Anyone Else...
 

reluctant to keep following Lindsey as an artist following Ken Callait's book?

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I've been lurking here the last couple of months but never bothered to register till now. As you can tell from my name I'm a huge fan of the Peter Green Era.

I used to be dismissive of the Rumours lineup years ago. Cause my musical tastes tended to be more Alternative, Post Punk Art rock stuff like My Bloody Valentine, Roxy Music, X, Public Image Limited. And then years ago I got into Power Pop like Big Star Raspberries and The Beach Boys.

It wasnt until hearing Tusk I became a fan of the Stevie Lindsey lineup. I can appreciate Rumours and self-titled album now. Although I'm majorly burnt out on those two because of radio, grocery stores playing them to death. And I loved Lindsey's solo stuff.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying. I read Carol Anne's book and thought it had too many holes in it for her accusations of Lindsey's to be true. Then reading Ken's book, he talks about Lindsey getting mad and choking him. He also discusses how another girlfriend beside Carol accused Lindsey of hitting her.

To be fair I guess, Lindsey was doing lots of coke at that time into the 80's. From what I've seen with my family members abuse. coke can ramp you up. Make you irritable easily and more violence prone. And in Anne Heche's book she never mentioned any physical abuse form Lindsey. So I'm pretty sure he was clean the time he dated Anne.

So, a lot of the physical abuse could have been induced from drugs. I just dont know anymore. If Ken's saying abuse took place, I'm inclined to believe him. I dont think he has any reason to lie.

I'm lost. Even if it was brought on by drug abuse, I'm not sure I can behind someone who hits women. I understand musicians are human. I look the other way most of the time when it comes to minor indiscretions. I love Bob Dylan and Bruce, but they are/were huge womanizers. I dont care about that cause most musicians are.

The only thing that can stop me from being a fan is spousal/child abuse. I stopped liking John Lennon when I found out he severely verbally abused Julian.

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

Personally, I think Lindsey is a changed man these days. He's settled down, married, had children, which I think has mellowed him. I also think he's been through a lot of therapy (just an idea I get from some of the things he says), that most likely addressed his rage issues.

There is never an excuse for abuse, but it was a much different time for Lindsey in the late 70s/early 80s. He had extreme pressure on him to produce hits for Fleetwood Mac, there was a lot of personal turmoil from the imploding of all of the relationships in the band, he was drinking a lot and doing cocaine. I'm sure all of that exacerbated any rage issues he already had. I think he's done a lot of work on himself since then to overcome these issues and change. He certainly seems happy these days and his family life seems to have been very calming and good for him.

GreenMagic - sorry if I sound unwelcoming to a new member, but I have to ask if you joined The Ledge merely to whip up another Lindsey bashing????

Did you think we didn't already know about this stuff? That it hasn't already been discussed to death?

Anyway, you will see from Lindsey's forum that his fans remain true and loyal to him - 'nuff said.

If the allegations are true, then I do not respect that version of Lindsey as a man, but that isn't going to stop me from respecting him as an artist. And likewise, I respect him as a person presently (as much as one can respect someone they have never met) because I think that it's clear that whatever happened in the past is in fact in the past, and he's definitely a very different character who has done a lot of work on themselves.

So, in short, no, it isn't going to stop me from following him. I'm not going to excuse his past behavior, but I do not think the Lindsey of yore is the Lindsey of today (no matter how little Stevie thinks they've both changed :lol:) so it doesn't affect my perception of his work.

Don't forget, Mick Fleetwood's book also chronicles Lindsey's violence towards women... even John McVie spoke of these incidents in on camera interviews. So it's not just Carol Ann Harris, Ken Caillat, and Stevie Nicks who have spoken openly about this subject.

