NME article
 

Hi folks!

I promised a looooooooong time ago to post an old NME article where Peter mentioned the Green-Kirwan intrumental album that never materialized. (Remember, Sharksfan?;) )
The article was called "Why Peter Green wants to give away his money".

I have several articles and interviews from 1968-70, and I'd gladly post more, but it takes time because I am no computer Einstein and the limit for pictures is 100 kb. So I have to split them up...

So this is rather caveman-ish, but I hope you folks enjoy! :p

Daniel

The rumour of Danny leaving Mac in 1970 is mentioned in another article that I have too .. one announcing a FM live LP to be released in 1970 (the Boston Tea Party recordings). In that article Clifford Davis denies Danny leaving, but revealing that Danny had been under much stress. I think the story was that Danny had walked off stage in anger during a show.

Article
 

Thanks for sharing, couldn't stop reading....

/Z

Very nice stuff. Like a trip through time.

Thank you.

Michele

Daniel, I do remember that you were going to post this, and thanks so much for doing it! :thumbsup: Very nice to read this article....I know it's not easy to deal with that 100kb limit for uploads so I think everyone here appreciates the time it took you to do this. Love to see more articles if you get the time - thanks again!

What a damn shame!
 

If Peter could've stayed in the the line-up just another six months, his future would've been very different. The Boston Tea Party shows would've been released the same year as "Live at Leeds", and "Get Your Ya Ya's Out". That album would've changed the band in the U.S.. Even if Green had left at the end of 1970, his legacy would've been sealed in America instead of his cult status among musicians, and anglophiles in the states. One listens to those concerts in the winter/spring of 1970, compared to concerts from '69, and this is a band on the verge of greatness. By 1970, they had figured out how to balance Spencer, Green, and Kirwan songs that didn't bore the audience. When I first discovered this version of FM years ago, you heard "acid casualty". Being a Syd Barrett Pink Floyd fan I know what "acid casualty" truly was when Barrett could no longer play with Pink Floyd on stage, and stood still in silence. From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best. :shrug:

P.S. thanks dansven for the work it took to post this.

Thanks friends! :)

Slipkid, that's interesting ... comparing the Boston recordings with "Ya Ya's" and "Leeds". :nod:
I've posted another article on the Pre-Rumours forum .. also something that "could have been".

Even though it wasn't released until years later, the three volume Boston set should stand along "Leeds" and "Live at the Fillmore East" (Allman Bros.) as the best live rock albums of all time. I mentioned Ya Ya's because it was released in '70, but I don't think it's the best or one of the best live albums, though it is very good. I have a Stones at Leeds '71 boot that kills Ya Ya's.

Another reason to stick it out for another six months: Kiln House (with Peter Green). "Loving Kind", "Only You", and "Sandy Mary" never made it to the recording studio (outside of the BBC). Add those dual guitar gems to the existing album and it's another animal.

In my last post it was supposed to be "friends" in plural! :woohoo:

Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones. :D

It's also interesting that Peter revisited a couple of his own blues songs, both as studio outakes and onstage. I'm thinking about "Fast Talking Woman Blues" (based on "Driftin'") and "Leaving Town Blues" from BBC/Show-Biz Blues album. Both songs were unreleased at the time ... So I've always imagined that the next FM album (if Peter had stayed) would have contained one of these.... :shrug:

I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.

Great caveman superpost rules!
 

Thank you very much for posting this article dansven. Music magazines at the end of the sixties were great. I remember reading NME as a very young kid, but alas! I was not interested in FM then, so I never kept them! So it is really really nice to see this article. Like Sharksfan2000 I would appreciate if you some time - along the way - have the time and patience to struggle with whatever it takes (I am an IT- illiterate myself, so I know how it is).

Thanks again - Ms Moose :woohoo:

Thank you, Daniel!
Greeny comes across as very clear-headed in that interview, more Bob Geldof than Syd Barrett.
Please put up more stuff when you have time ;)

I know what you mean about that Kiln House era "Like It This Way", Daniel (that boot is listed as Fillmore West, 7 August 1970, one of their first live shows after Peter left the band). I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.

