Abortion

[gssmith]

Stevie has talked about how there just wasn't time for anything else other than Fleetwood Mac. No time for a steady relationship, let alone a child. She was young, in her prime, partying, travelling, living the dream and seeing the world. Even though women every day manage to walk both sides of the line, Stevie didn't feel it was the right thing to do, *for her*, to bring a child into her crazy jet-fueled world of drugs, sex and rock and roll. From an outsider's point of view, it may seem a little bit selfish, but I honestly think it would have been a terrible thing if she'd had children in those days. Maybe it would have calmed her, maybe there would have been no Betty Ford, no Klonopin, no breakup of Fleetwood Mac after Tango - but maybe it would have been worse.

This brings me to Hard Advice from 24 Karat Gold. There has been some discussion on who the lyrics are about, other than Tom Petty filling the role of the 'best friend'. To me, the lyrics are not about a person, but about a life lived; about overcoming all the grief and regret and pain from *all* the choices she made and the failures she had experienced. It was 1995, before The Dance, and her life was in a slump despite coming out of Klonopin detox. She had to face, finally, all the hard memories and pain she had been covering up with drugs and escapism; after all those years of self-medicating with cocaine and then Klonopin, the reality of her choices was there in the daylight, plain to see. She was sober, finally, really for the first time since the mid-70's, and it was time to get over all of her past mistakes and decisions that led her to where she was at that moment. There was no husband, there was no Lindsey, there was no child, there was no Fleetwood Mac - there wasn't even a public interest in her career. Street Angel was a flop. No more medicating, no more hiding. It's time to get over it - this pain's gone on too long. Don't buy that doll. Come in out of the darkness, for real this time. And until you do, you're going nowhere.

And she did! :nod:

Oh nice! Except I think Betty ford would have come a lot sooner or it would have been selfish to have brought a child into the world. I rarely think abortions are the wrong way to go, even though I tend to go with the republicans, I have a very liberal out look on most social issues.

"Breath easy. Don't commit a crime"

[PenguinHead]

And I'm sorry she chose to kill the baby. I think she must have regrets about that deep down. Life with drugs is no life.

Ps. I'm very pro-life. I love Stevie.

I'm pro-reason. I have had a wonderful life with and without drugs or babies! I'm sorry that you chose to phrase it as "She chose to kill the baby." She stopped a very early pregnancy. I don't believe she carries a heavy regret about it. It was a responsible decision which has allowed her to live her life on her own terms. Her artistic instincts are far more stronger than her mothering instincts. Stevie has a very unconventional spirit.

History shows that humans have always sought altered states of consciousness. Not everyone who has used or is using recreational drugs are doomed. It depends on the drugs, and the psychology of the individual. In years past I used cocaine and took a few trips on acid, mescaline and mushrooms in varying degrees. It was fun and experimental. I'm fond of those experiences and have no regrets. I still smoke pot , yet drastically less frequently in the last few years, but still drink red wine and the occasional cocktail. I have a very healthy lifestyle; I'm a vegan, I run, bike, meditate, do yoga and work out. You can have a good time with drugs (responsible usage of alcohol/pot). You can also have a good time without it, but why take chances? lol

Stevie, no doubt, had a good time for a while until cocaine , which is a notoriously addictive substance, became an addiction. Some of the other members were complicit in drug use, yet they all didn't have to go to rehab. I admire her awareness that her dependency got out of hand and that it was comprising her life, so she took responsibility to fix it ( You can fix this!).

[olive]

just out of curiosity

Would y'all be this supportive if you had a neighbor /co-worker / friend who was a drug addict knowing had sex with someone else's husband and used abortion as a form of birth control ?

[michelej1]

Would y'all be this supportive if you had a neighbor /co-worker / friend who was a drug addict knowing had sex with someone else's husband and used abortion as a form of birth control ?

Yes. I would be more supportive in that case, because the drug addict would be less equipped to take care of the baby than a financially secure Stevie would have been. Our society does not provide proper support, health or education services to the children of the poor or troubled and no child should be born into a world where they will suffer.

