Which Members in Rock HOF?

[Madelow]

Hello All-- In the discussion thread "Breakdown of 'Kiln House', Snoot has a post that says that Danny Kirwan was included in the FM Hall lineup? Is that true? If so, why aren't all the "pre-'Rumours' members included? Peter Green's omission is stupid, imho. Best always, Madelow.:shrug:

[snoot]

See here for more Madelow.

http://www.rockhall.com/inductee/fleetwood-mac

[snoot]

If Peter were ever to have been omitted, it would be about the only thing that could top Bob Welch's de facto omission, as there never would have been a Fleetwood Mac to begin with without Green, or the B&N Mac unit and glory without Welch.*

You might want to revisit that Kiln House thread again, especially as page 2 rolls into page 3, as quite a bit of ground is covered in that discussion that touches on some of these things (about halfway down, starting with a PS by yours truly):

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=15567&page=2

But in a nutshell, suffice to say Mick pulled a copout!

* Edit PS :: Note Street Dreamer's comment regarding BW below

[chriskisn]

Hello All-- In the discussion thread "Breakdown of 'Kiln House', Snoot has a post that says that Danny Kirwan was included in the FM Hall lineup? Is that true? If so, why aren't all the "pre-'Rumours' members included? Peter Green's omission is stupid, imho. Best always, Madelow.:shrug:

Pretty much you don't want to talk about the HOF as it makes some of us cry... :laugh:

Eight in, eight forgotten. Anyone remember Bob Welch or Billy Burnette here? :mad:

[Street_Dreamer]

Pretty much you don't want to talk about the HOF as it makes some of us cry... :laugh:

Eight in, eight forgotten. Anyone remember Bob Welch or Billy Burnette here? :mad:

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the guy who Mick himself said "saved Fleetwood Mac" isn't in the hall of fame. I could take Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. not being in, but Welch, Weston and even Walker should have been in too.

Matt

[chriskisn]

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the guy who Mick himself said "saved Fleetwood Mac" isn't in the hall of fame. I could take Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. not being in, but Welch, Weston and even Walker should have been in too.

Matt

Don't you like Bob Brunning? :lol:

[snoot]

Don't you like Bob Brunning? :lol:

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

[chriskisn]

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

Although if McVie had decided to stay with Mayall then it may not have been a temporary basis.

Anyway, a member is a member - he was in the band, and if he is to be believed he did uncredited bass parts when McVie was too drunk anyway...

[Wouter Vuijk]

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

2 or 4 weeks? What the heck. At least he played their debut gig! Where John didn't want to leave the "steady bucks rolling in" with John Mayall. On the HOF it is mentioned that Peter, Mick and John started FM, accompanied by Jeremy. Bull! It was Peter, Mick and Jeremy, with Bob after auditioning on bass, knowing that he would be probably be replaced by John.

[snoot]

I do agree with Chriskisn and Wouter re Bob Brunning, for all the reasons they gave - plus his loyalty to the Mac in other ways through the years. All I meant to say was that -IF- there had been but one omission, I could understand it being Brunny's, simply because he knew in advance he was being used as a temp. But like you guys rightly state, what -IF- John never gave up his tether with Mayall, and how do you overlook the christening of Fleetwood Mac at Windsor with Bob plucking the bass?

Indeed.

PS. Wouter, that whole HOF write up is slanted conveniently for the members they did induct, even if it meant hedging a little in the name of accuracy. Try recall something Handsome Steve once noted: how can you overlook Welch when one of the 10 "essential songs" they include [Sentimental Lady] - right there on the FM HOF page - was done by him! :shrug:

Insane.

[aleuzzi]

The link is useful, not only in telling us who was inducted but in revealing (albeit unintentionally) how wrong it was to leave out Welch: Sentimental Lady is listed as one of the band's "essential songs" in the right hand column.

Add to the Welch's prominent place in the band's timeline at the bottom. He is, in a word, everywhere on the page, except in the list of inductees at the top!

[wondergirl9847]

Why couldn't all 16 be inducted? Is there some sort of HOF quota?

