Executed man's last request honored -- pizza for homeless

[sara1998]

(CNN) -- Hundreds of homeless people in Nashville, Tennessee, ate well Wednesday evening -- all in the name of a man who the state put to death just hours earlier.

Philip Workman, 53, requested that his final meal be a vegetarian pizza donated to any homeless person located near Riverbend Maximum Security Institution.

He was executed there at 2 a.m. ET Wednesday. (Watch witnesses describe his last moments )

But prison officials refused to honor his request, saying that they do not donate to charities.

That apparently upset a few people willing to pay for and deliver a lot of pies themselves.

Homeless shelters across Nashville were inundated with donated pizzas all Wednesday. (Watch homeless feast on piles of pizza )

"I was like, 'Wow, Jesus!' " said Marvin Champion, an employee of Nashville's Rescue Mission, which provides overnight shelter, food and assistance to more than 800 homeless people a night.

"I used to be homeless, so I know how rough it gets. I seen some bad times -- not having enough food, the cupboards are bare. But we got pizza to feed enough people for awhile," Champion said.

"This really shows the people here that someone out there thought of them."

$1,200 worth of pies
Donna Spangler heard about Workman's request and immediately called her friends. They all pitched in for the $1,200 bill to buy 150 pizzas, which they sent to the Rescue Mission.

"Philip Workman was trying to do a good deed and no one would help him," said the 55-year-old who recruited a co-worker to help her make the massive delivery Wednesday evening.

"I knew my husband would have a heart attack -- I put some of it on the credit card. But I thought we'll find a way to pay for them later," she said. "I just felt like I had to do something positive."

Spangler wasn't the only person to place an order in Workman's name.

The president of the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals read a news story about the prison denying the inmate's last request and ordered 15 veggie pizzas sent to the Rescue Mission Wednesday morning.

"Workman's act was selfless, and kindness to all living beings is a virtue," said PETA President Ingrid Newkirk.

Not far away, 17 pizzas arrived at Nashville's Oasis Center, a shelter that helps about 260 teenagers in crisis. By 9 p.m. ET, more pizzas had arrived, said executive director Hal Cato.

"We talked to the kids and they understand what this is tied to and they know that this man [Workman] wanted to do something to point out the problems of homelessness."

When Workman robbed a Wendy's in Memphis, Tennessee, in 1981, he was a strung-out cocaine addict looking for a way to pay for his next high, he has said.

He was homeless at the time. Workman was convicted of shooting and killing Memphis Police Lt. Ronald Oliver during the robbery.

Many of the pizzas ordered in Workman's name were delivered anonymously, but the first 17 at Oasis Center came from a Minneapolis, Minnesota, radio station that devoted much of its morning show time talking about Workman's request.

"They were upset about it," said Cato.

He plans to call other homeless shelters in Nashville Thursday and share the pies. "They should be able to benefit from this, too," he said.

Cliff Tredway, the director of public relations for the Rescue Mission, said it's more than pizzas that helped that shelter.

"It's the story of a guy whose execution translated into a generous act," he said. "It's people donating to other people they don't know.

"It's about a group of people who society often writes off getting a pizza party today."



I don't know why, but this struck a chord with me. Here, we have a man who is about to lose his life to the death penalty, and his last request was for pizza to be delivered to the homeless... It just kinda got to me.

[Tee Dee]

WOW! Incredible! Thanks for posting.

[skcin]

I just read this. Shame the prison system itself couldn't honor his last request, but it's great that so many donated to the cause.

[The Tower]

I just read this. Shame the prison system itself couldn't honor his last request, but it's great that so many donated to the cause.
The real shame is that he was executed.

[JazmenFlowers]

I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

[skcin]

The real shame is that he was executed.

I'm not getting into that argument. :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

The real shame is that he was executed.I couldn't possibly agree more.

[seeker007nmss]

The real shame is that he was executed.


It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

[The Tower]

It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.
Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.

[BlackWidow]

I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

That is great to hear you do that!!!:angel:

[seeker007nmss]

Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.

75% or released prisoners commit crimes again. Doesn't sound like "one situation - out of control". Once , First time, - all the excuses, fine. Repeat offenders - responsibility for ones actions. and don't forget THE VICTIMS. They are the ones that need our attention. If you are a repeat burden on society, then you should be removed. Not all human life is worth saving - their actions prove themselves not human. I have no compassion for repeat offenders of violent crimes. First time - all the excuses you want to name - second, third, fourth, enough is enough.... Remove from existance.

[The Tower]

75% or released prisoners commit crimes again. Doesn't sound like "one situation - out of control". Once , First time, - all the excuses, fine. Repeat offenders - responsibility for ones actions. and don't forget THE VICTIMS. They are the ones that need our attention. If you are a repeat burden on society, then you should be removed. Not all human life is worth saving - their actions prove themselves not human. I have no compassion for repeat offenders of violent crimes. First time - all the excuses you want to name - second, third, fourth, enough is enough.... Remove from existance.
Well, why not make it easy? Why wait until they commit the second crime?? Since so many criminals (75%) commit another crime, just execute them all. After all, who would want to be responsible for letting a criminal out of jail- only to murder someone's relative?

[GateandGarden]

- their actions prove themselves not human.

Wow, well if you really believe that, then nothing I can say would mean a thing.

[irishgrl]

The real shame is that he was executed.
how so? you dont get on death row by being a boy scout for cripes sake :shrug:

Im not saying he should have died, but I find it interesting that his crime was not mentioned......

ETA:


It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.
agreed.

the last act of a convicted criminal no matter how altruistic cannot erase the act(s) that put him on death row in the first place. irregardless of whether you believe death penalty is right or not, the true miracle here is the generosity of those that donated pizzas for the homeless, not that a condemned man chose to use his last wish in such a manner :shrug:

I guess if I felt the hand of imminent doom upon me, I'd try to atone for sin too :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.
ahem: revenge would be the victim's family pursuing vigilante justice;
justice is letting the accused have his day in court w/representation and appeals and whatnot. People dont hit death row overnight. This man had plenty of time to impact his fate and was unsuccessful. Thus, your argument fails.

[GateandGarden]

ahem: revenge would be the victim's family pursuing vigilante justice;
justice is letting the accused have his day in court w/representation and appeals and whatnot. People dont hit death row overnight. This man had plenty of time to impact his fate and was unsuccessful. Thus, your argument fails.Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.

[carrie721]

Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.

word! preach it! ita! etc. :xoxo:

[irishgrl]

Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.
no. revenge is not about justice. revenge is about getting even. concepts like representation and appeal and clemency do not apply in revenge.

Justice is about seeing that the right balance is struck between a wrong and reparation. Revenge doesnt do that.

Regardless of whether you think the death penalty is right or not, the basic law of the universe holds that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Many ancient cultures characterized it as the "eye for an eye" principle. Here, the defendant/convicted (CONVICTED) criminal has recourse to challenge the charges and/or sentence. In "revenge," no such recourse is available. You are making an emotional argument based on your dislike of the death penalty. You are totally missing the big picture of the wrongs committed, ie: the original crimes the defendant committed which harmed many innocents, either directly or indirectly.

BTW: an argument could also be made that the defendant had to pay a karmic debt from a past life and orchestrated events in THIS life to bring him to this point where he would pay the ultimate price. I happen to firmly believe this scenario. We all choose our circumstances based on the lessons we need to learn. I myself have looked death in the eye and said "if its my time, its my time." apparently it wasnt my time then.

