Dead horse discussion!

[SteveMacD]

Okay, I know this is a dead horse, but it’s a fun dead horse on a cold day. Even though I have my theory that “Time” was DOA, thanks in large part to Lindsey and Christine, what if Mick and John had decided to continue? Here’s what I would have liked to see happen:


In January, 1996, Christine announces that she has retired from Fleetwood Mac, though leaves open the possibility of doing a reunion show. Mick announces that the band has parted ways with Dave Mason, stating that it just wasn’t working out for either party, and that the remaining four will replace Christine and Dave after a 50 city tour in support the “Time” album. The tour will be small-to-medium sized venues, as they are essentially a new band, that the number of “classic” Mac songs will be limited, and helping the band out on the tour will be Steve Thoma and Michael Thompson, both having played on “Time.”

In The Back Of My Mind
Talkin’ To My Heart
The Chain
Say You Love Me
Oh Well
Winds Of Change
The Bigger The Love
When The Sun Goes Down
Shakin’ The Cage (with vest solo)
Nothing Without You
Hi Ho Silver
I Got It In For You
Go Your Own Way
encore 1
Don’t Stop
encore 2
Dreamin’ The Dream

Mick Fleetwood: Drums
John McVie: Bass
Bekka Bramlett: Vocals
Billy Burnette: Guitars/Vocals
-with-
Steve Thoma: Keyboards/Backing Vocals
Michael Thompson: Guitars

After the tour, the band announces that they have added rock legends Mick Taylor (Bluesbreakers, Rolling Stones) and Al Kooper (got Dylan to go electric and played organ on "Higway 61...", discovered Skynyrd and produced first three albums, founded Blood Sweat And Tears, and played on a billion or so albums) to the line-up, with the hope the two can fuse what Mick and John want with what Bekka and Billy want. The band does a 50 city tour off the bat to build chops. They then record an album, which actually gets great reviews and has respectable sales, and even produces a hit single.

I would have taken THAT over what ACTUALLY happened anyday. I like "The Dance" and SYW, but that's all we've had since 1995, which is not NEARLY enough.

[HomerMcvie]

Buddy, you got alot of free time, dontcha?
I'd take the Time lineup, over the SYW Orchestra, anyday!
If it weren't for the Dance, I wish they'd never gotten back together. Bekka is greatness. FM was finally a working band again.;)

[SteveMacD]

Buddy, you got alot of free time, dontcha?
It's been a slow week.
I'd take the Time lineup, over the SYW Orchestra, anyday!
If it weren't for the Dance, I wish they'd never gotten back together. Bekka is greatness. FM was finally a working band again.;)
Sigh. That's why I wish they would have continued, just without Christine (who basically had already retired) or Dave. Bekka and Billy were on to something. They were becoming a writing team, and their voices sounded great together. The band would have FINALLY had project where they were focused on the project from the first day in the studio to the last night of the tour, which they still haven't done as a collective since "Tusk."

[David]

In January, 1996, Christine announces that she has retired from Fleetwood Mac, though leaves open the possibility of doing a reunion show. Mick announces that the band has parted ways with Dave Mason, stating that it just wasn’t working out for either party, and that the remaining four will replace Christine and Dave after a 50 city tour in support the “Time” album. The tour will be small-to-medium sized venues, as they are essentially a new band, that the number of “classic” Mac songs will be limited, and helping the band out on the tour will be Steve Thoma and Michael Thompson, both having played on “Time.”

