mason. The addition of him to Fleetwood Mac was just odd to me, not a good fit at all. I also noticed that John's bassline was not as prevelent on a lot of songs. By far, the best thing out of that album is "Sooner Or Later". It is a song I loved from the first time I heard it.

My issue with Time is that it doesn't feel like everyone is involved in everyone's songs. Dave isn't on Christine's songs and vice versa and it doesn't seem like they're on Bekka and Billy's songs and vice versa. I also feel like Dave's contributions were weak but I still love Time.

Matt

There wasn't any problem with Time. The problem was with the narrow minded Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham fans who didn't give the new lineup the chance it deserved. Oh, that and the absence of Rick Vito.

I hate standing up for Dave M as I really don't like his music that much (and I have all his solo albums - :lol:), but he doesn't do a bad job on the album, although I know he can really rock out on guitar when he wants to, which he didn't here. I think he fitted quite well into Fleetwood Mac despite Christine's reluctance.

However as Rick Vito is my second fave FM member after Stevie (third fave being Dave Walker - :lol: @ sjpdg) I wish he had stuck around for the album, I would have loved the Bekka/Billy/Rick combination.

All in all though, there isn't anything wrong with the album, sure it isn't Rumours, but then again, neither was pretty much the rest of FM's back catalogue.

If there is one criticism to be had, it is that none of the artists seem to be at their best. Billy, Dave and Bekka have all produced fantastic work since Time. If they had brought that energy to the album it would have been brilliant.


EDIT: Matt is right in the above post too, there isn't enough involvement in each other's tracks, obviously Christine/Dave being the worst case of this.

Time isn´t so bad album I think. I´m not a huge fan of that country, which Bekka and Billy played, but Christine´s songs are awesome there (espacially Nights In Estoril - just amazing song).

It would be awesome if BTM line up continued, released some combination of King Of Hearts, Street Angel and Time and toured like they toured in 94-95 (many concerts in Europe :)) ... that would be really great!

Then why do you have ALL of his albums??

Some people have no sense of humor!!!!:laugh::laugh:

I agree with you and most of the other posts on this thread. My biggest issue with the album is that it just doesn't feel like a collaborative effort. It feels like they all put their parts together separately, got it mixed and packaged up for sale. Some of the material just sounds weak. I agree too that with Rick included (instead of Dave) then the material might have been better and all together a different album.

Any opinions on "These Strange Times" from Mick?

Personally, I find it interesting to listen to. Sort of a personal retrospective of his career with FM up to that time. Also seems to explore faith as well. Loss of faith, faith regained.

Certainly not a great song that should go down in history or anything. I'm not that big a fan of it! I just think it's an interesting piece of material and am curious to see what others think of it.

Any other thoughts?

What is it with you and people named "Dave" that have been in this band??!! LOL!!:]:]

:lol::lol:

Because I have ALL the FM solo albums...its just something I do... :)

Its a track I skip every time...although I have to admit compared to the Lizard People single its fantastic. What annoys me is that it isn't a song and it isn't poetry, it falls somewhere between. Either read it like a poem or sing it like a song, don't try to do both.

I totally agree with everything you've said. It sounds more like a bunch of solo songs than a collaborative effort imo.

Oh, them's fightin' words, dearie! :lol:

I think it's unfair to compare the Time band with the Rumours band; yes, it kinda looked like Fleetwood Mac from a distance... but upon closer inspection it was merely a drooling zombie version of what they used to be. Almost everything that made Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac was absent- the quirkiness, the divine harmonies, the haunting mysticism, the romantic/musical tension, and most definitely the passion. Other than the divine contributions from Mrs. Perfect McVie Quintela, this was pretty much generic, gutless, soulless middle-of-the-road adult contemporary pop that would not have been out of place on a made-for-Lifetime-Television movie soundtrack. I tried to give it a chance. Really. But on a perfectly objective level, there is no way I would have ever subjected myself to this tediously uninteresting music if they didn't slap the ol' "Fleetwood Mac" label onto it.

That being said... "Nights in Estoril" gets mad respect from me- I blow kisses in its general direction. :xoxo:

You're right. There were more people who bought and listened to this album because of the Rumours line up than there were people who overlooked it because of them.

I know that people love Nights in Estoril , consider it one of her all time best, and I'm kind of partial to Hollywood myself. Christine nonpareil.

