And, for me, it's even more of a revelation reading that Mick Fleetwood played LEAD GUITAR on the track!! I guess after so many decades of playing with God-like guitarists, something must've rubbed off via osmosis.

i thought there were some great tracks on 'Time' :)

The album article in Wikipedia says this is the first that failed to make the charts in the US. Is that really true? Do they mean the Top 100 or the whole chart at all? Does anybody know?

In any case, after reading how Time was born, the Warner pressure, etc.. If it failed to make any chart, no doubt the lineup was damned to die, cause no record company would support it.

No, that's incorrect. The album called Black Magic Woman which was a reissue of Dog & Dustbin & English Rose in a 2-LP set in 1972 did not chart either.

Considering there's no numbers higher than 200, I would assume that the lowest the charts go is #200.

Heroes Are Hard To Find was the first Fleetwood Mac album to break into the Top 40, peaking at 34.

Amazingly, prior to that, their highest charting album was Penguin at #49.

Here's the entire list...with the highest charting position:

Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac (aka Dog & Dustbin): 198
English Rose: 184
Then Play On: 109
Kiln House: 64
Blues Jam At Chess (aka Fleetwood Mac In Chicago): 143
Future Games: 91
Bare Trees: 70
Black Magic Woman (reissue of Dog & Dustbin/English Rose as 2lp set): did not chart
Penguin: 49
Mystery To Me: 67
Heroes Are Hard To Find: 34
Vintage Years (reissue of Dog & Dustbin/Mr Wonderful as 2-lp set): 138
Fleetwood Mac: 1
Fleetwood Mac In Chicago (reissue): 118
Rumours: 1
Tusk: 4
Fleetwood Mac Live: 14
Mirage: 1
Tango In The Night: 7
Greatest Hits ('88): 14
Behind The Mask: 18
Time: did not chart
The Dance: 1
Very Best Of Fleetwood Mac: 12
Say You Will: 3

The Original Fleetwood Mac wasn't originally released in the US...don't know if, by the time it was, it ever was tracked for chart appearance...but it appears that it didn't make the US album charts, either.

I'm sure Chris will like me saying this but seriously I often wondered if this had to do with Walker joining since he was the lead singer for Savoy Brown at the peak of their popularity and SB fans heard he jumped ship and so they were curious to see what direction FM were going to go in (i.e. more like SB, and may have continued to follow them had Penguin sounded more like SB)? Just a thought. :)

John

With Walker on board I'm surprised the album didn't reach No. 1! Although perhaps he needed more vocals on the album to help it along???? :laugh:

I thought this thread was dead.

I have enjoyed reading the interaction of us fans and even the off-topic responses (Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Traffic, etc)

Although I have nothing to contribute to the afformentioned...I found the MF's Blues Band revival w/ CM and Steven Tyler to be refreshing and the very least (or most) Entertaining!

This (IMO) would be an excellent combo to make an album and tour! I'd love to see this line-up live.

Can I revive this thread? I'm listening to Time just now, and I really think this album (and forum, actually) need a bit more love. This isn't my favourite Mac album, but it's one of the few without a track that I dislike. I've really enjoyed reading some of your takes on it, as it's not an album that is often discussed. :)

I'm sorry to say, though, that I can't get into Bekka much as a lead singer. I think she's a gifted songwriter and I really enjoy her work in that regard, but her voice just doesn't pull me in, somehow. I keep imagining her songs being covered by some great country singer, and how mind-blowingly awesome that'd be. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to be imagining what an awesome cover Singer X would do when you're listening to the original version of a song, though. ;) Sorry Bekka!

Thanks for this tracklist! I'm excited to try it out. :) I agree that the tracklisting is particularly jarring on this album. Talkin' To My Heart is probably one of my favourite Mac tunes of all, and a really strong album opener, and then it doesn't really feel like it has an album to follow it at all. The whole album really feels like someone hit "shuffle" in a playlist with (at least) two different albums in it.

ETA: Also, can I gush over the cover? It might just be me, but I find something beautifully simple and clever about it. Could've become iconic if the music within had been better received.

I always liked the cover, too.

The album does have one of my fave songs by Christine: 'Sooner Or Later'.

"Talkin' To My Heart" is one of the Mac's best ever. (So was "Inuition" ...)

They could've been great, but they chose the chicken sh*t (don't ban me, bro -at least this time) way out.

I'm glad it's not just me who loves that song. It's really something wonderful, isn't it?

I actually quite like the SYW-lineup of the band, but it is always interesting to imagine what might/could have been, if the band had just been more comfortable completely rebooting itself at that point.

One the main reasons Penguin charted higher than Mystery was that the Mystery tour was aborted after a few weeks. The band didn't have the opportunity to promote the record. But before that, all the Mac albums from Future Games onward showed a steady climbing in the charts. If they had properly toured Mystery that would most likely have been the first Pre-BN record to crack the top 40.

