Lindsey Buckingham vs. Mark Knophler

[jeffles]

Fingerpicking is not the guitar style of choice for most rock guitar players, but two of the finest guitarist of the modern rock era use their fingers rather than a pick. They are Lindsey Buckingham and Mark Knophler. For anyone who isn't familiar with the latter, he is the guitarist/vocalist/songwriter of Dire Straits. As well as leading that band, Knophler has performed and produced for others, as well as recording his own solo albums.
I've often thought about who is actually a better guitar player, and its a tough one. I don't know if i can say who is better, since they are both tremendous. LB may be a better all around musician, which includes production and arrangment, and his voice is better than Knophler's, but I can't see how he's a better guitar player. I would place them on the same scale as guitarists.
I'd like to hear other people's thoughts are, keeping in mind that this is a LB message board and the opinions may be slightly biased...

[tuigirl]

Hmmm..I don't think you can compere either one against the other, their style of music is quite different and Lindsey appears to have many more strings to his bow as you have already suggested.The one thing I do find interesting, is the difference in technique with the actual fingers. Mark almost appears arthritic, whereas Lindseys fingers are much more open and fascinating to watch with that "how does he do that " look about them! Either way, the music is what counts and it's pretty good from both but hardly comparable.:D (my loyalities lie with the latter though!!!)

[seteca]

(Ok, not to be picky but I just wanna say that his name is spelt Mark Knopfler, not Knophler!:eek: :p )

I think that, although Fleetwood Mac and Dire Straits aren't exactly galaxies apart when it comes to music genre, Lindsey and Mark's style and intentions (if that makes any sense!) are very different. Lindsey's eternal method of Travis fingerpicking is essential to many of his songs, where you really need the ability to produce three pretty much independent bass, rhythm and melody sections from one guitar (e.g. The Chain, Big Love & Go Insane acoustics, Landslide, World Turning etc etc), whereas as far as I can tell (I obviously don't know anything near as much about Mark), Mark uses a freestyle fingerpicking method, which isn't really essential to any of his songs, but still sounds awesome.
I've always thought of Mark as a rock guitarist who uses his fingers simply because he prefers to use them to a pick, and Lindsey as a bluegrass-turned-rock guitarist, who seems to have ingeniously kept his bluegrass-rooted sound and style in his very much rock/pop dominated songs.
Mark is of course also nothing less than a musical genius (IMO), Sultans of Swing....Brothers In Arms.....need I say more??:)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[Justine]

It's an interesting topic. I really like both of them very much. THey are both excellent guitarists and very unique. I'm not sure i agree with you that Lindsey's voice is better - they both have very distinctive "imperfect" voices that have great emotion and depth, but I think it's definitely okay to disagree on such a thing. They're both awesome, as you pointed out and I hope they'll continue to make music for many years to come. :)

[bjk3047]

Originally posted by seteca
Lindsey's eternal method of Travis fingerpicking is essential to many of his songs, where you really need the ability to produce three pretty much independent bass, rhythm and melody sections from one guitar (e.g. The Chain, Big Love & Go Insane acoustics, Landslide, World Turning etc etc)
Lindsey as a bluegrass-turned-rock guitarist, who seems to have ingeniously kept his bluegrass-rooted sound and style in his very much rock/pop dominated songs.

Well put! That's what I would've said had I known how to put it into words.
-Brian

[madformac]

Here's my take on this as these two are my favorite guitarists anyway.

As far as vocal range is concerned Lindsey has it it the bag. MK's vocal range is fairly limited, although he uses what he has very well.
Both of them produce and arrange music as well, I would give Knopfler the edge here because although Lindsey's skills are amongst the finest, Mark Knopfler has written and produced numerous film scores including Local Hero and Wag The Dog (starring Anne Heche, if Lindsey is reading this!) and his latest work was on the new TV series of Auf Wiedersehen Pet over here in the UK. Lindsey's approach to arranging is amazing though, I have to say.
As far as guitar technique is concerned Lindsey uses a Travis picking style (three fingers and thumb with the thumb driving the bass and rhythm) and sometimes "frails" the strings, a la banjo style with his fingers as well. Knopfler uses what seems to be a kind of awkward style with his thumb doing the majority of the work and using his fore and middle fingers, looking like they are glued together at times to pick the top E and B (thinest two) strings. His palm seems to stick close to the guitar bridge at most times too.
I play with a style similar to Knopfler's although I do move my right hand a lot more than he does and I do sometimes use my ring finger as well. It works for me.

Both of these guys are self taught and neither ever had a lesson which explains their unorthodox styles when playing electric.

Both guitarists play amazing instruments. Lindsey's Turner 1CLB is quite incredible for a single pickup guitar. Knopfler's Pensa-Suhr (see my avatar) is also quite ridiculous with it's range of tones.

***Seteca, I eventually decided to get John Suhr to build me a guitar similar to the one he built MK instead of getting a Turner 1CLB.***

Anyway, I think there really is nothing between them as artists. Knopfler seems more well known which is odd because Fleetwood Mac are far bigger than Dire Straits ever were.
I personally would give MK the title of best player only because I have seen him play things that I as a guitarist cannot grasp and everything I have seen Lindsey play I can understand from a guitarists point of view (even if I can't play like him! Ha!)

Hope this long, pointless ramble helps!

[wondergirl9847]

Mark is quite impressive, but I don't listen to his music that much. I do love Sultans of Swing. I would have to say Lindsey's breathy, sexy voice is WAY better to my ears than Mark, but that's all about opinion. :nod: Don't forget that Mark also scored The Princess Bride, excellent movie and excellent soundtrack!! (BTW, I can play part of the theme on my guitar!! WOOHOO! :laugh: ) I PREFER Lindsey as a singer AND as a guitarist, but Mark is great.

[seteca]

Originally posted by bjk3047


Well put! That's what I would've said had I known how to put it into words.
-Brian

lol...:laugh:....thanks Brian...believe me I'm not usually that articulate...but LB gets my maximum respect so I try hard to be as expressive as possible!!:)...!!

Lindsey Buckingham.....we're not worthy..!! we're not worthy!!lol:laugh:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[chiliD]

It's not a competition...please, no wagering. :lol:

Knopfler comes from, seemingly, a more country/jazz...um...Chet Atkins influenced finger-style, whereas Lindsey's Travis picking style is more of a Appalachian bluegrass roots thing. Apples & Oranges.

Let's really mix it up and toss in a third option of a WELL-KNOWN guitar player who doesn't use a pick and has a unique style of playing with his fingers that comes from neither of the same roots as Buckingham or Knopfler...but from rockabilly...his idols were Cliff...uh..um...oh, crap, can't think of his last name right now...but he was Gene Vincent's guitar player...oh, yeah, Cliff Gallup, Eddie Cochrane, & Duane Eddy; and despite being influenced by those late '50's rockabilly guys, went on to take psychedelic blues-rock, jazz/rock fusion, and techno jazz/rock to new heights...was most well known for being Eric Clapton's replacement in the Yardbirds...the one...the only...


...JEFF BECK.

[Justine]

getting a bit off-topic but I wanted to add that the Dire Straits song "Romeo and Juliet" is amazing and has always been one of my favorites. The Indigo Girls did a killer cover version of it on their album "Rites of Passage" aswell. As a mtter of fact, I'm not even sure which version I like better - it's very hard to choose. I love Mark's voice, but the Indigo Girls really are great on this song - and their version is extremely passionate and intense.

Chili - about Jeff Beck, I have heard a bit of his guitar work over the years and I thought it was amazing. I must admit though I seem to have a tendency to listen to singer/guitarists more than just guitarists - Jeff's guitarwork is world-class but I have heard that he is not considered much of a singer? Would you agree?

Justine :)

[chiliD]

I think he's credited on lead vocals on only about 3 or 4 songs in his entire career. :) So, yeah...he's not much of a singer...guitar-SLINGER, yeah, though.

[Skylark]

Very interesting Thread...Lindsey is the first
guitar player I could "understand"!!!:eek:But...I
also think there are many, awesome players
with unique guitar playing moves! :D :blob2:

seteca...I agree with -Brian...Could not say IT
any better! My feelings exactly! Cheers! Sky :)

[madformac]

Don't forget as well that Lindsey really needs to get as full a sound as he can from one guitar and although he has Neale Heywood and Ray Lindsey helping him out on tour, Fleetwood Mac are really a one guitarist band. Lindsey's Travis picking style is essential to this without it this wouldn't work.
Lindsey's amazing ability to fingerpick multiple notes at a time makes you forget this now and again, and of course,when he left Fleetwood Mac in 1987 he was replaced by two guitarists. Says a lot about the man's ability.