:laugh:

Yes, that's the one. Thanks for the date! And perhaps it was right of them to leave it and look forward instead..

Check out the Pre-Rumours forum for another article! ;)

To me:

Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none. Derek & The Dominos' In Concert is far back at #2. The Live At The Boston Tea Party is probably a distant third. Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late. The Stones didn't release a decent live album until Flashpoint. Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums. And, let's not forget Jimi Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys.:thumbsup:

Something told me you would come here to defend the Allman Brothers. :D

I don't know about the "long been touted". As far as I can tell, you had those that chose Fillmore, and others that chose Leeds. Jam band vs. the power chord. While Leeds was only five songs originally, side two of that album was freakin' amazing. I don't agree that Live in Boston is a distant third, in fact it's now my favorite by a long shot. What suffers from "Fillmore" is Whipping Post and You Don't Love Me. The jams get a little stale. Now Hot Lanta, and Liz Reed are perfect. Band of Gypsys is a good one, so is Dominoes Fillmore, which was released in '94. In the jamming dept. I like the way that Green and Kirwan hold my attention, where other bands (Grateful Dead of course) can get quite boring. So for me it's Boston all the way.

I fail to understand how ANYONE can call "Whippin' Post" & "You Don't Love Me" ...st-st-st-stale (?!?!?!). Same with the 40+ minute "Mountain Jam" from the Fillmore Concerts reissue (identical track as the one on Eat A Peach) For me, those 20+ minutes go by like they're barely 5 minutes. (Granted, same thing with the Boston Tea Party versions of "Rattlesnake Shake", too).

I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?" (but, then, we'll never know where the Allman Bros would've gone had Duane Allman & Berry Oakley lived, either....plus, Hendrix, Janis, Morrison, etc, we just lost too many great ones too soon)

Cream never put out a real live album while they were together...just live tracks mixed with studio tracks for their last two albums. The two live albums they DID release were well after they'd broken up...so I don't really count those, since they're mish-mash from different shows, not all from one concert or series of shows within 24-48 hours. But, if they had, they'd be up there!

Yeah, I like the Dominos' Fillmore set, too...but, I prefer a couple of track choices from the In Concert album better...for example, "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad?"...the In Concert version is far superior to the version from the Fillmore set...can't recall off the top of my head, but it's from either the evening show on the same day, or the next night. I think "Let It Rain" & "Tell The Truth" are also from different shows between the two sets, but for the most part, the Fillmore set is just an expanded version of In Concert.

The only real downside of Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys is Buddy Miles' scat singing...its great in a few places, but he just didn't seem to know when to back off. I read a thing where when Jimi was mixing the tapes for release, he just put his head in his hands and screamed "Buddy, shut the f**k UP!!!". Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to hear the final product.

Now, for the most part, I'm right there with you regarding the Grateful Dead...love 'em a lot, but damned they can get boring quite often.

I was aware of "Mountain Jam" from the "Fillmore Concerts". Since that came from "Eat a Peach", I left it alone, and it's better than Whippin' Post, and You Don't Love Me/Soul Serenade by many miles.

I don't want to get technical, but the Allmans' (when Duane was alive) had a tendency to get "stuck in a rut" with their solos. This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

You get my original point with Fleetwood Mac! If the Boston shows were released in their period of time (instead of 1985 on LP), it would've changed everything for the band. What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness. :distress:

Those Cream Live I and II are horrible. It explains why the band broke up on a few levels. Towards the end the band was just on an ego trip, mainly Bruce vs. ham hands Ginger Baker. Ginger's ego is so off the charts even today, he can't get over that Keith Moon was a better drummer in his prime. Filming a documentary for the RAH 2005 concerts, he can help but to knock The Who because they weren't playing "refined" blues rock music. IMHO Ginger Baker, and Neil Peart are examples of overrated drummers of their time.

I should check out the original "In Concert" for the Dominoes.