For what it's worth, I think Lindsey is still very high strung, but it would seem his violent outbursts have ended. I'd point to his no longer using hardcore drugs, maturing, and becoming a husband and father. I don't think he's that insecure, tortured young man anymore. If I believed for an instant Lindsey was a wifebeater, I can assure you I would not spend my money on his albums or concerts.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that Lindsey was abusive to Carol Ann and probably others. He's probably reformed after getting off drugs and doing a lot of therapy, but that doesn't undo the past, and I absolutely find it troubling.

Personally, I can separate that from the music and consider myself a huge fan. I understand why others may not. This one is a personal call.

@McTrouble -

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm a big fan of Lindsey's. I just wanted some perspectives, because I was feeling uneasy about listening to his music after learning that.

I just read Ken's book day before yesterday. So it came as an honest shock. I've never read Fleetwood's book as it is out of print. Also, I've never seen any interview with John McVie or Stevie discussing it.

I just needed some opinions. I usually look the other way when artists make minor errors in their life. But physical abuse isnt minor, it's wrong. I guess I can forgive him that since drugs were influencing his bad behavior. And he seems to have gotten clean and have therapy.

But if it ever emerges one day he's pulling this stuff with his wife, count me out as a fan. I do think he cleaned his act up.

So you all's opinions were helpful. And that in essence is what I was looking for. :woohoo:

At this point, all we really have are anecdotes, albeit, a number of anecdotes from a number of different people that, in their totality, appear to paint the picture of a man with anger management issues and a history of physical violence. However, there is no actual, tangible evidence that any of these episodes really occurred. The listener/reader is left to his/her own conclusions based on the information presented.

I would like to think that Lindsey's infractions have been grossly exaggerated for the sake of selling books. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man. And the mental image of scrawny Lindsey chasing (as per Mick's book) Stevie around the block, a platformed blur of hair and chiffon, seems downright comical despite the very serious undertones of the altercation. Perhaps we would be less forgiving if these stories were being told about a much larger, stronger, intimidating man? When I picture Lindsey fighting physically, I can't help but assume that he would make lobster claws with his hands and try to peck his opponent into submission.

I don't think there has been an interview with John McVie discussing it. On Rock Family tree, John made a strangling gesture right in the context of Stevie saying she ran across the room and grabbed Lindsey. I think he might have been referring to what Stevie said she did.

Stevie has discussed getting into an argument with Lindsey when he said he was leaving FM. The whole band was inside Christine's house. She says she jumped up and grabbed him and then he chased her outside, threw her over the hood of a car and she thought he was going to kill her, until their managers separated them. Based on the chronology in the interview the band did in the nineties, John seemed to have caught the first part of the fight and it looks like he was talking about Stevie grabbing Lindsey when he described someone (John doesn't say who) making a strangling gesture.

Rock Family Trees is on Youtube.

Stevie says: -

John McVie:

Johh makes that gesture right after Stevie talks about grabbing Lindsey. Stevie finishes her story:

Then John mentions Lindsey for the first time while describing the fight. He says, he told Lindsey, "Why don't you just leave?" The joke being that he meant for Lindsey to leave the room, not the band.


Michele

Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!:lol::wavey::xoxo:

Stevie herself is tiny - 5'1", as I'm sure we all know. So the fact that Lindsey is slender/lean doesn't do anything water down the allegations, in my mind. Lindsey's much larger than she.... but regardless, that's all beside the point, anyway. It doesn't matter how large the attacker is... the point is, they are attacking someone. I personally don't think there's anything necessarily comical about ANYONE seriously seeking out to harm someone physically (or mentally, emotionally, etc for that matter), whether they're a 12 year old girl or a 30 year old man.

And if he had the audacity, the way it's described, Ken and Lindsey weren't next to each other. It wasn't like Lindsey made a quick gesture, a sudden strangle. Lindsey got irate because Ken did what Lindsey asked him to do and erased a tape and, upon learning this, then came from another room to choke Ken. It sounds like Ken had plenty of time to stop or avoid him if it was really a physical assault.

Michele

The only thing that troubles me about the accusations is Mick and John knowing about it.