[irishgrl]

word! preach it! ita! etc. :xoxo:
what is a synonym for "surprised?" cuz thats what I am. nuff said.

[carrie721]

what is a synonym for "surprised?" cuz thats what I am. nuff said.

oh, get off it.

[irishgrl]

oh, get off it.
you first. cute shoes btw.

[carrie721]

you first. cute shoes btw.

blah blah blah. i disagree with you, and i agree with hillary. i don't wanna get in an argument b/c issues like this never get resolved. there are just too many people who are executed who are later found innocent, so :shrug: i can't support the DP.

[irishgrl]

blah blah blah. i disagree with you, and i agree with hillary. i don't wanna get in an argument b/c issues like this never get resolved. there are just too many people who are executed who are later found innocent, so :shrug: i can't support the DP.
Im not saying that doesnt happen but in the grand scheme of things, the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans. You can agree with whoever you want to. I myself am conflicted regarding the death penalty but that doesnt mean that I can forgive a convicted murderer based on the fact that generous people everywhere fed the homeless because of his denied request. Sorry. oh and for good measure: blah blah blah blah.

[carrie721]

Im not saying that doesnt happen but in the grand scheme of things, the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans. You can agree with whoever you want to. I myself am conflicted regarding the death penalty but that doesnt mean that I can forgive a convicted murderer based on the fact that generous people everywhere fed the homeless because of his denied request. Sorry. oh and for good measure: blah blah blah blah.

who said anything about forgiveness? i certainly didn't ... i haven't read every word of this thread tho ...

blah blah.

[irishgrl]

who said anything about forgiveness? i certainly didn't ... i haven't read every word of this thread tho ...

blah blah.
forgiveness is divine by the way...

[GateandGarden]

no. revenge is not about justice. revenge is about getting even. concepts like representation and appeal and clemency do not apply in revenge.And you just decided that? Seems like the same thing to me, just with some formalities such as what you named.

Justice is about seeing that the right balance is struck between a wrong and reparation. Revenge doesnt do that.But capital punishment restores that balance, you're saying? Just an example, but the Navajo are very much in favor of this concept of restoring balance in the universe, but their culture prohibits the death penalty. I guess, like me, they haven't figured out how putting blood on more people's hands restores balance.

Regardless of whether you think the death penalty is right or not, the basic law of the universe holds that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Many ancient cultures characterized it as the "eye for an eye" principle.I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.

Here, the defendant/convicted (CONVICTED) criminal has recourse to challenge the charges and/or sentence. In "revenge," no such recourse is available. You are making an emotional argument based on your dislike of the death penalty. You are totally missing the big picture of the wrongs committed, ie: the original crimes the defendant committed which harmed many innocents, either directly or indirectly.Do those people come back to life after "justice" is carried out? Sorry for the irritating rhetorical question. By bringing the victim into the equation, are you not playing on emotions? The pro-death penalty people are typically the emotional ones, talking about how the victim's family will feel so comforted once the defendant is put to death. What the hell does that matter in a court of law?

BTW: an argument could also be made that the defendant had to pay a karmic debt from a past life and orchestrated events in THIS life to bring him to this point where he would pay the ultimate price. I happen to firmly believe this scenario. We all choose our circumstances based on the lessons we need to learn. I myself have looked death in the eye and said "if its my time, its my time." apparently it wasnt my time then.Yeah...okay. I've believed some bizarre spiritual things in my life...still cling to some of them. But none of that belongs in a supposedly secular debate pertaining to law if we have separation of church and state and all that good stuff. I mean, we hardly do in this country, but let's pretend.

Of course Carrie is right--there isn't really a point in talking about it but then I'm finished with exams so what the hell.

[GateandGarden]

...the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans.Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.

[irishgrl]

And you just decided that? Seems like the same thing to me, just with some formalities such as what you named.

But capital punishment restores that balance, you're saying? Just an example, but the Navajo are very much in favor of this concept of restoring balance in the universe, but their culture prohibits the death penalty. I guess, like me, they haven't figured out how putting blood on more people's hands restores balance.

I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.

Do those people come back to life after "justice" is carried out? Sorry for the irritating rhetorical question. By bringing the victim into the equation, are you not playing on emotions? The pro-death penalty people are typically the emotional ones, talking about how the victim's family will feel so comforted once the defendant is put to death. What the hell does that matter in a court of law?

Yeah...okay. I've believed some bizarre spiritual things in my life...still cling to some of them. But none of that belongs in a supposedly secular debate pertaining to law if we have separation of church and state and all that good stuff. I mean, we hardly do in this country, but let's pretend.

Of course Carrie is right--there isn't really a point in talking about it but then I'm finished with exams so what the hell.
you give me too much credit. I didnt "decide" anything. Im just reiteriting it. (get a dictionary)

ok, as to your theory that the Navaho approach being the only one: sorry. I think its a bit presumptuous to engage in a discussion about what the Navaho believe without having them nearby.

I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.
this is a spectacular misstatement of my intent :D good work!

Please dont be so silly as to propose simplistic cause/effect isues: the law of Karma is even more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity. I believe that as spiritual beings we choose situations that enable us to learn from our past mistakes.

more later.

[irishgrl]

Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.
well, you just sounded like an alarmist to say otherwise. the sad fact is, when you compare justifiably condemded criminals with potentially innocent criminals, the numbers show that innocently condemned criminals are FAR in the minority;

If you want to indulge your bleeding heart tendancies, then go right ahead.

[irishgrl]

Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.
ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

[carrie721]

ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

wow. i really am shocked to read that.

[paleshadow]

It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

Thanks for pointing that out. I noticed the article didn't say anything about that. How much of a sacrafice or selflessness is it to donate Pizza's that you aren't paying for to homeless people, regardless on where you stand on the issue of capital punishment.

[sparky]

I suppose it is a cute story and all,
but, the guy committed armed robbery and killed a cop.
The only problem I have with his death is the timing.
Too bad someone didn't take him out at the scene and just simplify the whole process.

It's cool that hungry people got fed though.:shrug:

[amber]

^^^

Your efficient tendencies are admirable, they kind of speak to me. Feed some homeless people, kill some criminals before they drain taxpayer dollars.
But sort of joking but not really aside...

This thread is interesting because I agree with everyone. Wait, I mean, this thread is interesting AND I agree with everyone. Immigration and Death Penalty are my two non-extremely-liberal exceptions to my extremely liberal mindset. I decided awhile back not to be for death penalty, because it easily isn't fair, and because the U.S. justice and other systems are very flawed. It was hard, though, and I still fight it.

But I think there is something between the two extremes. There just isn't much place for it in our society, America.

I just read an article about Denmark (National Geographic) and they have hardly any crime, and also a huge social net. Social net meaning that there will never be huge discrepancies between rich and poor, everyone is provided for. Their country runs smoothly, placidly, perfectly, on time, etc. Also in other readings of mine, I came across the factoid that in Japan, you can totally leave your bike on the streets and it won't get stolen. And this concept basically extends to the crime rate in general. I think there are other European countries with similar stories. Like, don't cops in England not have guns, or something? I remember reading that, not sure if it is true.

Every alive thing on the planet fights for resources, humans always have, and so does everything else. So when people don't have resources, they will get them however they can. Be it land, money, food, mates, copper beads, water - whatever.