I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...

As for Band of Gypsys, it's my personal live album favorite. He did live to hear the result - the album came out in April, and Hendrix died in September. The song choices, edits and mixes are Jimi's. It has weak spots (it was a contractual filler, quickly done), but "Machine Gun" is out of this world.

Wonder what songs Mac would have selected from the Boston Tea Party concerts?
IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.

For the short sighted
 

It's all fairly subjective in the end but there's no shortage of notable concerts captured live during the sixties and seventies (beyond what first meets the eye, or those thoroughly idiotic Rolling Stone rag lists). I rate the following both by impact of the time, plus how well I feel these hold their own over time (listed roughly by date):

Best Live albums of the late 60's-early 70's period IMO (as cited by consensus already):
- Cream - Live Cream Vol 1 + 2 (1968) ^
- The Who - Live At Leeds (1970) [Expanded set]
- Fleetwood Mac - Live At The Boston Tea Party (1970)
- Allman Brothers Band - Live At Fillmore East (1971)

Live albums from that same period that could easily be categorized with the above IMO:
- John Mayall - The Turning Point (1969)
- Elvis Presley - At The International Hotel (1969)
- Ten Years After - Live At The Fillmore East (1970)
- Creedence Clearwater Revival - The Concert (1970) **
- It's A Beautiful Day - Live At Carnegie Hall (1972)
- Deep Purple - Made In Japan (1972)
- Elvis Presley - At Madison Square Garden (1972)
- Ten Years After - Recorded Live (1973)
- Van Morrison - It's Too Late To Stop Now (1973)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums recorded during the 60's:
- Jerry Lee Lewis - Live At The Star Club (1964)
- The Yardbirds - Five Live Yardbirds (1964)
- Johnny Rivers - Live At The Whiskey A-Go-Go [series] (1964-65)
- The Ventures - On Stage (1965)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums from the mid-to-late 70's IMO:
- Alvin Lee - In Flight (1974)
- Robin Trower - Live! (1975)
- Peter Frampton - Frampton Comes Alive (1976)
- Jackson Browne - Running On Empty (1977)
- Cheap Trick - At Budokan (1979)

> Frampton, Browne and Cheap Trick don't rate among my fave bands, but those live albums clearly have their moments.

* Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out! (1970) :: overrated [saw the Stones a number of times during this period and this recording somehow misses the genuinely engaging interplay between Richards and Taylor]

* Jimi Hendrix - Band Of Gypsies (1970) :: beyond the nice guitar theatrics, it tails off on the whole rather quickly

* Derek & The Dominos - In Concert + Live At The Fillmore (1972) :: unfortunately misses one key element from the studio band who was no longer on the scene by the time the album made its appearance (but could have been when it was recorded - and would have helped greatly - if he hadn't been off making #4 from the top)

** CCR - Live In Europe (1971) :: recorded shortly after brother Tom Fogerty left the band, the 1998 Japanese import remastering of the trio brings new life to the original (which admittedly sounded a tad harsh at times)

^ I believe it was Cream who were the first to tap the sonic reach of mobile recording equipment behind wizards Tom Dowd and Bill Halverson

See you mothers later. Jb

Snoot!!!
 

Welcome back! You used to keep the Peter Green, and Pre-Rumours boards alive with your opinions. Without you it's been pretty dead every three weeks or so. I would replace the Cream Live I + II with Deep Purple's "Made in Japan". The rest of your list I would agree with.

>>>I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...


Yes the live albums, mainly recorded late 68 when the band were burned out, are a bit excessive, but the live parts of "Wheels of Fire", recorded March 68 are truly fantastic. Spoonful, one of the greatest moments of the art of improvisation performed by a rock band, and the fiery Clapton solo on Crossroads...

