Henley songs about Stevie...

[equeen102289]

I've read all the speculations about Life in the Fast Lane being about the whole love triangle between Don, Lindsey and Stevie. I've also read that some people believe Victim of Love is about Stevie. Does anyone know for sure what songs, if any, are about Stevie?? Are their any quotes from Don Henley himself??
I'm most curious about Wasted Time and The Last Worthless Evening. Anyone know when he wrote TLWE? I know it's on The End of the Innocence and that came out in '89, but maybe he wrote it in the 70's? Both songs just sound like they could be about her, IMO. What do you guys think?
And yes I know..their are quite a few people here who don't like Don Henley- and if you are one of those people, don't just post on this thread to say...I hate Don Henley and I have no idea. That's not what this thread is about.

[jadegypsy]

Hey, I don't think either of those are about Stevie, I remember reading in one of the Eagles books that both were about different girlfriends of his, neither of which liked the songs very much...

[HenleyFan]

None of Don's songs are specifically about Stevie...especially LWE.

I've read all the speculations about Life in the Fast Lane being about the whole love triangle between Don, Lindsey and Stevie. I've also read that some people believe Victim of Love is about Stevie. Does anyone know for sure what songs, if any, are about Stevie?? Are their any quotes from Don Henley himself??
I'm most curious about Wasted Time and The Last Worthless Evening. Anyone know when he wrote TLWE? I know it's on The End of the Innocence and that came out in '89, but maybe he wrote it in the 70's? Both songs just sound like they could be about her, IMO. What do you guys think?
And yes I know..their are quite a few people here who don't like Don Henley- and if you are one of those people, don't just post on this thread to say...I hate Don Henley and I have no idea. That's not what this thread is about.

[pattymarkle]

I had always thought that "Life in the Fast Lane" was about Stevie and Lindsey. And that thought of mine goes way back to like 1977.

I might should sneak over to Don's board to post this, but...

For my birthday a couple of days ago I told my kids I wanted the new Eagles DVD and I am really enjoying it. I have a new appreciation for those guys. I think I've watched Joe Walsh's "Life's Been Good" about 30 times, just to hear this line...

I make hit records
my fans they can't wait
they write me letters
tell me Glen's great :lol:

It is also fun to sit and watch and imagine Stevie with Don, Stevie with Joe, and for extra points, Stevie with J.D. Souther. :xoxo:

Patty

[sparky]

It is also fun to sit and watch and imagine Stevie with Don, Stevie with Joe, and for extra points, Stevie with J.D. Souther. :xoxo:

Patty
OMG. She certainly DID the Eagles, didn't she ? Can you imagine the conversations these guys have had over a truckload of liquor and coke ? To be a fly on the wall.
Especially Don. That man has been, and from all reports still is, a world class womanizer.Sheesh.

[pattymarkle]

OMG. She certainly DID the Eagles, didn't she ? Can you imagine the conversations these guys have had over a truckload of liquor and coke ? To be a fly on the wall.
Especially Don. That man has been, and from all reports still is, a world class womanizer.Sheesh.

That may well be, but Stevie is a world class mananizer. :) That is one of the things I love about her. Because I do sit and think, as clearly I have no social life, how all of these guys would be as a lover.

Back in 2001, the Nicks Fix had that Survivor Contest and I was on the team that formed an alliance and we won. That was the one question we wanted to ask her and we didn't have the courage to do it.

"Of all the men you have loved, who was the best lover?" or "Can you just give us one word to describe each of these guys in bed?"

I'm so bad. ;)

Patty

[pattymarkle]

Mental note to self:

If I am going to continue to say stuff like this, I need to have an alias. :eek:

Patty

[sparky]

That may well be, but Stevie is a world class mananizer. :) That is one of the things I love about her. Because I do sit and think, as clearly I have no social life, how all of these guys would be as a lover.

Back in 2001, the Nicks Fix had that Survivor Contest and I was on the team that formed an alliance and we won. That was the one question we wanted to ask her and we didn't have the courage to do it.

"Of all the men you have loved, who was the best lover?" or "Can you just give us one word to describe each of these guys in bed?"

I'm so bad. ;)

Patty

That is QUITE bad. I don't think many of them are very attractive, so I never much wondered.

I am with you. Good for her that she wasn't shy. Far be it from me to diss anyone for having had a lot of sex. I only call Don a "womanizer" because I have heard from so many people that he isn't particularly kind to the women he hooks up with. The ones who aren't famous anyway.

[LilyRose]

That is QUITE bad. I don't think many of them are very attractive, so I never much wondered.