Michele

Maybe...25 million (or so) copies of Rumours sold, 35,000 (or so) copies of Time sold. I think that would mean most of the Rumours era fans wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole...

Sure Time wasn't the greatest album that FM ever released, but the same could be said about Then Play On, Penguin (one of my favourites), Mirage, etc.

In my opinion the failure of Time wasn't directly linked to the quality of the album or the lack of talent in the band at that time. The SN & LB fans were never going to accept it, I seem to remember the general level of dislike directed towards Bekka for singing Stevie songs. For those people who were fans back then, correct me if I'm wrong but the newsgroup and forums of the day were full of complaints about Bekka's voice (and let's be honest the girl can sing).

Additionally the record company didn't want to promote the album without its two main attractions.

Anyway, thats my two cents worth (and that isn't worth a lot post-GFC)

That is probably what the Peter Green and Bob Welch fans said in 1975 ;)

Just because Rumours sold 25 million doesn't mean it was the best MUSIC that Fleetwood Mac ever produced. If so, then wtf happened with Tusk, Mirage etc...same 5 people, same 3 writers...Rumours was a fluke, a God damned fluke...and a scourge put upon us Fleetwood Mac fans from prior to its release. I f***ing HATE Rumours with the same passion that apparently many FMac fans **** upon Time. I'd love to have some sort of FlashForward machine, put everyone to sleep for 2:17 and erase Rumours and the whole Rumours phenomenon from everyone's memory & reality...THEN we'll see what Fleetwood Mac albums people gravitate to.


A-friggin'-MEN!!!!

Well, I would consider myself one of those people who actually despised Rumours when it first came out (too blatantly "pop" for my eight-year-old ears). I didn't enter the fold until after Bella Donna, so I backed into Rumours retroactively after a long time of not caring for it at all. And admittedly, save for "The Chain" and Christine's songs, I still don't much care for it today, even though I can appreciate it as an incredibly solid piece of work overall. So not being a huge fan of Rumours, I still think Time blows chunky soup by any measure (again, with the exception of Christine's songs). There are non-BN albums that I adore- Future Games, Mystery to Me, Bare Trees, Then Play On, so I don't think it's fair to say that BN fans will only like BN-in-FM albums.

Regarding the issue of promotion, I do agree that Time was not promoted at all. Even I, as a diehard fan for the longest time, didn't know it even existed until six months after it was released, when I found it in the cut-out bin at a record show. I honestly thought it was a bootleg at first! Way to go, WB! But I honestly don't blame them- why throw good money after bad trying to promote this... thing?

I love "These Strange Times." It just SOUNDS so gooood. And the choir vocals in the background. Beautiful. I think it's so moving; Mick's appraisal of his life also provides an emotional history shared in many ways by us Fleetwood Mac fans: new or old. And it comes directly from the SOUND of Fleetwood Mac, the man who gave the band its name, and the man who held it together. And, as the song reveals, he did it out of LOVE.

ETA: Fortunately, Rumours (my all-time favorite album) also provided for me an entrance into this history -- as it did for many others. I may disagree with chiliD regarding that album's value as art and as a phenomenon, but I appreciate his passionate defenses of Time and his perspective on Fleetwood Mac as a fan from the beginning.

I don't know where you're getting that 35,000 figure from. If I was just going to guess, I'd say about 90% of all Time albums were sold to people looking for the Rumours sound. Who else do you think was buying that album? A lot of Rumours fans bypassed it, but the people who purchased it were probably Rumours fans. So, it wouldn't have done as well as it did without them. I certainly wouldn't have listened to Nothing Without You as often as I did, if I didn't think Lindsey was on it.

I bought Time deliberately knowing the players, but I also got a couple of copies from Columbia House for a penny or something. It was featured in their record club and I'm pretty sure the people who ordered it from there didn't realize Time was a different line up than the Rumours famous.

I think BTM was a much better album than Time and there's nothing about the BTM line up that I liked better than the Time line up. Stevie's presence on BTM was not a factor for me.

Regarding Bekka's voice, yes she can sing, but her singing style may not be what people like. I continue to love Stevie's GDW in concert. I didn't mind Bekka's, but if Bekka had done Dreams, I probably would have been thrilled, just because Stevie's had gotten so boring.

My problem with the tour was the nostalgia circuit thing. I found it degrading. I'd never go to a show like that of my own free will. I had missed them at the House of Blues, so I went to Universal the following year and I'm not sure who the other audience members were there to see (REO speedwagon?), but they really weren't into FM as far as I could see and that excitement and connection you get when the band is fueled by the audience was absent.