So, for instance, say a particular race of people have been denied resources for hundreds of years, say they were just imported to work, and looked down on b/c of their skin color only. Naturally, they will turn to whatever means they can to survive, and that cycle feeds on itself. And America has a particularly nasty gap between haves and have nots. And a particularly bigoted past and present. Our country is supposed to be so enlightened, and we have so many resources, natural and human - but the resources are allotted so divergently, and so colored by prejudice at every moment, ethnic and financial. From then until now.
And our culture supports that - it's a consumer culture who's whole point is that achievement is largely based on how much you have. Ironically, we would never be so wealthy without slave labor. Be it real slaves from the past, or cheap immigrant labor we have now. Capitalism succeeds when people have resources and cheap labor. It's intrinsic to the concept. That is what Capitalism IS.

So, what do we expect? We tell people they are "something" if they have stuff, but actually a small percentage really have the opportunity to have stuff. And not just regular stuff. Tons of stuff is the ideal. Like, millionaires. Big houses. Excess. We celebrate that culturewide as an achievement. Something to aspire to. When really, like 1% of the population owns 95% of stuff. If we present that as a cultural ideal, we can hardly be suprised at the mindset of people who choose criminal ways to achieve that ideal. Far beyond necessary survival basics - cause America doesn't celebrate necessary survival basics. It's not good enough. Other people have better stuff, and therefore are better. It's what we advertise, it's what we think. It's the American dream. It couldn't possibly be enough to have adequate food and shelter, and a full if humble life. It's funny that with all that, Americans are the most unhappy population. Think about that. We have the most, but are least happy, and have hella crime. A country with this much should be ashamed of its crime rate, and its educational level. There's people in Africa who have to walk 3 miles to get water for the day and who's parents have died from AIDS that are happier and more satisfied than we are. lol.

Doesn't mean it's right, just means it is culturally and politically fostered. And has been for hundreds of years. It's basically the foundation of this country. Besides all the other lofty conceptual thoughts of the foundation, which haven't been practiced that well.
We're like a beautiful apple infested with worms. Or something. :laugh:

High crime rates and gun violence and other violence are not necessarily an inevitable part of society, at least not to the degree that they are here. Clearly, there are social and political models in place elsewhere that greatly diminish the horrors we live with in America. I think looking at those models and how they work would accomplish a lot more than the endless "death penalty, no death penalty" debate. America is a terrible country for addressing the reasons that people commit crimes. We're like Western Medicine - we treat the symptom, not the cause of the symptom. We imagine that certain things are inevitable, that that is "just how society is". But it's not, and other countries prove it is not. It is just how we are, because of how we are. America as a concept is violent and greedy. Should we expect the people who comprise America to be different?

Nowthen, about death penalty, my opinion of - I don't value human life very much, especially since there is too much of it. In other species' worlds, assholes will be killed, weak specimens will not survive, and the social construct of the species is conformed to, or else. It is what enables the society to run smoothly, and the best genes to survive. I tend to agree with that somewhat. But when you are talking about humans, they are too complex to make it that simple (I didn't mean to be so Darwinian, but, you know). The thing is also, humans will not be fair. Humans are flawed in ways that the rest of the natural world is not. So just by virtue of knowing that someone, somewhere, could not be treated fairly even in the throes of our supposedly wonderful justice system (not - I mean, just think of Texas) makes me not able to officially endorse the death penalty. I gotta be honest, I don't usually mind about it. But especially knowing how flawed people/America/Justice is, despite what we say - with all the obvious prejudice and political and financial machinations that could, and often are, a factor in "justice", and the fact that I believe that violence begets more violence - America is a prime example of that - I just can't officially support death penalty.

Maybe in another type of system, I would be able to. Maybe if I was a wolf or a cheetah, it would be fine. :laugh: And I really don't usually mind if bitches die. But looking around the world, I can't help but think our culture begets the ills it is experiencing. Which doesn't make crime right, but it doesn't make the death penalty right, either. The answer is something else, something different, a new paradigm (for us - others already employ the awesome other paradigm).

And the point against the death penalty, is that, injustice for some can easily lead to injustice for all. Although I do agree that our system, for the most part, does give people the chance to prove their innocence. But not so much that I would trust it implicitly. But then you say, well, but do the guilty people actually have to DIE?! And I say, I can't speak very well to that, because I don't care that much if people die. But in keeping with my decision, I would have to say life incarceration. I also actually think life incarceration is much more cruel than death, but that is neither here nor there, I suppose.

Also, a particularly "assholish" part of me thinks that if people didn't keep having kids that they couldn't raise/provide for/EDUCATE properly, that would be really cool. I'd also like to say that the disgraceful state of American education has a part in that. But still. In the rest of the species world, kids aren't a right. They are dependent on resources. Unfortunatly it is a fact that the less educated people are, the more politicians will be able to f*ck them. Doesn't make education a high priority in a capitalist country.

[GateandGarden]

you give me too much credit. I didnt "decide" anything. Im just reiteriting it. (get a dictionary)You stated your opinion like it was a fact. That was all I was trying to say.

ok, as to your theory that the Navaho approach being the only one: sorry. I think its a bit presumptuous to engage in a discussion about what the Navaho believe without having them nearby. :laugh: Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.


this is a spectacular misstatement of my intent :D good work!Er...thanks! :laugh: I didn't think you really believed that we should rape rapists, etc...I was attempting to make a point...oh never mind.

Please dont be so silly as to propose simplistic cause/effect isues: the law of Karma is even more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity. I believe that as spiritual beings we choose situations that enable us to learn from our past mistakes.Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?

[GateandGarden]

ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.Well, like I like to tell people good thing you aren't poor and black! 'Cause you could easily be the innocent one who is never proven innocent and has to die anyway. If you've done any research on the death penalty in the United States, you know how blatantly racist it is, how even people who look more "stereotypically" ethnic are more likely to be convicted because people equate their looks with criminality. The death penalty is inherently a biased system anyway. You have human beings deciding the fates of human beings; people are unavoidably fallible. Miscarriage of justice is inevitable anyway, but with our abundance of social ills, the situation is exacerbated.

But I don't guess any of this really means anything to you, based on that statement I'm trying to respond to here.

[GateandGarden]

well, you just sounded like an alarmist to say otherwise. the sad fact is, when you compare justifiably condemded criminals with potentially innocent criminals, the numbers show that innocently condemned criminals are FAR in the minority;How can this be proven, anyway? I have never understood that. I'm sure there are people who were innocent and it will never be known that they were innocent. I don't see that it matters anyway, as I said. No innocent person should be executed. It's one thing to be an innocent person serving years in jail and quite another to lose your life. Additionally, I think that murder is just wrong, whether it's a solitary citizen committing it or the government, which is arguably worse.

If you want to indulge your bleeding heart tendancies, then go right ahead.Thanks for the permission. I think more people should give a ****.

[strandinthewind]

AMBER'S BACK - and vociferous, if not obstreperous, as ever :laugh: :p

Seriously - welcome back darlin'

As for the death penalty and convictions in general - of course there are errors and that sucks. But, the US has the best system there is and, in fact, it heavily leans toward the presumption of error, especially when constitutional rights are violated (caveat, the last 40 or so years have seen a gradual breakdown of the Fourth Amendment's guarantee of no illegal search and seizure). So, I think though mistakes do happen, they are the exception and not the rule and there is no better system I can think of. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.

Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high :shrug: If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.

As for the death penalty and/or killing the perp at the scene – yes, it would be nice if the police knew for certain that the perp was guilty – a good example is the Cho freak at Va Tech – I say kill him on the spot. But, I know that the law prevents that and rightly so because although things may look one way in the heat of the moment, they may be something else. For example, the police may find a woman killing a man with a gun. She may be doing it in self defense of a rape or her own death – so, killing her then would be unwarranted.

Anyway – my $0.02

[irishgrl]

As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.


Thanks for that, I was just about to say the same thing.

and this:
Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.


totally on target. There has to be SOME sort of consequence for criminal acts. Im not 100% comfortable with the death penalty, but as a taxpayer, Im not sure I want to support violent, repeat offenders for the rest of their lives.

Again, in the overall prison population, only a small percentage are actually put to death.

[irishgrl]

:laugh: Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.
I think its unwise to compare disparate cultures, or to think that what works for one culture would necessarily work for another.

Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?

Karma is not ridiculous. Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity. What I was stating in my comment was my belief that we as spiritual beings choose our circumstances so that we position ourselves to learn particular lessons. I think spirituality is very important in this context because a moral center (or lack thereof) is key to a person's acts
:shrug: Of course, I am aware that an exaggerated belief system can also be a problem :o

[GateandGarden]

I think its unwise to compare disparate cultures, or to think that what works for one culture would necessarily work for another.Wait...you reason changed. Before, you didn't want me to talk about the Navajo because they aren't here. Now you're saying that cultures can't learn anything from one another? No doubt it's insane to push one's culture onto others, but that doesn't mean that that there's nothing to be gained from taking cues from other cultures, or at least considering it.

Karma is not ridiculous. Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity. What I was stating in my comment was my belief that we as spiritual beings choose our circumstances so that we position ourselves to learn particular lessons. I think spirituality is very important in this context because a moral center (or lack thereof) is key to a person's acts
:shrug: Of course, I am aware that an exaggerated belief system can also be a problem :o"Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity." I just had to re-type that because I'm just floored that someone is using karma as an argument for capital punishment in a supposedly secular criminal justice system. Maybe it's as fair as considering what the Navajo believe, but it just cracks me up nonetheless.

[DrummerDeanna]

totally on target. There has to be SOME sort of consequence for criminal acts. Im not 100% comfortable with the death penalty, but as a taxpayer, Im not sure I want to support violent, repeat offenders for the rest of their lives.

Again, in the overall prison population, only a small percentage are actually put to death.

Against my better judgement I'm chiming in - but it costs more to keep people on Death Row than it does to keep them in prison for life. Those appeals and what not obviously very costly...so from a taxpayer standpoint alone -wouldn't life with no parole be better than death penalty which costs you, the taxpayer, more?

I'll try to scare up some articles on this little statistic but I know I've read that several times...

[skcin]

I'm with Amber. I'm not really against it, to be honest. In this case, the guy killed a cop, acknowledged his guilt & accepted his penalty.

BUT. To know there are some people who are innocent but could be executed concerns me greatly. To say that their lives don't add up to a hill of beans is shocking to me. Comparing lives to beans? Wow. I know it's just a saying, but wow.

DNA testing has made great advances in recent years, but you need time & money & people WILLING to look at your case again & do the testing. I have to bring up the recent Bike Path Rapist case here. They had the wrong guy in jail for over 25 years. :mad: The family & his lawyers had requested DNA testing repeatedly in the past, and they were told the evidence was lost - it suddenly turned up earlier this year. An innocent man (who is schizophrenic, btw) who lost half of his adult life. The ONLY reason his case was reviewed again was because they found the real perp. That's not justice. Thank God the death penalty wasn't an option in this case.

[irishgrl]

Wait...you reason changed. Before, you didn't want me to talk about the Navajo because they aren't here. Now you're saying that cultures can't learn anything from one another? No doubt it's insane to push one's culture onto others, but that doesn't mean that that there's nothing to be gained from taking cues from other cultures, or at least considering it.

"Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity." I just had to re-type that because I'm just floored that someone is using karma as an argument for capital punishment in a supposedly secular criminal justice system. Maybe it's as fair as considering what the Navajo believe, but it just cracks me up nonetheless.
I'll try to clarify: I typed that first bit about the Navaho in haste last night and this morning tried to posit a more reasonable argument. Im not saying that other viewpoints arent worthy, certainly what the Navaho do works for them. In a way, I wish we COULD successfully incorporate other cultural solutions.

I dont find the juxtaposition of a spiritual concept with a secular activity so strange, particularly in this case because "intent" is a huge component of any crime. The actor's mind-set. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Against my better judgement I'm chiming in - but it costs more to keep people on Death Row than it does to keep them in prison for life. Those appeals and what not obviously very costly...so from a taxpayer standpoint alone -wouldn't life with no parole be better than death penalty which costs you, the taxpayer, more?

I'll try to scare up some articles on this little statistic but I know I've read that several times...
I'd be interested in seeing those, because if the majority of death row inmates are poor blacks, Im thinking there's probably very few actual appeals going on......

[strandinthewind]

I'd be interested in seeing those, because if the majority of death row inmates are poor blacks, . . . .

Is that actually true?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/Blumeetal.pdf

As an aside many of the death row or hard timers know the law better than most lawyers. But and in any event, they have access to legal aid and many high up lawyers will take a case pro bono. Having said that, there is WAY more to be done regarding indigent defense. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/id.htm

[DrummerDeanna]

One very interesting site I found:

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

Still looking for actual news articles or perhaps academic ones - a lot of the links don't work...but I'll keep a looking when I get the chance...

[strandinthewind]

One very interesting site I found:

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

Still looking for actual news articles or perhaps academic ones - a lot of the links don't work...but I'll keep a looking when I get the chance...

Interesting article. I am on a comp that is not very good -- so it was hard to read the text.

I think, though, that the article assumed that the life behind bars group did not appeal. If this is so, then the numbers are incorrect because that group also appeals and those appellate costs should be considered.

Again, :sorry: if I misread and I enjoyed reading the parts I could!!!

[DrummerDeanna]

Interesting article. I am on a comp that is not very good -- so it was hard to read the text.

I think, though, that the article assumed that the life behind bars group did not appeal. If this is so, then the numbers are incorrect because that group also appeals and those appellate costs should be considered.

Again, :sorry: if I misread and I enjoyed reading the parts I could!!!

Hmm...yeah I'm not sure if those things were taken into consideration, I read it about halfway through then had to get some actual work done...

And many of the articles I'm finding are either pro-death penalty or anti-death penalty - so I'd love to find some that were not written by groups with a clear agenda.

[Sarah]

I have weird feelings about the death penalty.

For me, it's like, yeah, I recognize that it sucks. But then, hey, it kind of sucks that the killer gets a less grotesque death than a victim. If it didn't cost tons of money, and if prison was way, way more punishment than it actually is, I'd much prefer to see the selfish sons-of-bitches rot in solitary confinement with no tv, no tp, and bread and water for 40 to 50 years. Violent criminals should just sit there and have nothing to do but think about what they've done over and over and over. No basketball courts, either. It's jumping jacks in your 6 x 6 if you feel the need to buff up, bucko.

