What's good for Christine is bad for Lindsey?
 

When Lindsey left the band before the Tango tour, it caused a major controversy. To this day, people on this forum still slam him for it.

BUT:

How come when Christine recorded a bunch of songs for Time and declined to tour it was OK with the fans?

How come when Christine stopped the Dance tour short after 40 dates she didn't incur the same kind of criticism Lindsey did?

I think there are two big reasons.

Number one being that Fleetwood Mac didn't tour to support 'Time'... they toured prior to its release. And Christine's involvement with the album was always done with the knowledge that she wouldn't be involved with any tours that may have followed, anyway. So there were no false expectations there.

Number two being that the 'Dance' tour was only ever scheduled for 45-dates, as the band had left it open for them to decide if they wanted to continue beyond that or not.
No additional dates had been booked before Christine decided that 45-dates were plenty for her.

When Lindsey left the band before the Tango tour, it caused a major controversy. To this day, people on this forum still slam him for it.

BUT:

How come when Christine recorded a bunch of songs for Time and declined to tour it was OK with the fans?

How come when Christine stopped the Dance tour short after 40 dates she didn't incur the same kind of criticism Lindsey did?
********

I think when LB left, the way he went about it was sort of 'yeah I'll do it, make all the plans'-- then 'no, I won't, I'm leaving, goodbye'. He sort of pulled the rug out from under them. Plus they were all in very different places in thier lives than they are now-- and hence the response was a little crazier.

I don't think it was 'OK w/ the fans' when Chris didn't tour w/ Fmac after Time. Did you go to any of those shows? I went to two, and boy, it was sad. The crowds were, for the most part, pretty apathetic. Watching Mick do his crazy drum solo in front of 20 bored people was agonizing. I loved seeing John and Mick, and frankly the band was pretty good, but I still felt embarrassed for them. Chris, contractually, HAD to contribute to Time-- even though she didn't really want to-- but she did not have to tour.

None of us know really what response the band had when C said she wouldn't tour anymore. Stevie has said they did try to convince her to stay; LB has said he understood her need to leave and was an ally. If she had stuff going on in her personal life, then I think M and J would have to be supportive enough to say 'go do what you need to do, you've been devoting your life to us for 30 years.' Also, she *had done* 40 dates. That's no small potatoes. At the Tango time, LB didn't do any dates at all.

JMHO.

-Lis

>>>I don't think it was 'OK w/ the fans' when Chris didn't tour w/ Fmac after Time. Did you go to any of those shows? >>

I'm correcting myself. :-) I forgot, they did tour before and not after Time.

-Lis

Lis, it was one of the worse concerts I've attended. For all I know, the band might have even been tighter than when they toured for Behind the Mask, which as I recall was a bit loose. But the lack of energy on stage and the very poorly thought-out set list was awful. Not to mention, FM took the stage after REO Speedwagon, which, say whatever you want about them, had torn up the place with their energy and a fun-loving show.

But she did record songs for a band that was on tour but with which she didn't want to tour. Still weird, no?

"he said she said".. umm I don't like to pretend I actually know which version is right, but Lindsey's version of this is that he didn't want to tour from the start on, but felt coerced by the band to do so. That they convinced him to do otherwise. It wasn't a "yeah, great, of course I'll tour with you" song from the beginning of recording TITN.

I agree with that one.

could it be... uh.. I'm going to get slammed for this one.. that the band knew that Lindsey's gap was going to be a bigger one to fill than Christine's now?

Oh, it was definitely weird... and yet another reason why I wasn't surprised that they didn't go the same route with 'Say You Will.'

And yet, Christine's involvement on the 'Time' album was more along the lines of a "blending," and not as dominant (I'm not using that word in a bad way) as Lindsey's involvement on 'Tango.'
Her songs were basically recorded solo, and then the band overdubbed their backing vocals, drums and bass.
Also, her backing vocals (but not keys) were added to the other members' material only after it was decided to add her songs.
It was a very weird approach (but then, this IS Fleetwood Mac we're talking about!), but it was done with the knowledge that Christine's involvement would be strictly limited to those 5 tracks on the album, and nothing more.

