Is Carlos Santana really all that? [Archive]

sulamith

11-15-2002, 12:17 PM

Since there have been a number of technical questions being asked and answered so well lately, I have to ask this question because I am already sick to death of that "Game of Love" song with Michele Branch.
Every time I turn on the radio for the last few days, there it is blaring at me. I think my brain will ooze out of my ears if I have to hear it every hour.

So, all you guitar players, please tell me.....
Is Santana really that great a player? Is his technical ability really that superior to my beloved Lindsey, or is it just radically different?
I just don't get the "vibe" or emotion off of his playing that I get from LB, so maybe it's that I just don't connect with him. Santana's playing just sort of lays there as far as I'm concerned, whereas Lindsey's grabs me and forces me to listen.

Everyone thinks Santana is just the be all and end all of guitarists. Has he just been very good at marketing himself a la Martha Stewart or Thomas Kinkade?
I don't think his playing is anything to get all that excited over.
Why does he have such a reputation?
Please fill me in on whatever it is that I am missing.

chiliD

11-15-2002, 01:26 PM

My criteria for being a great guitarist is if you can tell exactly who's playing in just a few notes; someone who's SOUND is like their DNA. Carlos is definitely in that category.

BB King
Albert King
Freddie King
Buddy Guy
Eric Clapton
Peter Green
Lindsey Buckingham
Mark Knopfler
Steve Howe
Jimi Hendrix
Carlos Santana
Eddie Van Halen
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Neil Young
Joe Satriani
Steve Vai

All have that "fingerprint" tone that makes them recognizable upon hearing only a few notes of their playing. Not all are "technical wizards" (i.e. Neil Young), but you sure can tell who's playing a mile away.

There are things about Carlos' playing I don't care for (his insistance on overly drenching his guitar with reverb...but, then that's part of his "trademark"), and he's not anywhere near the guitarist he WAS 20 or so years ago...due to that he's found his niche and has gotten comfortable. Back in the mid-70s, when he was playing more jazz-fusion material (Like the "Love, Devotion & Surrender" album he did with Mahavishnu John McLaughlin), he had some INCREDIBLE chops...since then he's found a simpler sound and has stuck with it. Like Peter Green & Eric Clapton, he CAN play "like he used to", but CHOOSES not to.

sulamith

11-15-2002, 01:48 PM

Thanks, ChiliD. That does help me to understand it better, and I think that reverb thing you were talking about is what I don't like about him either. And I sure can tell most of those guys from just a few notes.

I didn't recognize all the names on your list, but I guess I have a little research to do. My 9 year-old is getting ready to start guitar lessons after pestering me about it for about a year. He says he likes the way the strings feel under his fingers. I'm going to let him see what he can do. I read music myself, but I am going to have to learn about all this guitar stuff, so that is why I have been reading these threads. They are very interesting.

We are going guitar shopping this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

Hey, what about Keith Richard? He seems like another one who is no technical genius but has his own style.

CarneVaca

11-15-2002, 01:54 PM

So true, Chili. I bought Supernatural a few years ago because I thought it was a neat idea to record a CD with a bunch of other artists. But I have to admit that I have not listened to it in more than a year. Now comes another one, using the same formula, and I won't go near it. Interestingly, I have yet to hear the Michele Branch song in full; I simply don't listen to the radio anymore.

A colleague brought over the new record, I popped it into my computer, skipped through a few songs, and all I heard was the same tired licks over and over. I believe Chili hit it right on the head: Carlos found a comfort zone and has stuck with it.

This is all the more reason to appreciate Lindsey's work. Even though the Gift of Screws music doesn't break new ground for the most part, he seems to have been able to blend all the stuff he's done in the past to as close to perfection as you can get.

madformac

11-15-2002, 02:00 PM

Yeah I agree with chiliD there although I would add Slash to that list as well.

I've got Santana's new album, as well as Supernatural before it and although it is very good it does seem too manufactured. Santana has found a new market with his grammy winning style, I just hope he doesn't run it into the ground. ;)

Speaking as a guitarist not a listener, there is nothing "special" about his playing in the last few years to me. I do like the sounds he gets (I used to have a PRS guitar with the same pickups) again a personal thing, but he doesn't make my jaw drop like Lindsey or Knopfler do.

Good luck to him, he is distinctive and successful but he has gone too mainstream in style to pull anything radical with a guitar for my liking.

:wavey:

chiliD

11-15-2002, 02:00 PM

Hey, what about Keith Richard?

Sure!! My list wasn't complete by ANY stretch of the imagination. :)

Also:

Pete Townshend
Jeff Beck
Danny Kirwan
Chet Atkins
Les Paul
Charlie Christian
Wes Montgomery
Joe Pass
Brent Mason

(and, I'm starting to feel that Rick Vito is closing in on being included in this group...I've gotten to where I can pick him out, too!)

wondergirl9847

11-15-2002, 07:01 PM

Carlos ain't all that...to me. That new song with Michelle is okay, but his guitaring (to a novice, like myself, hehe. LMAO!) sounds "messy" at times, it sounds like he's just strumming with no kind of melodic consistency...like a 5 year old banging on a piano. I HATE when guitarists do that, no melody, just trying to be the fastest or whatever. *Yawn* :rolleyes:

Anywho, I can, however, tell it's him when he plays...which is what Chilid was saying...but do I really give a hoot? Nope. :laugh:

Lindsey is the ONLY person to EVER move me to tears with his guitar playing, that, my friends, makes him my favorite and IMO, the best. :nod::D

chiliD

11-15-2002, 07:09 PM

...Ry Cooder.

My wife can pick Webb Wilder out of a pack of 100 guitar players...not that that's a GOOD thing; it's just that he's so BAD.:distress:

estranged4life

11-15-2002, 11:42 PM

guitarist to add to your list chiliD:

Gary Moore (Has anyone heard his live performance of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that he did with George Harrison???)

Brian May (Anything he did Queen-wise is great IMO...)

Did anyone watch Conan O'Brien last night? Mark Knopfler was the musical performer and I just HAD to @#$%^& fall alseep just before he appeared...I hate when that happens...Brian J.

seteca

11-16-2002, 12:48 AM

I would definitely not say that Santana is "the be all and end all of guitarists".

I don't find anything that he has done (at least since his "re-launch") to be that impressive.

In fact, I'd say the same about any guitarist who's currently in the "pop world"....

Definitely wasn't the case 20/30 years ago and before....

But I do agree that Santana does have a very distinctive tone and that goes a long way...mucho respect!:nod:

I agree with ChiliD's list, and all the additions, and would also like to add two additions of my own:

Hank Marvin (that signature Echorec tone is INSTANTLY recognisable!)

Prince

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever.

sulamith

11-16-2002, 12:56 AM

Thanks for all this wonderful input and opinions, guys!
Since I mentioned this earlier in this thread, I just wanted to follow up for anyone that might be interested......
We are now the proud owners of a sweet youth size Signature Greg Bennett-designed black gloss-finish guitar.
My son walked around wearing it and strumming it all evening.

Lessons start tomorrow.

Right now it's cute.

I hope we're as in love with it five lessons from now as we are at the moment! lol!!

estranged4life

11-16-2002, 12:58 AM

"p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever."