If you listen to Knopfler live he is mainly a lead player on stage and really doesn't play a great deal of rhythm all by himself, although this is not the case in the studio.

Awesome talents, both of them.

[jeffles]

not only was Lindsey replaced by two guitarists in 1987, he was replaced by 2 truly exceptional guitarists. Rick Vito has been one of the most prolific studio guitarists of the 70's and 80's. His best moment was the awesome slide guitar solo on Bob Segar's song "Like a Rock"...

[chiliD]

Ok, fact...two guitar players joined when Lindsey left.

MYTH: it took two guitar players to replace Lindsey.

Billy was asked to joined because his VOCAL range was similar to Lindsey's. Billy knew that his guitar prowess wasn't up to the standards of Fleetwood Mac's needs, so Mick asked Rick Vito, who Billy'd been working with prior to joining the Mac and who Billy (strongly) suggested they add, too. It was, in essence, a similar situation to 1975...Billy was asked to join, he basically said, as long as Rick joins, too, we're a team, kind of thing. Which worked out well, in that they got the concert set material worked out in quick fashion.

So, in reality, Billy replaced Lindsey's voice, Rick Vito replaced Lindsey's guitar...that Billy played guitar was basically a bonus, but wasn't an essential factor in "replacing Lindsey".

I just wish the whole "It took two guitar players to replace Lindsey" BS would just stop, because it ISN'T true.

[Mari]

hm, how about, it took two musicians to replace Lindsey?;)

[madformac]

ChiliD is correct of course, Billy Burnette was basically the male voice of Mac during that period and his playing was mainly rhythm(from what I have seen, anyway, since there has been pretty much a Fleetwood Mac blackout for the past 15 years in the UK!) and Vito took on the more serious guitar work. So two "men" rather than "guitarists" replaced Lindsey, sorry to "offend" anybody.

The point I was clumsily trying to get across was that to find a single guitarist with Lindsey's skills in terms of playing and, of course, to sing with such power at the same time would have been pretty difficult, impossible even, to find in such a short period of time. The job fell to two men.

And so then Mac happened to have two guitarists as well which can't be a bad thing in the bargain. But, even with two men playing the axe they were never going to get "that" sound that Lindsey pulls off because their styles are so different. Vito and Burnette are very talented men but not "technically" in the same league as Lindsey.


* Any Ledgie easily offended, don't read the next line!!!* :eek:


It's irrelavent to me because in my opinion Knopfler is a better guitarist than any of them..... Full stop.
:eek:

[chiliD]

Vito and Burnette are very talented men but not "technically" in the same league as Lindsey.

:distress: :eek: :shocked: :distress:

I don't think you meant this LITERALLY did you?

You're not REALLY saying that you think due to Lindsey's unique playing technique that automatically makes him "technically SUPERIOR" to Rick Vito, or anyone else who uses a more traditional technique, for that matter, are you?

:mad: :distress:

Again, the comparison is like comparing apples to...

...nah, I'm tired of that one...

...like comparing sushi rolls to burritos. :]

If his technique is the equivalent of two or more players at the same time, then how is having FIVE (count 'em: Liza, Janet, Steve, Neale, & Lindsey himself) guitarists on his own solo tour?? :o

[madformac]

Not literally Mr.D no,

Did I say Superior? No I did not. :mad:

Technically you can only rate Lindsey against men using the same or similar styles which I guess is why this Buckingham vs Knopfler thread started in the first place.

If you read into the bit before the "technically" sentence, when I said their styles were different this is what I mean.

Take God himself (no offense to anybody with religous beliefs reading), Eric Clapton uses a much more traditional style than Lindsey and he is just as amazing, sometimes more so. You can say he is in the same league as Vito, just as you could say Lindsey is in the same league as Knopfler, Merle Travis, Chet Atkins and other fingerpickers, and before you say it Chili, I know their styles vary as do their roots and musical backgrounds, this is simply about placing guitarists within their leagues, It is upto you to decide who is top of that league.

As for Lindsey having five guitarists on tour with himself, that is pure indulgence!

Chili, no reply to my last statement??? ;) ;)

[Carole Ann]

Lindsey is clearly NOT in the same league, "technically" or otherwise, as Rick Vito.

Truer words were never spoken.:nod:

[madformac]

I personally prefer Lindsey's playing to Vito's and yes, I personally think he is better, that is my own opinion and I am entitled to it.

However, I really have not heard a great deal of Vito's work and Lindsey has spent the last 10 years sat in his garage improving his playing abilities instead of getting out on the road and performing. Who really knows?

Give me ten years off work to practice and I might be as good as he is. Who really knows?

In fact, Lindsey has spent ten years recording and rerecording his guitar work and overdubbing everything he has worked on in that period. Is he really as good as he was live five years ago? Only time will tell....

By the way, Carole Ann, you don't state which guitarist you prefer.

Is it Vito???

[Carole Ann]

I personally prefer Lindsey's playing to Vito's and yes, I personally think he is better, that is my own opinion and I am entitled to it.

You're not YELLING at me, are you? I'm not even close to being belligerent. Apologies if you thought I was.:rolleyes:

[madformac]

No Carole Ann, I am not yelling at you, I only asked which of them you prefer. Sorry if you read into the rest and thought I was provoking you. That lot is for the benefit of Mr.D :laugh:

[Carole Ann]

No Carole Ann, I am not yelling at you

We certainly can't have any yelling going on -- ha!

And I prefer The Lovely and Talented Mr. Vito. But that's just me...:p

[chiliD]

Yeah, yeah...Buckingham sits alone in some "Rain Room" with the same damned ideas he's had since he was 17, trying to pawn off on us (if we ever get to hear them, that is) in different formats, only due to the upgrades in recording technology do we think they're something....oooooh....BRAND NEW! He's been shoving the same riff from "Stephanie" down our throats for almost 30 years!! (first with "Eyes Of The World", then with "Bang The Drum"...what next?). He plays a variation on a theme of a guitar solo on "Frozen Love", "I'm So Afraid", "Tango In The Night", and now "Murrow"...what song is going to have that same damned solo in it on the new Mac album?? 1/2 his songs on "Out Of The Cradle" were reworkings of songs he used for "Tango In The Night" ZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzz...

...I just don't see HOW anyone can grow, left to their own devices...music is to be shared...with an audience, with other musicians...playing music was intrensically invented to be a COMMUNAL activity, not a solitary activity. I know from personal experience, the times I grow as a musician and a guitar player is from the experience of playing with other musicians...the biggest ruts I get into are when I'm just playing guitar by myself. All that time alone in his studio, I think, has been detrimental to Lindsey's growth...sure HE may think he's grown because he's found a new way to present his old & moldy ideas onto a public that either isn't musical enough to KNOW that he's doing that, or just blindly reverent to think every note out of his guitar is being touched by something divine...like the debate I had a while back with a Ledgie over his song from the GoS stuff called "Twist Of Fate"...I'm not sure if that person was musical or not, but they couldn't hear that it's a direct offspring (as opposed to exact clone) of the ideas Lindsey used in "Second Hand News" (and was adamant about not hearing it), which seemed OBVIOUS to me (and quite a few others, as well)

Vito, on the other hand, experiments with NEW ideas on a nightly basis being out on the ROAD 200+ dates a year with a variety of different artists, as well as his OWN shows. He has the fire of Stevie Ray Vaughan, the sensitivity of Peter Green, the blues background of John Lee Hooker, and the versatility of Eric Clapton.


:blob2: :blob2: :blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

[madformac]

Originally posted by Carole Ann


I prefer The Lovely and Talented Mr. Vito. But that's just me...:p

Lovely? This debate seems to be turning sexual in nature! Ha!

I would class Halle Berry as lovely :D ,talented as well.

Liddy Buck and Vito are talented. But then this is from a male point of view. Any other comment could be misenterpreted! Ha!



:laugh:

[Carole Ann]

...sure HE may think he's grown because he's found a new way to present his old & moldy ideas onto a public that either isn't musical enough to KNOW that he's doing that, or just blindly reverent to think every note out of his guitar is being touched by something divine..