That's what makes me curious. They weren't too cute, so they had to have something :rolleyes: :nod: :shrug:


Susie

[EnchantedSLN]

I could swear I read an article/interview that tied Those Shoes to Stevie. I have never been able to track down that same article, however.

On a slightly different note, I've always thought that "Dear John" by Joe Walsh was for/about Stevie. That's pure speculation, though... based on little more than my interpretation of the lyrics and the timing of the album (and the little "Thank you Stevie" in the liner notes.)

[dissention]

That may well be, but Stevie is a world class mananizer. :) That is one of the things I love about her. Because I do sit and think, as clearly I have no social life, how all of these guys would be as a lover.

Back in 2001, the Nicks Fix had that Survivor Contest and I was on the team that formed an alliance and we won. That was the one question we wanted to ask her and we didn't have the courage to do it.

"Of all the men you have loved, who was the best lover?" or "Can you just give us one word to describe each of these guys in bed?"

I'm so bad. ;)

Patty

You devil! I would have asked, though. I doubt Kinney would forward such a question, though he's probably as curious as the rest of us.

[catinthedark]

None of Don's songs are specifically about Stevie...especially LWE.

You sound so positive, and like, there's no question. Even Life in the Fast Lane?? Why are you so sure?

[HenleyFan]

I said "specifically" about Stevie. Life in the Fastlane may be about that time in Don's (and Glenn's) life, but Don has not written a song totally about Stevie. Not all songs have to be about one person...or even a famous person at that. Maybe the Eagles write songs differently than FM, but the songs start with a thought or a spark and then spiral from there. They're aren't meant to be taken literally.

I'm interested in the person who said that Don was still a womanizer. He's been married for 10 years...where is that coming from?

L&M

You sound so positive, and like, there's no question. Even Life in the Fast Lane?? Why are you so sure?

[darklinensuit]

OMG. She certainly DID the Eagles, didn't she ?

According to that Cynthia McFadden interview the Fri. before 9/11 Stevie "did" four of them.

- Jake

[catinthedark]

I said "specifically" about Stevie. Life in the Fastlane may be about that time in Don's (and Glenn's) life, but Don has not written a song totally about Stevie. Not all songs have to be about one person...or even a famous person at that. Maybe the Eagles write songs differently than FM, but the songs start with a thought or a spark and then spiral from there. They're aren't meant to be taken literally.

Okay... I'm seriously not trying to be argumentative. I'm just wondering why you believe this? You answer like you've got "inside info" about what each of Don's songs has been written about. How do you know that none of his songs is about Stevie? She herself said at some point during the Two Voices tour that it was such a trip to sing Hotel California with him because they were singing about their lives - that they lived Hotel California together. And Life in the Fast Lane I maintain has got to be about Stevie and Lindsey...

Tone: purely curious. Not a single snark in it.

[littlecricket2]

And Life in the Fast Lane I maintain has got to be about Stevie and Lindsey...



Cat, do you really believe that Stevie and Lindsey were the only attractive, intense couple Don Henley knew who lived life "in the fast lane" in the 70's, when everyone was doing drugs and making and/or listening to rock and roll?

[catinthedark]

Cat, do you really believe that Stevie and Lindsey were the only attractive, intense couple Don Henley knew who lived life "in the fast lane" in the 70's, when everyone was doing drugs and making and/or listening to rock and roll?

Uh... no. But there are a whole lot of other lyrics in it that make for the argument that it's about them. And I'm certainly far from the first person who has ever suggested it.

-----------------------------------------------------
He was a hard-headed man he was brutally handsome
And she was terminally pretty

They knew all the right people
They took all the right pills
They threw outrageous parties
They paid heavenly bills
There were lines on the mirror, lines on her face
She pretended not to notice she was caught up in the race
Out every evening until it was light
He was too tired to make it she was too tired to fight about it
------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said... just asking why some people are so sure it's not about them. As a matter of fact, it's the first time I've ever heard anyone say LITFL isn't about them... But I don't purport to be a die hard Eagles fan. That's why I'm askin'! :)

[HenleyFan]

First of all, you misunderstood what Stevie meant about Hotel California. She didn't mean that the song was about her...but they lived the life. Hotel California is about life in the 70s. Stevie lived during the heady days of the 70s. That doesn't mean the song was written for her.