It's stupid to pick and choose members.

[Madelow]

Dear Snoot & All-- Thanks for all the great responses! Boy, do I feel stupid. For as long as I've loved the band, I've always assumed the Hall only counted the "Rumours" quintet. It's great to know that Peter, Jeremy, and Danny were included! Although I started my FM experiences with the White & Rumours albums, (as Christmas presents), I've come to appreciate their past as well. Bob Welch is now a favorite, and "Hypnotized" is in my top five Mac songs. Thanks for helping with my Rock Hall and FM education.:) Best wishes, Madelow.

[aleuzzi]

There have been umpteen threads on why he wasn't inducted...

In brief: he was involved in a lawsuit with Mick, John, and Chris at the time. So, the most common explanation is that the trio kept him from getting it. However, the RRHOF committee spokesperson at the time said some crap like "Bob Welch's contributions were not RRHOF calibre." A horsecrap answer for an ultimately awful omission.

[Street_Dreamer]

There have been umpteen threads on why he wasn't inducted...

In brief: he was involved in a lawsuit with Mick, John, and Chris at the time. So, the most common explanation is that the trio kept him from getting it. However, the RRHOF committee spokesperson at the time said some crap like "Bob Welch's contributions were not RRHOF calibre." A horsecrap answer for an ultimately awful omission.

ChiliD has mentioned this in other places before, but I completely agree with it; Mick should have made it a point that ALL of the members of the band be included in the hall of fame or they would decline the invitation. But of course...

Matt

[SteveMacD]

I could see Bob Brunning, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Bekka Bramlett, and Dave Mason being excluded. Their overall impact on the band wasn't that great. Weston's was, but not necessarily as a musician, and I'm not sure that's a reason to be included.

Bob Welch was a gimme. Billy Burnette and Rick Vito were in actuality part of the second most successful incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, at least in terms of concert ticket sales and album sales, so they're gimmes, too.

[snoot]

Dear Snoot & All-- Thanks for all the great responses! Boy, do I feel stupid.

Don't feel stupid at all Madelow. The only one who should feel stupid is Mick Fleetwood for letting this happen. But you know the saying, you can't fool all the people all the time. Just look at how many hip responses you received from forum members who know the true score. Just like Aleuzzi and Matt have stated, there have been members going back for years at the Ledge who have been decrying this situation, their heads spinning in disbelief.

How ANYONE could view those middle era releases, and by extension the personnel behind them, as being second class Mac productions is beyond me. The Kirwan and Welch led incantations of the band produced some of the Mac's most consistent releases when viewed cover to cover! Naturally it goes without saying that the slight to Bob Welch is the most glaring of all, one thing I think we all agree on. Hypnotized, if nothing else, should be added to those "essential songs." Bump Tusk and get it in there! :D

Mick you damn fool, what WERE you thinking?

[snoot]

I could see Bob Brunning, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Bekka Bramlett, and Dave Mason being excluded. Their overall impact on the band wasn't that great. Weston's was, but not necessarily as a musician, and I'm not sure that's a reason to be included.

Strictly in terms of overall impact, I would agree with you. But how much should that matter really? Of that group, I'd say Weston is the trickiest, since he clearly helped take Mystery To Me over the top, and in some ways helped distance it - at least in terms of reach and sophistication - from Penguin (where he was somewhat under-utilized) and Heroes (where he was missing). Other than Welch and Christy working like never before on MTM, I do believe it was Westy who added some very critical fills and accents that helped make that release shine distinctly brighter. Those three were getting in an interesting and tight groove by that point. Weston's only real weakness was in the songwriting department. Still, if he had been around during HAHTF, he may have added the missing element that would have kept Bob Welch in the game longer. [the Mac game]


Billy Burnette and Rick Vito were in actuality part of the second most successful incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, at least in terms of concert ticket sales and album sales, so they're gimmes, too.