[irishgrl]

Dee, I found this from Niki's website...looks like you may have a point.....

California spends millions more on capital cases
California spends $90 Million dollars annually above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988). In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. (New York Times, January 14, 2003).


well, well, Niki's fact sheet disproved the stereotypical "death row is disproportionately populated by blacks" theory (which many (Including myself and Amber apparently!) mistakenly believed):

Races on Death Row:
White: 45%
Black 42%
Hispanic 11%
Other 2%

Race of Death Row Inmates actually executed:
White 57%
Black 34%
Hispanic 7%
Other 2%

Another interesting tidbit: 80% of the time, the victims in Death Row cases are White.

California has the most inmates on death row (660) but Texas and Virginia executed the most death row inmates. A death sentence in CA is not necessarily a death sentence apparently.....

[strandinthewind]

What does

. . . above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).

mean? Capital cases do not require any more prep than a life case - at least no significant amount at the trial level. And, certainly lifers appeal as much as the death row inmates :shrug: So, I am not understanding the numbers behind these stats.

And -

In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. (New York Times, January 14, 2003).


Is that an addition to the prison overall or just that one hall of inmates? Me thinks that figure is being manipulated.

[strandinthewind]

. . . And many of the articles I'm finding are either pro-death penalty or anti-death penalty - so I'd love to find some that were not written by groups with a clear agenda.


Me either - and this computer sucks :laugh:

[Rickypt]

well, well, Niki's fact sheet disproved the stereotypical "death row is disproportionately populated by blacks" theory (which many (Including myself and Amber apparently!) mistakenly believed):



If blacks make up 13% of the total population in America, yet 42% of all death row inmates, then death row is most certainly disproportionately populated by blacks. No one is saying there are more black people on death row than whites, the key word is "disproportionate".


Another interesting tidbit: 80% of the time, the victims in Death Row cases are White.

Interesting and not surprising.

[irishgrl]

If blacks make up 13% of the total population in America, yet 42% of all death row inmates, then death row is most certainly disproportionately populated by blacks. No one is saying there are more black people on death row than whites, the key word is "disproportionate".




Interesting and not surprising.
are they in fact only 13% of the population? I'd venture to say thats not the case in CA :shrug: I guess I'll take a quick look at the Census data for CA...

ETA: apparently the total US proportion of Blacks is a little over 12% and in CA, Blacks comprise approx 6%

well, then, are those fact sheets from the Death Penalty Info site to be trusted after all? :shrug:

[Rickypt]

well, then, are those fact sheets from the Death Penalty Info site to be trusted after all? :shrug:

Of course...they give the facts. I was just saying that the interpretation that blacks are disproportionately represented on death row is an accurate one.

[irishgrl]

What does



mean? Capital cases do not require any more prep than a life case - at least no significant amount at the trial level. And, certainly lifers appeal as much as the death row inmates :shrug: So, I am not understanding the numbers behind these stats.

And -



Is that an addition to the prison overall or just that one hall of inmates? Me thinks that figure is being manipulated.
I doubt that facility was ever built, remember CA was having financial troubles then, and many counties were declaring bankruptcy and State Employees were paid via voucher.

Gosh, if we cant trust fact sheets to be factual, where do we get solid info?

[sparky]

If blacks make up 13% of the total population in America, yet 42% of all death row inmates, then death row is most certainly disproportionately populated by blacks. No one is saying there are more black people on death row than whites, the key word is "disproportionate".



I always find this kind of statistic confusing, and perhaps even misleading.

Is the number supposed to indicate simply that more blacks get the death penalty than any other race, all crimes being equal, or is it simply a reflection of the percentage of the number of blacks convicted of crimes eligible for the death penalty?

What I am getting at is are there simply more blacks on death row because there are just that many more blacks committing crimes that get them there?
I truly don't know.

I guess the telling statistic would be what percentage of each race eligible for the death penalty gets that pinned to their sentence. This statistic is kind of without a point unless that is known.

[irishgrl]

Of course...they give the facts. I was just saying that the interpretation that blacks are disproportionately represented on death row is an accurate one.
it depends: if you are looking at the RACE factor then ok, but if you are looking at the raw data, then they dont appear to be targets as some might think. I guess it makes a difference which point you are trying to make, whether there are more Blacks on Death Row or more Blacks compared to their proportion of the total population.

I personally dont see why race needs to be brought into this :shrug:

ETA: sparky said it better :lol:

[irishgrl]

I always find this kind of statistic confusing, and perhaps even misleading.

Is the number supposed to indicate simply that more blacks get the death penalty than any other race, all crimes being equal, or is it simply a reflection of the percentage of the number of blacks convicted of crimes eligible for the death penalty?

What I am getting at is are there simply more blacks on death row because there are just that many more blacks committing crimes that get them there?
I truly don't know.

I guess the telling statistic would be what percentage of each race eligible for the death penalty gets that pinned to their sentence. This statistic is kind of without a point unless that is known.
sparky, this may help:

Race of Death Row Inmates actually executed:
White 57%
Black 34%
Hispanic 7%
Other 2%

[Rickypt]

I guess the telling statistic would be what percentage of each race eligible for the death penalty gets that pinned to their sentence.

I completely agree. I wonder if this data exists. Without it, we can only come to our own conclusions and interpretations. To me, the percentage of blacks in death row compared to their overall percentage of society suggests racism in the judicial system. Especially when combined with the info posted by irishgirl about 80% of death penalty cases having a white victim.

Others might come to the conclusion, as you suggested, that the higher percentage is simply the result of higher percentage of blacks engaging in crimes that would get them a death penalty sentence.

[Rickypt]

sparky, this may help:

I think what sparky is saying is it would be helpful to know the breakdown, by race, of people who were eligible for the death penalty sentence and actually received it. For example, if 50% of whites who were eligible based on their crime actually wound up on death row, but 77% of blacks who were eligible wound up on death row, then that would surely suggest a racial bias.

[Rickypt]

I personally dont see why race needs to be brought into this :shrug:


I don't think you can have a complete discussion of death penalty without bringing in race.

I didn't really intend to get into this thread. Abortion and death penalty are two topics I don't normally discuss with people. I was just responding that blacks are indeed disproportionately represented on death row compared to their percentage of the overall population. The reasons why is a whole different discussion.

[strandinthewind]

. . . the percentage of blacks in death row compared to their overall percentage of society suggests racism in the judicial system . . . .

This is an interesting point, but it's validity somewhat depends on the premise I noted earlier. Does the socioeconomic background of these black murderers (and other criminals) somehow excuse the conduct to the point that we can call their subsequent convictions and executions a conscious act of racism?

An interesting distinction could be to compare all crime amongst the poor and then by race -- then see which group compared individually and to the whole is worse. If poor black people commit more crimes than poor Asian, Hispanic, and/or White people, what does that say? Does it suggest that the police target the black people more often? That could be, but if it is murder we are talking about, the investigation is hardly that of hanging out in a black neighborhood waiting for shoplifters -- There is a body, etc. - no matter the race.

So, if we conclude that in that 13% population of black, more murders exist, how is the prosecution of that racist rather than a factual occurrence? In other words, as I said earlier, do we conclude that society or neglect made them this way – this dependence of drugs and violence, which I suggest are the cause or play a significant part in the vast majority of murders amongst the poor? Or, are these people responsible for their own actions despite the poor upbringings?