We also have to remember that, when Christine retired from the road in 1990, she made it clear that she had every intention of continuing to record with Fleetwood Mac, if they wanted her there. So, again, there were no false expectations for her bandmates or the fans.

Not looking to question Lindsey's motives and/or personal situation in 1987, but perhaps if he hadn't hedged about touring, then expectations wouldn't have been there, and there would have been less hard feelings.
His heart wasn't in it, but his waffling allowed there to be a level of optimism. And when he did say yes, and a tour was booked, matters became all the worse.

Anyway, rightly or wrongly, these are the reasons why I believe Christine doesn't get a lot of flak.

I think part of it has do with the fact that TITN turned out to be a very successful album. I think the band wanted to tour to sustain the success of the album. By the time "Time" rolled around, the party was over for FM.

As for the Dance, she only agreed to the first 45 dates. And I think they had to beg and plead for her to do that much.

You're right..you ARE going to get slammed for that one!..lol!...but really..definitely not the reason!..in fact there IS a gap left in Fleetwood Mac at the moment,and it's quite BIG. I'm so glad Christine's album is coming out soon,I miss her in the band.Also,I don't think the band suffered at all by Lindsey's leaving.Rick and Billy were great additions.

Really? I've never heard this before. Did she not want to contribute to Time?

Christine had been very slowly trying to pull out of the band for years. I think the gradual *plunk* *plunk* of hints sort of softened the blow when she finally did it. She stopped The Dance tour, but since it had been a "reunion tour" anyway, I don't think most folks really expected it to go on forever. While I think Lindsey was kind of slowly trying to pull out of the band in the latter 80s (and the band knew he didn't want to tour), when he committed to Tango in such a big way as producer, etc., I think it put fears in the fanbase to rest that he was going to go soon. So then when he did go, it seemed more abrupt. And it was in the midst of them still being considered an important band on MTV, radio, etc., so it was a bigger splash in that way.

I think that's very true too. Plus, I think fans sometimes take their cues about the vehemence of their own reactions on the basis of how some in the band react to things.

>.>>But she did record songs for a band that was on tour but with which she didn't want to tour. Still weird, no?>>>

Yeah, that was weird, but again--she *had* to do the album.

>>>Lindsey's version of this is that he didn't want to tour from the start on, but felt coerced by the band to do so. That they convinced him to do otherwise. It wasn't a "yeah, great, of course I'll tour with you" song from the beginning of recording TITN.>>


This is absolutely true. The rest of the group probably didn't think he'd actually take the plunge and leave, and were floored when he did.

--Lis

I agree with Johnny Stew and ThePenguin admin. I think the way how LB left the band was far different from Christine's.

But I didn't know about the contractual situation of Chris. I knew she said "count on me" on recording sessions (according to Mick, at least). But I didn't know if she has a deal with the band, the record company or something like that.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't recall Christine being contractually obligated to contribute to 'Time.'

I think she felt "obligated" out of loyalty, but no other reason.

I know I read somewhere that she was contractually obligated to do that album. I'll have to dig around to try and find that interview.

-Lis

I thought Christine was asked by Mick at the last minute to contribute some songs to the Time album. Wasn't there an album called "Another Link In The Chain" which didn't include Christine at all? I seem to remember somebody posting something like this a while ago.

Yeah, from everything I've read/heard, Fleetwood Mac had submitted a completed album entitled Another Link In The Chain and it was rejected. Mick then contacted Christine...the rest is history.

I guess I'm one of the handful of folks who DIDN'T cringe at seeing the band in 1994...I thought they were great. Granted, it was a bit weird seeing them with new folks...but, then back in 75 it was weird for the first few shows not seeing Bob Welch, too. I just figured I was going to have to get used to new people in the band again. No biggie, no comparisons...just another incarnation to learn to love.

OK!!! I found it: she said in a 1997 Mojo article--

Also appearing on Time was one Christine McVie, who politely notes that her appearance, "was something that I had not volunteered to do; it was contractual. I don't like to harp on it much, but I thought the music was starting to get a little strange, the choices a little funny. I wasn't really enjoying that particular incarnation of the band, and I left." At that point, the former Miss Perfect's plans included moving back to England-- she's had a home in Kent for five years-- and pursuing the hobbies one would expect of a former member of Chicken Shack: "Painting, illustration, I'd like to write a book, I'd like to go to cooking school. I know it sounds utterly absurd, but I really love cooking and I take it very seriously." Plus a solo album "sometime beofre the next millenium."