It's interesting to get a take on all this from a musician's point of view (both chili and mad...) as opposed to a fan's.

----
"I would class Halle Berry as lovely, talented as well. "
----
Something we can agree on - YAY!:nod:

[madformac]

ChiliD!!!!

A bit on the cutting side but probably true, How many death threats are WE going to get???

The only way any artist grows musically is with interacting with other musicians, learning other styles, accepting different ideas and sometimes adapting to them. Only by gigging or sharing a studio with other like minded individuals can this be achieved. The Beatles anyone? To name just one instance.
Lindsey, musically may have gone the way some people have gone with mental illness, without wishing to upset anybody close to someone mentally ill, It is known that if a person is in an enviroment on their own for too long, certain mental and emotional traits occur. People become withdrawn and cannot interact with others in a "normal" way. Has this happened musically with Lindsey? His version of Here Comes The Sun has made me wonder.

Peter Green.

Does anyone think that he could be where he is, mentally, today if he spent the last five years in a studio? I don't.
Spending so much time on the road with Splinter Group has done wonders for him. It has healed him mentally to a point he would NEVER have got to if he was not on the road. His slide playing is at times amazing now, regardless of his mental state.

:)

[chiliD]

At this point, I think the only thing that would get Lindsey out of his "cocoon" would be to join some sleazy classic rock cover band and play dive bars 5 nights a week for 15 years. Rattle his cage, make him relate to "the common man" for a while. :) Let HIM deal with all the cat calls for "Free Bird" & "Smoke On The Water" 100 times a night! HA! That'll show him!

[Carole Ann]

How many death threats are WE going to get???

No kidding, you guys. At this point, I think it's best to chime in with An Official Denial that I don't know either one of you! Never even heard of LB. Nope, not me. (And I think you two have probably sent our poor Skylark into some sort of swoon with your comments about LB! Don't worry Sky - NOBODY could be a better fan of Lindsey's than you. These guys don't stand a chance in a ring with you! ):laugh:

[madformac]

Lindsey got out of his "cocoon" long enough to help out Tom Petty didn't he, looks like he's crawled back into it before anything remotely Mac based leaked out!
Maybe we could get an idea what Lindsey's gonna release with Fleetwood Mac by listening to Petty's new album, Lindsey's riffs on that won't be too dissimilar will they?

Maybe Lindsey should spend some time with Eminem he seems to like what he's doing. Could inject some new life into Buck, maybe he would even bleach his hair! :laugh: :laugh:

We all want some fresh work from Lindsey, not something as fresh as Dodo s$*t! Come on Mr.Buckingham, prove us wrong!:] :]

[chiliD]

One thing's for sure, Petty will release two or three albums before we see a new Fleetwood Mac album! :)

At least, with playing with "Mr. Canplayeverysongintheworld" Benmont Tench, Lindsey'll pick up a few things from working with them...as much as they'll learn a few things about record production from Lindsey.

If "Walls (Circus)" from the "She's The One" soundtrack is any indication of how this collaboration will work out, I'm almost looking forward with more anticipation to Petty's new album than I am for Fleetwood Mac's. :nod:

[wondergirl9847]

Well, I LOVE Lindsey, he amazes ME with his passionate guitar playing, and even INSPIRED ME to pick up the instrument. That's all I need to show ME that, in MY opinion, Lindsey is MY favorite guitarist. No one else I have heard so far has captured the essence I hear in Lindsey's playing. If he redoes the same old guitar "theme", then so be it, as long as I love it, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone else thinks. Thank you and goodnight. :wavey:

BTW, I bolded all the me and I's to make a point, it's all about OPINION in my humble opinon. :laugh: We can argue who's better, faster, greater, but we love who we love and that's that. We have to respect each other's opinons! :nod:

[madformac]

well put wondergirl9847, everybody has a view.

Remember, opinions are like a"£holes, everybody has one.

My "Jerry Springer" final thought tonight on this matter is that Lindsey is a musical genius, undisputable, but he does need to give us something new to say WOW! to, not release something recycled, he believes in cycles doesn't he (?). Many people view him as a true great, which he is.

This thread was originally about Buckingham vs Knopfler.

Mark Knopfler is a better guitarist than Lindsey, maybe THE best, you will have to listen to his live work to judge him. Lindsey is a better musician, with all the areas it entales than Mark is and I prefer to listen to his work than Knopfler's. We can chase our tails all day over this but it's 2:20am here and I'm going to bed.

In the words of LB "That's enough for me"

Sweet dreams. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[seteca]

[Edit to post: I started writing this over an hour ago, when the thread was only 2 pages long, I see now that it's 3, so this is in reply to all thoughts and posts posted in the first 2 pages. Also, I want to make it clear that everything written below is MY OPINION
- I enjoy and appreciate reading the opinions of all Ledgies, and love discussing and arguing points regarding FM and LB...it's the reason why I signed up to The Ledge in the first place.]

Ok, before deaththreats start roaming around the place I just wanna get my say in on this aswell...:p

On the subject of Billy Burnette and Rick Vito, I haven't heard anything even near enough of their music to have a fair opinion on them as guitarists, so I won't try to compare them to LB in any way.

However, Lindsey Buckingham is somebody I can say a few things about.

In my humble opinion, and as a member of that strange breed of humans known as "guitarists"......;)

There's nothing that ChiliD or Madformac have written that I would massively disagree with, regarding the similarity factor in Lindsey's songs and guitar solos etc etc.

[[many similarities in many of the guitar riffs and solos he puts in, in both studio and live songs, and also many general musical similarities in many of his songs. ChiliD made a pretty good list of these songs in a thread here on the LB forum not so long ago, but even then I remember that despite the large number of named songs, it wasn't complete...there were still some missing that I had noticed.]]]

BUT

Ok, so to a more musical (or musically minded) fan, LB's work on many occasions lacks originality....but....is that so bad (in fact, is it even a problem on any level), if it still sounds great...?? Which, IMO....it always does. I'll give an example.....I really like the original version of Big Love, in fact I'm probably one of the few people who likes it more than the live version, and you don't exactly have to be Mozart to notice the similarity between it and Doing What I Can from OOTC...but...I ALSO LOVE Doing What I Can......and I hate breaking songs down to its individual parts for analysis (because with any song I firmly believe the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts, as Lindsey would say!), but yes, musically, if I analysed why I like it, it would be for the same reasons as Big Love. However, I don't sit down and go "[3CPO Voice with R2D2 squeaking in the background]Hmm....yes...that guitar solo at the end gets 8 out of 10....the vocals aren't that great so they get 5 out of 10...but the bass and drums are killer...they get 9 out of 10....therefore....conclusion I give this song 8 out of 10....therefore by logic that means I like it!"..........!!!!

What I'm trying to say is....if I hear something and I like it, then I like it. I don't try to figure out if it's worthy and original enough for me to like it. Yes, as a guitarist, I can clearly see that I'm So Afraid, Frozen Love, Tango In The Night and Murrow all share very similar (in many ways) guitar solos.....but.....just look at these four songs that I've just named.....these are (again, IMO, as with obviously everything I've written seeing as it has my screenname next to it!!) BRILLIANT songs.....it's songs like these which have caused me to sign up for boards like The Ledge and wait in massive frustration as to when I'm going to get something new from this incredibly talented man:

Instead of looking at it negatively, and saying that 30 years ago Lindsey came up with a bunch of really good ideas and has simply continued using them and thought of nothing new since then by using ever-improving technology to "cover his tracks", I would say 30 years ago Lindsey came up with a bunch of really good ideas which would become one of the single most easily identifiable sounds in rock history - the sound of the Rumours-era Fleetwood Mac - that, to me, immediately makes him a musical genius. He then managed to maintain this sound for 30 years using ever-improving technology, which again is incredible- just because he's using technology, does not make him any less of a musical genius - if you give the world's best Cray computer to a baboon there's pretty much nothing the baboon is gonna do with it - it takes a lot to be able to use technology to immaculately keep your signature sound like that. Listen to Gold Dust Woman from the Rumours LP....it sounds like it's from the 70s.....all mysterious........then listen to Gold Dust Woman from the Dance CD, and it sounds totally modern (i.e. the average Dance-viewer I'm pretty sure did not tune in and say "Oh what is this 70s crap???") and yet it's managed to perfectly keep that 70s mysterious "druggy" sound about it - and how has he done that.....? If you want to break it down musically: using the same two chords but with lots of reverb and about a 440ms delay. If you want it simply, I would say: incredible talent.