The fact that the baby was the result of sex with someone else's husband would be irrelevant to me. In fact, when you offer reasons that an innocent infant would be ostracized, stigmatized, labeled, name-called and shunned for someone else's mistake, it does not make me anti-abortion.

Michele

[SisterNightroad]

just out of curiosity

Would y'all be this supportive if you had a neighbor /co-worker / friend who was a drug addict knowing had sex with someone else's husband and used abortion as a form of birth control ?

I don't think you should say that she used abortion as form of birth control, because it isn't a contraceptive method and defining it as such is misleading and has a negative influence.
Beside that, you don't know what kind of birth control method she used, maybe as the majority of people she used the natural method but it didn't work like many times happens. This was especially true for the seventies before the spreading of AIDS.

[gssmith]

just out of curiosity

Would y'all be this supportive if you had a neighbor /co-worker / friend who was a drug addict knowing had sex with someone else's husband and used abortion as a form of birth control ?

Yes, I would almost do the abortion my self.

[PenguinHead]

The only person who has full knowledge of all the reasons behind Stevie's decisions regarding her abortion(s?) is Stevie herself, and that's okay. Her body, her choice (which I'm sure was a difficult choice for her to make).

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Who the hell is anyone to moralize about her past and the choices she made? The circumstances and intimate details surrounding her personal life are a matter of privacy It's really none of our business to analyze and make judgement calls about the what ifs and should haves. There is an incessant obsession and reference about sex and drugs, with a seemingly naive perspective that isn't well informed or nuanced about either subject.

Though I feel no topic should be off limits, this inquisition was ill-conceived and lacks sensitivity. It pushed the hot button on a particularly incendiary subject. It was bound to set off a lot of polarizing theories and unnecessary pandering, far-fetched assessments.

[Jondalar]

The "the right to lifers" always make me sick because I think they are about as deep as a raindrop.

[PenguinHead]

The "the right to lifers" always make me sick because I think they are about as deep as a raindrop.
So poetic;)

[gldstwmn]

just out of curiosity

Would y'all be this supportive if you had a neighbor /co-worker / friend who was a drug addict knowing had sex with someone else's husband and used abortion as a form of birth control ?
It's none of my business.

[Danigirl]

It's none of my business.
Exactly. Nuff said.

[olive]

It's none of my business.

if only more people did that

[Feather Blade]

Sigh, I know I am going to regret getting involved in this argument, but how about a different viewpoint for once if we are so supportive of them all. The original poster merely asked what we thought was going on in Stevie's life at the time which would cause her to take the course of action she did. Cue the immediate vehement "her body her choice!" answer. Yes, it was her body, but I am tired of everyone pretending that making that choice isn't denying a lifetime's worth of choices to another human being who could have lived and loved and gifted the world with their own special qualities. If you have been in that situation, I know I haven't walked in your shoes, but can I humbly ask that we consider taking 9 tiny months of our general allotment of 912 of them over the average lifespan, to let another human being come into this world to be gifted to adoptive parents who are aching to give that little one a family and a home. There ARE other alternatives. (and to the person who said that everyone who wasn't supportive of killing children was about as deep as a raindrop, I hope I've shown more depth than that. If you still think not, then I'm sorry, but I'll "choose" to stick to my principles.)

[Jondalar]

Sigh, I know I am going to regret getting involved in this argument, but how about a different viewpoint for once if we are so supportive of them all. The original poster merely asked what we thought was going on in Stevie's life at the time which would cause her to take the course of action she did. Cue the immediate vehement "her body her choice!" answer. Yes, it was her body, but I am tired of everyone pretending that making that choice isn't denying a lifetime's worth of choices to another human being who could have lived and loved and gifted the world with their own special qualities. If you have been in that situation, I know I haven't walked in your shoes, but can I humbly ask that we consider taking 9 tiny months of our general allotment of 912 of them over the average lifespan, to let another human being come into this world to be gifted to adoptive parents who are aching to give that little one a family and a home. There ARE other alternatives. (and to the person who said that everyone who wasn't supportive of killing children was about as deep as a raindrop, I hope I've shown more depth than that. If you still think not, then I'm sorry, but I'll "choose" to stick to my principles.)