His "Time" with Fleetwood Mac was so bizarre to me. I was more familiar with him through his association with Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas. That band wrote the reference road book for the interpersonal relationships, dysfunction and indulgences that Fleetwood Mac would experience a decade later. In 1972 Dave and Cass together released a great album. How could I ever imagine him joining Fleetwood Mac?:shocked::

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

Don't think it was that he didn't jell with Traffic, I think it was more that there was some serious mutual dislike between he & Steve Winwood, which apparently had its roots back when Dave was a roadie for the Spencer Davis Group. Why Steve wanted to include Dave in Traffic in the first place was kind of a mystery in itself.

Even Eric Clapton, when forming Derek & The Dominos, pretty much tossed him to the curb, telling the press in a very graceful way that Dave was "a great songwriter & needed his own band". Dave had played on the two songs of their first single ("Tell The Truth"/"Roll It Over"*) that got recalled the same day it was released for some reason (both were really good songs, I thought). He was in the studio with the rest of the Dominos during the sessions for George Harrison's All Things Must Pass...also, Dave had been playing along with Clapton in Delaney & Bonnie and Friends...when Eric got the heart of the D&B band to be Dominos, I think Dave kind of assumed he'd be a Domino, too. :shrug:

That he spent so many months nagging Mick to let him in Fleetwood Mac is kind of odd, considering he's NOT really made to be a sideman or band member. He seems to be made of the cloth that wants to call the shots.

(and considering his history with Steve Winwood, I'm surprised that he was so bent out of shape for not being included in Traffic's 1994 reunion tour; basically since he was already on the road with Fleetwood Mac at the time)



*=(the single versions of those songs can be heard on Eric's first Crossroads box set and the recent 40th Anniversary deluxe edition of Layla & OALS)

He probably assumed Christine's role would be limited to a couple of songs, and Bekka was still wet behind the ears, so he probably thought he WOULD be calling the shots. Having Billy come back changed everything.

Jim Capaldi was with Dave in The Hellions, I think probably the Traffic project grew from The Hellions to a certain extent.

I know Winwood was very unfond of the Hole In My Shoe single getting a lot of airplay, feeling it was not representative of the Traffic sound. I know they did contribute to at least one of Mason's songs with Traffic but seems to have been under duress for him to share credit or collaborate.

According to Wikipedia, This album was also the first that failed to make the charts in the US. With no Stevie and Lindsey, and a barely presence of Christine, I guess nobody was enough interested in releasing a single, but I thought the record company always try to sell a record, so a single should always exist, or so I believed.

But no single was released, was it? At the Wikipedia page of this album, there is no single mentioned. Don't know how reliable are its sources.

And if any song was intende to be a single, I guess the record company would have selected a Christine song, don't you think?

Christine sang lead on FIVE songs, more than Billy Burnette and Dave Mason COMBINED! She DOMINATED that record.

"I Do" was released, and I think "Winds of Change" was, too.

By the time it was released, Christine was out and Mick was working with Lindsey. The record company would likely rather have paid a large advance on a Lindsey-Mick record than on promoting a new Fleetwood Mac album knowing Christine McVie was no longer in the band.

What always kills me is how people talk about how it was such a huge failure (and it was), but fail to mention that Stevie and Lindsey also hit the skids in album sales around that time, and they promoted and toured behind their albums. The "Time" band was basically done by the time the album was released.

Wow. You know your stuff, And I learned a lot more about Dave Mason's history. Thanks for the info. Glad to find a Ledgie who has extensive knowledge of the Mamas and Papas. In Matt Greenswald's book about them contains a rare photo I gave to him. My name is credited under it, but it's not PenguinHead! And you're probably right about them being more debouched than Fleetwood Mac ever was.

The promo single is on Ebay with spooky Dennis Wilson rose garden-like cover!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEETWOOD-MA...item3ca43fdaab

The German CD single for "I Do" is absolutely worth tracking down. It features the radio edit, plus "Talkin' To My Heart," and the extended & dub versions of "Little Lies."

I've never found a promo single for any of the other 'Time' tracks, but I'd love to find one if it's out there.

That's the CD single I have. (also has an alternate photo from that of the album's cover shoot)

I didn't realize Christine and Richard produced the track.

I have a different Promo CD with the Penguin on the cover. I got it off Ebay a while ago.

There was an interesting posting on Richards blog concerning Time:

Anonymous poster:
Hello Richard, what was it like working on the "Time" album during a period of such a big change within the band?

Richard Dashut:
I hated it. Remember having big problems with a stubborn Dave Mason, who wouldn’t take any production advice. Ended up quitting early on that one I was so frustrated. Felt like a big let down after five quality albums and with no Stevie and Lindsey, I had no real spiritual connection to the project. I probably agreed to do it in the first place just for the money, my bad.

I can see that come through on the album. Dave's songs (which aren't the strongest anyway) could perhaps have come across better with different/better production. I suppose that's what you get when you have people that have 'been around the block a few times'- set in their ways and unwilling to take direction from others.

That was my question :nod:

I like the Time album for what it is -- a peculiar anomaly in a band with a very varied history. Dave Mason was the oddity member for the fact that he already had a long established career at a solo artist, so it seemed like he was just gigging with the band in his spare time.