I'm not trying to be snarky either. Maybe this is the way that Stevie writes songs, but I've noticed that here everyone believes that every song Stevie wrote is about someone famous...someone specific. Why do the people in Life in the Fastlane have to be real? If you've listened to anything Don and Glenn (who also wrote the song and who didn't have a thing with Stevie) have said, the song is partially autobiographical and was partially written to work into the theme of the album. Sometimes they make people up to fit the frame of the song. Why would Don and Glenn decide to write a song about Stevie and Lindsey? That's not giving them a lot of credit as songwriters. Glenn even says that they wanted to write a song about rich people who were miserable...not about Stevie and Lindsey.

The Eagles are very forthcoming about what their songs are about. There's no mystery and they aren't all about the members of Fleetwood Mac. :)

The Uh... no. But there are a whole lot of other lyrics in it that make for the argument that it's about them. And I'm certainly far from the first person who has ever suggested it.

-----------------------------------------------------
He was a hard-headed man he was brutally handsome
And she was terminally pretty

They knew all the right people
They took all the right pills
They threw outrageous parties
They paid heavenly bills
There were lines on the mirror, lines on her face
She pretended not to notice she was caught up in the race
Out every evening until it was light
He was too tired to make it she was too tired to fight about it
------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said... just asking why some people are so sure it's not about them. As a matter of fact, it's the first time I've ever heard anyone say LITFL isn't about them... But I don't purport to be a die hard Eagles fan. That's why I'm askin'! :)

[catinthedark]

The Eagles are very forthcoming about what their songs are about. There's no mystery and they aren't all about the members of Fleetwood Mac. :)


Groovy. Thanks. Never thought they were.

[EnchantedSLN]

The Eagles are very forthcoming about what their songs are about. There's no mystery and they aren't all about the members of Fleetwood Mac. :)

I've never heard of LITFL being about Stevie and Lindsey until I read it on this board, and I personally don't think there's much in the song to lend that theory credence as opposed to the song being about any other couple the writers knew in the '70s, or about a completely imaginary couple. But considering Don & Stevie had a relationship (short-lived as it may have been), and people often write about what they know (i.e. people and relationships in their lives), it's not completely unreasonable to wonder if she might have inspired or come up as a character in one of his songs at some point :shrug:. That's not to say every song is about her, or that any given song is literally or exclusively about her.

[sparky]

I'm not trying to be snarky either. Maybe this is the way that Stevie writes songs, but I've noticed that here everyone believes that every song Stevie wrote is about someone famous...someone specific.

You got THAT right !

But, Stevie hoots and hollers all the time about writing about people she knows, so it fuels the speculation over who the subjects might be.
That is assuming you're a person who thinks she has ever written a song about anyone other than Lindsey... :lol:

[David]

Uh... no. But there are a whole lot of other lyrics in it that make for the argument that it's about them.I don't see how those lyrics you posted apply any more specifically to Stevie & Lindsey than they do to hundreds of other power couples doing cocaine & partying in the 1970s. Actually, I think they apply less: Lindsey is on record as having not enjoyed the party scene & mostly having not participated in it, & even Stevie always used to say that she generally preferred not hanging around with the Hollywood crowd at the fancy nightclubs. Certainly she did her fair share of partying, but I think in general she did less than people seem to imagine -- at least in the 1970s. I think she partied more in the 1980s.
And I'm certainly far from the first person who has ever suggested it.Right. But I had never heard it mentioned before the whole Internet thing started, & once something is posted on the Net, it spreads like wildfire & people encounter it & often assume it's a decades'-old opinion or explanation.
As a matter of fact, it's the first time I've ever heard anyone say LITFL isn't about them.Are you exaggerating? do you only talk to Stevie fans?

Bottom line is probably that we all carry around these wonderful fictions in our minds about who wrote about what, & we taylor those fictions to suit our desires. We create Grand Narratives -- we all do. I think there's a little bit of Stevie Nicks in Elvis Costello's "The Loved Ones." So much of it is an interpretive gesture, even if it comes out of Stevie's mouth or Don's mouth or Christine's mouth.

I first saw the "Little Lies" video the night MTV announced Lindsey had left the band, & I was hit powerfully by the idea that it was about his growing distance & eventual departure. When Chris was asked about that at the time, she said it wasn't written with that in mind but that the whole developing situation with Lindsey could apply (whatever that meant).

[David]

I'm not trying to be snarky either. Maybe this is the way that Stevie writes songs, but I've noticed that here everyone believes that every song Stevie wrote is about someone famous...someone specific.I think that's a situation that Stevie herself has cultivated over the decades. She has always said, "I don't make up songs" & "All my songs are real," which is Stevie's way of saying that she doesn't typically concoct characters or even situations in song form (the way that Christine, for example, says she does). According to Stevie, there is usually a very specific correlation between a character or a situation in a song of hers & an actual person or people & related situation in her life or in the life of someone she knows (usually pretty closely). The puzzle is in identifying the correlation itself rather than the nature of the correlation.