...I love Brian May's tone, Which is like ya said is Most recognisable (He has been rumoured to be playing some of the leads on the "Maybe-this-decade" Guns 'N Roses release "Chinese Democracy")

...As for a rhythm player I always thought Tom Scholz of Boston had a very recognisable tone...But I guess those SRD "Rockmans" & Les Pauls caused that tone, Brian J.

jeffles

11-22-2002, 04:31 PM

Keith Richards wasn't even the best guitar player in the Rolling Stones, mick taylor had that distinction.
Santana is a great player but i don't like much of his new stuff, especially the collaborations with the likes of Michelle Branch, etc. Santana isn't a marketing genius, Clive Davis is. Davis was the head of Arista records who concocted "Supernatural".

chiliD

11-22-2002, 06:49 PM

As for a rhythm player I always thought Tom Scholz of Boston had a very recognisable tone...But I guess those SRD "Rockmans" & Les Pauls caused that tone

Well, since Tom Scholz was the person who DESIGNED AND PATENTED the "Rockman" amp, I guess that would be true. ;)

Both Mark Knopfler & Billy Gibbons (of ZZ Top) were avid users of the Rockman amp (used as a pre-amp), too.

Main (but, not the ONLY) examples of each:

Knopfler: "Money For Nothing" (from "Brothers In Arms album)

Gibbons: "Rough Boy" (from the "Afterburner" album)

estranged4life

11-22-2002, 06:52 PM

about Mr.Scholz and the "Rockmans", but I didnt know he sold SRD back in 1997 though, That was a surprise to me to find out...Brian J.

PS-I forgot to add that the whole "Afterburner" album by ZZ Top is one of my all-time favorite albums mainly due to the songs "Rough Boy" & "Stages"

seteca

11-22-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
...(He has been rumoured to be playing some of the leads on the "Maybe-this-decade" Guns 'N Roses release "Chinese Democracy")

Brian, any idea as to when this album is going to actually come out?? I've been hearing dates for years and years now, and I was under the impression that it was definitely going to be released in October....so now when is the proposed release date? ("Madagascar" is awesome!)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

estranged4life

11-22-2002, 10:38 PM

...This is from a radio interview at KISW:

Q: It sounds like you've really nurtured relationships with these guys, and the new disc, "Chinese Democracy"… Do you have any idea when the fruits of those labors will come to harvest?

Axl Rose: "Sometime during the next year (February...tentatively). With the guys, I do have a really positive relationship with the individual members, and each one of them excites me with what they bring to it, creatively or just as a person, and how each one of them works really hard. Because I think anyone that watches this project at all also sees the abuse that this project goes through, and these guys shoulder that really, really well, and they don't have a problem dealing with it, and I have to just respect the hell out of that with these guys...But also, this show is something that is designed to be growing over the next couple of years. It's like, this is the start of something, but then remember, we will be putting out a record, and then, about a year or so after that, we'll be putting out ANOTHER one (They have reportedly anywhere from 60-100 songs already finished), so there'll be a lot more material added into the set with a lot more things going on. This is the beginning, and we need to be showing people a lot of the older material, but it will grow."

seteca

11-22-2002, 11:15 PM

Well...all I can say is...fingers crossed!:nod:

Thanks a lot for that Brian.:cool:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

silversprings8

11-23-2002, 12:31 AM

I don't know where to post this... so I guess here is good.... since you are talking about great guitarists.

Have any of you heard of Don Ross????

If not, I'd advise all of you (especially the guitar buffs) to check him out!!!!

You can get some of his stuff on Kazaa. Look up "Tight Trite Night", "Micheal, Micheal, Micheal", "Klimbim", and "3 Hands". You will not regret it!!!!!!!! I don't even know what you would classify his style as... very unique if you ask me. I've never heard anyone play the guitar like this.

Kate

seteca

11-24-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by silversprings8
Have any of you heard of Don Ross????

Nope...! But I'll check him out on Kazaa...cheers!:cool:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

madformac

11-24-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by seteca
Well...all I can say is...fingers crossed!:nod:

It'll be interesting.

But GNR without Slash is like Mac without Lindsey, great band but the genius is missing.

:nod: :distress: :nod: :wavey:

wondergirl9847

11-24-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by madformac
But GNR without Slash is like Mac without Lindsey, great band but the genius is missing.:nod: :distress: :nod: :wavey:

I love you. :D LOL

seteca

11-24-2002, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by madformac

It'll be interesting.

But GNR without Slash is like Mac without Lindsey, great band but the genius is missing.

As you know,:nod:, I totally agree with you...that signature sound of G n' R IS the sound of Slash's guitar...

However, I'd rather they were still around and making music, than to totally disband....if Madagascar is anything to go by, I look forward to the whole album...:)

And hey, although at the moment both parties would rather cut their own wrists, you never know, one day, maybe, just maybe, he might come back.;)

(Stranger things have happened, as we ALL know on THIS forum!)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

madformac

11-24-2002, 07:56 PM

Hey, Seteca,

I agree Madagascar sounds really good, I hope the new stuff is more like this and not that "End Of Days" type sound.

Slash hasn't ruled out a return to Guns. In fact he said he would love to rejoin the band eventually, he just wants Axl to get the ideas and music he is writing now out of his system first, then if there is agreement on the "musical differences" side of things he'll be back, and so will the record sales. :D

Wondergirl9847, I love you too! :D :laugh: :wavey:

estranged4life

11-24-2002, 08:15 PM

But Slash isnt going to be in GnR ever again (Too many lawsuits/counter-lawsuits/"mudslinging"/etc. after he gave his notice and left the band have more-than-likely killed those chances...) It's sad because I liked the original lineup as much as anyone else but it's a permanent divorce...No chance for a reconciliation.

I have read several recent interviews where Axl has been offered tons of money for a reunion tour/album/etc but refuses to do it because he is concentrating on the current GnR lineup and he feels that the other former members would only be interested in a reunion for just the cash and nothing more and he doesnt feel they would really give their "all" to try to push the band foward...I really wished it would happen like everyone else, But being realistic it won't happen.

BUT also, Here is something that makes you still have faith for the future of REAL Rock-N-Roll; Slash, Duff McKagan, Matt Sorum & Izzy Stradlin are currently recording an album...All they need is a singer who could fit their type of music, Which isnt a "GnR revisited" scenario type of group...If you want to read more go to www.mygnr.com and click the "November 2002 News" icon and check out whats going on with this new lineup...

BTW, The new completed GnR tracks are very awesome in sound, Not the reported "Techno" sound that everyone has been "rumouring" about...(ie-"Chinese Democracy" has a killer riff which is very memorable...)

madformac

11-24-2002, 08:32 PM

estranged4life, thanks for the info.

A Slash/Izzy/Duff/Matt album, sounds good, just need a great singer.

I seem to recall Faith No More needed a new singer, Mike Patton got the job and they went on to far greater things....

When Slash talked about rejoining Guns in the future that was about a year ago in Guitarist magazine, guess things have moved on. :laugh:

The best gig I've been to was a GNR gig. Milton Keynes 1993. Axl, Slash, Gilby, Izzy, Dizzy, Matt, Mike Monroe and Ronnie Wood. What a combo! 3 hours of screaming Les Pauls.

:wavey:

seteca

11-24-2002, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
BUT also, Here is something that makes you still have faith for the future of REAL Rock-N-Roll; Slash, Duff McKagan, Matt Sorum & Izzy Stradlin are currently recording an album...All they need is a singer who could fit their type of music, Which isnt a "GnR revisited" scenario type of group...