"Killing Children" - not a child yet, she made a preemptive move; she didn't need the alternatives.

[lovethemac1]

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Who the hell is anyone to moralize about her past and the choices she made? The circumstances and intimate details surrounding her personal life are a matter of privacy It's really none of our business to analyze and make judgement calls about the what ifs and should haves. There is an incessant obsession and reference about sex and drugs, with a seemingly naive perspective that isn't well informed or nuanced about either subject.

Though I feel no topic should be off limits, this inquisition was ill-conceived and lacks sensitivity. It pushed the hot button on a particularly incendiary subject. It was bound to set off a lot of polarizing theories and unnecessary pandering, far-fetched assessments.

Here, here.

[DauphineMarie]

I also am regretfully joining in with this argument, but I just need to say a woman's choice to have an abortion should always be her choice. For any reason, regardless of her circle of influence, she should not have to feel like she's making the wrong decision. Because whether or not for selfish reasons, if she feels like she has to have an abortion, nobody should stop her. Denying someone that choice, in my opinion, is as damaging as denying a child a life. Because as many of you have pointed out, the amount of drugs and things happening at that time would not have ended well for her child, and as Stevie has said, she couldn't have been around enough to be a proper mother, like she would have wanted. I think when Stevie made the decision, it was for selfish reasons, but also for the health, safety, and well-being of her child. I think she realized that if she were to bring a child into the world, both she and her child could not have lived the lives they wanted to live. And as poetic as Stevie is, her music embodies that choice; her child is the "poet in her heart", that never changes and never stops, but is now gone. It doesn't matter what for, but when he builds that house, she's ready to move on with her life, but with her unborn child, a part of it.

Regardless of personal opinion, nothing is stronger than a mum's love, and though in a perfect world no child would have to be aborted, this is not a perfect world, and choices are made that will be regretted. And choices will be made that will be cherished forever. That choice, though, is not anyone's business, nor should it ever be.

[tabruns]

because it was her right to choose

Absolutely.

[tabruns]

The "the right to lifers" always make me sick because I think they are about as deep as a raindrop.

This actually made me burst out laughing. :thumbsup:

[gypsyhelena]

Sigh, I know I am going to regret getting involved in this argument, but how about a different viewpoint for once if we are so supportive of them all. The original poster merely asked what we thought was going on in Stevie's life at the time which would cause her to take the course of action she did. Cue the immediate vehement "her body her choice!" answer. Yes, it was her body, but I am tired of everyone pretending that making that choice isn't denying a lifetime's worth of choices to another human being who could have lived and loved and gifted the world with their own special qualities. If you have been in that situation, I know I haven't walked in your shoes, but can I humbly ask that we consider taking 9 tiny months of our general allotment of 912 of them over the average lifespan, to let another human being come into this world to be gifted to adoptive parents who are aching to give that little one a family and a home. There ARE other alternatives. (and to the person who said that everyone who wasn't supportive of killing children was about as deep as a raindrop, I hope I've shown more depth than that. If you still think not, then I'm sorry, but I'll "choose" to stick to my principles.)

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

[Jondalar]

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

Dido!!!!!!!!!

[secret love]

Dido!!!!!!!!!

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

[gypsyhelena]

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

Tony Abbott's awful. I'm a New Zealander, and our prime minister's a shallow grinning idiot who's more concerned with changing our flag and meeting Katy Perry than he is with combating issues such as child poverty, but we're still better off in the prime minister department than you Aussies are.