Now please excuse my divergence:

I love that you mentioned another anomaly that is Dave Mason/Cass Elliot album! I'm huge fan of all things Cass Elliot, from her her folk days with The Big Three, The Mugwamps, and the Mamas & Papas, and her short-lived solo career. This rather obscure album is just amazing. Cass had many musical friends, including Dave. I love listening to it; my only beef is that Cass only has one solo vocal song on it. But but she can sing harmonies like no other; her indelible voice just shines through.

They performed a handful of shows together at the Fillmore, billed as Mason Cass. I have an original handbill from one of the shows. I wish there was more documentation from these rare performances. Their solo careers were their main priorities. This partnership was just a bizarre a one-off venture, but it's really good! Glad to hear of someone else who knows and likes the album. It was re-released a few years ago.

I find it difficult to explain a like or dislike for Time given the course of events, circumstances and personnel changes in Fleetwood Mac after Behind the Mask. Although there are great musicians that offered some good songs, I think the time period would have been better suited for solo or side projects.

Zoo; Shakin' the Cage: I do not mind, and actually like, a harder rocking sound after Behind the Mask. I liked the direction this band was going. Another LP would have established the band. The diamond in the rough here is Brett Tuggle, who has handled keyboards, bass, guitar and vocals well for Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey and Stevie.

Christine: I have been aware of rumors Christine may have recorded a solo LP in the 1990s. It would have been similar to In the Meantime with Mick, John and Billy contributing along with George Hawkins and Steve Ferrone. Mentioning Brett, I wonder if he and Christine met during this time.

I don't see it.

Future Games: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Kirwan, Welch

Rumours: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Buckingham, Nicks

Time: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Burnette, Bramlette, Mason

Fleetwood, McVie, McVie...FLEETWOOD MAC.

AMEN! :nod:

Just been listening to Time again. It really does feature some good songs. Perhaps Billy's vocals need to be more prominent- he didn't sing enough lead on this album. I think the overall sound of the album was too soft as the majority of the lead vocals were Becca & Christine (Even though past albums featured 2/3 female vocalists, Stevie's harsher voice counter-balanced Christine's more).

...and all Christine's contributions are very good by the way. Sooner or Later in particular has just stood out to me as a song I've really under-appreciated in the past.

I have that promo. I recall I bought for less than 5 bucks.

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.

http://photo.sing365.com/music/pictu...p+Festival.jpg

ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

This is the first time I've ever heard about this- do you have any supporting information?

Thanks! I fully aware of it. I have several copies of it, including a rare original poster from the event. They also performed Somebody Groovy. A few years ago a DVD set was released, featuring the Festival movie, as well as amazing outtake performances and interviews. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to transport themselves back to a the height of the flower power era.

It was only recorded for the documentary of the Festival. ( John and Michelle were on the board of directors.) This was in the latter part of their career. Busy working the Festival, they didn't have time to rehearse for the show, even though they were the headliners featured to close the 3 day event.

Denny flew in from Canada at the last moment before they appeared on stage. To make matter worse, Jimi Hendrix performed prior to them, and the stage was left in a mess. There were technical problems, including Michelle's mike being faulty. And it wasn't their normal touring band,which consisted of the much lauded/in demand Wrecking Crew.

They went on to do a few more live shows before disbanding. But they sadly admitted that this was their worst performance. How ironic that it is their only performance ever recorded. They prided themselves for being able to reasonably replicate their record performances live on stage, despite all the studio overdubs.

Lots of bands from their era have archives/bootleg live shows. But the Mamas & Papas weren't a heavy road band (they have their fill of that in their struggling folk days). They did a few short, small show stint tours in big markets over a two year span -1966-1967.

But there is no evidence of these shows anywhere, other than a few news clips/reviews. It would be a like finding the holey grail if a recording one of their shows when they were at their peak surfaced. There is almost no documentation - not even of their set lists. It's very frustrating for fans.

PenguinHead, do you know anything about Mama Cass' connection to Voytek Frykowski and Abigail Folger, who were victims of The Manson Family at Sharon Tate's house? I heard that Cass had a boyfriend who was basically using her for the money and he had connections to Sharon Tate and her friends. Supposedly, Cass also lived in Benedict or Laurel Canyon.

Interesting! Well I know Cass had a house in Laurel Canyon. She was essentially the welcoming committee for all the English rock stars who came to the US. There are photos of Graham Nash, Joni Mitchel, Steven Stills, Neil Young and Eric Clapton etc...hanging out at her house. Cass was a social matchmaker bringing people together.

Cass had a boyfriend who was not of the standard she deserved. Given that it was small community of people in the entertainment business, I'm sure she and her boyfriend crossed paths with Sharon Tate and her associates. John and Michelle Phillips hosted big parties at their house. They were friends with Sharon, so it's likely they were all part of that that social scene to a certain extent.

If I had access to my books, I could give you more detailed answers. I love studying that era of music/history.