I heard about this a month or so ago, and to say I can't WAIT is the understatement of the century....this is going to be awesome. Pretty much the original line-up minus Axl.....So Axl's gonna do his thing, and these guys are gonna do their new thing....the more material from all of them, the better. Regardless of what they say about it not being a "G n' R scenario", nothing can change the fact that the sound of G n' R was the sound of Slash (I was just listening to the Godfather Theme from '92..and it's just amazing how with that FIRST note...no bend....no other band....just him hitting one note, you INSTANTLY think SLASH/GnR), which means that that sound will go wherever Slash goes. And that's a GOOD thing.:nod:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

CarneVaca

11-25-2002, 09:35 AM

I can't recall Lindsey ever saying anything about Django Reinhardt. Of course, as soon as I post this, three people are going to jump and say, Well in 1978, Lindsey was taking a crap backstage during one of Mick's interminable, self-indulgent drum solos, then came back out and said, "Boy that felt good. Now, where did I put that dang ole Les Paul? Oh, there it is." But notice, he didn't actually say "Django," though in his inebriated state "dang ole" sounded like "Django."

That doesn't count.

I'm not sure what the point of all that was. But I just wanted to say, Django! If you haven't heard any of his stuff, make sure you go check it out. Of course, Lindsey must like him because he named a little ditty after him.

sulamith

11-25-2002, 09:46 AM

This thread has taken such an amusing turn..........

seteca

11-28-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I can't recall Lindsey ever saying anything about Django Reinhardt. Of course, as soon as I post this, three people are going to jump and say, Well in 1978, Lindsey was taking a crap backstage during one of Mick's interminable, self-indulgent drum solos, then came back out and said, "Boy that felt good. Now, where did I put that dang ole Les Paul? Oh, there it is." But notice, he didn't actually say "Django," though in his inebriated state "dang ole" sounded like "Django."

That doesn't count.

LMAO..! How about when he told Warner that the name of his new solo album would be "Django In The Night" after his tooth operation?:)

I love Django Reinhardt. He's in my top 10 guitarists of all time, and has actually influenced a lot of my playing, particularly his fluidity. I often wondered also how big an influence he was on LB, and why LB decided to cover John Lewis's tribute to him: was it because he really liked the John Lewis song, or because he was also a fan of Django?

Weirdly, "Django" is a very beautiful song, but sounds nothing like Django (if ya get what I mean!).

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

p.s. I'm playing it as the opener for my gig next week.:cool:

estranged4life

11-28-2002, 07:58 PM

GuitarPlayer magazine Carlos Santana is on the cover and the first paragraph of his interview says alot about him having a comfort zone...

GP-Like its predecessor, "Shaman" is a cooperative effort. Did you try to approach this project differently from "Supernatural"?

C.S.-"I'll use Wayne Shorter's beautiful words: "It was completely new and totally familiar."

BTW-There are a couple of GREAT interviews with David Gilmour & Mark Knopfler that seem way more interesting than the Santana interview...I never knew Mark Knopfler was a left handed person...That would explain why he has a great hand for the fret board...Brian J.

seteca

11-28-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
BTW-There are a couple of GREAT interviews with David Gilmour & Mark Knopfler that seem way more interesting than the Santana interview...

WOW!!! Two of my favourite guitarists! I spent the past month or so working on an FX-created tone that would be "the best of both worlds" of the MK tone and the DG tone...and it's come out quite well...Madformac will attest that for me (I hope)!

Thanks for the heads-up Brian, I'll be getting a copy of that first thing tomorrow for sure!

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

madformac

11-29-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
I never knew Mark Knopfler was a left handed person...That would explain why he has a great hand for the fret board...Brian J.

Yes indeed, Knopfler, my favorite guitarist, is left handed which is why I guess, he has the power to pull perfect triad bends (three strings at a time) and vibratos plus also has such left hand fluidity and speed.

Having said he is my favorite, it changes between Knopfler, Buckingham, Peter Green and the great Eric Patrick Clapton every day or two.

Seteca's fx generated tone is very good, a bit of Knopfler, Gilmour and Green rolled into one. Slick stuff.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

estranged4life

12-05-2002, 06:31 PM

what do ya Brits think of his new 2 cd Live release? And what did you think of his performance last Friday at the George Harrison tribute show? Brian J.

Sarah

12-05-2002, 06:34 PM

Yep.

First time I heard "Game of Love" I knew it was Santana.

I think he DOES have the emotion.. I think his playing is all emotion, actually. I loooove how he gets REALLY into what he's playing and he just throws his head back, opens up his mouth, and really starts to enjoy what he's doing. He's done that forever..

one of the reasons why he's among the greatest.

(Still love LB.)

As for me, I'm not sick of "Game of Love" yet. Give me another month of heavy FM radio rotation and I might be.. but I'm still just enjoying every track on Shaman: GoL included.

Sarah

madformac

12-06-2002, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
what do ya Brits think of his new 2 cd Live release? And what did you think of his performance last Friday at the George Harrison tribute show? Brian J.

I think the new 2CD set is quite good, there are some songs on there, My Fathers Eyes etc that Eric hasn't played that much live so in that respect it was good, the bad thing was the sound mix, not up to the usual Clapton standard (My favorite is the Live In Hyde Park DVD). The other thing that annoyed me a little was the sound of Eric's 00042 EC Martin guitar. The action was set far too low for the stuff he was playing, far too much rattle.
The highlight for me was Billy Preston's performance. His little dance (I have the DVD) was cool too.

Maybe ChiliD could help us because he was probably there on August 18th 2001 at the Staples Center, LA. Chili?

I didn't see the Harrison gig although I did see a bit of the rehearsal on TV. I would have loved to go to the gig but tickets were changing hands for $2000 each! Not really in the spirit of the concert.
I chose to spend the night playing some of George's music (including his very honest "new" album Brainwashed) and remembering what a great player and human being he was.

:wavey: :wavey:

chiliD

12-06-2002, 02:55 PM

Nope, didn't see Eric this past tour...only the third tour I've missed of his since his 461 Ocean Blvd comeback tour in 1974. (the other two...the Ronnie Lane ARMS Benefit tour in the mid 80s; the "all blues" From The Cradle tour in the mid 90s)

I've listened to the 30 second clips of the "OMC, OMD" set at CDNOW; pretty much what I'd expected, except for "Going Down Slow"...THAT sounds like the Splinter Group doing "Real World"!!! (btw, what's with this "CDNOW/Amazon.com" thing? What a way to ruin a good online store).

It was nice to read that Carlos mentioned Peter Green THREE TIMES in this latest GP interview.

There are already a few bootlegged tunes from the Harrison Tribute show in circulation...(about B+ sound quality...audience recording; real echoey)

Tom Petty & Jeff Lynne (Tom singing George's part, Jeff doing a great job singing Roy Orbison's part) doing "Handle With Care"
Ringo doing "Photograph"
Paul McCartney doing "For You Blue" (wow, hearing Paul's voice on this is really eerie)
Paul on ukulele doing "Something" (ala the way he's been playing it on the Driving US tour) then segueing into the full band w/Eric on vocals finishing the song (ala the original recording)

estranged4life

12-06-2002, 07:10 PM

there will soon be "A+" quality bootlegs of the tribute show due to it being filmed for a future release...Plus with all the access to www.bootlegzone.com I'm hoping to find it sooner than later...(I'm anxiously awaiting to receive my copy of the great George Harrison/Gary Moore live version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"!!!)

