off-topic-reply: Austrian charme (imitated by James Joyce)
 

„… and believe me, my dear Miss Beach,
to be,
your most obedient servant,
und indessen erlaube ich mir an Euch beide die
Versicherung meiner Hochachtung auszudrücken“
(James Joyce to Adrienne Monnier and Sylvia Beach, 3. September 1928).

Off topic too, just for fun
 

Graf Bobby?????:sorry:

Ich bitte dann um weitere weanerische Beiträge!

Oder eine Ãœbersetzung

http://www.wienerlieder.at/index.asp...m=0&ObjID=6882

Könnte Langhans dabei gewesen sein?

Rainer Langhans: Ich bin‘s. Die ersten 68 Jahre. Autobiographie
 

Two weeks ago Rainer Langhans has published his autobiography. He mentions again Peter Green's visit at the HighFish / Hai-Fisch / Stoned-Shark-commune in March 1970.

Rainer Langhans: "Ich bin's - Die ersten 68 Jahre. Die Autobiographie"
256 pages & 16 pages photographs.
19,90 Euro
ISBN: 978-3-936738-34-6
Published: February 2008

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...VL._AA240_.jpg

Pages 114-116 of Langhans' Autobiography tell how Langhans and Obermaier have invited Greenie to their commune (Castle Kronwinkl near Landshut), how they spent some time together, that the communards met Greenie two weeks later twice in London and that Greenie had helped the communards to get in contact with the Rolling Stones.

Langhans tells that the members of Fleetwood Mac believe that the communards are guilty of Greenies mental breakdown.

(Don't forget to excuse my English. But I'm only used to read English but not to write in English. This time i made an exception, because i thought you're interested to read what is written in Langhans brandnew autobiography).

Popmuseum

Seems to be this one

http://www.meinestadt.de/eching-nied...s/pix?id=28607

I excuse your English, at leasr I'll do my very best to do so :D



Map


http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de...86002&t=h&z=14

Schloss Kronwinkl
 

"Schloss Kronwinkl" today:

Sonja Schön: Reise ins Mittelalter. Seit fast 1000 Jahren trotzt Schloss Kronwinkl der Grafen von Preysing den Stürmen der Zeit.

Thanks Popmuseum, I read you loud and clear....:-)

/z

I believe John McVie has expressed a desire to find the people who did this to Peter. Perhaps to ask them why they did it. . . . .What exactly was in the stuff. . . .And to express to them personally his disappointment and anger at their behavior. :nod:

"The man had so much talent that was lost because of those people and i despise them for that. so if they ever see this: "don't ever cross my path". i'm very serious (about this)."

John McVie (Fleetwood Mac - The Mick Fleetwood Story. DVD).

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...PL._AA240_.jpg

Apartment to share
 

Your English is perfect, just translate High-Fish-Commune by Steckerlfisch-WG!

:laugh: :)

The Lost Tapes
 

I think Martin Celmins mentions in his book - and Peter Green himself - certainly - mentions in The Man of The World DVD, that he left the "Munich Tape(s)" in Los Angeles with his ex-wife Jane Samuels.
Maybe she could be kindly asked to return them? :angel:

I don't know how to "quote" from more than one thread - but thanks to all our german and austrian friends and Fellow Ledgies for all their knowledge and information - and the time they take to translate!:thumbsup:

Ms Moose

Maybe someone who's able to write her a nice e-mail should ask her (kindly) :nod: (In English, not German). Thanks.

I notice the walking on eggshells approach when concerning Peter's ex-wife. From reading the 1999 Penguin Q&A with PG, up to that time he had never seen his daughter? Does anyone know if this has changed?

Jeremy Spencer mentioned an incident involving Jane Samuels while pregnant in one of his propogandist CoG fliers. I don't have the Celmins biography so I'm in the dark.

oops...
 

... propagandist. (Spellcheck).

Did you ever get to spend time with Peter And Jane?
 

Dear Jeremy,

I don't know what the propaganda thing is all about, but I was always curious about what happened to you, danny and peter. I have much respect for what the three of you managed to put out in such a few short years. We are all curious about what you went through as well as what Peter went through. Maybe someday you can tell us of your travels as well as tour meetings over time with your other former bandmates. I know there are quite a few interested in Jane and Rosebud. I apologize if this seems like such a maudlin interest, but even those among us who are blues enthusiasts and devotees, there is a little bit of the fanatic in all us fans.