I understand to maintain peace in a band you stay out of each other's personal lives. (EX: The Beatles never vocally passed Judgement on John when he divorced Cyn. Even though privately they thought it was crappy the way he handled the divorce)

Hypothetically, if I am in a band, I stay out of a fellow band mate's perosnal life. But when I see or get strong evidence of him being physically abusive to people, there will be a talk or something worse.

Josh Homme from Queens Of The Stone Age kicked out a long time band member when he had irefutable evidence the dude was beating his girlfriend. Josh gets the highest respect from me for doing that. I understand being loyalty to friends.

But loyalty can only go so far if the person is harming other people. As stated previously, I would've confront Lindsey about it. Told him to clean his act up or he's history.

I understand John and Mick need to make a living. But your financial needs should never overtake your conscience. So if they really did know about Lindsey pulling that stuff at the time, they lose a lot of respect from me.

To reassure, I'm fine with Lindsey now. He's clean and worked on himself. Based on that effort I can forgive him for past transgressions. But Mick and John who are the big decision makers in the band abetting Lindsey's behavior at the time? I'm not so sure...

I'm not sure Mick and John especially were really in the position to be calling anyone out on anything at that point. Haven't we heard from a number of sources that John McVie was a mean drunk?

John yes, but no one has ever indicated that Mick has ever done anything physical at all. I get the impression that Mick was a big, gangly teddy bear.

Michele

Oh, I haven't heard that Mick was ever physical to anyone. Just that he wasn't a paragon of virtue. He was hooked on coke and regularly cheated on his wife, including with Stevie. Lindsey's also said some vaguely passive aggressive comments about Mick's parenting.

Not saying that any of those things are on par with abuse, for the record.

Dave, it appeared to me like we had one of these newbies who join up just to cause trouble.

Really, is it a good thing to join a forum with a negative as first post?

Mc -

I think you understand now that my intention was not to as you said "stir up" trouble.

I actually was going to do in your words "Positive" first post regarding Tusk.

But since I literally only read Ken's book a day and a half ago, this topic has been weighing on my mind. And I wanted feedback.

I did anticipate people saying Mick and John felt they were in no position to judge. I can understand even if I disagree.

The reason I disagree is their substance abuse never caused consistant and overly physical harm as a result. And Lindsey's at the time I stress, did.

They basically could have said "We dont act like sociopaths everytime we get under the influence, but you do Lindsey. Drugs make you a physical threat and we dont have that issue. Work on yourself or it's adios."

Pretty simple and to the point. But I don't know 100% if they were fully aware of his violent behavior under the influence.

So Mc doesnt misunderstand, I've become ok with Lindsey. After thinking about the fact he cleaned up and got therapy. But as stated previously if Mick and John had an idea how dangerous Lindsey was under influence and looked the other way, then I'll be disappointed. I'm already disappointed with them for slamming Stevie for not wanting to do another cash grabs oldies tour so soon.

She isn't their mother and they need to learn how to take care of themselves without expecting other people to do it. BTW I'll put up a more upbeat thread soon. Just busy jobhunting since I got laid off two days ago.

Nah it's all about the music for me. I mean, sure it'd be great if they were nice people but as long as they make good music and I stay away from the tabloid stuff, I'm OK with that. :)

John

I kinda agree, but I admit Ken's book did change my mind about him as a person. At first I thought Ken was spitting sour grapes because Lindsey didn't get personally involved in supporting the book. After hearing Ken's ongoing comments about him, and learning about the things he was accused of by ex girlfriends, I decided where there's smoke there's fire.

I use to have a pic of Linds rollin a doob as my avatar. I couldn't keep it after reading about his abusive behavior and how drugs might have contributed it. It's also not easy to hear lyrics like this on his latest album: "I've got a pulicist who covers up the avarice where I put my fist," without wondering if he really has changed, like his loyal fans want to believe, or if he's surrounded by enablers with a financial stake in his image and career? :shrug:

No offense to his fans. :wavey:

"Let he who is without sin.........."

This.