In The Back Of My Mind
Talkin’ To My Heart
The Chain
Say You Love Me
Oh Well
Winds Of Change
The Bigger The Love
When The Sun Goes Down
Shakin’ The Cage (with vest solo)
Nothing Without You
Hi Ho Silver
I Got It In For You
Go Your Own Way
encore 1
Don’t Stop
encore 2
Dreamin’ The DreamWhy? Who needs a lot of those songs? Say You Love Me? Go Your Own Way? Don't Stop? The Chain? Oh Well? That in your estimation is limiting classic Mac songs?
After the tour, the band announces that they have added rock legends Mick Taylor (Bluesbreakers, Rolling Stones) and Al Kooper (got Dylan to go electric and played organ on "Higway 61...", discovered Skynyrd and produced first three albums, founded Blood Sweat And Tears, and played on a billion or so albums) to the line-up, with the hope the two can fuse what Mick and John want with what Bekka and Billy want. The band does a 50 city tour off the bat to build chops. They then record an album, which actually gets great reviews and has respectable sales, and even produces a hit single.In what Lotus Land are you now living & smoking? Great reviews? By whom? the pop/rock writers at the metro dailies? perhaps the first-string critic at Stereo Review? the staff at Vibe? You must be kidding.
I would have taken THAT over what ACTUALLY happened anyday. I like "The Dance" and SYW, but that's all we've had since 1995, which is not NEARLY enough.Mick, John, Bekka & Billy could have -- & should have -- just gone out there & played their own material, played stuff like Austin City Limits, & recorded on a small label & just tried to maintain integrity even if no more than 20,000 bought their album. There is PLENTY of work around for bands that sell only 20,000 CDs, believe it or not.

[chiliD]

Mick Fleetwood: Drums
John McVie: Bass
Bekka Bramlett: Vocals
Billy Burnette: Guitars/Vocals
-with-
Steve Thoma: Keyboards/Backing Vocals

I'd prefer Todd Sharp over Michael Thompson on lead guitar...in fact, make him a MEMBER of the band. He writes & sings well, too.

[SteveMacD]

Why? Who needs a lot of those songs? Say You Love Me? Go Your Own Way? Don't Stop? The Chain? Oh Well? That in your estimation is limiting classic Mac songs?
Well, the HAVE to do SOME of the classics. But, it's not like the set was completely loaded down with the classic Mac songs. To put it another way, even though he'd been in the band for four years, and had done five albums with the band, Bob Welch was still doing "Manalishi," "Oh Well," "Rattlesnake," and "Black Magic Woman" during the 1974 tour. Furthermore, look at the sets in the 1975-1976 tour: Get Like You Used To Be, Station Man, Spare Me A Little, Why, Hypnotized, Manalishi, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Sunny Side Of Heaven, and Oh Well. The point being that they have to play some of the old songs for a certain period of time, and given the level of success of "Fleetwood Mac" and "Rumours," it would be understandable to keep a few of those songs in the set. Five at that stage is pretty minimal. It could have easily been littered with the likes of World Turning, Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, You Make Loving Fun, Hold Me, Everywhere, Monday Morning, Blue Letter, Second Hand News, I Don't Want To Know, Angel, and so on...

(And "Oh Well?" EVERYBODY who's ever been in Fleetwood Mac -save for Brunning- has had to do "Oh Well" at some point. It's a right of passage, damnit!)
In what Lotus Land are you now living & smoking? Great reviews? By whom? the pop/rock writers at the metro dailies? perhaps the first-string critic at Stereo Review? the staff at Vibe? You must be kidding.
I think there was a window where country was becoming much more popular that such a paradigm shift for the band would have been welcomed by the press. With the people I would have put in the group, it would have been an album that would have come out much more along the lines of a "Highway 61..." meets "Sticky Fingers." But, in all reality, you're right, reviews would have been littered with "where's Stevie" comments and Delaney & Bonnie comparisons.
Mick, John, Bekka & Billy could have -- & should have -- just gone out there & played their own material, played stuff like Austin City Limits, & recorded on a small label & just tried to maintain integrity even if no more than 20,000 bought their album. There is PLENTY of work around for bands that sell only 20,000 CDs, believe it or not.
I would have been there. And, those 20,000 would be the REAL fans. I guess it's that whole McGuinn philosophy that I've come to respect. Why sell a butt load of tickets to people who find you trendy when you could play small gigs for people who are the true fans? (The answer, for this band, of course, is MONEY!)