Greetz to you too
 

You mean, I used to rile the barricaded green troops to a state of near agitation, often with teeth gnashing. lol Well as it were, I found my way out of my cave one fine day, stumbled for a bit before passing out, only to wake up and find myself here once again. Go figure. :D

You know the problem with citing things like "ace albums" is that there are always more than what first meets the eye. I mean, no **** sherlock. Case in point: I blissfully overlooked Gordon Lightfoot's Sunday Concert (1969), a classic acoustic affair from the great Canadian balladeer teamed with fingerpicker Red Shea -- complete with a winning cover of Dylan's "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues". Then there was Focus Live At The Rainbow (1973) featuring Thijs van Leer and Jan Akkerman in top Dutchmeister form. Not too shabby there either.

Hell, I even enjoy The Carpenters' Live In Japan (1974) -and- Live At The Palladium (1976). Talk about a sap. :p But of course, you have to be either a Carpenters fan, or - at a minimum - imbued with a mellow enough musical mindset to accept a style like theirs on its own merits. For me it's easy, as they had great melodies and arrangements coupled with a top notch vocalist - one who can actually carry a note without the all too common overlay of flatness. Imagine that.

I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I could come up with even more winning concert releases from that memorable era. If nothing else, the ones cited above stand out first and foremost. BTW your point on Cream is appreciated but only partly ... however I do know where you're coming from. See below for more.

Point taken
 

You and Slipkid and others make a valid point re excess, only a few things should be remembered. First off, that sound was damn near mind blowing in its time. Beyond that, Clapton's free form jams may have been anything but "perfect" but still outshone most of the rockers of the era. He was clearly pushing new boundaries, rivaled only by Hendrix in that regard (with Beck and Green and Page et al pulling up the rear). Lastly, most audiences were either stoned or lit up on juice und spirits in one form or another. The improvs of the psychedelic era - and the sheer volume of the amplification - were intended to BLOW YOUR MIND as much as anything else. 'Nuff said.

Do those two live Cream volumes stand up well over time? Well definitely not to the point of psychedelic nirvana that's for sure, and I bet EC would be the first to agree. But pinned to the time, they were pretty wild and at the vanguard of pushing the ever expanding rock envelope (plus a clear prelude to heavy metal to boot, for better or worse). In any case, nothing tops the reach of Disraeli Gears, but that's studio material so no point heading there.

You also bring up a second interesting point, when referencing the live part of Wheels Of Fire [thanks for refreshing my sleepy cerebral coconut] as in my mind, all three sets have long blurred into one. And I agree, without tracks like Crossroads and Spoonful, you can't reach an apex of the group live just as you've alluded to. As I see it, if you really want a tight Cream set live, you would have to cherry-pick from all three sources. Too bad it wasn't done that way originally!

BTW if memory serves me right, Crossroads - in all its celebrated glory - took a bit of production sorcery by producer Felix Pappalardi to attain that tight framing. The original recording was considerably longer, then spliced to perfection for effect + impact. And damn if he and EC didn't pull that off adroitly. :thumbsup:

PS for slipkid. As for Ginger Baker, that guy had chops. Sure, a touch over the top at times but come on. Beating your meat with yer sticks was par for the course back then. Too bad he and Jack Bruce were always at each other's throats, that was the bigger problem. That reduced Clapton to the role of peacemaker as much as anything else in the group, something that clearly grated on him as time went on. It also guaranteed any longevity to the band was to be short lived.

No, that's a myth. "Crossroads" on Wheels Of Fire is exactly how it was performed...no edits. (per Tom Dowd...mentioned the DVD bio of him.)

And, don't forget the killer live tracks from their Goodbye album. "I'm So Glad", "Sittin' On Top Of The World" & "Politician", as tight as Cream EVER sounded live.

I'll go on record, the live material from Wheels of Fire and Goodbye are top notch.

There's no doubt Ginger Baker had chops, I just don't like his style. He was a master at the double bass drum, however he never used his wrists the way Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Ian Paice, or Clive Bunker did. It wasn't an effortless style of play. He thumped the drums.