A fan and avid listener of your music,

vinnie c

It was my master plan...
 

I knew that would force you to make a comment. :laugh:

Seriously, I should know better. :sorry: At least the thread isn't dead anymore.

Great read, with input from JS himself and our German friends. Thanks to all who contributed.

It's okay...
 

No offence taken!
Anyway, that was certainly a nightmare experience for me, and I can't merely make acid the scapegoat! I hadn't taken any, yet that Munich 'incident' was still a night spent in hell.

It's a long story, Vinnie...
 

...but I did get to see Jane in a clothing store in LA in 1978. I wanted to walk up to her to extend my sympathies after the trauma, but something ... (pride?) stopped me. I regret it to this day.
I remember her pouring out her heart to Mick on the phone (the talkback was on), and it seemed she still loved Pete regardless.
Anyway, I'm so glad she got out of that dangerous relationship, though. She had become a Jewish Christian, so there must have been some dark resistance at work.

Its a long story
 

Dear Jeremy,

Have you considered writing a book? It would seem that you have many stories to tell, from your youth, to the FM days, to your world travels and experiences in India and the "sub continent" (wherever that is). I think it would be a fascinating insightful read.

P.S. Are you considering coming back to play in the US? (a new York area fan is hopeful)

cheers,

vinnie c

A Boston date would be great too! :)

John

Rainer Langhans' answers an e-mail-request on the Munich accident
 

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans

Hallo Rainer,
wieso hast Du Eure Münchner Begegnung mit Peter Green erst so spät bekannt gemacht, nachdem die Bluesszene viele Jahrzehnte lang gerätselt hat, wer denn das Münchner Paar war, das Greenie 1970 in eine Kommune abgeschleppt hat, die er als ein völlig anderer verlassen habe.

Viele Blueser interessiert, ob Du noch eine Kopie von Greenies Auftritt in der Highfish-Kommune hast? Denn er soll seine Kopie seiner Ex-Frau geschenkt haben, weshalb niemand weiss, wo der Mitschnitt heute ist.

Im Rolling Stone-Forum wurde vor langer Zeit besonders eifrig über Peter Greens Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 diskutiert (Link: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009)

Fragende Grüße
68

Rainer Langhans' answer

Hallo, ganz einfach: Erst als mir vor einigen Jahren der Rolling Stone mit der FM Coverstory in die Hände fiel, ging mir auf, daß die Verschwörungstheorie der Macs uns meinte. Daraufhin versuchten Christa und ich, eine Doku darüber zu machen. Das schreckte wohl die Macs so auf, daß sie eine machten, die die Gerüchte über uns erneut brachte. In unserer Doku wollten wir ergründen, warum und wie Peter sich entwickelte und wie die Band zu diesen Gerüchten kam. Von Euren Rätseleien wußte ich vorher nichts. Für mich war die Begegnung mit Peter damals eine ganz normale und schöne gewesen, wie mit vielen anderen Musikern auch. Man lädt sich ein, feiert und jammt miteinander, drugs incl. Wie mit Peter. Wir trafen ihn nach München noch zweimal in London und er war noch ganz der Superstar und Freund. Kein Drama usw. Umso verblüffender diese späte Legendenbildung der amerikanischen Macs. Man kann sich da manches denken ... Da Peters Vormund und die Macs eine Mitwirkung an unserer Doku verweigerten, überlegten wir, ob wir ein Spielfimprojekt darüber auf die Beine stellen. Aber nicht einfach, so eine Geschichte ... Das berühmte Band: Ja, ich glaube, daß wir unsere Revox-Maschine mitlaufen ließen. Wo das Band ist? Keine Ahnung. Gab es das wirklich? Interessant übrigens, wie lange Ihr gebraucht habt, um mich direkt zu fragen. Es scheint schöner zu sein, sich was auszudenken ... Und was Ihr Euch ausgedacht habt! Genau wie die Macs auch. Ich habe dann auf Euren Foren einiges gelesen...