[SteveMacD]

I'd prefer Todd Sharp over Michael Thompson on lead guitar...in fact, make him a MEMBER of the band. He writes & sings well, too.
I had thought about that. There are only two problems, though. First, he was also a part of the Zoo, so that would make FOUR people from that band. (BTW, that's also why I had Steve Thoma instead of Brett Tuggle. Mick/John/Bekka/Billy/Todd/Brett is just too close to the Zoo. All they would have to do is replace John with George Hawkins, and it IS the Zoo.)

The second thing with that is that, while I have tons of respect for Todd as a singer, songwriter, and guitarist, I think that Billy and Bekka were on to something that would have made adding a third singer/songwriter to the mix a bit awkward. I think that keeping it to just Billy and Bekka fronting the group would have been best.

Actually, the reason for Mick Taylor is that he was the lead guitarist for the Rolling Stones during their country era. I figured that if anybody could pull Bekka and Billy's "down-home country tendancies" together with Mick and John's rock/blues/pop tendancies, it would be Mick Taylor. And, I picked Al Kooper because he's a great multi-instrumentalist and producer. The band needs somebody like that on the inside.

[David]

Well, the HAVE to do SOME of the classics.No, they don't. They don't have to do anything unless they sign a contract promising to do something. They can go out there & play nothing but Beethoven's late piano sonatas if they want to & the guys footing the bill don't forbid it.
But, it's not like the set was completely loaded down with the classic Mac songs.FIVE SONGS out of FIFTEEN?!?! What, are you nuts? One third of the set is old FM radio warhorses, & you don't call that LOADING DOWN?! Steve, you need to eat more omega-3 or something, because there's obviously been some serious damage.
To put it another way, even though he'd been in the band for four years, and had done five albums with the band, Bob Welch was still doing "Manalishi," "Oh Well," "Rattlesnake," and "Black Magic Woman" during the 1974 tour.You'd have to ask Bob Welch why. Maybe he wanted to play that stuff. Maybe Mick forced him to play that stuff. Maybe he didn't care what the hell he was playing onstage. But what does any of that have to do with what the Time band SHOULD -- S-H-O-U-L-D -- have done?
Furthermore, look at the sets in the 1975-1976 tour: Get Like You Used To Be, Station Man, Spare Me A Little, Why, Hypnotized, Manalishi, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Sunny Side Of Heaven, and Oh Well.What does any of that have to do with what the Time band SHOULD have done?
The point being that they have to play some of the old songs for a certain period of time,I think I pretty much demolished that "point" just by indicating that they don't HAVE to do anything unless they agree to in a contract. You don't have to coddle an audience & lead it along slowly like a newborn taking its first steps. You can respect an audience instead -- assuming that the audience has a perfectly legitimate right to enjoy or NOT enjoy your new material, but it has to hear it first.
and given the level of success of "Fleetwood Mac" and "Rumours," it would be understandable to keep a few of those songs in the set.You have this amazing penchant for being able to lay down accurate premises & then consistently draw the wrong conclusions! Given the success of FM & Rumours, the new TIME band would have been wise NOT to play those songs. What makes you think that people in large numbers out there want to hear "Say You Love Me" if the original track's writer, arranger, vocalist & all three harmony singers are absent in the band that still calls itself by the same name? That was precisely the problem with the whole thing: band calling itself Fleetwood Mac & therefore fallaciously assuming that it was "obligated" to play songs from the distant past that none of its current members had any direct connection with. You don't imagine, do you, that audiences LIKE that??
Five at that stage is pretty minimal.Five out of fifteen -- ONE-THIRD -- is in no way shape or form "minimal," Mr. Sophistry.
It could have easily been littered with the likes of World Turning, Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, You Make Loving Fun, Hold Me, Everywhere, Monday Morning, Blue Letter, Second Hand News, I Don't Want To Know, Angel, and so on...There is NO DIFFERENCE in principle between playing SYLM, GYOW, Don't Stop, The Chain & Dreams & playing those five plus five others from that period.
I think there was a window where country was becoming much more popular that such a paradigm shift for the band would have been welcomed by the press.The press in general wouldn't have cared one way or the other. These names -- like Mick Taylor & Al Kooper -- mean little or nothing to the guys reviewing rock albums, most of whom are in their 20s & 30s & think U2 are tired old geezers. Wake up & smell the coffee, Steve.
With the people I would have put in the group, it would have been an album that would have come out much more along the lines of a "Highway 61..." meets "Sticky Fingers."NOT IF THE BAND IS PLAYING 'SAY YOU LOVE ME' IN CONCERT!! D'UH!!!
But, in all reality, you're right, reviews would have been littered with "where's Stevie" comments and Delaney & Bonnie comparisons.No, actually...BECAUSE THE TWENTYSOMETHINGS REVIEWING ROCK ALBUMS FOR NEWSPAPERS DON'T KNOW WHO THE HELL DELANEY & BONNIE ARE!! D'UH.
I would have been there. And, those 20,000 would be the REAL fans. I was there -- twice. Once in 1994 & once in 1995. And the guys weren't bad. Dave Mason was a washout -- he obviously had no interest in playing old Mac pop songs. And the REAL FANS wouldn't have needed or wanted to hear old Mac pop songs. They would have wanted to hear Billy's new material, Bekka's new material ... in short, the band's NEW material, forged from entirely different fires, with different personnel, different sound & style, different identity, different relationship with the public, etc.