Cream are mindblowingly boring compared to The Jimi Hendrix Experience or Green-era Mac. IMHO, Cream were best when they stuck to 4-5 minutes per song - witness the early live tapes. Hendrix and Green had the imagination to make a 10-minute solo worthwhile, something very rare. I can't think of another guitarists with that gift, but that's just me. And drum solos are always boring.

Ah
 

Ah good to hear that confirmed. That story has swirled about for years. When I first heard it I was a little surprised I'll admit, since the track always seemed seamless. But given that so much of their concert material is extended, I figured anything might be possible. There is only one point where such an edit could have occurred IMO, and that's well into the song (can you guess where?). Glad you set me right - I like it that way better.

Ya more of the same, as it dribbled in a la carte as only Cream could do it. I recall I had a self-compiled cassette of all of Cream's "best" material once upon a time, one side live and the other studio. That's how good they were considered live by most of us, whereas few bands back then could merit such space considerations (let alone release enough concert material). Probably hasn't been played in 20 to 25 years now -- same with all my original LPs of the band. That's also how most did it years ago as many here know or recall, when tape began to rule over clumsy discs. The one truly great upside was that ability to make custom compilations of one's own choosing.

Slice it or dice it any way you want, Cream set the world on fire live back then in concert, more than any other act of the day (circa 1966-68). They preceded Fleetwood Mac in the jam style, and licked Hendrix at his own game by being having a greater overall reach. There were axes every bit as good as EC at the time, some arguably better, but few brought as well rounded and varied a package to the table as the trio comprising Cream. How well their concert sound has withstood the test of time is for each to decide. But that was then, and this is now. And those were two clearly different times.

Time out
 

Yeah well he was in a power trio at the time, and in such configurations the drummer is expected to carry extra weight to add to the mix and fill things out a bit better. I always felt he pulled the task off well. I like your anointed ones though - not a weak one in the crop. But there are a lot of other talented stick men too, starting with Baker's ultimate replacement in the Slowhand sphere, Jim Gordon (albeit rotting in a Cali prison now for killing his mama).

You're too guitar minded for your own good. But that's cool, to each his own. There's more to a band and its ultimate place in the sun than just the point man. Clapton easily fits in with the company of Hendrix and Beck, and certain other axemeisters who took to the stage immediately upon their heels. They were/are all superb rockers, but each possessed varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses. No man possessed it all. But when it came to 1963-1967, NO ONE topped EC in leading the charge - and if there was a single exception, it would have to be Jimi on technical, cutting edge ability alone. Thus the name Clapton got. As for 1968 and beyond, that's a whole different story with the emergence of Green, Allman, Lee and so many others (just to cite those three is cherry picking in a way). I'm also going by the time they had a truly effective splash on the public at large, and in the jam or improv style.

Now I'll give you that drum solos are generally boring, but they're even more boring when caught on tape. In concert they're mostly a diversion and break for the rest of the band, plus a chance for the guy on the sticks to show off his chops and add a little percussive punch to the proceedings. It was obligatory back in the day, especially in the psychedelic arena. I'll go one step further - for every ten 10-minute guitar solos, nine probably could have been reduced for better effect and punch. Again, especially if they're going to be transferred later into permanency, that is, to tape or disc. But live and direct, most tend to be a blast and crowd pleasers. A few even shine on extended merit alone. But even in this precious space, Duane and Dickey (like nearly every other) could overdo it at times - dare I say Live At The Fillmore has a number of meandering moments in the mix ... check.

snootmeister
 

The land of comparisons await us all

having heard in person several of the aformentioned live concerts from which these comparisons are derived. I can only say that they were far better in person than they were on record.

best drum solo captured live "came from the santana drummer during soul sacrifice in woodstock" It was like being in "drumline"

great live albums
The best of all.....BB King "Blues Is KIng"/Don'tanswer the door

Allman Brothers Live at the Filmore I was there
Quick Siver Messinger Service "Happy Trails" although it too was like Cream in that it was mix and match i was at the fillmore east side
Ten years after "Undead" Live at Klooks Kleek
Band Of Gypsies I was there. The best show I ever saw
Boston Tea Party the new Disc one
LIve Dead
Mayall the turning point i was there too
The best Dead Concert was on Bootleg 2/1/70 with peter green..as the announcer said The best ****ing music in the world"
which is better its all taste

doodyhead

By the way, Thanks for the article...very cool
 

we will be very patient and appreciative

Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.