I'm also curious to see the it due to the fact that some of people who played the show have a dislike for Clapton and said he was supposedly "Grand-standing" and that their dislike showed up on the stage while playing with Mr.Clapton (Clapton was the "band director")...Their dislike was even to the point that most left the aftershow party before E.C. showed up (He was announced to show, Which he never did.). Aww those big British Rock Hero Ego's...lol...Brian J.

chiliD

12-06-2002, 08:01 PM

In Eric's defense, I would imagine that it was an EXTREMELY painful thing for him to deal with. Not that it was any MORE painful than anyone else who participated, but Eric & George were probably closer than George was with his two "Beatle brothers" for the past couple of decades. Hence, Eric's being virtually silent in regards to a public statement since George's passing. I think no matter WHO the "Music Director" at this show would've been, there would've been some hard feelings toward the MD. I mean just look at the egos involved...Sir Paul, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, etc, are all BAND LEADERS in their own right and are used to calling the shots themselves. That the show even got off the ground is probably DUE to Eric being the MD and his usual "humility" probably got everyone THROUGH the show...whether there was back-biting going on or not.

Even at both the Queen's concert last summer and the "Concert For NY" last fall, there visibly didn't seem to be any love lost between Eric & Sir Paul...which is probably why they haven't worked together in any major capacity over the years.

Les

12-06-2002, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
I'm also curious to see the it due to the fact that some of people who played the show have a dislike for Clapton and said he was supposedly "Grand-standing" and that their dislike showed up on the stage while playing with Mr.Clapton (Clapton was the "band director")...

I read something about that too on the Fox news website a day or two after the show. It's always hard to know how much of this stuff to believe as the writer did a lot of projecting and editorializing, but this is what was written:

Did Clapton Give McCartney Short Shrift?

Much as he worked tirelessly to make The Concert for George a hit, Eric Clapton nevertheless made some enemies Friday night.

In his overzealousness to put on a perfect program, some of the musicians claimed he over-rehearsed them. More than a few noticed Billy Preston's fingers were swollen from putting in eight-hour days, six days a week for nearly three weeks. But apparently Clapton felt that if he was paying Preston he should adhere to the schedule.

Same for the other famed sidemen whom Clapton brought to the show including Jim Keltner, Jim Horn, Klaus Voorman, Ray Cooper, and Emil Richards among them — all names that appear on countless solo Beatles albums.

Jools Holland, the English Paul Schaffer who put together the shows and was musical director, is said to be furious that Clapton didn't thank him from the stage for all his hard work.

Clapton also didn't do much to make Paul McCartney feel good. McCartney doesn't take to not being in the spotlight — he took over both The Concert for New York and the Queen's Jubilee shows, for example.

As a Beatle and a friend of Harrison's long before Clapton, McCartney felt that he should be prominently featured in the show. But after his introduction by Ringo Starr, McCartney's ukulele rendition of "Something" — which he does on his tour — was circumvented by Clapton taking over mid-song and finishing "Something" as a rock number.

McCartney then performed a beautiful version of "All Things Must Pass" and then was demoted to a piano on the side of the stage. I watched him pretty much not strike the keys for the balance of the show, clearly seething over his tertiary role.

Ringo must have known how he felt, because he went out of his way to split from the after-party before Paul and wife Heather arrived. The McCartneys spent the shortest time possible — just minutes — maybe anticipating Clapton's arrival. (He never showed though.)

estranged4life

12-06-2002, 08:12 PM

is that the UK press didnt know that Dhani Harrison isnt George's wife but his son and they were eating up the feeling between Eric & the others ("It seems George got younger and the rest of us aged"-Quote of the night from the tribute concert!!!!)...Really funny, And yer right about E.C. & Sir Paul...I like both just wished the "b.s." between them would quit or subside, Because as you said Eric was indeed closer to George than Paul...And he was his brother...Brian J.

madformac

12-07-2002, 01:47 PM

I'm really not going to get into an argument on Clapton and McCartney.

However,

I was not very impressed by Sir Paul's scruffy, jean wearing appearance at the Queen's jubillee gig compared to Eric's very smart tailored suit and clean appearance. It's a matter of respect and etiquette on the night.
I just get the feeling Macca thinks he's so big that he can do what he wants. He pushes this "I'm a down to earth" guy yet he never seems to conform to this view. It annoyed me that he decided not to tour Europe but instead added extra gigs to his U.S. tour because of the huge profit in the States he was making compared to a small profit from European shows. The man allegedly has over a £1,000,000,000 so he would rather play for money than for his fans? Looks like it. You would have to ask his accountants.

Eric Clapton has kept a low profile lately. He keeps his family life away from the media (unlike Paul) and as chiliD has said, Eric has not really spoken about George's death publicly and maybe, the aftershow party would have put him in a position where he would have to have talked about his feelings.

About the fact he was making the musicians work very hard in rehearsals, well, I guess this was a very personal thing for him and I'm sure he wanted it to be as well rehearsed and perfect as it could be. I bet Eric was playing eight hours a day and not moaning about it, just like Phil Collins was for the jubillee gig he directed.
Plus if Jools Holland (whom I really admire, amazing pianist and host) wanted a public thankyou from Eric, was he doing it all and giving his time up for George, his memory and his charities or for his own personal gain and recognition?

Also, unrelated to this I do feel McCartney's voice has not been very good this last year or two. Just my opinion on the great songwriting ex-Beatle.

:wavey: :wavey:

estranged4life

12-07-2002, 04:16 PM

"I just get the feeling Macca thinks he's so big that he can do what he wants. He pushes this "I'm a down to earth" guy yet he never seems to conform to this view. It annoyed me that he decided not to tour Europe but instead added extra gigs to his U.S. tour because of the huge profit in the States he was making compared to a small profit from European shows. The man allegedly has over a £1,000,000,000 so he would rather play for money than for his fans? Looks like it. You would have to ask his accountants."

I have to agree that what you said is true. Even though I went to his show I didnt spend any money except for the tickets ($67.50), And I sure wasnt even considering paying $150-$250 for the floor seats (The Rolling Stones tickets are even higher $90-$300) or buying merchandise (T-Shirts $35-$100, Some items were $700!!!)...People who have been fans for years have noticed that he has changed in a neagtive way since Linda passed away...A good example of that is the songwriting credits on the new "Back In The U.S." set; Gone are the classic "Lennon/McCartney" listings replaced with the "Composed by Paul McCartney & John Lennon". He seemed miffed about having to share credit for all these years...Could "greed" be a part of this also?

And I didnt understand why he didnt add any Europe dates to the "supposed" tour, But from what I have read that will be "supposedly" changing very soon (A tentative Europe tour is being rumoured...One show in Benidorm, Spain is soon to be officially announced along with gigs in small settings in/around the UK & Europe)

"I do feel McCartney's voice has not been very good this last year or two. Just my opinion on the great songwriting ex-Beatle."

His voice indeed doesnt have what it had when he toured & recorded the great "Tripping The Live Fantastic" 2 cd set...Also, I honestly think his touring band from '89 & '93 were a more solid musical unit than the current lineup (Robbie McIntosh & Hamish Stuart were a better combo than the current guitar team of Rusty Anderson & Brian Ray.). The new live album is missing something that his previous live efforts have...It's almost like "Painting By Numbers"...

I'm still waiting to see the video to see the video of the tribute show to see why everyone was upset at E.C., I didnt see what he did as wrong at all...George even said in an ol' GFPM November '92 (Great article/interview worth finding and reading-He said the last band album he enjoyed was Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms...To me that's music; good music played well without all the b.s." & he liked the Black Crowes & he also thought Gary Moore "Is brilliant, Just incredible"...) issue that E.C. was his "sort of" musical rehearsor/director for his Japan tour in 1991, So he would know the material more than anyone else and he probably wanted the show to sound great as in tribute of George...Brian J.

chiliD

12-08-2002, 02:22 AM

Hmmmm, my opinion about McCartney's current band has done a 180 since the "Concert For NY". When I watched that show, I thought, "WINGS was better than these guys" (I didn't think Wings was all that great live)...but after hearing a couple of great quality bootlegs and seeing the ABC special, I think these guys are the best of McCartney's touring bands (post-Beatles that is). I like Rusty Anderson's guitar playing...have for quite a while (I've met him...long, long ago...he & I have mutual friends in the music biz...so maybe that's tainting my judgement a bit.)