[David]

I think that Billy and Bekka were on to something that would have made adding a third singer/songwriter to the mix a bit awkward. I think that keeping it to just Billy and Bekka fronting the group would have been best.Holy cannoli. I actually agree with you.

Two (relatively) young front liners, attractive, good singers, good harmonizers, involved with each other -- it would have been interesting. Sort of Buckingham/Nicks meets Dwight Yoakam. No need to clutter up the stage with other front liners. Time band should have let Billy & Bekka try to carry it.

[SteveMacD]

FIVE SONGS out of FIFTEEN?!?! What, are you nuts? One third of the set is old FM radio warhorses, & you don't call that LOADING DOWN?! Steve, you need to eat more omega-3 or something, because there's obviously been some serious damage.
Dave, man, you are not looking at the big picture. Yes, there are five classic Mac songs (well, actually six, though one was also done by Billy as a solo artist AND was done by Billy's dad and uncle, so it's a matter of perspective). But, the set-list I posted was ONLY for the "Time" tour. Another five of the fifteen songs are "Talkin’ To My Heart," "Winds Of Change," "Nothing Without You," "I Got It In For You," and "Dreamin’ The Dream." In other words, they would have done ALL FIVE songs where Billy and/or Bekka sing lead vocals on the album. And, there's one that was recorded for the album, but not released. It would be very hard to fill an entire set with just five songs, even for an opening act. I guess they could also dive into "I Do" and "All Over Again," but how would that be different than diving into "Say You Love Me" or "You Make Loving Fun?"
You'd have to ask Bob Welch why. Maybe he wanted to play that stuff.
I think this is it. Bob and Bekka did "Oh Well" during his last gig in Nashville not too long ago, and he recorded it on his most recent solo album. In fact, I think Bob frequently played "Manalishi," "Oh Well," and "Shake Your Moneymaker" during his solo gigs. Similarly, maybe Bekka and Billy wanted to play SOME of the classics. Billy has always said that he was a huge fan of the band long before he ever met Mick Fleetwood. I mean, if I joined Fleetwood Mac, I'd certaily want to play "Oh Well" and "Go Your Own Way." Billy played a lot of songs he didn't write for a lot of years in Fleetwood Mac. He did leave the group in 1993, but came back within a year, so obviously he didn't feel a slave to the old music.
What does any of that have to do with what the Time band SHOULD have done?
I would think that enjoying what you're doing while also creating a distinct path is what every artist should do. It would be foolish to expect the group to drop all references to its past considering how huge that past was, especially when the two main vocalists have a combined total of ten songs (two being Billy's duets with Chrisitne from BTM). The set list I came up with for just the "Time" tour has seven of ten, which is adventerous by Fleetwood Mac's standards.
You can respect an audience instead -- assuming that the audience has a perfectly legitimate right to enjoy or NOT enjoy your new material, but it has to hear it first.
Your faith in humanity is sweet, really, it is. But, I'd be willing to bet that audiences would want their money back if they didn't get GYOW. And really, isn't that the song they've been blowing their load on for the last 28 years?
What makes you think that people in large numbers out there want to hear "Say You Love Me" if the original track's writer, arranger, vocalist & all three harmony singers are absent in the band that still calls itself by the same name?