But that's a largely circumstantial yardstick as I see it. Their legacy will for the most part be judged on the quality and freshness of the respective project releases, and there they take a back seat to the Kirwan and Welch led affairs imo. In fact, pretty clearly. I'd go so far as to say the BTM album and ticket sales deride largely on the B&N constituted (aka Rumours) "shadow" that many long time fans were tuning in for during that time, to see how and where things stood and sounded now that one of the principals went MIA. That all-encompassing aura superseded just about everything back then. By the Time release, pretty much any novelty and surprise factor had been erased, and that production didn't even chart. One only has to look at the kind of sales FM got when Lindsey and Stevie were a tandem in the fold again in '97. They went right back to #1.

OTOH, beyond the "curiosity" factor, many fans of the day WERE turned off knowing B&N tag team had fractured, so the Vito and Burnette infused units certainly had an uphill battle on their hands right from the get-go. Thus there are different ways one could view their impact and standing, and at least that much makes for a fair debate. But it doesn't change the fact that eight were unwarrantly dissed.

[chiliD]

I, yet again, use the Grateful Dead as the measure. How much impact on the Grateful Dead's music was Donna Jean Godchaux? And, she's IN. Bob Welch's impact on Fleetwood Mac was 1,000 fold to that, he's NOT.

If those "balls" that Mick can't seem to play without were actually attached to his body instead of his belt-loop, he would've INSISTED that, at least, Welch be included. I would've preferred Jerry Garcia's approach, "All or Nothing".

[Wouter Vuijk]

"All or Nothing".

That's from the Small Faces. :lol:
Are they in? For sure Steve Marriott should be.

[DavidMn]

You know the thing is, Yes Bob should be in there. However, those of us that appreciate his contribution to the history of Fleetwood Mac, he's in there in our minds anyway, in spirit if not in name. We know how vital he was in an uncertain time in the bands history, and that's what's important really.:nod:

[snoot]

If those "balls" that Mick can't seem to play without were actually attached to his body instead of his belt-loop, he would've INSISTED that, at least, Welch be included. I would've preferred Jerry Garcia's approach, "All or Nothing".

Classic LOL. :thumbsup:

However, those of us that appreciate his contribution to the history of Fleetwood Mac, he's in there in our minds anyway, in spirit if not in name. We know how vital he was in an uncertain time in the bands history, and that's what's important really.:nod:

You got that right. BW went into the Hall the day he hung up the guns with FM. You'll never fool those in the know.

[slipkid]

That's from the Small Faces. :lol:
Are they in? For sure Steve Marriott should be.

Not only are the Small Faces not in the RnR HoF, neither are The Faces. I know we're talking about Bob Welch's snub, but this is ridiculous! For all these years I thought at least the Faces were in, but it was only Rod Stewart (I just looked it up). Screw 'em! Ronnie Lane and Steve Marriot deserve their place in the hall.

[Ms Moose]

Not only are the Small Faces not in the RnR HoF, neither are The Faces. I know we're talking about Bob Welch's snub, but this is ridiculous! For all these years I thought at least the Faces were in, but it was only Rod Stewart (I just looked it up). Screw 'em! Ronnie Lane and Steve Marriot deserve their place in the hall.

I am shocked to learn that The Small Faces are not in the Rn R HoF. They were a great band!

Ms Moose

[slipkid]

I am shocked to learn that The Small Faces are not in the Rn R HoF. They were a great band!

Ms Moose

I know in the UK and Europe, the Small Faces had recognition. In America, the Faces made a larger impact, on the level of Yes, or Deep Purple (MKII). All three bands (including Jethro Tull) are seen as a joke to the RnR idiot voters. The Small Faces may make it years from now just like the Dave Clark Five. Apologies to Steve Marriot, but I always thought the Ron Wood, Ronnie Lane, Ian MacClagan, Kenny Jones, and Rod Stewart version of this band was gold!

[Wouter Vuijk]

I always thought the Ron Wood, Ronnie Lane, Ian MacClagan, Kenny Jones, and Rod Stewart version of this band was gold!

True, but Steve Marriott was platinum:D

[Wouter Vuijk]

In America, the Faces made a larger impact, on the level of Yes, or Deep Purple (MKII).