:lol: You're going to get a response from chiliD for that one! (I stated this in earlier posts on this thread)

Doodydog
 

Doody knowz, as he was immersed in those heady days. You know, the only place that could top the west coast circuit [LA + SF ] back then was NYC, your playpen. So for that reason all I can say is YOU LUCKY DOG. To have attended the ABB Fillmore series back when Duane was being captured for posterity gives you distinct bragging rights. And to find out you witnessed the "three John" Turning Point recording with Mark-Almond in the first person brings a tear to my eyes. A happy tear all the same. :laugh: wow

Overlooked Happy Trails from '69 indeed ... you know you date back when Duncan & Cipollina are on your radar. Have one over on you though, saw QMS coupled with the Mac at the Swing with Valente at the helm. Who knew it would turn out to be a freak - but historical - event thanks to one disappearing dude named Spencer. Only wish I could recall more details of it all instead of just drabs of bits and pieces. Everything becomes such a blur and haze over time, more so when you're tagged a bit. Same thing with so many other concerts all those years ago.

Saw TYA more times than I can count (Alvin Lee was always a great live act), the Stones with Taylor (but never with Jones - and even once with a little known Texas band as the opening act called ZZ Top doing their latest ditty "La Grange"), the Moody Blues when Pinder was working that magical mellotron of his and Hayward was soaring (but never when the Denny Laine fronted 'em, much to my regret), Chuck Berry + Bo Diddley on their big reunion tour (circa '70 or whenever it was), IABD a handful of times both with Hal Wagenet and later Bill Gregory on lead guitar (Gregory doubling up with Tom Fowler of Zappa-fame on the bass), Lightfoot with Red Shea + Terry Clements, Steve Miller when Boz Scaggs was still aboard, Bob Welch both solo and in FM, Bread with Gates and Griffen, Camel with Bardens + Latimer, Canned Heat when the Bear and Blind Owl hooted (+Vestine on lead axe), Cat Stevens before the ME transformation, the Beckmeister, Mandel, Tull in their prime, The Rascals, Dave Mason with the late Jimmy Krueger, EC and FM too many times to count ... on and on wanks da little monkey.

Ah those were the days my friend (remember that old serenade our folks used to play, and now we're living? :eek:). The best part was it was all relatively CHEAP in the crazy hazy days of yesteryear. Sometimes as little as 3 or 5 bucks! Could I be dreaming? :cool: Fat chance.

Ha. Well all I can say is you've got one up on chiliD then. :D

Let me echo Vinnie in a shout out to the OP. Nice share there Daniel -- plus an additional one to Sharky for nipping at your heels to see it through. :thumbsup:

You're welcome folks! :)
It's fascinating to see this thread turn into a discussion about classic live albums.
Cool!:cool:

More thoughts #1
 

slipkid: From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best.

Pete was hit n miss by this point mate. When he was on, he was on. However he was flying way too high way too often, and often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band. Eventually it came to a head.

slipkid: Another reason to stick it out for another six months: Kiln House (with Peter Green).

I have my sincere doubts about this eventuality, more so if you're alluding to Kiln House by name (and thus implicit binding). Little chance there would have been any such thing with PG in the lineup, at least as I see it. That was a Spencer-Kirwan initiative all the way. I doubt that kind of retro revisitation would never have gone over well with guns a-blazin' Green. Beyond that, it was but a slice of a larger pie back then --50's retro was all the rage circa 1970. To cite but one example, it was around that time that R&R pioneers like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley were resurfacing and once again making something of a splash. Sha Na Na (Who who who?) did their unheard-of thing at Woodstock just before Hendrix took the stage and further lit the nostalgia spark.