Because people do it all the time. There are always a percentage of people who go to a show to hear the songs they remember. I think there was a thread on one of the boards posted just this week stating at one time, there were like six groups touring as the Shirelles, that there was a group of 20-somethings touring as the Zombies, and that there's only one original Temptation. (And so on, and so on...). Plus, it's not like they had a wealth of material at that point. Billy certainly did, but I don't think a lot of those songs would work in this particular situation, and I don't think a situation where one singer has like 80% of the set, and it's not the one who just sings, would be a good idea. I guess they could do Delaney & Bonnie covers, but isn't that similar to doing Chrisine McVie songs?
That was precisely the problem with the whole thing: band calling itself Fleetwood Mac & therefore fallaciously assuming that it was "obligated" to play songs from the distant past that none of its current members had any direct connection with. You don't imagine, do you, that audiences LIKE that??
I think they do. Fleetwood Mac audiences have for years. I read a comment from like 1974, when they were doing four Green songs in the set, that somebody said that he wished that they would do "Albatross." I think a band like Fleetwood Mac, that has gone through changes with its singers/songwriters, IS obligated to play the old songs until the new singers/songwriters have established themselves in the band, which is a process that takes some time. But, it's a scale thing. I think it made sense in 1994 and 1995 to do a set made up mostly of old songs. They didn't have an album out, so it's not like people were going to say "I liked that new song, I'm going to get the album." It's just in an eleven song set, a band with new personnel should do more than one new song. Now, to their credit, they did play "Blow By Blow" when I saw them in 1994, which was commercially available at the time (and which can be downloaded off of my recently updated website...shameless, eh?).
Five out of fifteen -- ONE-THIRD -- is in no way shape or form "minimal," Mr. Sophistry.
Okay, but 100% of songs off the new album that feature those singer/songwriters is good. And an outtake. And a Zoo song. And a couple of songs from BTM. Sir, I contend that the set list I presented for the "Time" tour is about as adventerous as Fleetwood Mac would ever get.
There is NO DIFFERENCE in principle between playing SYLM, GYOW, Don't Stop, The Chain & Dreams & playing those five plus five others from that period.
Just as there's no difference in principle been the "Time" band playing those songs and Bob playing "Manalishi" or Stevie and Lindsey playing "Station Man," and I know my views of Bob, Stevie, and Lindsey are greatly enhanced by those covers.
The press in general wouldn't have cared one way or the other. These names -- like Mick Taylor & Al Kooper -- mean little or nothing to the guys reviewing rock albums, most of whom are in their 20s & 30s & think U2 are tired old geezers. Wake up & smell the coffee, Steve.
I don't care what the guys reviewing think about those guys in terms of what they did in the past. I think the reviewers would (or should...I know that it would still be mostly bitching about Stevie) be impressed by how cohesive the project was, and how it reached a level of quality not seen by a band calling itself Fleetwood Mac in years. It's sort of the opposite of the Dave Mason thing, where they were hoping to capitalize on his name. With the guys I suggested, it would be more capitalizing on their talents, which is what every band SHOULD do.
No, actually...BECAUSE THE TWENTYSOMETHINGS REVIEWING ROCK ALBUMS FOR NEWSPAPERS DON'T KNOW WHO THE HELL DELANEY & BONNIE ARE!! D'UH.
While I think that's obvious, I actually DID read a review of "Time" where the review said it sounded less like Fleetwood Mac as it did Delaney & Bonnie, which I personally don't hear. That's the only reason I mentioned it. I mean, when has not being familiar with something stopped people from expressing an opinion on it? Ironically, it happens all the time with the "Time" album.