[Jondalar]

Every single moment of every single day, civilized cultures deny people the "right" to kill other people. That's why we have laws against murder. This is NO different. Once the process has gone far enough that a fertilized egg has implanted and let the body know that there is now a viable pregnancy, nothing further needs to be done save the appropriate amount of growing time. At that point, you have a soul, you ARE a person. It doesn't take leaving the womb to become human. As far as the hope/dreams/friends/enemies argument goes, a 15 year old has more of those than a 10 yr old, a 10 yr old has more than a 5 yr old and a 5 yr old has more than a 1 yr old, that's just a product of experience. If I say that my life is more important than someone who has simply had less time to explore the world that's me saying some lives matter more than others and that's exactly the attitude that led to the Holocaust. If you aren't prepared to be a parent, then you don't have to be, there are lines of people waiting to adopt that child and give them the love, home and family that you for whatever reason aren't able to give. Just please, please, please, give some thought to giving just a few short months of time to let that precious little person have a chance to go enjoy all the things of this world that you get to enjoy because your parents thought that you were worth that. There are many, many organizations that help with the financial, physical and emotional support that someone might need to get through that period of time. Every single life is important and we are all able to even have this argument because our mothers thought that. I know that I can't be the only person who feels this way. Someone reading this right now is an adopted child who is thankful every day that they were given a chance, someone reading this is an adoptive parent who is grateful for a biological mother out there who gave of herself to see that the precious child they get to enjoy every day was saved, and someone out there who is reading this decided against the odds, against every instinct they had to not see it through, DID decide to stay the course and is grateful every single day of their lives for the cherished son or daughter that almost wasn't. I know that some of you are going to vilify me, and if that's the way it has to be, then so be it, it isn't about choice or lack of, it is about precious human lives and sometimes someone has to stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves. (Oh my...does anyone want to talk about music again? ;)

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

[Feather Blade]

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? ;) (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

[Jondalar]

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? ;) (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

[Feather Blade]

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

And this isn't you having to say your piece last? :D

[Jondalar]

And this isn't you having to say your piece last? :D

I didn't write a book like you did.

[Feather Blade]

I didn't write a book like you did.

I guess I don't really see what the length of the comments we made has to do with accusing me of having to have the last word by getting the last word yourself, but ok, whatever. I don't want to fight with you. I tried to steer the topic back to what the original poster wanted to talk about which was what one of the moderators suggested we do. I can't think of anything else to say on that subject at the moment apart from what I just said about the differences in the modern workforce and what that means regarding work and family, so someone else will have to step in I guess. I hope you have a nice day/night and that early happy New Year was for you too.

[becca]

My problem with Stevie if I'm allowed to have one is that she has been said to have had as many as seven abortions, and at least 'several' going by iron-clad legitimnate sources. Seven mistakes is a huge number for something like this. A misuse of abortion on that scale by someone who has he resources to do something else? That makes it bad for others, especially people still having to fight for a choice for mostly poor and far more resourceless women and victims of attack. :mad:

The would-have-been-fathers of some do seem to hold a grudge still because they were kept in the dark and/or allowed no voice, and they also had resources. As a human being I say the hell with any career in that case. It is something that has effected my enjoyment of her music at times, it might be better not to know but I do. Surely if you don't like the balance nature forces on us you could have gotten yourself surgically able to have sex without possibility of pregnancy after one or two mistakes. :sorry:

This is a subject like Michael Jackson's 'special misunderstood love' for children that some just will never be able to be objective about, but that can be their willfulness. You've been in trouble, so why have an amusement park on your property and be alone numerous times in your bedroom with other peoples' kids? Why not get psychological help with all your money? You've been in trouble, so why keep taking chances when you can do something to avoid it happening again and again and insisting you are the only one to 'deal' with the result of your actions when you so obviously haven't shown any success or ability before? Look where Jackson ended up, unable to sleep at night without the most powerful sedative known! His fans were no help to him in that they just propped up his facade of innocence and of fathering three children like a normal man. I'd have respected someone coming out of the closet, but now these people are just going to abuse his so-called kids to keep making money from fanatics who say dumb things about them inheriting his talent. I don't think Stevie's fans are this extreme but they don't help her in excusing any and all behavior. I feel sorry for Jackson and recognize he paid the ultimate price, and I also feel sorry for Stevie. People do need to know that an abortion is an extreme solution with major consequences well beyond legalities. There is no fair. At best it is a lesser of evils situation to be made by those with direct knowledge, and someone abusing it's availability jeopardizes it for others. :(