As long as Paul has Wix playing keyboards, though, he pretty much could've gotten those apes & chimps from his TV special to play the rest of the instruments and he'd sound good. :laugh:

estranged4life

12-08-2002, 12:39 PM

"As long as Paul has Wix playing keyboards, though, he pretty much could've gotten those apes & chimps from his TV special to play the rest of the instruments and he'd sound good."...LMAO!!! True, Very TRUE...Paul "Wix" Wickens is THE great keyboardist. Now he has to play 2 keyboard parts in concert since Linda passed away and he does the J-O-B, Brian J.

p.s.-I wonder why the bootlegs & the DVD of the current lineup sound great (Tampa 5/15/02 is AWESOME!!! Still waiting for the 5/13/02 Atlanta to arrive...) but the official Cd release of "Back In The U.S." is missing something? I actually listen to the Tampa show more than the official album...

CarneVaca

12-09-2002, 10:07 AM

Paul McCartney should have retired gracefully years ago. The man hasn't created an interesting piece of music since perhaps a couple of tunes on Tug of War. His Concert for New York appearance was embarrassing. That "Freedom" song was a stinky piece of drivel with words that couldn't have been more vacuous and meaningless. It was an insult to the spirit it meant to honor. And while I'm at it, let me add that I can't stand his arrogant wife.

McCartney was once a great songwriter, and he's undeniably a wonderful musician. But he was always too commercially minded, his music was always a few notches below his partner John's and his ego was always bigger than one of those supertankers that keep crashing into beautiful pristine shorelines. Sometimes, I wonder if John wasn't right when he said, "The only thing you done was Yesterday," or something like that.

Here's an example of McCartney's overblown ego and arrogance: All rock artists have agreements with all kinds of demands from venues for their shows, but here's one for MaCartney, which is among the most demanding I've seen:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mccartney1.html

Later, it is discovered that Ivory soap has animal fat content (You really have to click the link to understand the soap reference.)

McCartney, Rod Stewart, Elton John, Clapton and some of these other guys that have been around forever cranking out album after album remind me of the pathetic phase of the Rat Pack: When Dino and the Chairman, and even Elvis, made caricatures of themselves by turning into lounge singers. This is simply the 21st century iteration of the formerly-relevant-artist-turned-pathetic-joke. Also precariously getting close to this characterization is U2, which is especially grievous.

Hey, old farts, get the hell out of the way and retire. Make room for some of these brilliant new bands that don't get any airplay because you and your corporate backing keep cluttering up the airwaves.

Aaaah.... I feel much better now.

wondergirl9847

12-09-2002, 01:02 PM

Don't hold back next time, okay? ;):laugh:

I won't even get started on PC, because ya'll know I don't like the Bugs...but it's wierd to me how celebs "change" when they are THIS HUGE...I mean, J-Lo sings "I'm still Jenny from the block" even tho I got lots of money, an entourage, a big-as* house, a NOT SEXY fiance who gave me a ring that even a BLIND person can SEE!!, yada, yada, yada...they become "Untouchable". They say "We love the fans!" but do they go out of their way to be nice and hospitable to them, usually no.

Anywho....then I get to thinking, these celebs are treated like GODS AMONG MEN due to their managers, security, assistants, etc...look at how Anna Nicole's assistant is around her, she even got her face tattooed on her arm!! :eek: I know we put celebs we love on a pedestal too, it's our fault as well. I just wish they could be personable and get their head out of their butt because the fans are the people supporting their career, NOT managers, assistants, etc....

I'll hold back next time too, Carne. :laugh:

madformac

12-09-2002, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Paul McCartney should have retired gracefully years ago. The man hasn't created an interesting piece of music since perhaps a couple of tunes on Tug of War. His Concert for New York appearance was embarrassing. That "Freedom" song was a stinky piece of drivel with words that couldn't have been more vacuous and meaningless. It was an insult to the spirit it meant to honor. And while I'm at it, let me add that I can't stand his arrogant wife.

Everything I wanted to say but didn't! :laugh: :laugh:

I don't like Paul McCartney, or his wife or his ego. I do like some of his older material, although Beatle-wise I think Lennon was the genius in the group and George was my favourite anyway. Just my opinion.

The Ivory soap thing is very much as I stated earlier, he dosen't conform to his own views.

He is one of a number of high profile artists, lead by Madonna and J-Lo that seem to want to ask for the most unreasonable requests for a performance. I think they may see it as a competition "I'm more important, blah, blah, blah" , I just think they are all up their own a*ses so far they have lost touch with reality.

I have to give Eric Clapton some slack because he has semi-retired now and I see him developing into a BB King figure, happily playing blues numbers into his eighties. He doesn't seem to be as egocentric as most of them. He certainly was when he was younger, very much a cocky young punk, but I think his new wife and child have brought him some balance. He has expressed his concern at the way the music industry has changed and is much less interested in it generally it seems.

No doubt people will accuse Fleetwood Mac of just funding their pensions with the latest album and tour. The difference to me is that they, well, Lindsey, is pushing the band into new areas and doing it for personal satisfaction foremost as well as for financial gain, which I really believe is secondary. I hope Buckingham gets all the credit and praise he has deserved for so long.

:) :wavey:

wondergirl9847

12-09-2002, 02:47 PM

I love ya more and more every post! LMAO!!

I really do hope that LB gets his due for this album, so that the whole Tusk fiasco can be laid to rest!! I don't want them saying "Great, another Tusk, wierd, off-the-chain kind of album that tries to break through boundaries and no one appreciates it."

I mean COME ON, who doesn't want to be well off in life...raise your hand...anyone? No one? Okay, I rest my case. I do believe that music is the FM members' first love and the $$ is just a perk! LB is SO out of the spotlight that some people go "Lindsey Buckingham, who's she?" Grrrr!!!! If he was all about the $$, he would have retired already himself. He's got some more stuff to say.

sulamith

12-09-2002, 03:44 PM

My goodness! What happened to my little rant thread about Santana? haha!!

AND while we're ripping McCartney a new one.....

........his daughter designs the ugliest clothes ever to grace the exfoliated, polished, and bleached backsides of Hollywood! She only has recognition because of her name.

I guess dad taught his baby girl well!

Another thing about Mcartney....
I heard on the radio this morning that he is "opening up an old wound with Yoko Ono" by putting his name first on songwriting credits, and that Yoko said Paul always promised John he would credit the songs Lennon/McCartney, and supposedly Paul has been doing it as McCartney/Lennon. Yoko is pissed, Paul basically told her to jump if she feels froggy. Paul claims he wrote "Yesyerday" by himself, so he is going to credit himself first.

Anybody know any more about it?

CarneVaca

12-09-2002, 04:20 PM

Indeed, Paul wrote "Yesterday." In fact, most of the Lennon/McCartney songs were written individually, contrary to popular notions. Usually, he who sings lead wrote the song, though this is not 100 percent accurate. Whether he should be changing the songwriting credit at this late stage, especially when his partner is not around, smacks of disloyalty and pettiness.