Gruß
R. Langhans

Quote: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showpos...&postcount=393

The Munich Incident rather
 

Great to see you back at The Ledge, Popmuseum! Long time no see.

I admire your intention to get to the bottom of this Munich question! Is it possible for you to translate this correspondance into english? I have been struggling with it myself- but my command of german is so bad as I haven't studied it since school - which is quite some time ago :)

Ms Moose :angel:

translator results
 

Hello Rainer, why you made your citizen of Munich encounter with Peter Green first so late well known after the blues scene has many decades long gerätselt, who then the citizen of Munich was couple, that towed Greenie 1970 into a community, that he had left as a totally more other.

Does many Blueser interest whether you have another copy of Greenies entrance in the Highfish community? For it should have given its copy his former wife why no one knows, where the with cut is today.

In the Rolling Stone forum, Greens trauma night with German Kommunarden 1970 was discussed long time ago especially enthusiastically Peter (link: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009)

Asking greetings 68

Rainer Langhans' answer

Hello, very simply: First as me some years ago the Rolling Stone with the FM cover story into the hands fell, went me up that the conspiracy theory of the Macs meant us. Thereupon Christa and I tried to make a Doku about that. That startled probably the Macs so that they made one, that brought the rumors over us again. In our Doku, we wanted to fathom why and like Peter developed and like the volumes to these rumors came. Of your riddle eggs, I knew previously nothing. For me, the encounter with Peter had been at that time an entirely normal and beautiful, like with many other musicians also. One invites himself, celebrates and jammt together, drugs incl. How with Peter. We encountered was it to Munich yet twice in London and it yet entire the superstar and friend. No drama etc. All the more more stunning this late legend development of the American Macs. One can think himself there a lot... Because Peter guardian and the Macs denied a cooperation at our Doku, we considered whether we place a Spielfimprojekt about that on the legs. But not simply, so a story... The famous volume: Yes, I believe that we let run our Revox machine. Where is the volume? No idea. Was there that really? Interesting by the way how long needed your in order to ask me directly. It seems to be more beautifully, to contrive itself what... And what contrived your you! Exactly like the Macs also. I read then a few things on your forums...

Greeting R. Langhans

Thank you very much.

I'll give it a try but first I'll get me some coffee :D

As promised - I gave it a try.

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans #1
Hello Rainer, how come you didn't tell about your Munich encounter with Peter Green any sooner, since the blues scene was asking for many decades who in 1970 that Munich couple was, who took Greenie to their commune, which he is said to have left completely changed. A lotta Blues-fans are interested, if you got a copy of Greenies Jam-session at the Highfish-commune? Since he gave his copy to his ex-wife nobody knows, where the tape with his live-recording is today?

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans #2
Hello, it's very simple: It was some years ago when I read the "Rolling Stone" cover-story on Fleetwood Mac when I realised that Fleetwood Mac's conspiracy theory meant us. Thereupon Christa [Ritter] and I tried to make a doku on the Munich accident. That startled probably the Macs so they made a doku by themselves, which recurred the Munich rumors. In our doku, we wanted to fathom why and how Peter developed and how the band made up the Munich rumors. I didn't know you were puzzling about the Munich accident. For me, the encounter with Peter had been an entirely normal and beautiful, like with many other musicians too. You invite them, enjoy their company, jam together, drugs included as with Peter. After Munich we met him twice in London and he was the same superstar and friend as before. No bad scene etc. The more more stunning is the creation of legends by the later Fleetwood Mac. One can think a lot on this. Since Peter's guardian / custodian and Fleetwood Mac denied to cooperate with us on our doku, we considered to make a movie on the Munich accident. But that's not an easy thing to do.

The legendary recording: Yes, I believe that we were recording with our Revox reel tape recorder. Where the recording is? I got no idea. Was there a tape really? By the way it is interesting how long it took (you) to ask me directly. It seems to be more beautifully, to make something up ... And what you made up! The same like the Fleedwood Mac. I read a few things about it in your forums ...

Thanks PopM....

Very interesting reading

/z

You're welcome.

Hippy-hippy Shake....
 