[Jondalar]

My problem with Stevie if I'm allowed to have one is that she has been said to have had as many as seven abortions, and at least 'several' going by iron-clad legitimnate sources. Seven mistakes is a huge number for something like this. A misuse of abortion on that scale by someone who has he resources to do something else? That makes it bad for others, especially people still having to fight for a choice for mostly poor and far more resourceless women and victims of attack. :mad:

The would-have-been-fathers of some do seem to hold a grudge still because they were kept in the dark and/or allowed no voice, and they also had resources. As a human being I say the hell with any career in that case. It is something that has effected my enjoyment of her music at times, it might be better not to know but I do. Surely if you don't like the balance nature forces on us you could have gotten yourself surgically able to have sex without possibility of pregnancy after one or two mistakes. :sorry:

This is a subject like Michael Jackson's 'special misunderstood love' for children that some just will never be able to be objective about, but that can be their willfulness. You've been in trouble, so why have an amusement park on your property and be alone numerous times in your bedroom with other peoples' kids? Why not get psychological help with all your money? You've been in trouble, so why keep taking chances when you can do something to avoid it happening again and again and insisting you are the only one to 'deal' with the result of your actions when you so obviously haven't shown any success or ability before? Look where Jackson ended up, unable to sleep at night without the most powerful sedative known! His fans were no help to him in that they just propped up his facade of innocence and of fathering three children like a normal man. I'd have respected someone coming out of the closet, but now these people are just going to abuse his so-called kids to keep making money from fanatics who say dumb things about them inheriting his talent. I don't think Stevie's fans are this extreme but they don't help her in excusing any and all behavior. I feel sorry for Jackson and recognize he paid the ultimate price, and I also feel sorry for Stevie. People do need to know that an abortion is an extreme solution with major consequences well beyond legalities. There is no fair. At best it is a lesser of evils situation to be made by those with direct knowledge, and someone abusing it's availability jeopardizes it for others. :(

Who said she had several abortions?

[becca]

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

No. Many times not smart, and many times not responsible. The opposite of what was done does not get equal time with what has actually gone on. You can still admire her music without having to rewrite history or deny reality. :nod:

[becca]

Just on the Ledge it's been brought up many times...

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=44669

"the memory of four abortions" in the first line of this thread.

P.S. The number of seven has appeared in a couple of published books, but in the past when mentioned people have discounted them for reasons of the publisher or author being bad somehow in an 'everyone knows' fashion where i just had to take peoples' word for that. But then I thought 'everyone knew' there were multiple abortions.

[Jondalar]

No. Many times not smart, and many times not responsible. The opposite of what was done does not get equal time with what has actually gone on. You can still admire her music without having to rewrite history or deny reality. :nod:

It was smart and responsible to have abortion. She had no business giving birth with that lifestyle and she knew it. Many people have no business having children but they have been made to feel guilty. Many of those kids aren't given up for adoption but r raised by the screwed up parent. That is one reason why there are so many unhappy screwed up kids in the world.

[becca]

Smart is learning, not retreating to the self-aggrandizing fairytale and poetry trappings, that's like believing in your own hype which seems to lead these careerists astray quite often. Abortion is an extreme solution for the body and everyone else involved really. I know one of the fathers wanted one of them and is haunted still. Two or three months off would've cost her so much each time? Then to go on about wanting to be a mother and adopting later?

1992 Vox magazine interview...

She put her relationship with her fans before a relationship with one man.
Ever since she saw Janis Joplin perform, she wanted to emulate her, to achieve
that state of communion with the crowd. "I just wanted to be in love with my
audience and I wanted them to be in love with me back."
But now there is remorse at the havoc her abortions have wreaked on her
psyche. "To give up four (babies) is to give up a lot that would be here now.
So that really bothers me, a lot, and really breaks my heart. But they're gone,
so..." she composes herself. "But I couldn't because I was too busy. And I had
all these commitments." She wants to adopt, but age and single-parenthood are
against her.