I agree with MadforMac: John Lennon was the true genious. It becomes especially obvious how musically talented he was when you look at his solo stuff: It is disarmingly simple when it should be and complex when it needs to be. John had a keen sense of marrying the emotion to the music in just the right way.

Everyone thought Lennon was the difficult one, and indeed he was a difficult, complicated person, but McCartney is not the nice guy he wants us to believe he is.

chiliD

12-09-2002, 07:39 PM

As is the big debate at some Beatle boards...McCartney put his name first on the Beatle tunes included on the "Wings Over America" live album (released in 1976, while Lennon was alive), John never said squat. Lennon didn't give a **** whose name was first, it was all the business people back in 196whatever when the deal was first signed. If you look, all the "Lennon/McCartney" songs on their first album "Please, Please Me" were "McCartney/Lennon"...so f-ing what...they both get credit. Whose name is first is petty & irrelevant. If Paul wants his name first on the songs that are mainly his, so f-ing what. I say, let him credit them accordingly. Lennon was always just as annoyed at McCartney's name being credited on "Give Peace A Chance" as McCartney has been with John's being on "Yesterday" (John has more of a point since "Give Peace A Chance" wasn't even a "Beatle song")...it's a trade off...WE (the die hard Beatle fans) know who wrote what, it makes no difference to me whose name is first. Nowadays, the contributions that Harrison & Starr gave to the "Lennon/McCartney" songs would be enough for a co-write credit, but they've never really PUBLICLY said anything to that fact. How many songs & titles have been credited to being utterings by Ringo (the Yogi Berra of the Beatles) without Ringo getting any monetary reward for such (i.e. "A HArd Day's Night", etc).

estranged4life

12-09-2002, 07:54 PM

"How many songs & titles have been credited to being utterings by Ringo (the Yogi Berra of the Beatles) without Ringo getting any monetary reward for such (i.e. "A HArd Day's Night", etc)."

...LMAO!!! Ringo equated to the good ol' Yankee Yogi Berra, Oh well, Better to be Yogi than his son Dale (A washout as a major leaguer)...LOL!!!...Good one chiliD...Brian J.

Cristian

12-09-2002, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Paul McCartney should have retired gracefully years ago. The man hasn't created an interesting piece of music since perhaps a couple of tunes on Tug of War. Carne, I must disagree with you on this one. Using the very same philosophy that you always use in other discussion topics in this very same Forum, it's really simple: "if you don't like it, then don't buy it". But that must not necesarlly mean that sir Paul should retire now. There are thousands of people who don't believe so, and his last tour through the USA, Mexico and Japan has proven that he can still play good music, and sound great. And it still makes people happy. My girlfriend (a huge Paul fan herself) always tells me that there is no problem, since Paul is happy doing his music (we can always discuss if his music is what it used to be anymore, or he's sticking to his old classics because of the lack of material he has around later) and fans are happy, since those concerts were a class act and deserved at least some attention. So to many people is a very meaningful thing that Paul is still around. If it doesn't mean anything to you parcticularly, you can always choose not to buy the current album or if he appears in the radio, you can always change the station.

As for the second part of the quote, I strongly disagree. Sure, Driving Rain was overall mediocred, but he's written enough enjoyable tunes after Tug Of War to complete a full "Greatest Hits" album. Indisputable well crafted pop tunes like:

Through Our Love (Pipes Of Peace)
No More Lonely Nights (Give My Regards To Broad Street)
No Values (Give My Regards To Broad Street)
Not Such A Bad Boy (Give My Regards To Broad Street)
Only Love Remains (Press To Play)
Press (Press To Play)
Tough On A Tightrope (Press To Play CD)
Once Upon A Long Ago (Single)
Back On My Feet (w/ Elvis Costello, B-side of Once Upon)
My Brave Face (Flowers In The Dirt)
Put It There (Flowers In The Dirt)
This One (Flowers In The Dirt)
Hope Of Deliverance (Off The Ground)
Off The Ground (Off The Ground)
Golden Earth Girl (Off The Ground)
C'Mon People (Off The Ground)
The Song We Were Singing (Flaming Pie)
Somedays (Flaming Pie)
Calico Skies (Flaming Pie)
Little Willow (Flaming Pie)
Beautiful Night (Flaming Pie)
Try Not To Cry (Run Devil Run)
Heather (Driving Rain)
.........

just to name a few.

Song of the moment - The Ledge

Cristian

12-09-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by chiliD
WE (the die hard Beatle fans) know who wrote what, it makes no difference to me whose name is first. However, I find it stupid that such a deal that they had for so long has to be broken now... Why not sticking to the original songwriting credits, even if they are not always accurate. Sure, John didn't care, but it is a sign of... I don't know how to call it... respect? Less confusion? Whatever. I am a die hard Beatles fan, and I can always recognize (except for a couple of cases like "Every Little Thing") who wrote the song, or when they did a collaboration... so I like more the Lennon/McCartney songwriting credits and I feel that those things should not be touched. Period.

Nowadays, the contributions that Harrison & Starr gave to the "Lennon/McCartney" songs would be enough for a co-write credit, but they've never really PUBLICLY said anything to that fact. How many songs & titles have been credited to being utterings by Ringo (the Yogi Berra of the Beatles) without Ringo getting any monetary reward for such (i.e. "A HArd Day's Night", etc). To name but a couple of cases, if one's looking through that point of view, "We Can Work It Out" should be a McCartney/Harrison tune (since George suggested how the middle-eight should be played), and "Tomorrow Never Knows" should also feature Ringo's name since he suggested the title... ;)

Song of the moment - The Ledge

CarneVaca

12-09-2002, 09:57 PM

Both Cristian and Chili make good points. Chili, I agree with your "so what" argument. It shouldn't matter. But then again if it didn't, why should McCartney change the credits. And this is where I agree with Cristian, it smacks of pettiness to do it later.

As for your other point, Cristian, I agree with the rationale of don't like it, don't buy it. I haven't bought a Paul McCartney record in more than a dozen years. One exception: I bought the unplugged record and sold it later. I won't discourage anyone from buying Paul's music, just as I wouldn't discourage anyone buying Britney Spears records. If you like it, enjoy it. My point was that in my opinion he was once great, but now he is merely pathetic. And has been so for a while.

Look I'm a big Lennon fan. Just as I am a big Lindsey fan. McCartney just doesn't do it for me.

chiliD

12-10-2002, 11:22 AM

Carne,

I, too, am a big Lennon fan, but I've ALWAYS (well, since I first heard them when I was 6 years old...40+ years I think can be counted as an "always":shrug: ) a BEATLES fan...all four equally. But the equality didn't carry through their post-Beatles careers. They all came out smokin' with their first few rounds of post-Beatles albums. Then, in the late '70s, Paul went south...after "Venus And Mars, he took a big slide downhill. "Speed Of Sound"...UGH! (except for "Beware My Love"), "London Town", another UGH! Wings' swan song "Back To The Egg" signalled a promising upswing. Then came "McCartney II"...sometimes home demos should remain publicly unheard. "Tug Of War" was again promising, but "Pipes Of Peace" stopped that trend right away. The "Give My Regards To Broadstreet" album & movie were quirky yet yucky. (except for "No More Lonely Nights"). I DO think that Paul's been on a steady upswing since "Press To Play", though. Between that album and then the EP of "Once Upon A Long Ago", followed by the Choba A CCCP" album, then "Flowers In The Dirt", "Off The Ground", "Flaming Pie", "Driving Rain", (I haven't heard "Run Devil Run", so I didn't list it)...he's just been getting better and releasing, to me anyway, his best post-Beatles material EVER.

madformac

12-10-2002, 12:22 PM

The main issue I have with Sir Paul, apart from the ego thing, is his live voice rather than his work on the albums.