Thank you very much for taking the time to translate, Popmuseum. The coffee seemed to work its magic:)
Rainer's answer takes a lot of air out of the myth of PG's "sudden personality change" - which is and has always been - unrealistic and unlikely.

It's very interesting that Rainer is indicating that a "trauma-story" has been cooked up by various members of Fleetwood Mac, roadies, media and so on, about how Peter Green came back from this Munich commune encounter, a totally changed person and so on. A very clear example of this is John McVie's anger with these german hippies in the Man of The World DVD. In the Peter Green biography Martin Celmins is sensibly trying to de-mystify the Munich encounter. In the biography Peter's own recollections are close to Rainers in that it didn't seem to be very traumatic to him (PG), on the contrary he was having a good time - and it didn't last for three days.

It must have been traumatic for FM though, because the day after (or in the days after) PG seemed to be determined to leave FM. So the reasoning: "Hippie-commune three day LSD binge" (cause) = "Peter wants out" (effect) was the simple way of explaining something much more complicated within the relationship of the group members. It seemed that PG was fed up with the lack of inspiration coming from the others at the time combined with the conflicts over giving away their money and all that. Maybe the fact is that FM and the people around them never saw what was coming up with regard to PG and his illness - being overworked and heavily involved with drugs themselves at the time. Reality is often too complicated when it comes to making painful things meaningful (like losing PG was to Mick and John). Then it is handy to believe that "a strange major event involving brain washing by jet-set german hippies" changed PG overnight. It's a comfortable story.

Ms Moose

The Munich incident
 

This was a popular story back in the seventies when I became a fan, and seemed to me to be somewhat overblown even then. Everything I read regarding Peter's response to the many questions regarding this incident led me to believe that it was simply easier for Peter to agree with the popular suggestion that he had taken too much acid, took a trip and never came back, etc.. than to try and explain the spiritual journey he was on, a jouney that didn't necessarily include music. I can understand the band's need to find a scapegoat as Peter's departure must have seemed bizzare and inexplicable, especially given the success they were having at the time. Some of the comments that were made by Peter, Jeremy, Mick, and John during the taping of the 2007 documentary support this view in my opinion. Peter's response to the same old question was that he just having fun at the commune. Jeremy's story of how Peter came up with the name Fleetwood Mac, and John's surprise at hearing this story. Not to mention Gary Moore saying that Peter had told him that he was leaving Fleetwood Mac a year before he actually did. These comments and others support the idea that Peter looked at being a member of Fleetwood Mac and any other band for that matter as something temporary, and considerably less important than any spiritual quest he may have be on. As for the Munich tape: After Jeremy mentioned that Peter had told him that this music was the most spiritual music he had ever played, wow! what I would give to hear that!

and so it goes...
 

According to the Man of of the World DVD, Jeremy thought the music coming from the basement was crap (he was there). I'm sure those jams probably resemble the "End of the Game" material.

I also noticed that not only do the other members from the Man/World DVD use Munich to blame Peter's "change", but they also include Danny Kirwan since he went to the mansion with Peter. "They both were never the same". It does sound convenient doesn't it? Only a crazy person would want to leave a commercially successful rock band just about to break it open in the United States.

However, in Christopher Hjort's book he describes Peter's behavior in Europe as "erratic". He was throwing wah pedals at roadies screaming "fix it", when it wasn't broken. Dinky Dawson tried to avoid him most of the time during that tour. Peter was clearly unhappy. Another example is Peter's request for flash photography to cease once the concert began at the Roundhouse Chalkfarm 4/70. Flashbulbs can really mess with someone who's been affected by LSD. However, his guitar playing was unmatched, a true professional to the end for the fans.

So it's agreed that Peter was leaving no matter what, the question is would Peter have given up music altogether without the drugs? Would his schizophrenia have occurred naturally, possibly later in life?

Ahhhhhh, I'm with Peter on this one. Drugs or no drugs. If you've ever been on-stage when someone's TAKING flash photos, it's momentarily disorientating, even to someone completely sober...there's that temporary blindness (spots) that can cause the performer to take a misstep and possibly get hurt from tripping over equipment/cables to accidently bumping into a bandmate to even falling off the edge of the stage. Which is why most artists even today request/demand that no flash photography be taken during shows. It's just downright dangerous for the performer.