Bad choices galore. :(

Miscarriage, abortion... maybe you either have a basic revulsion and shock towards it or not. I get extremely angry with people who want to stigmatize birth control or make it inaccessible, that totally blows my mind in terms of logic, especially when most of those people profess a horror of abortion. Because I value human life highly I would hand out the stuff like candy!

[estranged4life]

with a human it is an abortion but with a chicken it is an omelet...:thumbsup:

[secret love]

with a human it is an abortion but with a chicken it is an omelet...:thumbsup:

After high school, I have been studying nursing. Part of that was Human Anatomy and Physiology and for the reproductive system topic, the teacher referred to miscarriages as spontaneous abortions and noted that most sexually active women will have had a miscarriage at some point, even if they are unaware of it, because it happens very early on before the zygote has fully developed into a blastocyst, or shortly after the blastocyst has formed.

[PenguinHead]

with a human it is an abortion but with a chicken it is an omelet...:thumbsup:

A perfect analogy!

I don't eat animals or dairy/eggs, but I don't judge anyone who does. I'm not lamenting the little chickling that wasn't.

[~*BellaDonna*~]

Oy vey. Can't we just leave this topic alone? :(

[FuzzyPlum]

Oy vey. Can't we just leave this topic alone? :(

:confused:
So why did you just bring it up???


It was smart and responsible to have abortion. She had no business giving birth with that lifestyle and she knew it. Many people have no business having children but they have been made to feel guilty. Many of those kids aren't given up for adoption but r raised by the screwed up parent. That is one reason why there are so many unhappy screwed up kids in the world.

Absolutely. I agree.

[~*BellaDonna*~]

I was just looking thru old threads and saw it's been talked about quite a bit. So I tossed in my $00.2 but now realize that was dumb. My apologies. I didn't even realize that by saying that I accidentally brought it up. I admit that it was VERY stupid of me and I am very sorry for that. I take complete responibilty for my comment. :)

[welcomechris]

I was just looking thru old threads and saw it's been talked about quite a bit. So I tossed in my $00.2 but now realize that was dumb. My apologies. I didn't even realize that by saying that I accidentally brought it up. I admit that it was VERY stupid of me and I am very sorry for that. I take complete responibilty for my comment. :)

Don't be sorry. This is a messaging board. You're entitled to share your opinion, even on controversial subjects.

Unless the moderator said specifically not to talk about this, why should you be sorry?

Nobody on this board is better than anyone else. If you don't like the subject, Don't say anything

[~*BellaDonna*~]

Don't be sorry. This is a messaging board. You're entitled to share your opinion, even on controversial subjects.

Unless the moderator said specifically not to talk about this, why should you be sorry?

Nobody on this board is better than anyone else. If you don't like the subject, Don't say anything
Well, I wish I had kept my mouth shut on that matter, you know? Anyway, you are absolutely right - I don't have to be sorry! However, I will be a bit more careful from now on. :)

[FuzzyPlum]

Well, I wish I had kept my mouth shut on that matter, you know? Anyway, you are absolutely right - I don't have to be sorry! However, I will be a bit more careful from now on. :)

Hey, please don't take offence- I know it's a very emotive subject. It just seemed a bit bizarre to me to bring up a thread that had been dormant for 50 days, only to ask if we can we not talk about it. No need to apologise though.

[~*BellaDonna*~]

Hey, please don't take offence- I know it's a very emotive subject. It just seemed a bit bizarre to me to bring up a thread that had been dormant for 50 days, only to ask if we can we not talk about it. No need to apologise though.
No offence taken at all. I thought I had to apologise for my, uh, accidental stupidity in commenting a dormant thread and ask that we leave it alone and upon my own reflection I realize that it was not very smart and I own that. But as you and another member said, I don't have to be sorry. And you two are right, I don't. As I said before I am going to be a lot more careful with my future comments on sensitive threads/topics. I really have to remember that old 'think before you speak' rule. :p Again, I take absolutely take *no* offence in what you said, FuzzyPlum. Nice to meet you, by the way. :)