The only live thing I have heard lately that I thought he sung well was Blackbird at the Queen's jubillee concert. I thought his singing on Freedom live was truly awful. I have to say that his piano, guitar and bass work are still at a high level. It's just his voice. The concert for NYC made me cringe with embarassment as did Roger Daltrey's performance (don't get me started there).

I do agree with Cristian's "if you don't like it don't buy it" approach totally, I'm just giving my feelings on the way I feel about McCartney.

I'm not having a go at his writing or musical abilities which are without question, it's just his ego problems and that live voice.

On the positive side I did mention to ChiliD many months ago that McCartney's songs will stand the test of time far longer than Lennon's. John Lennon was a musical genius but McCartney's songs are more "mainstream" if you like, they certainly get more airtime on UK radio. John's work pushed the boundaries more than Paul's I feel, who had a more balanced approach to his writing.

:wavey:

estranged4life

12-10-2002, 12:28 PM

have you heard any of the "Imagine" sessions demos that are about? Highly recommended stuff on those cd's (Including stuff not on the Lennon Anthology set...)...Brian "Almost named after a Beatle" J.

madformac

12-10-2002, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by estranged4life
have you heard any of the "Imagine" sessions demos that are about? Highly recommended stuff on those cd's (Including stuff not on the Lennon Anthology set...)...Brian "Almost named after a Beatle" J.

No, I've not heard them yet.

They will be floating around on bootleg discs at record fairs but I haven't had the time to get to any record fairs for a while. I'll keep a lookout though.... :nod:

:wavey:

estranged4life

12-10-2002, 12:43 PM

if you can find them, Definately some great stuff, But George's demos are mindblowingly good (Highly recommended is the "The Making Of All Things Must Pass Sessions 1-3", I wonder how many of these demos will make the upcoming "George Harrison Boxed Set"???)...Brian "Named after THE Beach Boy" J.

CarneVaca

12-10-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by madformac
On the positive side I did mention to ChiliD many months ago that McCartney's songs will stand the test of time far longer than Lennon's. John Lennon was a musical genius but McCartney's songs are more "mainstream" if you like, they certainly get more airtime on UK radio. John's work pushed the boundaries more than Paul's I feel, who had a more balanced approach to his writing.

:wavey:

Hmmm, you may be right, only because Paul's songs are more mainstream. However, John's songs will always have a special place in the public consciousness because so many of them were so meaningful. Though Yesterday is the most covered song ever, I believe John's Imagine will go down as one of those timeless pop masterpieces that will continue to give people solace whenever another bout of senseless evil grips this crazy old world.

Also keep in mind that often it is that quirky song that breaks new ground that will never grow tiresome. Think of Yesterday and how different it was then for the Beatles, or The Rolling Stones' Sympathy for the Devil, and yes, even Go Your Own Way. As I recall, that is the only Fleetwood Mac song that was chosen for the Smithsonian's (anyway, I think it was the Smithsonian) 300 great pop tunes of the 20th century. Of course no one really thinks of Go Your Own Way as quirky now, especially since Tusk, but think about how different it sounded in 1977.

Chili, I should say that I forgot when writing that last post that I kind of enjoyed some of the Run Devil Run stuff. Hey, that old-time rockabilly stuff still gets my foot a-tappin'. So Sir Paul gets a point there. Aren't I generous?

Cristian

12-10-2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
My point was that in my opinion he was once great, but now he is merely pathetic. And has been so for a while. I do believe that he's going in a "downhill" process, or so. I mean, I loathed everything on Driving Rain except for "Heather" (the song, people, the song), I think it was just pure mediocrity adorned with synthesisers. But I still do think he can make some good music. At least when he's not trying that hard. Look at the tunes of Flaming Pie, he sounds terrific on the simpler ones, like "Calico Skies", "Little Willow", than on the other "more-ellaborated, pop-oriented" ones ("The World Tonight", "Young Boy").

Look I'm a big Lennon fan. Just as I am a big Lindsey fan. McCartney just doesn't do it for me. That makes a big difference... You wouldn't be the first one I know that is a Lennon fan and that Paul doesn't have any effect on them. I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I like solo works for both of them, with exceptions (McCartney II and a couple of others by Paul, Some Time In NYC and all the experimental stuff from John), but I am absolutely a George man myself. An that was waaay before he died. I believe he who was a good songwriter inside The Beatles became a genious with All Things Must Pass (good point about the demos, estranged4life, they are breath-taking indeed :)) and with his posterior albums, especially in overlooked gems like 33 & 1/3, George Harrison, Cloud Nine and even Brainwashed, an album that IMO should have gotten more attention than it did get. But then it was Paul's new CD that sold much more copies... Oh don't get me started on that issue...

Song of the moment - Talkin' To My Heart

Cristian

12-10-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by chiliD
he took a big slide downhill. "Speed Of Sound"...UGH! (except for "Beware My Love")I happen to enjoy "Warm And Beautiful" lots, but overall it's a very mediocre album... Stressed by the fact that even Linda gets to sing... Ugh, indeed. ;)

he's just been getting better and releasing, to me anyway, his best post-Beatles material EVER. So... another point of disagreement... I do think that Driving Rain is one of the most mediocre things he's ever released... And that's what started me to get a little afraid of where Paul could be doing. Run Devil Run was an extremelly well crafted work, looking at all rock and roll songs and singing them extraordinarily, adding a couple of new songs... It was authentic. Driving Rain was, to me, disappointing to say the least.

Song of the moment - Talkin' To My Heart

seteca

12-10-2002, 08:59 PM

I don't know anywhere near enough about Lennon/McCartney/Beatles to make an interesting addition to this discussion, but I do agree with two things that have been said here:

Madformac: yep, I though it was absolutely pathetic that McCartney decided to "wear what he's most comfortable in" for the Queen's Jubilee. If you've been asked to perform at a concert for the Queen, it's a privilege, doesn't matter who you are, or you think you are. As you quite rightly said, Eric Clapton had the decency to wear a very nice (99% sure it was black label Armani) suit, why couldn't Paul...?

CarneVaca: Yep, "Freedom" was, IMHO, one of the worst songs I've ever heard in my life. He said something like "we've only taken a couple of days to write this song".....and it SHOWED! It sounded like he came up with it on the way to the concert.......:rolleyes:

Two more things, firstly, "arrogant" is an understatement for his wife. Secondly, what's with all the make up Paul wears every time he's been in public for the past couple of years??? The guy who used to be a sex icon and one of the most "manly" celebs in the 60s now has his face layered with foundation and his eyebrows look totally plucked....!!:confused:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

tuigirl

12-11-2002, 04:00 AM

.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes:mad: can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

CarneVaca

12-11-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by tuigirl
.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes:mad: can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

You want Lindsey related? Paul McCartney sucks, and Lindsey doesn't. How's that? Don't like it, just move on to the next board.

Cristian

12-11-2002, 11:34 AM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No more comments from me. You said it all.

Song of the moment - Blow By Blow

chiliD

12-11-2002, 11:42 AM

.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

Then start a thread...this thread has its own life and flow, thanks for the positive addition to it.