As far as I know, MKII is te second album by Steamhammer, not the strongest however. First (Reflection) and third (Mountains) were much better. A band with a fantastic singer (Kieran White) and two great guitar players (Martin Pugh and MartinQuittenton). :blob2:

[jbrownsjr]

This saddens me to no end... I will never be able to justify in my head the politics and bullsh*t that the RR hall has put out....

The problem is... they only look at $$ that's all they care about... gee there's a big surprise...

Rush isn't even in the hall of fame... they still contribute to rock and roll... albums and touring internationally...

it's all a bunch of bull**** to me... and I have no respect for that building nor the panel that votes... none... period... end of story...

[slipkid]

As far as I know, MKII is te second album by Steamhammer, not the strongest however. First (Reflection) and third (Mountains) were much better. A band with a fantastic singer (Kieran White) and two great guitar players (Martin Pugh and MartinQuittenton). :blob2:

Wouter, I'm sorry for the miscommunication. When I typed MKII I meant the second and most famous version of Deep Purple (1969-1973). That was Ian Gillan, Ritchie Blackmore, Jon Lord, Roger Glover, and Ian Paice. In english it's known as "Mark II".

[Ms Moose]

I know in the UK and Europe, the Small Faces had recognition. In America, the Faces made a larger impact, on the level of Yes, or Deep Purple (MKII). All three bands (including Jethro Tull) are seen as a joke to the RnR idiot voters. The Small Faces may make it years from now just like the Dave Clark Five. Apologies to Steve Marriot, but I always thought the Ron Wood, Ronnie Lane, Ian MacClagan, Kenny Jones, and Rod Stewart version of this band was gold!

The Faces were great too, and Rod Stewart et. al. took the music somewhere else. I have a soft spot for british music in the sixties though. Steve Marriot was The British Soul Singer par excellence much the same way that the british blues players made their own version of the blues. But Small Faces are often looked upon as "pop" which is far from the truth.
(I am sorry I know this is The Pre-Rumours section:o)

Ms Moose

[slipkid]

The Faces were great too, and Rod Stewart et. al. took the music somewhere else. I have a soft spot for british music in the sixties though. Steve Marriot was The British Soul Singer par excellence much the same way that the british blues players made their own version of the blues. But Small Faces are often looked upon as "pop" which is far from the truth.
(I am sorry I know this is The Pre-Rumours section:o)

Ms Moose

There's no question that Steve Marriot was quite a talent. I'd love to have a singer with his voice in my rock band (if I were to form one :)). I always had a Stax records vibe to early Small Faces, so I agree they weren't pop in the strictest sense. However by Ogden's Nut Gone Flake they were certainly in rock territory. "Tin Soldier" could've easily been on the first Faces album. I think for the states the band was just too British. One of their best songs "Lazy Sunday" just wouldn't translate well over here. Personally, the Anglophile in me just eats up that stuff. :p

[chiliD]

For US audiences, I think Steve Marriott would be better recognized (for HoF purposes) for his work with Humble Pie. (now there's a band that is HoF worthy!!!)

[Ms Moose]

There's no question that Steve Marriot was quite a talent. I'd love to have a singer with his voice in my rock band (if I were to form one :)). I always had a Stax records vibe to early Small Faces, so I agree they weren't pop in the strictest sense. However by Ogden's Nut Gone Flake they were certainly in rock territory. "Tin Soldier" could've easily been on the first Faces album. I think for the states the band was just too British. One of their best songs "Lazy Sunday" just wouldn't translate well over here. Personally, the Anglophile in me just eats up that stuff. :p

Yes Small Faces were very british! 'Lazy Sunday' is very very very british . It is like a music-hall song, really. But Steve Marriotts background was in theatre as a child actor/singer in that tradition.