Who said it did? But selling that many Rumours albums also means that it sold a lot of albums in addition to Rumours. It sold all those Dance albums and the SYW albums, etc.

I understand what you mean about how Rumours ruined the band and acknowledge that you're right that they have been touring on it ever since. However, it's a good album. Weren't you telling people that 32 years ago?

I don't think it was a fluke. I'm not really into it, simply because it was so popular. Even today, it's on the radio so much. So, I ignore it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all and I certainly see why it sold as many records as it did.

Michele

I don't like it as an album track, but I like the references in it. I like the little puzzle.

Michele

I think it's a perfect album closer -- and it holds together the disparate elements of the album. It's what makes Time, ultimately, cohesive.

I've been thinking about this thread a lot. I really don't think that, just because someone did not love Time as a body of work,that they are against a Fleetwood Mac w/o Lindsey and Stevie. I like a lot of members like Danny Kirwan and Bob Welch who were there before Lindsey&Stevie. I like Billy Burnette a lot too. I bought Time because I felt I should give it a chance and also to support my favorite band. It has it's good moments. I liked Behind the Mask a lot better, not because of Stevie, but mostly because of Christine and Billy's songs together. I felt that in Time, Bekka and Billy were already singing as if they were a seperate duo. that worked later,but not when you're trying to make a group effort. I also noticed in this thread people saying they wish Rumours had never existed. I have at times felt that way. It's a great album, but not so amazing that it should be held as the high standard of what Fleetwood Mac can accomplish.I agree that Rumours was necesssary in the fact that it made Fleetwood Mac a household name, but I also feel that Rumours has held Fleetwood Mac back in terms of what they can do that will be seen as "commercially successful."

It's a beautiful experience, that track. It makes me sad when I listen to it, but I listen to it on repeat when I'm in that band nostalgia mood. The track makes me love Mick as a person. I empathize with him, & keenly feel his wistfulness & sadness & also his hope & his fond memories.

Yes, indeed. And musically of course it employs the four voicings of the Bach Fugue 17 in Ab from the WTC. Mick isn't afraid to bring old art & new art together in moving panoply.

Sure, Time isn't the "cohesive" album it could've been. The alternate running order I painstakingly culled helps that a bit (see below)...but, there's also the history of how Time came about that added to the disjointedness that it became.

(Sorry to be redundant, but there still a few people who don't know this)

The original album that Fleetwood Mac submitted to the record company was titled Another Link In The Chain and was scheduled to be released in either November or December 1994 (in time for the Christmas rush). It was done by the then TOURING Fleetwood Mac band (no Christine McVie)...all Billy, Bekka & Dave tunes. It wasn't until the record company used a "small print" clause in FMac's contract with something about CONTRACTUALLY Christine McVie had to be involved, that they shelved the original album and went back in the studio to add Christine's tunes and revamp the album that was released in October 1995 that we now know as Time.

(WB did a similar thing with Eric Clapton's 1985 album Behind The Sun...rejecting it and making Clapton record a number of new, record company supplied, songs, before they would ok its release...one of which was the song "Something's Happening" with one Lindsey Buckingham on acoustic guitar)

My "alternate" Time running order:

I DO
TALKIN' TO MY HEART
I WONDER WHY
WINDS OF CHANGE
SOONER OR LATER
DREAMING THE DREAM

NIGHTS IN ESTORIL
NOTHING WITHOUT YOU
BLOW BY BLOW
I GOT IT IN FOR YOU
HOLLYWOOD (SOME OTHER KIND OF TOWN)
THESE STRANGE TIMES
ALL OVER AGAIN

I know this has been asked before, but does anyone know the original tracklist of Another Link? We'll probably never get to hear it -- though it'd be a fascinating two-disc rerelease if/when the Mac catalogue ever gets the full treatment. Sometimes these unreleased, supressed albums do eventually see the light of day (such as Associates' Glamour Chase).

For visual contrast, here is the actual Time tracklist (from wiki):

And my Time would be something like this :D

1. Blue Denim
2. Talkin´ To My Heart
3. Sooner Or Later
4. Honey Love
5. Love Is Like A River
6. Walk Another Mile
7. Rose Garden
8. Nights In Estoril
9. Intuition
10. Poor Souls In Love
11. Street Angel
12. All Over Again

And part of the tour was called "Another Link in the Chain" too. I can remember that publicity vaguely.