Street Angel

12-11-2002, 11:56 AM

And some of you make fun of other posters discussing Stevie Nicks´ choice of dresses or her boyfriends? ;)

About Paul going downhill... Well, after my initial enthusiasm about "Driving Rain" in the first weeks after its release I must admit now I wish he would finally rely a bit less on the "With the Beatles, I wrote three songs in one afternoon" idea. This concept was an anecdote he *loved* to tell every journalist during his PR campaign for the album. PR professional that he is, he knew that the media would love to report about that approach (with all the post-Anthology adoration of everything Beatles), including all the principles that are being called "Beatle-esque". The way DR was described by himself was Paul´s attempt at selling the record as his version of the Beatles´ working methods ca. 1965 ("Rubber Soul" etc.)
What he consciously forgot was mentioning on the other hand the love for detail and careful work that made albums like "Sgt. Pepper" and "Abbey Road" so exceptional.

The trouble with some of the DR songs was... the three BEATLES songs in one afternoon didn´t sound like jam sessions captured on tape. They had memorable melodies, which is probably Paul´s biggest forte. Over the years since the Beatles broke up, it´s always been the same thing: When Paul is writing good melodies (lyrics are certainly a different matter) he often has someone or something to challenge him artistically. When he´s actually recording them, he often needs someone to stop him when he´s putting a bit too much gloss on them or more often, when he´s choosing the wrong songs. Some of his unreleased songs make you wonder why Paul made certain choices for his albums. On DR, it was the reverse problem. Nobody (especially David Kahne) MADE him finally add some gloss to the songs and more importantly, Kahne didn´t tell him that some of the songs might be called "spontaneous" but that that term doesn´t necessarily imply "made up on the spot and quickly recorded" or even equal "a good song".

I´ve always preferred the studio perfectionist McCartney who was working carefully on songs for albums like "Ram", "Tug Of War", "Press To Play" or "Flowers In The Dirt" (both composing and arrangement-wise). Sometimes he may have gone over the top (and you can´t rescue a bad song itself by long, hard studio work, as we know - that´s why I love Lindsey´s GOS, BTW - good songs AND dedicated studio work), but I still think "Driving Rain" was a nice and interesting experiment sound-wise, just like some of his other albums with the same idea ("Press To Play" or "McCartney II"). It didn´t entirely work out, but like I once said in another post - I prefer seeing him trying something new than to come up with a "Paul McCartney is re-writing his old hits" record.

Cristian, don´t worry - there should be hope. :D Remember "Wild Life"? It was followed by "Red Rose Speedway" and even better, "Band On The Run"... "McCartney II?" Followed by "Tug Of War"... if that pattern continues there should be some more good music coming from him. Apart from that, McCartney is far too competitive (even if he doesn´t need the money anymore) to watch another album crash commercially like DR did. Sometimes one of the challenges I was talking about above includes a commercial failure of one of his albums.

About McCartney´s solo career in general - sure, not everything lives up to the Beatles standards. But looking at his huge back catalogue, it´s a bit unfair to dismiss everything as mainstream junk. Of course the hit singles are remembered first and foremost. Take a deeper look into the material that was *not* an A-side, did not get the radio airplay like "Silly Love Songs" or "Ebony And Ivory" or was even hidden on some obscure non-album B-sides (admittedly another proof for McCartney´s lack of judgment sometimes). And John Lennon wasn´t always much better in that equation "mainstream = crap" either... "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" was a US No.1, as far as I can remember, yet I can´t say that this was one of his most glorious moments. Highly commercial music and no earth-shattering or at least philosophical revelations in these lyrics either - I enjoy the song anyway.
"Some people want to fill the world with silly love songs... and what´s wrong with that?" ;)

chiliD

12-11-2002, 12:49 PM

Take a deeper look into the material that was *not* an A-side, did not get the radio airplay like "Silly Love Songs" or "Ebony And Ivory" or was even hidden on some obscure non-album B-sides (admittedly another proof for McCartney´s lack of judgment sometimes).

Some big examples of this are:

"Let Me Roll It" (album track from "Band On The Run")
"Call Me Back Again" (album track from "Venus & Mars")
"Girls' School" (B-side of "Mull Of Kintyre")
"Name & Address" (album track on "London Town")
"Oh Woman Oh Why" (B-side of "Another Day")
"Coming Up" (the Wings live version being the single...MUCH better decision than releasing the "McCartney II" studio track...kind of the same thing as "Not That Funny"...the studio version, TO ME, is one of FMac's "bottom 10", but the live version rocks!! See? I got "Lindsey" involved!!! ;) )
"What's That You're Doing" (album track from "Tug Of War"...the OTHER duet with Stevie Wonder...MUCH better than "E&I", to my ears)

And John Lennon wasn´t always much better in that equation "mainstream = crap" either... "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" was a US No.1, as far as I can remember, yet I can´t say that this was one of his most glorious moments.

Even thought "WGYTTN" was credited to John Lennon, Elton's voice & overall "sound" seems to be in the forefront. If this had come out under Elton's name, I doubt anyone would've noticed that John Lennon even wrote the song, it sounds SO much like your run-of-the-mill Elton John song from that era (except the saxophone part was typical for a Lennon production of that era, too).

His "Woman" from Double Fantasy sound like it could've been a McCartney song from that era, too...for the appearance of John & Paul being poles apart philosophically, they were actually more alike than most people will admit to.

Cristian

12-11-2002, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Street Angel
What he consciously forgot was mentioning on the other hand the love for detail and careful work that made albums like "Sgt. Pepper" and "Abbey Road" so exceptional.Street Angel, nice to see you! Agree with the vision that you just posted. Paul used the very same approach with the Run Devil Run tracks, but, to me, it reached a much more powerful status since it was a pure rock and roll album, without major pretentions. Driving Rain, to me, seems unfinished and poorly-produced.

I´ve always preferred the studio perfectionist McCartney who was working carefully on songs for albums like "Ram", "Tug Of War", "Press To Play" or "Flowers In The Dirt" (both composing and arrangement-wise). He obiously spent lots of time recording the Ram album, which remains my favorite of his. Ellaborating the melodies, working on the arrangements and the vocals, perfectioning the instruments, looking for new sounds... Something that he had while with The Beatles and apparently has lost now.

Cristian, don´t worry - there should be hope. :D Remember "Wild Life"? It was followed by "Red Rose Speedway" and even better, "Band On The Run"... "McCartney II?" Followed by "Tug Of War"... if that pattern continues there should be some more good music coming from him. Apart from that, McCartney is far too competitive (even if he doesn´t need the money anymore) to watch another album crash commercially like DR did.One could only hope that after the big failure that Driving Rain was, Paul tries to write something more cohesive and sincere and comes up with a new little gem like those ones you mentioned. But I'm still hopeless, I tell you, hopeless... ;)

About his songs not always being the best choices for singles, I wholeheartedly agree! Not even "Maybe I'm Amazed" (my favorite song of his) was chosen as a single from the first album! And to prove it more, my favorite songs are not at all singles:

Every Night (McCartney)
Junk (McCartney)
Oh Woman Oh Why (B side to Another Day)
Too Many People (Ram)
Dear Boy (Ram)
Long Haired Lady (Ram)
Some People Never Know (Wings Wild Life)
Tomorrow (Wings Wild Life)
Little Woman Love (B side to Mary Had A Little Lamb)
Big Barn Bed (Red Rose Speedway)
Little Lamb Dragonfly (Red Rose Speedway)
No Words (Band On The Run)
Let Me Roll It (Band On The Run)
1985 (Band On The Run)
You Gave Me The Answer (Venus & Mars)

etc. etc. etc....

Song of the moment - Blow By Blow