-Lis

So, in reading the quote above, I assume Christine's absence was WB's #1 reason for rejecting the Another Link In The Chain album.

In reading some of the litigation things with the Beach Boys and who had rights to use the name, the "three member rule" was brought up. So, when Mike Love, Bruce Johnston got David Marks to join back up with them, they had three "official" Beach Boys members and won their litigation against Alan Jardine for using the "Beach Boys" name...even though Alan had the traditional Beach Boys' touring session players backing him. After Mike Love won the case, David Marks left the band, so NOW, the Beach Boys only real existing members are Mike Love & Bruce Johnston...and Bruce wasn't even an original member (granted, 2 of the Wilson brothers are now gone).

So, I wonder, if WB's either told Mick & John that they'd have to at least get Christine back in the fold or else they couldn't use the name "Fleetwood Mac".

Wow, that's news to me. Thanks for digging that out Lis.

No problem. I knew she said that, but thought I'd be looking for the article for hours. Since age 11 I've had an obsessive memory when it comes to FM quotes LOL. The problem is finding the actual source!

-Lis

Yeah, thanks. :) That's something I never knew. I just always thought she contributed those songs as a favor to Mick. Now, I know she likes to cook, but I never knew she was thinking of writing a book.

A cook book? :shrug:

A book about how Lindsey leaving was bull****! :]

As I recall, REO closed the show I saw. I'm fairly certain about this. The lineup was Pat Benatar, then FM, then REO. I remember overhearing several people around me bitching about the lineup. Then, Bekka did "Dreaming the Dream", and won me over. :xoxo:

I'd also like to thank you, Lis, for finding Christine's quote on the subject.
That was totally news to me, too... I always thought she did it entirely out of loyalty, and as a "favor" in many ways.

Wow.
That adds even more meaning to the themes in Christine's 'Time' songs.

REO and FM alternated on the headlining slot. This is something REO also has been doing with Styx, Foreigner, and whatever other lame band they happen to be touring with at any given time.

Interesting, Lis. Thanks for sharing that.

So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?

Help me out here, folks, because I think there's some kind of double standard going on.

I think the difference is that Lindsey at one point agreed to the tour and then changed his mind. Christine did what she said she would and then stopped.

However I don't think anyone should critisize Lindsey for not touring at that point - he just couldn't do it anymore. Just like Christine couldn't face any more tours and so didn't take part in SYW. Lindsey eventually came back into the fold - when the time was right. Maybe the time will be right for Christine one day (I normally wake up about this point)

They should be allowed to make decisions based on what is right for them at a point in their lives without people having a go at them.

I would prefer all five in the band recording and touring - but only if it's really what they want and they're not being forced into it.

Gail

>>>>Interesting, Lis. Thanks for sharing that.>>>>

You're welcome!

>>>>So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?Help me out here, folks, because I think there's some kind of double standard going on.>>>>

I'm not sure it's a double standaard as much as it was just very different circumstances. think it seemed more of a 'betrayal' because LB was the 1st to leave that magical Mick/John/Chris/Lindsey/Stevie line-up. Once Chris left, LB and Stevie were already gone....so I guess it just wasn't quite as traumatic.

-Lis

I think the main difference is their ages. Lindsey was how old in 1987? 38?
Christine is 60! That's a BIG difference in putting up with being on the road. I think Lindsey was being selfish(not that that's necessarily wrong), whereas Chris has just decided it's time to bow out gracefully. I'd give anything for her to change her mind, but I respect her decision. What if you were 60, and had 25 million in the bank. What would you do?

I don't know. Sure, fans are ready to accept a "retirement" at 60 moreso than at an earlier age, but I seriously doubt that it was simply "the road" that made the decision for either one of them anyway. It played a role for each because the road represents time away from being able to focus on something besides the band. But I think they both made their choices on far more than that, including personal issues, relationships, other interests & band burnout.