Kiln House was simply one of the better projects cut of that cloth at that time (and my personal favorite). Danny worked well with Jeremy on his solo effort that had only recently been brought under wraps, and the two seemed to just keep truckin' all the way to that country estate known as Kiln House - that is, once Pete quit the game.

dansven: Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones.

Well you better get to it, as you ain't getting any younger (just like the rest of us). If you haven't experienced ABB by this point, you're in for a treat. I'd suggest Decade Of Hits for a quick teaser if nothing else. Live At The Fillmore is another classic of course -- but then, aren't all those early ABB albums up to Brothers And Sisters? One of the truly GREAT live acts, then and now, and a lot of that has to do with Gregg at the helm. They remind me of the lesser know Three Man Army of the Gurvitz Bros in that they were a great live outfit, and as the TMA name suggests, it emanates from a distinct three point attack - in the case of ABB, Gregg, Duane and Dickey in equal parts.

Note to slipkid: Check out TMA's history if you haven't yet. They're associated, directly or indirectly, with everyone from Graeme Edge of the Moody Blues to Buddy Miles, Carmine Appice and Tony Newman. Ultimately Adrain and Paul would team up with - you guessed it - Ginger Baker. It was at that point that Three Man Army became the Baker Gurvitz Army.

dansven: I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.

Well put. :cool:

sharky: I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.

I'd bet it could be covered under one word: transition. They were caught in a "out with the old, in with the new" flux. Only how do you break new ground all the while letting go of that precious green tether that had always been the chief driving force behind all that constituted the Mac? Lots of strange experiments were played out during this interim period; you're only looking at a tiny slice of it all in citing such things.

chiliD: Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none.

Bar none? That's a pretty tall order if you ask me. Why don't we just settle on :: its a GREAT live performance, and apropos of one of the best live rock acts ever in ABB, the world's first and foremost Southern Guitar Army.

chiliD: Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late.

I always thought the original was a nice teaser but a tad short. And it's true - the expanded set is just so much nicer. :thumbsup:

chiliD: Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums.

Nice call. "Yeehaw" to paraphrase the guy on the point (only he was Brit and not Texas tea as cited) ;)

More thoughts #2
 

chiliD: I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?"

"Found a way to stay..."? You mean stay = in the game? In the driver's seat? In the band? Fat chance. Peter's cup had filleth and overflown already. In your dreams, sure -- if only "if's" didn't count of course. But then you invariably wake up and realize wishful thinking is just that and little more. It's sad but true that all of life's regrets spin around "ifs'. Besides, it's those bumps and turns that make up the signature continuum of Fleetwood Mac, which only adds to the band's mystique and ongoing appeal. And in some ways, freshness.

slipkid: This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

I'll second that in so far as Haynes (like Derek) has done a helluva job coming aboard to fill rather large boots in the latter day ABB. And we all know a clean Dickey is a better Dickey indeed. [Why oh why did he choose to file that bloody lawsuit and f*ck things up for good?]

slipkid: What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness.

Another "if only" pipe dream. Read His Cup Filleth And Ran Over from above.

BTW FM '75 and Rumours -IS- greatness. You don't seriously doubt that, do you? Beyond that, well .... that's another story ... and then some.

slipkid: Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.

Gordon was a drummer's drummer, with a deft touch that left many of his contemporaries in awe. That includes many of the great session men of the day, to include notables like Hal Blaine. Aces for Keith Moon too, with his more driving style. But another widely admired to this day.

dino: IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.

You're right about Jeremy and those frequent translation misses, but when he shifts just a tad closer to the genuine thing - a la Blood On The Floor or This Is The Rock - you quickly emerge upon fresher ground. KH is full of hints of promising JS paths, beyond its overtly nostalgic framing.