I do not know the answer to this other than most if not all people know that if you kill someone, you are likely to be killed by the state no matter where you come from or your race :shrug:

Also, if we had the real numbers, then the percentages on death row when compared to the percentages in society may not be all that different.

Anyway – food for thought :cool:

[strandinthewind]

. . . I didn't really intend to get into this thread. Abortion and death penalty are two topics I don't normally discuss with people. I was just responding that blacks are indeed disproportionately represented on death row compared to their percentage of the overall population. The reasons why is a whole different discussion.

I am enjoying the conversation and find your points thought provoking and challenging.

[irishgrl]

This is an interesting point, but it's validity somewhat depends on the premise I noted earlier. Does the socioeconomic background of these black murderers (and other criminals) somehow excuse the conduct to the point that we can call their subsequent convictions and executions a conscious act of racism?

An interesting distinction could be to compare all crime amongst the poor and then by race -- then see which group compared individually and to the whole is worse. If poor black people commit more crimes than poor Asian, Hispanic, and/or White people, what does that say? Does it suggest that the police target the black people more often? That could be, but if it is murder we are talking about, the investigation is hardly that of hanging out in a black neighborhood waiting for shoplifters -- There is a body, etc. - no matter the race.

So, if we conclude that in that 13% population of black, more murders exist, how is the prosecution of that racist rather than a factual occurrence? In other words, as I said earlier, do we conclude that society or neglect made them this way – this dependence of drugs and violence, which I suggest are the cause or play a significant part in the vast majority of murders amongst the poor? Or, are these people responsible for their own actions despite the poor upbringings?

I do not know the answer to this other than most if not all people know that if you kill someone, you are likely to be killed by the state no matter where you come from or your race :shrug:

Also, if we had the real numbers, then the percentages on death row when compared to the percentages in society may not be all that different.

Anyway – food for thought :cool:
perhaps the answer lies in the fact that the Blacks in particular have come to expect preferential treatment in the face of their prior servitude? I mean, many see welfare as an entitlement, not an 'assist'. this is sad.

in addition: many other races have had to "pay their dues" in this country in the form of enforced servitude, most particularly the Irish and the Chinese. I find it very hard to find sympathy for a group that has been given preferential treatment for several decades over and above what other nationalities have had to deal with.....the idea of "racism" is very much abused IMO.

ps: I had a "poor" upbringing, but I never ever considered a life of crime to be the answer.

[irishgrl]

Karma is based in Hinduism. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Your personal beliefs/philosophies/experiences deserve respect, but they shouldn't influence US death penalty policy. JMO.
FYI: I never said my PERSONAL beliefs should be the end all or the be all of the dynamics of the penal justice system. I was merely stating my opinion of the likelihood of a extraterrestrial means for the events we see playing out on the world stage. Again: Karma is a very real explanation for the inequalities we see around us every day--over and above the usual madness that comprises our everyday life experience.

[irishgrl]

This is an interesting point, but it's validity somewhat depends on the premise I noted earlier. Does the socioeconomic background of these black murderers (and other criminals) somehow excuse the conduct to the point that we can call their subsequent convictions and executions a conscious act of racism?

An interesting distinction could be to compare all crime amongst the poor and then by race -- then see which group compared individually and to the whole is worse. If poor black people commit more crimes than poor Asian, Hispanic, and/or White people, what does that say? Does it suggest that the police target the black people more often? That could be, but if it is murder we are talking about, the investigation is hardly that of hanging out in a black neighborhood waiting for shoplifters -- There is a body, etc. - no matter the race.

So, if we conclude that in that 13% population of black, more murders exist, how is the prosecution of that racist rather than a factual occurrence? In other words, as I said earlier, do we conclude that society or neglect made them this way – this dependence of drugs and violence, which I suggest are the cause or play a significant part in the vast majority of murders amongst the poor? Or, are these people responsible for their own actions despite the poor upbringings?

I do not know the answer to this other than most if not all people know that if you kill someone, you are likely to be killed by the state no matter where you come from or your race :shrug:

Also, if we had the real numbers, then the percentages on death row when compared to the percentages in society may not be all that different.

Anyway – food for thought :cool:
good question. and if the majority of victims are White, who can actually claim harm here???

[gldstwmn]

as for abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

Well you don't have a uterus, so you shouldn't.

[gldstwmn]

The real shame is that he was executed.

Truly. But his last request was a benign gesture. How can people that really believe in the teachings of Jesus be in favor of capital punishment? I will never, ever get it.

[gldstwmn]

It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

That's because the point of the story was the execution of the murderer not the murder itself. That is a different stroy. Try to keep up. :p

[gldstwmn]

Against my better judgement I'm chiming in - but it costs more to keep people on Death Row than it does to keep them in prison for life. Those appeals and what not obviously very costly...so from a taxpayer standpoint alone -wouldn't life with no parole be better than death penalty which costs you, the taxpayer, more?

I'll try to scare up some articles on this little statistic but I know I've read that several times...

Actually I think what you might have been trying to say is that it is more costly to execute an inmate than to keep them in prison for life, no?

[gldstwmn]

Another interesting tidbit: 80% of the time, the victims in Death Row cases are White.

California has the most inmates on death row (660) but Texas and Virginia executed the most death row inmates. A death sentence in CA is not necessarily a death sentence apparently.....

That's because one of the prior governors of CA did away with the death penalty and if I'm not mistaken, those that were give amnesty from it during that period are technically still death row inmates but will never be executed. I'm just remebering off the top of my head so I could be wrong.

[The Tower]

Well you don't have a uterus, so you shouldn't.
I don't think that people REALLY understand how much this is an issue of a woman having to bear the child, etc.

Truly. But his last request was a benign gesture. How can people that really believe in the teachings of Jesus be in favor of capital punishment? I will never, ever get it.
Don't ask me, honey- I am not a follower of Jesus Christ. Although- all of you ****ing judgemenal mother****ers who think that you ARE following Christ better get a ****ing twist on what's going on with your life- lemme tell, ya.

[strandinthewind]

Interesting article and not really what I believe, but the question was asked - so, here, perhaps, is an answer:

While campaigning for the presidency, George W. Bush was interviewed by Bill O’Reilly. O’Reilly pointed out that Bush had named Jesus Christ as his model political philosopher and suggested that this might be a contradiction with Bush’s own support of the death penalty. Bush replied, “I can’t justify the death penalty in terms of the New Testament. I’m going to justify it in terms of the law…” (from No Spin Zone by Bill O’Reilly, p. 102). O’Reilly then stated, “I don’t believe he [Jesus] would be embracing the death penalty if he were here today.” Bush: “We can both agree on this.”

In the same chapter of his book (v.104), O’Reilly states: “As for the death penalty, with all due respect to the president, you don’t have to put words into Jesus’ mouth to infer what he might have thought on the subject. Most theologians believe he considered all life sacred and, thus, would most likely oppose the death penalty. Also, since he was a victim of it, he may have a rooting interest in seeing it abolished.” O’Reilly also mentions that the pope agrees with him on this.

So, in the eyes of both proponents and opponents of the death penalty, the case is closed. Jesus would be against it. After all, most theologians agree.