We all go through our lives with personal challenges to overcome. As we work our way to (hopefully) overcoming these challenges, we are all capable of actions we are never proud of. Lindsey suffers the misfortune of his personal struggles being cast publicly; something most of us will never endure.

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.

I don't care if he has changed or not. I guess I'd have to know what he did to think that he should have.

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele

This.

This.

...and This.


That sums up my feelings, right there.

-----------------------------

But in answer to the original question, here's my short answer.

It's been 30 years. How long do we need to vilify him? Does his past make me look at his music in a negative way? No. Quite the opposite. I know he's speaking from personal experience when he sings about sanity, control/loss of control, fear, growth, overcoming demons, karma, moving on and trying to be a better person or seeking out the good in things. All of it. He lays it all out there. It makes me appreciate his music more, and I genuinely like the man he's become. I feel bad for all he's been through ( and put others through ), but no way will I hold his very distant past aginst him. I wouldn't with anyone else either.


Here's my long answer, for anyone interested...

Lindsey, as well as the rest of the band, and CAH were all really messed up back then. They all were abusing drugs and/or alcohol, and living a very crazy lifestyle.. That affects different people differently, of course. Lindsey got violent. Apparently, so did Stevie sometimes. Was it OK for her to lash out and attack Lindsey, as she herself has admitted to ( see Michelle's post re. the choking incident )?? Yes, I know , obviusly she couldn't do the kind of physical damage Lindsey could, but was it OK? Chris was scared of John, too. There was plenty of bad behavior from all of them, yet, every few months, the only one we talk about is Lindsey because he's been the subject of a few books. It wasn't OK for anyone - and certainly not OK for Lindsey - to become abusive. And while being under the influence doesn't excuse his/their behavior, it does explain it to some degree. The thing that bothers me is that all this happened 30 years ago! Clearly, he has changed. I don't for a minute think he is the same man today. As was mentioned above, Anne Heche had no problems with him. Neither has his wife and kids as far as we know, and there's no reason to think otherwise. So, I guess, for me, when you ask should what a person did 30 years ago, while under the influence, effect how you feel about him today? My answer is, if you think he's the same person, or you believe a person should carry their sins around until the day they die, then yes. Avoid Lindsey and avoid his music. You won't enjoy either. Celebrities today, atheletes and TV stars , musicians, are in the news all the time for abusing girlfriends, wives and kids. Society gets over most of it really fast. I don't understand that. Rob Lowe videoed himself having sex with a teenaged girl, and now all is forgiven. I recall a very messed up David Hasselhoff a few years ago going nuts on the phone with his young daughter. Michael Jackson may have molested young boys, and definitelty held his own kids out of windows of highrises, and still many people are OK with that. He's a hero and his music is great they say. Do I even have to mention Chris Brown? And don't even get me started on how quick the average football fan looks the other way when someone yells rape or abuse. And these are all a lot more recent than Lindsey's issues. Yes, I know what they did has nothing to do with what he did, but I question why some people get a free pass and others have to carry an albatross around for 3 decades! Lindsey has clearly taken steps to become a better person. The people in his life adore him - his nieces, his kids, his wife, his friends...they don't strike me as people covering up for his ongoing nasty ways. They strike me as people that see a good man. A man who has changed drastically since getting control of whatever addictions and/or mental health issues he had, and of course, from lots and lots of therapy.

glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.

How Lindsey behaves in his private life is truly none of my business. I'm either going to like a song of his or I'm not.
Many of you have referenced as fact that Lindsey has had years of therapy and I ask, how do you know this? I've not read any interviews with him where he talks about this.

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.

For me, I don't see the accusations as unrelated. Conte, Ken and CAH all know each other and Ken has talked to both since CAH wrote her book, so I really don't see them as independent allegations. I think they're related and I view it as that game of "telephone" where you whisper to each other in a relay and the story and details that come out at the end of the game are not at all what they were to begin with.