Lindsey has managed to perfectly preserve his sound and musical atmosphere for 30 years - a sound and feeling which has accumulated millions of fans. Yes, as a guitarist I can sit down and try to figure which scales and riffs and licks he's repeated where (and it's not too challenging if you choose to do that with Lindsey's songs but so what??), or just as somebody who isn't deaf I can notice the similarites (however obvious or subtle) between many of his songs......OR........I can sit down, relax and listen to music at its absolute finest: instead of getting to Doing What I Can and shouting "Oh come on!! Who're you trying to fool Lindsey!! Aggghhh!!!! :eek::p "...........I DO think "Yea!!! This song absolutely ROCKS!!!!!" When I listen to "I'm So Afraid" I don't think "AAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!...this solo....it's Frozen Love all over again!!!:confused: "......instead I pick up my guitar, plug it in and play the solo, and each and every time feel the absolutely awesome power of one his greatest songs.

I don't think I'm being naive....I'm just a really big fan of the emotions and sense of the sound which he has kept through the years. Pure and simple. If the stuff he did in '73 was his only original work (which, by the way, I do not believe for even one second to be true), then I love it, and I'll have it every year till the day I die and if he makes more music using that same structure, chords, scales, riffs, licks, and most importantly, sound, then I'll have that too....a million times over. If it takes him 150 years "cocooned" in his studio to give me "Frozen Love Part 25" then I will happily (although impatiently!! ;) ) wait for him.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[wondergirl9847]

WOW, great job. :thumbsup: I agree, I really really LOVE chocolate ice cream, and OMG, I LOVE chocolate almond (tweaked chocolate ice cream) and OH YEAH, GIVE ME SOME Mint Chocolate Chip!!!!! I love them all, yes, they are basically, the same thing, just tweaked a bit, but GOOD GOD ALMIGHTY, they are all DELICIOUS!! :nod::thumbsup: But, as you said in your disclaimer, it's all about opinion. Some of us cats love Knopfler better, some of us love Lindsey, that's what makes the world go round...VARIETY! :D::cool:

[Carole Ann]

Thank God someone finally straightened us all out. We were inching distressingly close to an interesting give-and-take amongst our three resident musicians. Can't be havin' THAT!:rolleyes:

I wish mad, seteca and chili could've continued your exchanges; toe-ing the company line will keep you out of trouble, though, so a good, informative, INTERESTING (thanks, guys...finally!) thread has been brought to its knees by everyone agreeing to disagree. And just when it was getting good. :distress:

[chiliD]

Yeah, it's gotten a little too "politically correct" hasn't it.:rolleyes:

[Les]

You dominated a conversation and expressed all of your opinions with folks who didn't throw tantrums, and although disagreed with aspects of your opinion, respected it anyway. Yeah, that's a real hardship. I don't know how you can live with it. ;)

[Carole Ann]

I'm thinking "Trouble in Trying Times," maybe...

:] :] :] :] :] :] :]

[Les]

I was thinking more of a Carly Simon tune...

[Carole Ann]

Bah-dah-BUM.

[madformac]

I could add a few more interesting points to this debate...... But I'm not going to. I have given my word.

Don't want to rock the boat, somebody might get sea sick!

In the spirit of all the great politicians, "No Comment".

Political correctness and all that.....



But then again, who knows!!!! ;) ;) ;) , One of these days.....:] :]

[Les]

Lots of accusations of "death threats" and political correctness abound...and yet the conversation could continue if the interested parties wanted it to. Why not continue?

[sodascouts]

Well, this is thought-provoking! Just today I was listening to "Loving Cup" in the car and thinking how it reminded me of "I'm So Afraid" in some ways.

I agree that Lindsey has isolated himself too much. I think he's always had a bit of a self-indulgent streak ever since he made a truckload of money off of Rumours and started to become obsessed with, ironically enough, NOT sounding as if he was trying to repeat past success. It's like he was trying so hard not to seem like he was appealing to mainstream masses that he dedicated himself to the other extreme. "This is about what I think is genius and I'm the only one I have to please and everybody else can just go to hell!" It's so weird, though, because even as he did this he seemed to really want everybody to eat it up regardless, and seemed so crushed that his fans weren't "ready" for his genius. (By the way, comments like that have always made me feel like a loser, as I thought Rumours was better than Tusk). Ah, Lindsey, so fiercely defiant and so desperately needy at the same time!

Not to say that one shouldn't be true to himself. Of course Lindsey shouldn't produce crap just to appeal to the masses. Indeed, I do believe that "Out of the Cradle" (my fave LB album) was dead-on in that he resisted that compulsion to discard anything that sounded mainstream.....but I think years in the studio alone might make that compulsion creep up on him once again. I think that's why I've always, as a whole, liked his FM stuff better (with exceptions, of course).

That said, I truly do think that Lindsey is a genius and he's my favorite guitarist EVER. I know, I'm only a humble fan who has no musial knowledge beyond seven years of violin lessons from the ages of 11-18, but when I listened to "I'm So Afraid" off of the Dance album I felt like I had done more than just hear a song, I had EXPERIENCED a song! I'll never forget the first time I heard it - playing the Dance in the car - I kept thinking, "This is the climax" - and then he'd keep going - "No, THIS is the climax" - and then he'd keep going - "Ok THIS IS THE CLIMAX!" I actually sat in the parking lot after it was through thinking "That was AMAZING." I'd never felt that after listening to any guitarist before.

So, like Seteca, I'm not going to stop liking something because it may have been repetitive in some way. It's only when it gets ridiculous (sorry, Seteca, but DWIC is RIDICULOUSLY close to Big Love, IMO) that I get huffy about it. lol

It's all about what you respond to. I respond to LB's playing not only because of his technical prowess (which I believe is incredible) but there are other layers to his music as well. I realize how vague and indefinable I'm sounding....I'm sorry I'm not more eloquent on this subject, probably because I've never tried to analyze why I like him so much before. I think there's an underlying depth to a lot of his work that I find emotionally compelling, and this comes through in his playing as well. OK, that sounds like BS, doesn't it?! Ack! It's so much easier to analyze whether somebody can pick faster or cleaner or whatever than the much more subjective "special something" that takes technical skill to the next level. I believe Lindsey has that "special something." It's like faith, you can't touch it or explain it but you know it's there and you know it's real. :-)

I just hope that something doesn't get obscured by that aforementioned self-indulgent tendency that focuses solely on the technical and neglects what REALLY makes good music - and it's not a VSO or even (gasp) a superhuman ability to play guitar. It's music that comes from the heart.

OK, now, tear me apart, folks. ;-)

[madformac]

My phone line went dead first time around so here we are again!

This debate is back on by agreement so let's get in the ring!

Firstly, Seteca makes some valid points.

Lindsey does repeat and recycle his work but so do many many other artists, especially guitarists.
If I listen to 3 seconds of a solo I can usually tell who the guitarist is from both the tone and the choice of notes he plays. Call it a signature if you like. This is true of Clapton, Hendrix, Slash, Lindsey and Knopfler.
I love most of Lindsey's work and as a record buyer it's great. As a guitarist and musician of sorts sometimes I wonder where he is going, musically.
If you are a musician and you create a piece of work, the public will vote with their money. If they love it it will make you rich and sucessful. When you come to a follow up, what do you do? Take the original work, add in a few new chords, new lyrics, change the basic notes of the solos around a bit and there you have it. Hit record number 2.

And what if you don't?

Unfortunately, Lindsey decided his fate when Tusk was released. A truly great record but one the record buying public was not prepared for. The fickle record buying masses decided against it and Lindsey has paid for this ever since.
Lindsey loves to state he wasn't going to run the formula into the ground and release a Rumours 2.
Why then now do a lot of his pieces sound so similar? Did he or somebody else change his mind after Tusk? Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind! Ha!

Nice to hear Wondergirl9847 say Lindsey inspired her to pick up a guitar. I'm sure this would please him as much as adulation for his music would.
Sometimes I feel like playing after watching him too, as I do with others as well.

His ability as a guitarist is not under question, his musical soundness of mind maybe is, then again this may trigger something unexpected in his upcoming work. Time will tell.....