[SteveMacD]

Holy cannoli. I actually agree with you.

Two (relatively) young front liners, attractive, good singers, good harmonizers, involved with each other -- it would have been interesting. Sort of Buckingham/Nicks meets Dwight Yoakam. No need to clutter up the stage with other front liners. Time band should have let Billy & Bekka try to carry it.
And, unlike Buckingham/Nicks, Bekka and Billy were not only singing as a team, they were also writing as a team. Many, if not most, of their songs were duets, and on the "Bekka & Billy" album, were co-written by Bekka and Billy.

Save for "Frozen Love" and "Twisted," Stevie and Lindsey were independent singers and writers. There was a definite lead vocalist, and the other would usually harmonize on the chorus and maybe a few lines during a verse. So adding a third to THAT mix, especially when she's an independent writer, and her songs have a definite lead vocalist, with others harmonizing, was especially easy.

[chiliD]

In fact, I think Bob frequently played "Manalishi," "Oh Well," and "Shake Your Moneymaker" during his solo gigs.

Ummmm..."Shake Your Moneymaker", yeah, that was normally his final encore tune from French Kiss through The Other One tours...the other two :shrug: , from personal experience I'd have to say "No". I've seen Bob post-Mac at least 12 times from Paris to 1981, never played any Peter Green songs in his set at any time (while I was in the audience, anyway). If you could find either a set list or a recording of a Welch solo show where he DID "Green Manalishi" or "Oh Well", it would be much appreciated and extremely intriguing. :nod:

[HomerMcvie]

Why not just ask Bob?




Okay, this sounds like a drinking game!:laugh: Who's up for it?:thumbsup: .

[chiliD]

Why not just ask Bob?

I did :nod: ...no response as of yet. :shrug:

[David]

Why not just ask Bob?He might not remember accurately or precisely. Fans who closely follow the careers of these dudes often know more about this sort of stuff than the performers themselves. Remember, it's fans who are listening to recordings of all those old concerts, not the performers who are doing so (in most cases).

[DavidMn]

He might not remember accurately or precisely. Fans who closely follow the careers of these dudes often know more about this sort of stuff than the performers themselves. Remember, it's fans who are listening to recordings of all those old concerts, not the performers who are doing so (in most cases).Very true. I remember when i met Lindsey, I tried to avoid taking too much about that sort of thing. Didnt want to annoy him.

[SteveMacD]

Ummmm..."Shake Your Moneymaker", yeah, that was normally his final encore tune from French Kiss through The Other One tours...the other two :shrug: , from personal experience I'd have to say "No". I've seen Bob post-Mac at least 12 times from Paris to 1981, never played any Peter Green songs in his set at any time (while I was in the audience, anyway). If you could find either a set list or a recording of a Welch solo show where he DID "Green Manalishi" or "Oh Well", it would be much appreciated and extremely intriguing. :nod:
It was actually something I read somewhere YEARS ago (like over a decade ago). However, I obviously don't know from personal experience.

[David]

Say, what happened to our dead horse discussion?

It seems to have ... died.

[chiliD]

Say, what happened to our dead horse discussion?

It seems to have ... died.

The glue factory truck must've arrived. :lol:

[SteveMacD]

Say, what happened to our dead horse discussion?
It was dark, I was drunk, and it was delicious!