I do think that Ken mentioned Richard a lot. And with all the years that Richard and Lindsey spent living and working together, even if they're not together now, I would give credence to what Richard has to say. If Richard supports Ken's book, as Ken suggests Richard does, I'd take that as a form of confirmation.

Michele

I used to look at it like the telephone thing, too. Then I talked to a few people who seem to think these things are true and that Lindsey still has issues. Sure, they may all have an axe to grind. I keep that under consideration. Hopefully he has changed. I couldn't and wouldn't support someone who abuses women.

Ken hinting around at Richard's support of the book, that has a lot to do with me changing my mind. To my knowledge Richard hasn't said anything, though. Ken has told people LB hasn't spoken to Rich in years, so I wonder why.:confused:

Great post. :thumbsup:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this touchy subject. I like knowing how others view it, since I'm not sure I have all the facts. You've certainly given it a lot of thought and consideration. :wavey:

:)

The way you and others have described the audience at that show, I hardly blame him.

See, I just don't think pleasant public behavior means much of anything. I don't think he was Atila The Hun back then either, but he might have been. If so, I bet he had a lot of incredibly nice and sweet public (and private) moments too, even while being abusive at other times.

Abuse is a hard thing to parse. I remember when Mommie Dearest came out, I was really skeptical of Christina Crawford. Whether her accusations were true or not, she benefitted a lot from them. On the other hand, when Bing Crosby's sons from his first marriage came out about him, I really resented it when Bob Hope (a beloved icon) trashed them and said Bing was a great dad. Bob and Bing may have been the closest of friends and I'm sure he was the kindest of buddies, but Bob had no way of knowing what was going on behind Bing's closed doors.

Michele

i read your review about this and i still have trouble understanding how something like this could make you so angry.:confused::confused:

f-word? middle finger? by a performer that - from what you and others described - felt he was being disrespected by the drunk audience members that were in the club to get wasted and not to listen to the show? don't you all have a whole another thread discussing how audience members' drunkenness at concerts is ruining shows for you?

now if you told me he jumped into the audience and beat somebody up, i'd say that would fit with the discussion of abuse allegations in this thread. but throwing f-words, i'm sorry - i don't see it. :shrug:

KC has told me on twitter in a response to my direct question that he has not have contact with LB for years - other than that award ceremony at the beginning of last year.

completely agree. this is just how i feel. i don't have enough information to know what is true about the past or the present - and it doesn't seem any of us do.

I read the reviews and I got mad at the audience.

Michele

I'd have to read my own reviews and see if it was the UTS tour or the GOS tour, but Richard was in the audience two nights in the row in Vegas. Both Richard and Steve were. Lindsey had talked to them before the show, obviously.

Ray Lindsay is also a good one. Whether he and Lindsey are friends now or not, I think I'd have to give a great deal of deference to what he said. Well, if Ray says it himself. Ken saying Lindsey didn't pay Ray doesn't make me believe that.

Michele

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Can't say I agree with your lyric interpretation. Your conclusions are reasonable if that's what you believe he's talking about. :D

Not sure what SNL, or lacking a high profile has to do with anything. Non celebrities have enablers looking the other way all the time when it works in the enablers best interest.


:thumbsup:

:)

i think there's even a video on youtube - he introduced them from the stage and said they are to blame he's here now / called them his partners in crime or something like that.

i thought Ken said that about Richard, not Ray Lindsay?

It is and I find your interpretation of One Take to be unique, to say the least.

Anyone can have enablers, family and friends, for instance, but you seemed to be linking the term to a bigger enterprise, especially with the One Take publicist line. It's like you were talking about the big FM in the seventies and not the man Lindsey is today who does not really have an image to protect.

Michele

Yes, but when the discussion began it was unclear whether it was Richard or Ray and then we all got into whether or not Richard was being paid by FM, rather than Lindsey anyway.

Michele

:eek::eek::eek: Well, well. :D Thanks for sharing.

Me either.

:wavey:

Everyone has an image to protect. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. ;)