:shrug: :shrug:

[Barbara]

As a mere mortal non-musician Lindsey Buckingham fan, I have little to add to this analytical discussion of Lindsey's competence and merits as a musician/guitarist/songwriter/producer/human being, etc.

For me, Sodascouts said it best:

It's so much easier to analyze whether somebody can pick faster or cleaner or whatever than the much more subjective "special something" that takes technical skill to the next level. I believe Lindsey has that "special something." It's like faith, you can't touch it or explain it but you know it's there and you know it's real. :-)

And, in the course of the conversation about Lindsey's departure from the band in '87, I was reminded of this excerpt from Singers and Songwriters:

So he eventually left Fleetwood Mac altogether, and they replaced him with two singer-guitarists. It was an attempt doomed to failure; you can’t take the heart out of a band and replace it with mere musicians.

Of course, that's just one writer's opinion. ;)

Barbara

[chiliD]

Ahhhh...another participant! YAY!!!

As I've mentioned to a few folks off board, what I LIKE about Lindsey and what he does that inspires me, in turn, also pisses me off about him. My whole view in this thread is from the "he's pissin' me off" side...I'm mad that we're stuck without any new material from him...sure, the GoS stuff is great & all, but those tunes are tainted due to them not really being finished or given the Buckingham stamp of approval for public consumption. How would those same tunes sound if he DID finish them and release them? Maybe not that different, maybe COMPLETELY different...but how are we going to know if it never gets done.

That repetetive thing...JEEZ, if I could come up with a great lyrical solo like the one he used on "Frozen Love", "I'm So Afraid", et al, I'd hammer it home again & again, too. But, at the same time, it's the "that's great, Lindsey, really is, but what else you got? I've heard that before."

That being said, and my previous comments on the "Twist Of Fate"/"Second Hand News" similarities..."Twist Of Fate" is one of my faves from the GOS sessions. (along with "Murrow", too.)...but again, I LIKE that sound, but that ground has been covered.


Not to say that one shouldn't be true to himself. Of course Lindsey shouldn't produce crap just to appeal to the masses. Indeed, I do believe that "Out of the Cradle" (my fave LB album) was dead-on in that he resisted that compulsion to discard anything that sounded mainstream.....but I think years in the studio alone might make that compulsion creep up on him once again.

That's the thing...to my ears, "Out Of The Cradle" was Lindsey's solo equivalent (production-wise, commercial sounding-wise; but obviously not financially) of "Rumours"; and from hearing where he was going with "Gift Of Screws" was again, that "anti-OotC/anti-Rumours" thing...the more "Tusk-like" direction. I think that's what may have gotten him into hot water with the record company, that same "Tusk" vs "Rumours" attitude...record companies aren't that dumb...they wanted a "hit" from him...if "Out Of The Cradle" couldn't get the commercial success it deserved, how's another "push the envelope" album like "Gift Of Screws" going to sell tons (which is what the record company wants/needs from Lindsey)?? I mean, if we can't even drum up 10,000 signatures to get some unreleased Mac stuff out...who's going to buy an experimental Lindsey Buckingham solo album? I doubt that all 1000+ Ledgies would buy it...add in the number of folks who frequent other Mac related sites...MAYBE he'd sell 5-6,000 copies just to us die-hards...he had a major PR campaign with OotC and it basically bombed. The state of the record industry is even bleaker than back in 1992...so I doubt he'd drum up that many more folks with an album that isn't as commercially appealing as "OotC".


Another comparison:

Brian Wilson/Beach Boys:
Released "Pet Sounds"...commercially tanked (in the US...the UK ate it up!), but is considered one of the all-time greatest albums ever. The follow-up, "Smile" never got released (officially, there are tons of bootlegs of the sessions floating around).

Lindsey Buckingham:
Released "Out Of The Cradle"...commercially tanked...only time will tell how it'll be received 36 years after it's release. The follow-up, "Gift Of Screws" to date goes unreleased officially...we all have "not exactly legal" copies, right? ;)


Oh, wondergirl and your "variations of chocolate" idea:
Not exactly what I was thinking, but I THINK I can tell where you were going with that. I was more thinking that Lindsey started out making chocolate ice cream with only cream, eggs, cocoa beans and whatever basic, natural ingredients it takes to make real natural ice cream, back when he was 17...then he decreases the natural ingredients slowly over time to now he's giving us the same chocolate ice cream, only made with "imitation chocolate flavoring", monoglycerides & preservatives...a lot of artificial stuff and ever decreasing natural stuff...unless the two (the natural and artificial) are eaten side by side, the imitation flavoring still would satisfy the craving for chocolate, but in a less nutritious or healthy form. Same with theatre popcorn...back when, they gave us REAL butter topping...now it's some butter flavored grease that still satisfies our tastebuds, but isn't FULLY as satisfying as the "REAL THING"...nor as healthy.

Now saying that, I'm sure we're not all going to fall over dead from hardening of the arteries if Lindsey releases yet another song or songs that have the "I'm So Afraid" type solo in it, but I think you get my drift. :shrug:

[madformac]

Originally posted by chiliD

Oh, wondergirl and your "variations of chocolate" idea:
Not exactly what I was thinking, but I THINK I can tell where you were going with that. I was more thinking that Lindsey started out making chocolate ice cream with only cream, eggs, cocoa beans and whatever basic, natural ingredients it takes to make real natural ice cream, back when he was 17...then he decreases the natural ingredients slowly over time to now he's giving us the same chocolate ice cream, only made with "imitation chocolate flavoring", monoglycerides & preservatives...a lot of artificial stuff and ever decreasing natural stuff...unless the two (the natural and artificial) are eaten side by side, the imitation flavoring still would satisfy the craving for chocolate, but in a less nutritious or healthy form. Same with theatre popcorn...back when, they gave us REAL butter topping...now it's some butter flavored grease that still satisfies our tastebuds, but isn't FULLY as satisfying as the "REAL THING"...nor as healthy.



That's the best thing I've read on this thread so far!

All things in moderation. Too much ice cream will make you sick...

But at a later stage you will go back and eat it again won't you.

If you analyse the taste long enough you will be able to recreate it using modern chemicals and equipment and take it to a point where none of the original ingredients remain. The question then at that stage would be, can you remember how to make it with the original recipe or not? Or would you prefer to sell an artificial product that may contain carcinogenic chemicals? :confused:

[chiliD]

... you can’t take the heart out of a band and replace it with mere musicians.


Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well. :nod:

[wondergirl9847]

I'm no expert on analyzation but basically, my point was, on Monday, I want Big Love (chocolate), Tuesday, I want ISA (mint chocolate chip), Wednesday, I want Doing What I Can (chocolate almond), etc...they are all a variation of "chocolate ice cream", but are basically the same thing, I love them all, even tho they are all just tweaked chocolate ice cream. :nod::thumbsup: The MAIN POINT was that I love them all EVEN THO they are basically, the SAME THING! HEE HEE I am really enjoying reading all your opinions and stuff, this is a GREAT thread!! :thumbsup:

[madformac]

Originally posted by chiliD



Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well. :nod:

Interesting, whilst we are using other examples to get our points across.

Let's look at race car drivers.

A driver may be a champion, the best in the field, some who watched him race may say the best ever. One day he may get bored with the challenge, switch teams or retire. He may even lose his life.
His team will replace him.
The replacement driver may win three world titles for that team. Is he a better driver? Maybe, maybe not because the car and the opposition will have changed in that different era. You can only compare the driver to the opposition at the time he raced. His car may also be better prepared than the previous drivers car for the circuits of the time. Impossible to judge, opinions differ..

Anyway, that's my attempt at interpreting Peter's departure!

:blob1: :blob2: :blob1:

[chiliD]

OK, let's take ANOTHER similar thing...

The Dolphins are championship contenders with Bob Griese at quarterback...Griese gets old & retires, along comes Dan Marino. Dan takes the Dolphins to the Super Bowl, but just can't get 'em over that hump to win the Super Bowl...Marino sets all new team quarterbacking records in the meantime, though. Who's the better QB??





Right........John Elway.


Thank you and good night!

[Barbara]

Originally posted by chiliD


Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well. :nod:

At least let the man keep his kudos - he earned them.