They did an early version of 'You need Loving' which Led Zeppelin ripped of years later ('Whole Lotta Love') - exactly the same. It was on You Tube a while back. I have tried to find it for you but unfortunately it has been erased :(

Ms Moose

[michelej1]

This from a recent blog in the Times Union by J. Eric Smith, 1-31-09

http://blogs.timesunion.com/jericsmith/?p=379

I picked up a copy of Fleetwood Mac’s Future Games, probably my favorite of their albums, and one which I’d never seen in digital format before. Danny Kirwan was a genius guitar player and songwriter who got lost in the historical mix between the Peter Green/Jeremy Spencer and Lindsey Buckingham/Stevie Nicks eras. Future Games has what I consider to be his two finest songs: “Sands of Time” and “Woman of 1000 Years.” The album also marks Bob Welch’s debut with the band, and he purports himself well on the lovely and uplifting title track and the ripsnorting “Lay It All Down.” Christine McVie adds all the class that she normally does, especially on “Show Me A Smile,” which really should have been a bigger hit than (yuck) “Rhiannon.”

For the record: I will not go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame until they admit Welch as a member of Fleetwood Mac. It’s a travesty that they excluded him, since he’s the one who kept things going after Kirwan flamed out and before Buckingham-Nicks arrived. Stupid, unjust and arbitrary. I want no part of that.

[David]

This from a recent blog in the Times Union by J. Eric Smith, 1-31-09

For the record: I will not go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame until they admit Welch as a member of Fleetwood Mac. It’s a travesty that they excluded him, since he’s the one who kept things going after Kirwan flamed out and before Buckingham-Nicks arrived. Stupid, unjust and arbitrary. I want no part of that.A lot of bloggers say that & a lot of Ledgies say it, too. But "keeping the band together" isn't a criterion of admission, obviously. The music itself seems to be the criterion, & the voting board that year stated that the Green band & the Buckingham band were the only two groups who deserved on aesthetic grounds. (See Robert Hilburn's comments at the time.)

[chiliD]

A lot of bloggers say that & a lot of Ledgies say it, too. But "keeping the band together" isn't a criterion of admission, obviously. The music itself seems to be the criterion, & the voting board that year stated that the Green band & the Buckingham band were the only two groups who deserved on aesthetic grounds. (See Robert Hilburn's comments at the time.)

Robert Hillburn is no judge of artistic merit...he's a hack. A well-known hack. Just because he writes for the LA Times doesn't mean his opinion is worth more than a pile of beagle diarrhea. I hate him...hated reading every one of his pompous self-grandizing articles in the Calendar (or as I call it, the "Collander") section...the Times Sunday "fish wrap" section.

[nicepace]

... the Times Sunday "fish wrap" section.

Gosh, Chili, tell us what you really think. <lol>

Personally, since I enjoy the Welch era the most of any eras of the band, I think leaving Bob out was a mistake, but since induction into the R+R HOF seems basically random, I really don't care.

[Madelow]

This from a recent blog in the Times Union by J. Eric Smith, 1-31-09

http://blogs.timesunion.com/jericsmith/?p=379

I picked up a copy of Fleetwood Mac’s Future Games, probably my favorite of their albums, and one which I’d never seen in digital format before. Danny Kirwan was a genius guitar player and songwriter who got lost in the historical mix between the Peter Green/Jeremy Spencer and Lindsey Buckingham/Stevie Nicks eras. Future Games has what I consider to be his two finest songs: “Sands of Time” and “Woman of 1000 Years.” The album also marks Bob Welch’s debut with the band, and he purports himself well on the lovely and uplifting title track and the ripsnorting “Lay It All Down.” Christine McVie adds all the class that she normally does, especially on “Show Me A Smile,” which really should have been a bigger hit than (yuck) “Rhiannon.”

For the record: I will not go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame until they admit Welch as a member of Fleetwood Mac. It’s a travesty that they excluded him, since he’s the one who kept things going after Kirwan flamed out and before Buckingham-Nicks arrived. Stupid, unjust and arbitrary. I want no part of that.

Hello All-- I'm loving all your responses. I've learned so much. Special agreement with the above "Future Games" blog. "Sands of Time", and "Woman of a Thousand Years" are my two favorite Kirwan songs. Beautiful blends of lyric and melody, they contribute to an important part of Mac history. Essential, imho. Best always, Madelow.