I think a big problem to unraveling the reality of the Munich story is that many of the people who were involved, either directly or indirectly, seem to have their own agenda to push. Mick Fleetwood, Rainer Langhans, and Peter himself have reasons to spin the tale in ways that benefit them. And even if they don't have a personal agenda to push, it's natural that each person will have seen things through their individual experiences and how it affected them personally, plus many of those who have talked or written of the incident were not present during the entire time so they can only guess what else may have happened. Add to that the fact that pretty much everyone involved was using one or more substances that night so memories of the event are sure to be affected by that too.

It seems pretty clear that Peter was going to leave the band soon in any case. IIRC I've read that it took some persuasion to get Peter to return with the band to the UK after the winter 1970 US tour was over - he'd wanted to stay and spend more time in the US, as he would do later that year. So at the very least I think we can put to rest the story that the Munich incident suddenly propelled him to quit the band (though it's possible that it might have provided the last push for him to announce he was leaving).

In the end, it's doubtful that we'll ever know just what happened in Munich...though it sure would be interesting to hear those tapes someday, if they still exist.

The only thing I see as being somewhat universally true, though, is that people who had been close to Peter noticed an almost immediate change afterwards. Not JUST Mick, but John, Christine, Jenny Fleetwood, and others have commented over the years that there was a stark change in Peter's personality. Given what is known about schizophrenia, he met all of the high risks (i.e. a somewhat introverted, uncertain male with life-long religious issues under the age of 25 suddenly in the spotlight, not exactly sure how to cope with it, who was using hard drugs). It wouldn't really take a lot to get somebody like Peter, or Danny, to that point.

Whether or not he was going to leave Fleetwood Mac is almost irrelevant, the fact that he was digging graves by 1972 says a lot. (I'd argue that there were fixations on death and money.) People leave bands all the time and go on with careers at the same time as their old band. Hell, people have left FLEETWOOD MAC and still gone on with careers (i.e. everybody who joined after Danny Kirwan). Bob Welch wasn't digging graves two years after quitting Fleetwood Mac. There was never a point where Bob was this guy on Monday, but was this other guy by Friday, which WAS the case with Peter.

Here's what I don't understand about the "introverted" Peter Green:

This is the same person who approached established British blues artist John Mayall (while Clapton was in Greece for a couple months in 1965) to claim he was better than Clapton's replacement onstage. Keith Moon was at least drunk when he told Roger Daltrey he was better than the drummer onstage in 1964. That's just plain brazen confidence. Where did it go? It of course worked out for Green when Clapton formed Cream a year later, Mayall asked Green to replace Clapton.

Peter Green during the Mayall years, and the first year and a half with Fleetwood Mac was very controlling. He knew what he wanted and he expected it from his session musician's, or FM band members. For those who have the "Fleetwood Mac Blue Horizons Sessions" box set know this. Peter Green was a great leader, a task master, he always complained that Mick Fleetwood was behind the beat. He was demanding, but was correct everytime. He used to verbally fight with producer Mike Vernon.


So prior to the first U.S. visit in San Francisco with Owsley Stanley (Bear) in 6/68, Peter Green is a very self confident guitarist. Peter began to change during the first U.S. tour in the fall of '68. That's when "something" happened. From that experience came self doubt: "Man of the World", "Green Manalishi", and "Oh Well". Forget the Munich incident, this "trigger" happened during the U.S. late '68/early '69 tour.

Disillusion with fame might have been the trigger? Few people can handle fame. Coupled with some drugs.

How to contact Rainer Langhans
 

You're welcome. Yes, the viennese coffee was fine. :)

If anyone else wishes to ask Rainer Langhans anything about his Munich encounter with Peter Green "send a private message to me, I'll give you the contact adress you require". - Maybe Langhans took some photographs of Greenie (and him and/or Uschi Obermair)?

popmuseum, I'd be more reluctant in publishing somebody's email adress on a forum like this. Spammers are everywhere.
Here's a suggestion: Maybe it would be better if you edit your previous message to something like "send a private message to popmuseum, he'll give you the contact adress you require".