Barbara

[Les]

Sodascouts:
"This is about what I think is genius and I'm the only one I have to please and everybody else can just go to hell!" It's so weird, though, because even as he did this he seemed to really want everybody to eat it up regardless, and seemed so crushed that his fans weren't "ready" for his genius. (By the way, comments like that have always made me feel like a loser, as I thought Rumours was better than Tusk). Ah, Lindsey, so fiercely defiant and so desperately needy at the same time!

I'm under the impression from the things he's said that it wasn't even so much the fan reaction to Tusk that upset him. Yes, I think it disappointed him and maybe hurt his feelings in some way, but I think he also expected some harsh reactions from a fanbase used to hearing something different. What I've always thought "crushed" him was actually his bandmates' relative rejection of the album after the fact. I suppose he felt like they had either lied to him during the making of it and really hadn't liked anything he did but wouldn't say so during the making, or he felt like they were distancing themselves from the album only because it didn't sell so well. Whether either one of those things is totally or partially true only they know. But that seemed to be something that colored everything from that point forward.

From then on, it seemed to leave him somewhat confounded. He could be alternately defiant about his ideas (because what can one cling to if not one's own instincts?) and confused about how to present his ideas to the band he didn't quite trust anymore.

I was just thinking that for all the times that "genius" is applied to him and for all the pomposity attributed to him for that tag, Lindsey's never referred to himself in those terms. In some ways, I think some motivations are attributed to him that he's never voiced himself.

[Barbara]

Originally posted by Les
I was just thinking that for all the times that "genius" is applied to him and for all the pomposity attributed to him for that tag, Lindsey's never referred to himself in those terms. In some ways, I think some motivations are attributed to him that he's never voiced himself.

I agree with you. To me, Lindsey's always seemed extremely self-effacing (offstage) and has commented several times in the press about not being in the same league as other musicians, etc. I think the perception that he's stuck-up comes from his being shy. There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!" :D

Barbara

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Barbara
There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!" :D

Barbara


LOL! Well, that's irrefutable proof. A man with a self-depracating sense of humor is a man whose britches fit him just fine, if not a little loosely. :-)

[seteca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I think there's an underlying depth to a lot of his work that I find emotionally compelling, and this comes through in his playing as well. I believe Lindsey has that "special something." It's like faith, you can't touch it or explain it but you know it's there and you know it's real. :-)

Perfectly said.....IMO.:) You summed up in two lines what I was trying to get across in everything I wrote!

Originally posted by Barbara
There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!"

LOL....:laugh: ...good one Lindsey!.....but....I think he should be less modest......

Dictionary definition of the word:

genius :

Extraordinary intellectual or creative power.

Enough said!:nod:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by Barbara


I agree with you. To me, Lindsey's always seemed extremely self-effacing (offstage) and has commented several times in the press about not being in the same league as other musicians, etc. I think the perception that he's stuck-up comes from his being shy. There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!" :D

Barbara

I gotta get me one of those signs! LMAO! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

WAY TO GO LINDSEY, women love a man with a sense of humor. :thumbsup:;)

[David]

Originally posted by Les
I'm under the impression from the things he's said that it wasn't even so much the fan reaction to Tusk that upset him. Yes, I think it disappointed him and maybe hurt his feelings in some way, but I think he also expected some harsh reactions from a fanbase used to hearing something different. What I've always thought "crushed" him was actually his bandmates' relative rejection of the album after the fact. I suppose he felt like they had either lied to him during the making of it and really hadn't liked anything he did but wouldn't say so during the making, or he felt like they were distancing themselves from the album only because it didn't sell so well. Whether either one of those things is totally or partially true only they know. But that seemed to be something that colored everything from that point forward.
Judging from their playfulness & exuberance onstage during that tour, I'd say that the other Fleetwood Mackies initially enjoyed the "Tusk" left turn, but didn't understand -- or "get" -- some of it. Then, when it fizzled out halfway up the matchstick, they probably said some harsh things to Lindsey about whose fault that was & what the direction of the band *should* be & all that.

But I think it took the other members some time before they really began to enjoy the sound & vibe of the album the way that some of the fans already enjoyed it in 1979. Stevie, for example, says that she took several years to warm up to it, that she didn't get it at first. She talked to Molly Meldrum about "Tusk" in 1986 & about how she loved it at that point, but about how it took her several years to hear the fun & the energy in it. Of course, by that time, she didn't talk to Lindsey much -- otherwise, she might have told him then how amazing she thought "Tusk" was. Imagine if she had been able (or courageous enough) to tell him that in 1986. Maybe those "Tango" sessions might have had an entirely different context. And maybe his decision not to tour might have taken a radically different path the next year (if the others had all told him how much they had come to love "Tusk" musically).

As for Lindsey's estimation of his talents & importance, he has shown perspicacity. He said his main contribution to the band has always been as an arranger & producer rather than as a singer or songwriter or even guitarist. He's always admitted that he has "the chops" as a guitarist, but that it's more important to him how he thinks about the guitar instead of how he plays it. As a songwriter & guitarist, he is fringe & minimalist & exuberant. As an arranger, he is practically peerless in his field.

Repeating ideas & motifs is practically commonplace in all the arts. Beethoven built entire symphonies painstakingly & deliberately on the repetition of themes & ideas: that was the mark of a great composer in his day. That was what you were supposed to do. I like to think of Lindsey as an auteurist in the film study sense: this entire way of looking at movies originated as a French theory of film directing. Sometimes these repeated motifs succeed artistically & sometimes they don't, but they're there in so many works. In "High Sierra," a Raoul Walsh movie with Bogart & Lupino, Walsh uses a dull & obvious device that he had used earlier in a dumber movie ("High Sierra" is not itself a great movie). In that earlier movie, the hero thrashes around in his sleep & mumbles dream-talk incoherently. Then the girl he loves comes into the bedroom & listens to him, her eyes welling with sympatico tears. The same scene occurs in "High Sierra." When you see Hitchcock's "Saboteur," you can see some of the same devices & techniques & even themes that you saw in earlier Hitch movies like "The 39 Steps" & even "The Lady Vanishes."

This kind of thing happens all the time in all the arts; it's not by any means a Lindsey Buckingham "problem." The question is, Is it done well or poorly? Does it have a point (& that point could be thematic or semantic or structural or even kinetic)? And most important, does the self-borrowing (in Lindsey's case) strike you imaginatively or as just a ripoff of an earlier success? Think of your best friend, who (I hope) has a personality. Sometimes, displays of that personality charm you & other times irk you. There are times when Lindsey's self-referencing charms me, as in the "Bleed to Love Her" stanza that is lifted from "You Do or You Don't." The lifted verse in "Bleed" nestles beautifully into the song's bridge at that point. I also appreciate the repeated stanza in "I Know I'm Not Wrong" & "Not That Funny" because the sarcasm of the joke build & builds & is completed -- "don't blame me" that there's "somebody outside the door."

[Barbara]

Originally posted by David

Stevie, for example, says that she took several years to warm up to it, that she didn't get it at first. She talked to Molly Meldrum about "Tusk" in 1986 & about how she loved it at that point, but about how it took her several years to hear the fun & the energy in it. Of course, by that time, she didn't talk to Lindsey much -- otherwise, she might have told him then how amazing she thought "Tusk" was. Imagine if she had been able (or courageous enough) to tell him that in 1986. Maybe those "Tango" sessions might have had an entirely different context. And maybe his decision not to tour might have taken a radically different path the next year (if the others had all told him how much they had come to love "Tusk" musically).

Imagine how history could have been rewritten!

As for Lindsey's estimation of his talents & importance, he has shown perspicacity. He said his main contribution to the band has always been as an arranger & producer rather than as a singer or songwriter or even guitarist. He's always admitted that he has "the chops" as a guitarist, but that it's more important to him how he thinks about the guitar instead of how he plays it. As a songwriter & guitarist, he is fringe & minimalist & exuberant. As an arranger, he is practically peerless in his field.

Perspicacity: The capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions. (I had to look it up).

David, I love it when you go into deep think mode. You should expound like this more often. Thanks!

Barbara

[Vianna]

I am enjoying this thread immensely. Being musically illiterate, I can't comment but this thread is the kind of discussion I just love b/c it teaches me.

As for Mark Knopfler and Lindsey-I love em both. Their music is quite different and I don't know that it can be compared.