But, I must protest. Most theologians, as usual, are wrong. Jesus did support the death penalty and He left a hearty biblical record proving the point. Jesus has been so remade by the modern world into a mix of Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Tiny Tim that they cannot see the Jesus clearly portrayed in the Bible. Let us look at the record.

Consider this: the Mosaic Law very strongly supported the death penalty and Jesus never once disobeyed the law or taught against it. He said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matt.5:17). The law made numerous provisions for the death penalty. Jesus did not come to destroy these provisions but to fulfill them. As such, He would have supported the death penalty.



The Woman Taken in Adultery

But, you say, what about the women taken in the very act of adultery. This story is told in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees sought to find something against Jesus. Their method of operation was to ask a question or present a problem in which either solution would hurt Jesus (see several instances in Matthew 23). In this case, they presented the woman taken in adultery and reminded Jesus, “Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?” (v.5). If He upheld the law, the meek and lowly Jesus would be portrayed as cruel. If He made an exception to the law, He would be in favor of breaking the law. In either case, His bond with the people would be broken.

However, Jesus did the unexpected. He stooped down and wrote with His finger on the ground. What He wrote, we are not told. When the Pharisees insisted on an answer, He said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (v.7) and continued writing.

One interesting fact about this story: only the woman was brought. No man was accused. Yet, adultery is definitely a two-person sin. Is it possible that Jesus wrote Leviticus 20:10 on the ground? It says, “And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” Notice, both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. Not one, but both.

At any rate, the consciences of the accusers began to accuse their own hearts. One by one, beginning with the eldest, they slipped away until no man was there to accuse the woman. With no accusers, there was no required penalty. Jesus had used the occasion to point out the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees while at the same time showing His love to the unloved. He told the woman to go and sin no more.



Let Him Die the Death

This is a wonderful illustration of the grace of God, but it is not proof that Jesus opposed the death penalty. In fact, He made a direct statement of His support. Again, in dealing with the scribes and Pharisees, when they accused the disciples for not washing before eating, Jesus said,

“But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:3-4

He then described (v.5-6) how the Pharisees allowed someone to hold back needed help for their parents by saying that it was a gift to God. This was the dedication of their possessions to the temple to be given at the time of their death. Of course, they could do anything they wanted with this gift until they died. But in the eyes of the Pharisees it freed them from their obligation to honor their mother and father by caring for them in their old age.

According the Jesus, the applicable commandment was that he who cursed his mother or father was required to die the death. However, the Pharisees had transgressed this commandment by their man-made traditions. This is not Jesus opposing the death penalty. This is Jesus requiring it.



As I Follow Christ

One more proof can be found in the ministry and message of the Apostle Paul. Paul told those to whom he ministered, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1Corinthians 11:1). Paul was not sinless as His Saviour was. But he was meticulous in his service to God (see Philippians 3:4-6). And, according to his own testimony, he was careful to follow the life of Jesus Christ. Certainly, if Jesus had been opposed to the death penalty, then so would Paul have been.

However, Paul recognized the justice of the death penalty. When he was brought before the judgment seat of Festus, he said, “For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die” (Acts 25:11). By this, Paul admitted that there were offenses worthy of death and that the government had the right to administer death in those cases.

He further states in Romans that the powers that be (government) are ordained by God. They act as ministers of God for good. He further warns, “But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” (Romans 13:4). The powers that be bear the sword to execute wrath on those that do evil. What do you think these powers are going to do with the sword? Are they going to slap someone on the wrist with it? No. They are going to “execute wrath” by executing someone. They are going to administer the death penalty.

God Himself established the death penalty long before the law was given to Moses. He told Noah, “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man” (Gen.9:5). This command has never been repealed. Not by the New Testament. Not by Paul. Not by Jesus Himself.

The Jesus of the Bible supported the death penalty. It was not His purpose for coming. Therefore, He said only a little about it. But He supported it nonetheless. When He returns to the earth the next time, His perspective will be different. Then, He will come as judge and will be executing the death penalty (see Revelation 19:11-15).



The Real Problem

The problem has nothing to do with the clarity of scripture. It has everything to do with the carnal preconceptions of man. Man wants a toothless Jesus. He wants the Jesus who suffers the little children to come but he rejects the Jesus who runs the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. He wants a Jesus who will smile on his fornication and adultery, on his dishonesty and hypocrisy, with a boys-will-be-boys look. He does not want the Jesus who called the Pharisees a bunch of ugly names (see Matthew 23) or the One who talked about hell more than He talked about heaven.

In short, modern man wants, and so envisions, “another Jesus.” The Corinthians are warned against such teachers and preachers. “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him” (2Corinthians 11:4). We should still warn believers of such false prophets today.

Jesus believed in the death penalty. It was established by God, codified by the law, supported by Jesus Himself and sustained by the Apostle Paul. Theologians have no biblical evidence against it. They only have their perception of another Jesus. May we never follow that other Jesus but ever remain faithful to the Jesus of the Holy Bible.

http://www.learnthebible.org/death_penalty.htm

Also - both sides:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/execute.htm

[JazmenFlowers]

Well you don't have a uterus, so you shouldn't.
wow. I didn't realize that was a prerequisite to having an opinion.

but, if what you say is true, at least that will surely minimize the amount of topics on which you can have an opinion and can therefore comment on, right? right. good. :thumbsup:

[GateandGarden]

wow. I didn't realize that was a prerequisite to having an opinion.

but, if what you say is true, at least that will surely minimize the amount of topics on which you can have an opinion and can therefore comment on, right? right. good. :thumbsup:IMO, there's some merit to the viewpoint that in this case, it's not your place to make judgments if the matter doesn't involve/concern you.

[JazmenFlowers]

IMO, there's some merit to the viewpoint that in this case, it's not your place to make judgments if the matter doesn't involve/concern you.
I swear I feel like I'm speaking in ****ing Greek in this place these days. yet again, my initial post is misconstrued. I'm not saying by you, but by the person who began this portion of the debate. and my response is not directly in response to you just my thoughts concerning it all.

I'll just have to say, I agree that I wouldn't ever presume to tell a woman what to do with her body. if a woman were pregnant with my child, however, I feel that does concern/involve me and I do have some right to an opinion. I obviously shouldn't even be posting in this ****ing thread...I wish you all had put a disclaimer that those who can not conceive, men and women alike, shouldn't even comment in this thread...:rolleyes:

also, an opinion is merely that. we all form one on many issues in which we have no involvement. it's funny that I am having this convo considering I never even said what my opinion was.

for historical value, let's revisit my short and sweet post:

I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

um....yeah...

[carrie721]

IMO, there's some merit to the viewpoint that in this case, it's not your place to make judgments if the matter doesn't involve/concern you.

to be fair, there's a difference between having an opinion and making judgments, and jazzy really didn't express either.

[strandinthewind]

to be fair, there's a difference between having an opinion and making judgments . . .

Is there? I think to have an opinion, you have to have formed a judgment of some sort.

I base this on the def. in the big red dic. (emphasis supplied)

Main Entry: opin·ion

Pronunciation: &-'pin-y&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari

1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM

2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view

3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

http://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/opinion

Main Entry: judg·ment

Variant(s): or judge·ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun

1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced

2 a : a formal decision given by a court b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree

3 a capitalized : the final judging of humankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God

4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed

5 a : the capacity for judging : DISCERNMENT b : the exercise of this capacity

6 : a proposition stating something believed or asserted

synonym see SENSE

http://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/judgment

:shrug:

[carrie721]

Is there? I think to have an opinion, you have to have formed a judgment of some sort.

whoops, sorry, i didn't consult my merriam-webster before posting. i'll never do it again.

my point was a) you don't have to pass judgment to have an opinion and b) (my real point) jazzy didn't posit an opinion one way or the other, so this entire argument is ridiculous.