Michele

I think it's ridiculous to wish that the Rumours phenomenon had never occurred, because if it wasn't for Rumours...

...there would be no Tusk (as a reaction to Rumours)

...with all of the infighting and drama, the band would have split up if there wasn't a major payday involved.

...all the members would have remained in relative obscurity and solo record deals would have been unlikely.

...FM would have faded into obscurity like many of their 70's contemporaries like America, Kansas, Three Dog Night, Foghat, Firefall, etc.

Yes, whether we like it or not Rumours is FM's raison d'etre today. It established a level of critical superstardom that has allowed them to stay immensely popular despite the dearth of new material. Yes, I am bored by the repetition... but I am also infinitely grateful that they are still around doing what they do so well. But you certainly cannot fault their work ethic- between solo and band projects the FM fan always has something to look forward to.

Interesting scenario.

Well, let's say that there was a Rumours without the phenomenon. It was hailed as a good album, but it didn't sell mad crazy. Let's say that it would have sold a million or 2 more than the White Album did. I think that would have been enough to keep the ball rolling a little.

After all, the guys were going to break up romantically anyway and the White album held them together a little longer. The White album gave them more money than they had ever had before. They liked that. So, a non-astronomical, but successful Rumours might also have given them enough incentive to, ah, keep on trucking. They would still have had all the emotional problems, but they also would still want to be successful and maintain their new riches, so I don't know if they would have been that quick to walk away from the band.

So, if they kept having Top 10 hits, I think the public would have remained interested in them through the eighties, without getting as psychotic as it did. Maybe they would have made even more albums, so they would have something to tour on.

It was funny to me in the pre-Rumours interviews Lindsey was saying that Rhiannon was a hit they didn't expect and they just keep on having singles off of the album. Stevie said, if that's the case, then they could take even longer to release the new album, if the singles from the first album were still popular.

If Rumours had been less popular, I agree with you we wouldn't have gotten Tusk in reaction. I think Lindsey would still have wanted to make Tusk, but the rest of the band wouldn't have had as much reason to indulge him as the Rumours success gave him. Maybe we wouldn't even have gotten Tango, but we might have gotten 4 Mirage-type albums instead. More albums and more touring, before they broke up gradually at the end of the eighties and faded away because the public lost interest -- not because of some big, Tango fight.

Oh well. I'm happy with how it all happened. I'm proud that they reached the stratosphere, even if it left them Leashed for ever after.

Michele

The Rumours phenomenon was very much connected to its innovativeness. Here was this album, full of songs that were designed to stand alone, to be HITS, potential singles, perfect little units. Yet, here was this album -- a proverbial dessert platter -- that actually ended up telling a story: it's a collection of love songs sung to each other. It subverted the merely commercial dictates of the record medium. in that way, its title reflects how the album exemplifed the ways that vernacular culture (and its truths) enter the mass-production mainstream ("run in the shadows!"). I think that makes it a mighty achievement. In other words, the dictates of capitalism are subverted by the meaning-making of the band's use of the album medium.

I'm not sure how well I articulated all that.

Anyway, the challenge with an album like Mirage is that its themes are less concrete; it really does play like a dessert platter of perfectly constructed ditties. But each of the artists (even when making songs about each other, as with "Gypsy") seems disconnected in artistic pursuit and thematic concerns (Tusk is a complex matter for another day). I don't think that that sense of cohesion returned (entirely) to the Mac after Tusk until Say You Will -- the sound of which may have been primarily dictated by Lindsey, but the meaning derives from Stevie's belief that 9/11 changed everything.

And I'm not sure how to approach or define the thematic, artistic unity of early Mac. Green and Spencer shared a sense of spiritual crisis, for example.

I think Mick's LOVE subtly unites the farewell of Christine, the youthful hopefulness of Billy/Bekka's musical chemistry, the rugged perserverance of Dave Mason on Time.

A million or two more than the white album is still quite a ****load of albums! But let's say for the sake of argument that the album sold three million copies (like Mirage)- a hit by any metric, but not exactly setting the world on fire- would Stevie have had the cred to put out a solo record with top shelf producers and musicians? Would Tom Petty bother writing songs for her? Would Lindsey have been allowed such creative control on Tusk and every one of his quirky solo albums? If there was no Tusk and if Bella Donna was a half-assed affair, and they continued to crank out Mirage Parts I, II, III and IV, I am pretty sure I would not be too interested. And for me part of the allure of FM has been this built-in tension whenever they regrouped- almost as if they are doing it under protest and that any spark could blow up the powder keg. And of course they worked together because of the immense reward as well as, some shred of artistic cohesion lying far beneath the layers of jealousy, resentment and antipathy. If it wasn't for the big tours, private jets and lofty advances and artistic freedom, I suspect they would have finally called it a day after Mirage (or whatever album that would have followed Rumours).