This probably is an ignorant comment but I have always thought Tusk's being a double album might have been part of the reason it didn't sell as well as Rumours. People are not as likely to take a chance on an album when it's more expensive. Tusk as I remember was pretty pricy for its day. In terms of the music on it, it has always been my favorite and always will be. Rumours line-up Fleetwood Mac reached heights on that album it never did again.

[chiliD]

One reason it didn't sell as well...the Westwood One radio program to promote it's release played the album in it's entirety the night before it was released, and they announced that they would in advance, so countless numbers of people just taped it off the radio instead of going out & buying it. (The album in 1979 cost more than the CD does NOW!)

Another thing, for as "raw" as it was supposed to be and such an "anti-corporate" album as it was philosophically supposed to be, the entire marketing strategy and subsequent tour proved that Fleetwood Mac was just as pompous as the new-wavers perceived them to be, rather than the "cutting edge" band that was supposed to be shown with "Tusk".

Lindsey may have been trying to get the band to be "The Clash" or the "Talking Heads" with "Tusk", but got just the opposite instead. Possibly, had they done a small club tour instead of some big "monsters of rock" type tour that they DID, the perception of them being "dinosaurs" may have been dispelled. But, alas, that's not what happened.

A quick follow-up studio album (instead of a live album and a flurry of solo albums) might've saved the life of the band. The "soul" & "spirit" of Fleetwood Mac shriveled & died somewhere between "Tusk" & "Mirage"; and, "Mirage" & "Tango In The Night were basically just done on "life support". The "transfusion" of Billy & Rick for "Behind The Mask" & Bekka Bramlett and Dave Mason for "Time" (which I thought were good ideas at the time) couldn't save them. Even "The Dance" didn't bring the dead back to life; it was a personal thing for them to reunite, but for the most part, they were going through the motions. Their "soul" & "spirit" is gone for good.

[seteca]

Originally posted by chiliD
.......Lindsey may have been trying to get the band to be "The Clash" or the "Talking Heads" with "Tusk", but got just the opposite instead......

Funny you said that! It's what I've thought since the first time I heard that album! Totally agree with you!

(I do think the album is a billion times better than what The Clash or Talking Heads ever put out though!)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[wondergirl9847]

You know what I'm so sick of, people talking about how if you are successful or HUGE, you are a talentless nobody and you are a "SELL-OUT". :mad: I hear it alot when people talk about "boy bands" and the Britney's, Christina's, etc. People like what they like, and that is THAT. I don't understand why Peter Green says he'll NEVER play with Fleetwood Mac again (No offense, but they aren't likely to ASK him to either) because they have "SOLD-OUT". Gimme a break. I know that there are MANY talented people out there who don't get a chance to be HUGE (which will turn them into a-holes anyways, if they aren't already) because the majority of human beings want to hear the same old, mediocre stuff, but griping about it isn't gonna do any good. Be proactive, search out new bands or write to the radio station and beg em to play Stevie or whoever you love. BTW, it's not really gonna do any good, because the BIG GIANT CORPORATIONS rule this frickin planet, not us peons. Hee That's it, I'm done griping. LMAO! :laugh:

[Barbara]

"Even "The Dance" didn't bring the dead back to life; it was a personal thing for them to reunite, but for the most part, they were going through the motions. Their "soul" & "spirit" is gone for good."

Just because you've followed this band from infancy doesn't mean everybody has. The Dance was a beautiful performance and brought thousands of new young fans to Fleetwood Mac. I don't think they noticed what you refer to as "going through the motions" - after all, it had been 10 years since some of those songs had been performed in public by this lineup and to me they sounded pretty damned good and looked like they were having a great time!

And while I'm ranting, how do YOU KNOW so much about their "soul" and "spirit"? Really ChiliD, if you're so down on this band I don't understand why you're wasting your time griping on and on about them? IMO, you've made your point many times and we get it. ;)

Barbara

[Carole Ann]

Why in the world would Peter want to/F-M ask Peter to...play with them again, when Peter is a blues musician and F-M in it's most recent incarnation couldn't play the blues if their man/woman left them, their dog done died, they lost their day jobs, the train done left the station, they got kicked out of bed/got caught with "someone else"/caught their man/woman cheating on them and they just ran out of Jack Daniels AND cigarettes?

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges. :rolleyes:

I don't understand why Peter Green says he'll NEVER play with Fleetwood Mac again (No offense, but they aren't likely to ASK him to either)

[Amy Y]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I know that there are MANY talented people out there who don't get a chance to be HUGE (which will turn them into a-holes anyways, if they aren't already) because the majority of human beings want to hear the same old, mediocre stuff, but griping about it isn't gonna do any good. Be proactive, search out new bands or write to the radio station and beg em to play Stevie or whoever you love. BTW, it's not really gonna do any good, because the BIG GIANT CORPORATIONS rule this frickin planet, not us peons. Hee That's it, I'm done griping. LMAO! :laugh:

Well, I feel that way. I've been waiting for something new to play on the radio for almost a decade. Oh sure, there are some songs along the way that I liked and thought were catchy, but nothing innovative that made me think "wow, now that was nothing like I've ever heard before". It's unfortunate, and I wish it would change. It hasn't though, which is why I no longer listen to the radio.

love to all,

Amy Yeo

[Carole Ann]

IMO, you've made your point many times and we get it.

Barbara, are you suggesting that chili should either shut up or begin agreeing with the "F-M can do no wrong and how DARE you imply otherwise" faction? Seems that the majority of his posts are "opinions" rather than "facts," but I could be wrong.

It seems that, again, people start getting in trouble when opinions are mis-read as facts. PLUS, despite the nay-saying, opinions that as little as HINT at frustration with the band cause lots and lots of trouble (i.e., "This is a Fleetwood Mac forum and, if you hate the band so much, what're you doing here?"- type stuff).

Everyone has made fine, fine points and articulated their opinions and labeled them appropriately. That's now (again?) a problem?
:( :( :(

[chiliD]

Carole Ann,

Great post about Peter Green..I couldn't have said it better!

And, thank you.


Barbara,

Maybe because I HAVE followed the band from it's inception I might have a clearer view of it's workings (from a fans' perspective)? Possibly. Yes, Fleetwood Mac DID attract many new fans, some even second generation fans who weren't even BORN when Tango In The Night was recorded, much less Rumours. BUT, what has Fleetwood Mac done to nurture THEIR fandom? Nothing. What has Fleetwood Mac done to KEEP the older fans? Nothing. Had they followed-up with something in a REASONABLY timely fashion after "The Dance", I might not be "as down on them" (your words). Yet, I'm still anxiously awaiting ANYTHING from them as anyone else here. But, this damned waiting seemingly DECADES for new material is aggravating.

As you can tell by other posts in this thread (and those two similarly themed ones on the Rumours board ), I'm not the only one who is irked at their publicly viewed lengthy inactivity. So, I assume by your comment that either I not post my opinions, or, that I should "fall in line with the 'Fleetwood Mac can do no wrong' consensus"?? Neither of which I will do, by the way. :mad:

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

You think the wait for a new album is lengthy....spare a thought for us Brits! They haven't toured our shores since Behind The Mask and even though it has been promised this time I won't hold my breath!! I do think they should remember their roots sometimes!

Having said that I know I will buy whatever they release and even though I am pissed at having to wait even longer I am also a little relieved that I have longer to save up to travel to the States to see them tour!!!

Pip

[estranged4life]

Knopfler & Buckingham are both great finger-picking guitarists, But I have a new favorite of the finger-picking style to add to the pot, Keith Urban. He may play country (He's more new "New-Country" than traditional...) but I saw his style from 10 feet away in the front row,(Saw him last year at the Okla. State Fair), And I was floored...

Kinda ironic when he was asked who are his guitar influences, His reply was only 2 people, "Mark Knopfler & Lindsey Buckingham"...Brian

[Vianna]

Chili, I get what you mean about Mirage and TITN-something did get lost there but wasn't it because the stupid label wanted money-not creative inventiveness- that Lindsey turned back and they made Mirage, which was more in the Rumours style, and then Tango? It's like he kinda lost his nerve, FM-wise. Go Insane is pretty inventive though.

I'd heard that story about Westwood. Somebody really messed up there!

[Les]

That's always been sort of a no win situation for Lindsey. Either he could continue to spearhead the group in the Tusk vein and be called selfish for it, which he often was and is, by the band and fans alike, or he could temper his direction a bit and do something the band collectively was more comfortable with, but then he's sort of fingered for losing his nerve, by the band and fans alike. That's not a position I would envy anyone.