I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot. All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great! But you know my opinion, Snoot? And let's not get into all that now... :D

Anyway, what I think is interesting is the so called "Munich incident"... I don't really think it ever was one!!! Oh, I know what's been said and told by Peter, Mick, Jeremy, Dinky, and especially John McVie. Of course I believe they visited the Germans, and I've seen the girl ... and she was GORGEOUS!!! ;) And yeah, they probably took drugs, but that's no sensation.
What I don't believe is that the Germans were after Peter, that they brainwashed him, that they spiked him with superstrong acid. And that this particular incident left Peter "changed" or "destroyed", and led to him deciding to leave the band and all the mental issues later.


I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.
Snoot says that Peter was "often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band". Yes, that may be quite true. His guitar style changed/expanded radically the last months. And so did his taste in musical genres.

Then it was the thing about money ... having too much, while Africa was starving. The feeling of being different from the average man and woman. Wishing to share the money, but not having the rest of the band with him. The need to start over again, without the false showbiz crap.

So, I believe the two main things that led to Peter leaving Fleetwood Mac was:
1. Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!
2. Guilt!

The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths. It's a way to explain what isn't understood. And it's a way for John McVie and many others to explain the sad truth that Peter left the band and became ill.

So folks, what are your opinions and feelings about "Munich"?

I will, I will! :) I'll let you know soon!

Let's rumble
 

This is reminiscent of what I just posted in the Rumours section [yes I actually wormed my way in there for some misguided reason] under the post Genre of Rock? -- in that one shoe (answer) does not fit all (everything).

dansven: I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot.

I'm not referring specifically to the Munich affair Daniel, as I have never believed that alone accounts for Green's wigging out, and eventual quitting of the game. Could it have contributed to it? Sure, but to what extent I'm not sure any of us will ever know definitively. Only I'll lay down my last dollar in stating it wasn't the entire reason - just as you believe. If you go back and read earlier posts of mine, you will see I've stated the same thing all along.

dansven: All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up.

Part of this contention and even confusion stems from misinterpretations - or lack of specifics - in the descriptions we all use. When I say hit n miss, I'm above all else referring to his mental state, more than his playing state. Now as in the past.

As for the young Germans being after Peter with intentions to brainwash etc, that's pure bunk. Only an imbecile would believe that that house visit alone spun Peter 180 degrees. You only have to follow the trail up to that point to glimpse the fuller picture. To what extent Munich pushed the whole thing over the top is anyone's guess - but IMO what happened to PG was inevitable with or without Munich, as it was a long time coming. Like I said earlier, his cup filleth and ran over. Excessive drug use can do that. And sometimes that's all it takes and the damage is done for good.

dansven: I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.

I think these factors did play into his quitting the band, and the scene in general. Again to what extent versus even further factors - to include pressure, fatigue, burnout, guilt, altruism, mental decline - is anyone's guess. But they are part of the equation. This all makes for engaging conversation if nothing else, in that we all love mazes.

dansven: Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!

Not so sure, unless he was more messed up in his head than is already generally accepted. He and Danny in particular were blazing new and fertile ground, they were moving further away from their original blues rock core, and already had an additional project in the works. Not sure why he would have felt compelled to align with strangers for backing when he had aces in the hand. To me it smacks of him further losing his bearings - and/or his mind.

dansven: The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a myth outright, but I too feel it is overblown and exaggerated to cover for the excesses that predate it. How much it really made a difference in the end is not easy to determine, due to conflicting reports and assessments from those nearer the scene (and who may have had vested interests for seeing it one way or another). But there's always more to practically every story than what first meets the eye, especially a rather simplistic "easy out' one like the Munich incident.

dansven: If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great!

Well this may surprise you my friend, but I agree. But we also have to keep in mind the band was in a state of flux, and attempting to find a new, lesser green identity (in as much as that was possible). When any outfit loses its founder and guiding hand in the way they did Peter, it is jarring to say the least. There was a time back then many doubted the Mac could carry on, including the surviving members of the band. It was all touch and go there for a while; that should come as no surprise.

Ps
 

Try ABB's Decade Of Hits -- that one compilation alone will tell you whether you are a newfound believer. It is an ideal starting point. And yes, report back after doing so. Inquiring minds would love to know your take. ;)