It is a selfish choice on some level - one that was going to disappoint others - but it's the kind of selfish choice that I don't think anyone should be denied or have held against them. I don't doubt it was a difficult decision for both. But it was the best choice for his and her life at the time that each made the choice. They're real people with other things to tend to in life and they know what they're ready to deal with at any given point far better than we do. In those circumstances, thirty-eight or sixty is neither here nor there.

By the way, I don't think I've ever read this 1997 Mojo article. Any chance you might be able to post it in the BLA? :)

I can honestly say I didn't hold it against LB for exiting. I remember being really sad.

At the same time, I was also curious to see what CM and SN could do without him after so many years. I think it was very a respectable job covering the TITN tour on such short notice. I also thought the BTM tour was very good. I know many people did not think so, but I thought that FMac put on a very good show w/o Lindsey. The crowd in Cleveland (where i lived at the time) was going bezerk!

I remember when they opened with BTM the crowd errupted. CMcVie stole that show. Stevie looked a little out of it but she was still solid and the RV and BB were explosive at times.

Age shmage, dude. There's plenty of people touring into their 70s these days. How old is BB King? 80? Etta James? 75? Keith Richards? 112?

And as for the selfish commment, I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

If bowing out gracefully entails reluctantly contributing songs that you are contractually obligated to provide and then grousing about it, I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what that means. If selfish is putting your own solo career on hold to bail out a bankrupt drummer, then we'll have to disagree on that too.

Yeah but I think Christine and Stevie said they would still record but not tour again. This was well before Time. LB on the other hand said he would tour then backed out. That's kind of what got the promoters and band mgmt a little miffed.

But like I said I respected his decision not to tour. His life was pretty messy back then. I was sad because he is amazing, and his work on TITN w/ Christine was amazing work!

Wayne Shorter sax - just saw him 2 weeks ago in Los Angeles, he is 71. Blew me away!

>>>>By the way, I don't think I've ever read this 1997 Mojo article. Any chance you might be able to post it in the BLA? >>>>

I may get around to that eventually. :-) Right now I'm buried in info regarding the Chris/John bio I'm working on...but maybe after that I can transcribe it for the BLA.

-Lis

You're just trying to start the Christine Forum's very first thread war, aren't ya? ;) :laugh:

As has been said, it was two different sets of circumstances.
Lindsey quit the band in 1987 after a tour was booked. Christine, on the other hand, made it clear from the outset that she wouldn't be touring after 1990, only recording with the band.

There were no expectations that Christine would tour... however, there were expectations that Lindsey would tour. So feelings were hurt, and folks (fans as well as his bandmates) felt letdown or "betrayed."

If Lindsey had given a firm "no" right from the start, and made it abundantly clear that he was not going to tour for the album, and if he hadn't allowed dates to be booked, then I'm sure it would have been completely different.
Yes, fans would have still been disappointed he left the band, just as they're greatly disappointed Christine has left, but there wouldn't be that vibe of "broken promises."

I'm not criticizing Lindsey in the least, and you're right, it was a very selfless thing he did by folding his solo album into 'Tango,' and giving up his time to tackle the producer/arranger duties. And as far as I'm concerned it's all water under the bridge, but since you're asking why there's a different reaction from many of the fans in regards to Lindsey not touring and Christine not touring, these are the reasons as I see them. :)

Well said Brian. Plus, is no one willing to give Stevie the credit for returning to FM at all when she clearly did not have to. I mean that was as big of a "sacrifice" as LB turning his solo record over :shrug:

Dude, we're talking Christine now. Get with the program... :)

Besides, in 1987 a solo Lindsey album would have done well. Keep in mind he had fairly big hit with the Go Insane single.

But we're talking about Christine anyway.

It would have been somewhat different, but I tend to think that allegations of betrayal would still have been tossed around mostly because it was a product of where they were in their lives back then. And the pressures they were under, and the pressures they were putting on each other back then. If any of it happened now, when all of them are more clear-thinking and level-headed, it would be different. I don't think the band would handle it the same way. Among other things, I don't think they would relentlessly pressure Lindsey to tour when he clearly didn't want to, leading him to a reluctant decision that he soon realized he really couldn't handle and shouldn't have made.

There are a few vocal people who view Lindsey very harshly still. But I don't know how many really do. I think most people are actually able to look at it in a pretty human way. I can't really imagine looking at Christine's departure harshly either.