I like Tango personally. The band may have been on life support for the album in terms of personal interactions, but I still like the vast majority of that album.

[Skylark]

I always thot' Lindsey was TOLD to be a good team-player
and revert back to sellable Commercial Music ;) again on
"Mirage"! MUSIC that would fatten the FM bank accounts!!!
Like Ken C. said... "We were not taking any more chances
with Lindsey!" He HAD to do IT Their Way this Time!:eek: Sky:)

[Barbara]

Originally posted by chiliD
As you can tell by other posts in this thread (and those two similarly themed ones on the Rumours board ), I'm not the only one who is irked at their publicly viewed lengthy inactivity.

We are ALL irked at their publicly viewed lengthy inactivity. We are ALL tired of waiting. We ALL wish we had had three new albums since 1997. But just because we're irked doesn't mean the band sucks. Apples and oranges . . .;)

So, I assume by your comment that either I not post my opinions, or, that I should "fall in line with the 'Fleetwood Mac can do no wrong' consensus"?? Neither of which I will do, by the way. :mad:

Don't assume. I specifically addressed/questioned two sentences about The Dance that I disagreed with - I also have opinions!! As far as the lack of follow-up to the Dance, just a few mitigating factors could be the loss of a band member, four new children and a contrary or tyrannical record label.

I'm not familiar with the 'Fleetwood Mac can do no wrong' consensus, but there IS a consensus that they are right at least SOME of the time. :nod:

You're perfectly free to continue to post whatever makes you feel better.

Barbara

[Lori]

Originally posted by estranged4life
Knopfler & Buckingham are both great finger-picking guitarists, But I have a new favorite of the finger-picking style to add to the pot, Keith Urban. He may play country (He's more new "New-Country" than traditional...) but I saw his style from 10 feet away in the front row,(Saw him last year at the Okla. State Fair), And I was floored...

Kinda ironic when he was asked who are his guitar influences, His reply was only 2 people, "Mark Knopfler & Lindsey Buckingham"...Brian

Not SO ironic, Brian ;) - I think this thread was a result of a post which I'd made a couple of weeks ago regarding Keith Urban. I'd recently "discovered" him, and was checking out his bio on CDNow, and to my delight found that he listed his influences as LB and MK. So, I posted that info about him here, wondering if anyone knew of him or his music.

I must admit, all I've heard of his music/guitar playing are clips from his cd at CDNow, but I thought he sounded terrific! I hope I get to catch him live on the tv sometime!

Take care,
Lori :wavey:

[estranged4life]

Lori...If ya ever have the chance to either see him in concert you'll be in for a treat...He does a heck of a job guitar-wise in concert. I've never saw a guitarist who's solo included going into the audience and signing autographs as he played...Definately a talented musician...BTW, His album has 1 song that to me sounds very Lindsey-like guitarwise,"Out On My Own", Definately worth checking out...Brian

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by estranged4life
Lori...If ya ever have the chance to either see him in concert you'll be in for a treat...He does a heck of a job guitar-wise in concert. I've never saw a guitarist who's solo included going into the audience and signing autographs as he played...Definately a talented musician...BTW, His album has 1 song that to me sounds very Lindsey-like guitarwise,"Out On My Own", Definately worth checking out...Brian

AWESOME, I love to hear about new artists!! I think that is so cool that he listed Mark and Lindsey as his two influences!! I do remember reading your post Lori in regards to him, but I don't think I ever went to CDNow to check him out, I need to go do that!! Thanks Brian and Lori for the heads up!

[estranged4life]

wondergirl9847...For more info goto www.keithurban.net ...Brian

[madformac]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
You know what I'm so sick of, people talking about how if you are successful or HUGE, you are a talentless nobody and you are a "SELL-OUT". :mad: I don't understand why Peter Green says he'll NEVER play with Fleetwood Mac again (No offense, but they aren't likely to ASK him to either) because they have "SOLD-OUT". Gimme a break.:

OK, I've sat back, well lay back, as I am under doctor's orders to stay flat out for a week! And I have watched this thread unfold.

Firstly, Peter told me personally he would not take to the stage again with Fleetwood Mac because they had become too commercial, and he said it with a look and posture of sadness.

This has nothing to do with being successful or "HUGE" it is to do with pushing a tour or album for the sake of money. This really annoys me. Many "big" successful bands are just still in it for the pleasure and put their heart into their music. Even Lindsey admitted that he got back onto the Fleetwood Mac bandwagon in order to promote himself which would ultimately help his solo work. The Dance album and tour showed me that the band are incredible musicians still, maybe, skill wise, better than ever.
If the vibe was still with the band maybe Chris would not have retired? Maybe she would of anyway, we'll never know.

Secondly, I'm sick of people using this fabulous message board to just heap praise on the band we all love and not wanting to accept differing views. This is supposed to be a "discussion" board not just about posting how much people are in love with Lindsey or about Stevie's latest hair do!! Don't get me wrong, all threads are valid and I make my choice, as you do, which threads to reply to. This thread started to get quite interesting, with many great replies and views coming in and then, as usual, cold water got poured on and it got extinguished just as it was getting hot. Same as usual!!!

Also, on the same theme, will people get off ChiliD's back for giving his opinion, as he is entitled to do. I have read through this entire thread again and also in the past I don't seem to recall him getting personal or deliberately trying to offend anyone even once. The same cannot be said for some others. :mad: :mad:

[Les]

I think as far as Peter was concerned, the Mac was getting too commercial when he left originally decades ago. It's a matter of one's personal comfort level to some degree.

[chiliD]

Thanks, mfm, I appreciate the sentiment.

Hmmm...I can see on one hand where the 1970 Fleetwood Mac COULD be considered "commercial", but that seemed to be accidental..."Albatross" was a #1 hit because some TV producer who had a popular show picked up on this little obscure instrumental ditty and used it for the show's theme song. (prompting a lot of their blues-purist fans to scream "sell out!" way back then!!). "Oh Well" was a hit for some weird reason; it breaks almost every rule in the "write a hit song" handbook. Don't even get me started on "Green Manalishi"...there's really nothing remotely "hit song" about it...even for 1970's standards.

Fleetwood Mac, at the time, was heading in a direction where they would've been on par with the Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, The Who, the Allman Bros Band, etc...a band where lengthy blues/rock instrumental jams (led by perceived "Guitar Gods") ruled the day. When Peter left, they kind of lost that momentum (talk about your lack of respect for the talents of Danny Kirwan!!!)

I think Peter left mainly due to the literal description of "creative differences"...he wanted to go in one direction, the band didn't, he felt he was "carrying" the band, so, the only healthy thing was for him to leave the band. Even though the effects of his LSD trip(s?) DID kind of spur on some of his split in attitude with the rest of the band.

Any real "commercial" success for Fleetwood Mac came long after Peter left.

[Les]

Any real "commercial" success for Fleetwood Mac came long after Peter left.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of "commercial." For some it's meant purely as a derisive label to imply things about the motives of others, whether true or not. I dare say that for many, the "commercial" tag is something they'd apply to any band that gains acceptance by a greater number of people than in the past - regardless of whether or not the musical direction changes. And for many, that wider acceptance of something they once considered their own semi-private discovery, is enough to turn them off to it.

Part of his wanting to give his money away was in response to his discomfort with band getting too big by his standards. In addition to the creative differences that began to appear, I do tend to think the simple fact of becoming bigger was part of what "commercial" meant to him even back in 1969. He didn't care for the pressure of it or for what he thought were the implications of it.

[chiliD]

True...I'll concede that point about "commerciality".

Peter never was comfortable being the main focus of the band; including all the "guitar God" praise he was getting from all angles, as well. (his big internal duel between "modesty" & "ego") He has always wanted to be "just one of the guys in the band" (hence naming what was basically HIS band "Fleetwood Mac", rather than "The Peter Green Band")...which he finally has attained to a high level with the Splinter Group...although he DOES seem to have finally gained some level of comfort having his name be "the draw" of the band, but, it's VERY obvious that within the dynamic of the band, he's "just one of the guys"...Roger Cotton, Peter Stroud & Nigel Watson are the main songwriters...with the occasional blues standard or re-working of one of Greeny's old tunes (ie, Man Of The World, Underway & Tribal Dance).