[strandinthewind]

whoops, sorry, i didn't consult my merriam-webster before posting. i'll never do it again . . . .

You are forgiven :wavey:

[carrie721]

You are forgiven :wavey:

thank god :p

[JazmenFlowers]

thank god :p
ooopppsss...now you're forming an opinion regarding religion! :mad:


:lol:

[carrie721]

ooopppsss...now you're forming an opinion regarding religion! :mad:


:lol:

jeez, i am ****ED! :blob1:

[JazmenFlowers]

jeez, i am ****ED! :blob1:
no. that one works. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

whoops, sorry, i didn't consult my merriam-webster before posting. i'll never do it again.

my point was a) you don't have to pass judgment to have an opinion and b) (my real point) jazzy didn't posit an opinion one way or the other, so this entire argument is ridiculous.Good point.

Okay, I really wasn't trying to start something here.

[JazmenFlowers]

Okay, I really wasn't trying to start something here.
I know and that's why I was saying I pretty much agreed with you and that you could basically ignore everything I said after I said that.

[carrie721]

Good point.

Okay, I really wasn't trying to start something here.

whatever, everyone knows you just come back to stir the **** :D

[Rickypt]

I swear I feel like I'm speaking in ****ing Greek in this place these days. yet again, my initial post is misconstrued. I'm not saying by you, but by the person who began this portion of the debate. and my response is not directly in response to you just my thoughts concerning it all.

I'll just have to say, I agree that I wouldn't ever presume to tell a woman what to do with her body. if a woman were pregnant with my child, however, I feel that does concern/involve me and I do have some right to an opinion. I obviously shouldn't even be posting in this ****ing thread...I wish you all had put a disclaimer that those who can not conceive, men and women alike, shouldn't even comment in this thread...:rolleyes:

also, an opinion is merely that. we all form one on many issues in which we have no involvement. it's funny that I am having this convo considering I never even said what my opinion was.

for historical value, let's revisit my short and sweet post:

I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

um....yeah...

You needn't have even responded. This was just about a former mod who has spent the past weekend trying to bully and silence people the same way she did when she was mod. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BTFLCHLD]

You needn't have even responded. hey ryan, how did we go from pizza/death penalty to abortion? :confused:

[carrie721]

hey ryan, how did we go from pizza/death penalty to abortion? :confused:

the crazy thing is we're not even discussing abortion, jazzy was just told he has no right to have an opinion on the subject ... a subject we're not even talking about. :lol:

[Rickypt]

hey ryan, how did we go from pizza/death penalty to abortion? :confused:

You'll have to ask gldstwmm....:xoxo:

In honor of this thread, though, I am going to spend my final day of vacation treating myself to a mini pepperoni pizza at Round Table. :)

[Sugar]

It is crazy, no? Which seems like a fantastic reason to get back to the subject of this thread and away from the personal bickering.

[JazmenFlowers]

It is crazy, no? Which seems like a fantastic reason to get back to the subject of this thread and away from the personal bickering.
it is crazy, but a prime example of someone who starts these personal arguments. as you stated in the AI thread, I'm glad you at least acknowledge when others threadjack and start personal feuds. am I supposed to not respond? I was asked a direct question. no one was fueding until "those we do not speak of" piped in.

[JazmenFlowers]

It is crazy, no? Which seems like a fantastic reason to get back to the subject of this thread and away from the personal bickering.
I agree, btw. why don't you give us a jumpstart to turn this discussion around and provide us with a post we can respond to? how should we proceed with this discussion...or...is it at an end and this thread needs closing?

[Sugar]

I agree, btw. why don't you give us a jumpstart to turn this discussion around and provide us with a post we can respond to? how should we proceed with this discussion...or...is it at an end and this thread needs closing?


OK...I think it was a nice thing for the guy to ask for, but I don't think the state is obligated to fulfill it. Real nice that the community responded, though.

As for the death penalty, I think it's stupid as it stands, mainly because it ends up more expensive to put people to death rather than to keep them for life.

I think the DP needs to only be used in cases where guilt is fairly certain (DNA, or perhaps many eyewitnesses, things like that) and there needs to be some way of administering it more quickly, though I don't know the full legalities (though I'm certain Jason is collecting them even as we speak ;) ) I still think there must be a way. Otherwise it's life in prison.

Of course I think the whole prison system needs to be revamped (more cheaper, more minimum security options, etc.) and that minor drug possession shouldn't be a jailable offense (thereby creating some more room for the guys who really should be incarcerated).

[strandinthewind]

hey ryan, how did we go from pizza/death penalty to abortion? :confused:

They ordered from Dominoes instead of a local pizza joint :cool:

[strandinthewind]

. . . treating myself to a mini pepperoni pizza at Round Table. :)

See!!!!

Thus, no capital punishment or abortions :D

[strandinthewind]

. . . (though I'm certain Jason is collecting them even as we speak ;) ) . . . .

Funny you should mention it . . . :p :p

[irishgrl]

You needn't have even responded. This was just about a former mod who has spent the past weekend trying to bully and silence people the same way she did when she was mod. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wow, that seems pretty harsh :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I don't think that people REALLY understand how much this is an issue of a woman having to bear the child, etc..

99.9% of the time the ultimate responsibility is on the mother. It is rare for a father to step up to the plate in the capacity that women do and when I see it, I applaud it wholeheartdly. I also find that them men have a new found respect for me in women in general and that we can relate on a whole new level. My ex brother in law is raising his son full time and his 7 year old daughter each summer. He calls me just to talk about her sometimes and it's hard for me to explain how interesting this twist in our relationship is. And before any of you get the wrong idea in your dirty little minds, it is sooo not like that. He is still with my ex sister in law. She is currently incarcerated due to her drug problem. And I love her like a sister. Sorry for the babbling.




Don't ask me, honey- I am not a follower of Jesus Christ. Although- all of you ****ing judgemenal mother****ers who think that you ARE following Christ better get a ****ing twist on what's going on with your life- lemme tell, ya.

No dear. My point as an agnostic is that the bible thumpers (generalization I realize) are the first ones to say an eye for an eye but god forbid that you remove a fetus from someone's body because that is MURDER! I know you are of a like mind about this so I'll just stop now other wise we will just go on forever. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

wow. I didn't realize that was a prerequisite to having an opinion.



In this case it is. It's not your body, nor is it your choice to make. Now should you be the "father" of the fetus that would be a different subject but my understanding is that the chances of that happening to you are nil.

[gldstwmn]

You needn't have even responded. This was just about a former mod who has spent the past weekend trying to bully and silence people the same way she did when she was mod. Nothing more, nothing less.

Awww...I'll send flowers and a muffin basket right over.

[gldstwmn]

It is crazy, no? Which seems like a fantastic reason to get back to the subject of this thread and away from the personal bickering.

I beleive I responded to the original topic at hand and quite eloquently at that, expressing my own viewpoint. If anyone is to be accused of threadjacking around here, it certainly is not moi.