In my case, not well at all, I'm afraid. It reminded me of a University of California Press book my teacher once told me to read.

Here's the part where we appear to be listening to different music. :]
:xoxo:

That reminds me of the Steve Pond review of the Hollywood Bowl Sept. 1, 1980, show. He referred to the "powder-keg detonation of Go Your Own Way" ... the "awesome momentum of The Chain and Tusk" ... the "oppressive brilliance of a slow I'm So Afraid" ... the "deft keyboard touches that illuminate Over & Over."

And then he says that Stevie's "dying swan poses & Fairie Queene pretensions" are "still essentially decorative."

Its probably a few more than that today with all the people who bought it after The Dance, etc. 35,000 was the figure being tossed around in the music press after the album's lack of success.

But Time was already in the cutout bin by the end of 1995. And given Lindsey's none-too-subtle put-downs of that lineup at the time of the Dance, I doubt there was a rush to buy more copies. I think 35K is probably the extent of it, which I assume are the officially scanned numbers. I suspect that many more copies were actually shipped but considered "returns."

Ok. Thanks.

Michele

I have been listening to Time a bit today after throwing my 2c worth in this thread. Currently listening to Blow By Blow, and you know what I realised, this album is actually just out of chronological order, it needs to be slotted in somewhere around Penguin or Mystery to Me.

Take a listen to Blow By Blow and you'll see it is almost a more modern version of (I'm a) Road runner, listen to Hollywood (Some Other Kind Of Town) and you'll see it was pre-Rumours Christine all over again.

The only problem I can see with moving the album to about 1973 is that Bekka would only be 5 :)

:eek:
If you're trying to make a case FOR the merits of Time THAT comparison actually works against you. ;)

The two Dave Mason songs just sound like...well, Dave Mason songs. Those could be on any of his albums (and, on second thought, maybe Split Coconut or Mariposa De Oro specifically).

For all the energy I've put into DEFENDING the Time album, I don't think I've ever really stated my criticisms of it (other than the running order). There's something blatantly missing (and I don't mean Buckingham or Nicks! :mad: ) Fleetwood Mac's legacy is one of having great lead guitarists...but, other than some run-0f-the-mill solos in a few of the songs, there's no real kick butt lead in any of them. They recruited Dave Mason, one of the all-time greats, but where IS he on the album? Except at the end "I Wonder Why", but what bugs me about THAT, is that Dashut & Fleetwood decided to mix Bekka's vamp OVER Dave's one & only real expressive lead guitar part on the album. Those "I wonder why-ee-ayes" that are mixed way too high bug the hell out of me.The solo on "Winds Of Change" starts out great, but then really goes nowhere. It just seems like the INTENSITY of the guitar work is really what's missing throughout the album. It's as though they sacrificed stellar guitar parts for the sake of the songs, when actually had they had more intensity in the guitars, the songs would've benefitted from it. The songs themselves are just fine, but the lack of "in your face" guitars overly softens the entire production of them.

The best lead guitar work on the entire album is on "These Strange Times" played by the one & only MICK FLEETWOOD!!!!! Now what does THAT tell you?? (Obviously, after all those years of rubbing shoulders with some of the greatest guitarists on the planet, something must've rubbed off...even if he IS "just a drummer".)

Ok, back to "sing the praises of Time mode. :thumbsup:

This.

...though I love using the "vocal remover" feature on my mp3 software as it does a good job of taking Bekka's part out or at least pushing it to the back and you can hear Dave's lead guitar solo pretty good.

Also, just regarding DM in general, it seems like he didn't like to solo much on his own albums, after Alone Together and some of the live stuff, he doesn't really have many long solos on record (a few exceptions, "Side Tracked" from ILYNL, "Long Lost Friend" from SC, etc.) and I always wondered why (no pun intented) someone that has such a great talent (based on what we HAVE been able to hear him do on leads) didn't seem to want to put those skills to use, at least on record?

Anyways, like you, back to the praises. :)

John