[glitter_fades]

I first saw the "Little Lies" video the night MTV announced Lindsey had left the band, & I was hit powerfully by the idea that it was about his growing distance & eventual departure. When Chris was asked about that at the time, she said it wasn't written with that in mind but that the whole developing situation with Lindsey could apply (whatever that meant).

Yeah, whatever that meant. :shrug: :] :laugh: :lol:

:wavey:

[glitter_fades]

I think that's a situation that Stevie herself has cultivated over the decades. She has always said, "I don't make up songs" & "All my songs are real," which is Stevie's way of saying that she doesn't typically concoct characters or even situations in song form (the way that Christine, for example, says she does). According to Stevie, there is usually a very specific correlation between a character or a situation in a song of hers & an actual person or people & related situation in her life or in the life of someone she knows (usually pretty closely). The puzzle is in identifying the correlation itself rather than the nature of the correlation.

Unless she's telling little lies along the way. :lol:

:wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

I think Stevie does write about specific people, but I'm one who feels that the vast majority of her songs are not about ONE specific person, but rather about relationship patterns and men with similar qualities, temperments, etc.

I tend to think she writes about an amalgamation of men. In that way, I guess one could say that she does write about a "character." But she still writes what she knows, so that "everyman" character has his basis in fact.

Funny thing is, while most people are trying to relate these songs to Lindsey or Don or Mick or whomever, I usually relate them to the men in my life.
I don't know what that says about me, but it's probably not flattering! :o :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Funny thing is, while most people are trying to relate these songs to Lindsey or Don or Mick or whomever, I usually relate them to the men in my life.
I don't know what that says about me, but it's probably not flattering! :o :laugh:


I do, too. :o

TISL is totally about this one f**ktard who ruined my outlook on love. I got over it. :laugh:

[pattymarkle]

I think that's a situation that Stevie herself has cultivated over the decades. She has always said, "I don't make up songs" & "All my songs are real," which is Stevie's way of saying that she doesn't typically concoct characters or even situations in song form (the way that Christine, for example, says she does). According to Stevie, there is usually a very specific correlation between a character or a situation in a song of hers & an actual person or people & related situation in her life or in the life of someone she knows (usually pretty closely). The puzzle is in identifying the correlation itself rather than the nature of the correlation.

THANK YOU FOR THAT DAVID! It is Stevie who has cultivated this way of thinking over the decades and it is true, all her songs are real and some elements of one story are told this way in one song and this way in another song. That is why we pour over the lyrics and try to put the pieces together and we try to understand what she says because we read between her lines. She taught us to do that.

The perfect example of this is "Sara". A little bit of this story, a little bit of that story and a whole lot of truth burried deep inside. Do you see where some of us are coming from Henley Fan? I know you know the truth in the song "Sara" and have published confirmation of it from Mr. Henley himself.

Patty

[HenleyFan]

I understand what you are saying. My point, though, was that the Eagles songwriting process is the opposite of this and if people are pouring over lyrics trying to specifically find Stevie, they aren't going to find her. Like the people who still say that Witchy Woman is about her.... :shrug:

While Stevie's songs may be full of real characters, the Eagles songs really aren't.

L&M

THANK YOU FOR THAT DAVID! It is Stevie who has cultivated this way of thinking over the decades and it is true, all her songs are real and some elements of one story are told this way in one song and this way in another song. That is why we pour over the lyrics and try to put the pieces together and we try to understand what she says because we read between her lines. She taught us to do that.

The perfect example of this is "Sara". A little bit of this story, a little bit of that story and a whole lot of truth burried deep inside. Do you see where some of us are coming from Henley Fan? I know you know the truth in the song "Sara" and have published confirmation of it from Mr. Henley himself.

Patty

[witchy_woman13]

look at my name , there was a rumor go'in round .............and i do believe that song was written about her :nod: :nod: she said of don henley "he taught me how to shop"

[HenleyFan]

The song was written before Don met Stevie so please explain to me how it's about her.

Also, Don told a long story in concert last summer (at every damn show!) about the inspiration for Witchy Woman. Guess what.....no mention of Stevie. :)

L&M

look at my name , there was a rumor go'in round .............and i do believe that song was written about her :nod: :nod: she said of don henley "he taught me how to shop"

[ontheEdgeof17]

The song was written before Don met Stevie so please explain to me how it's about her.

Also, Don told a long story in concert last summer (at every damn show!) about the inspiration for Witchy Woman. Guess what.....no mention of Stevie. :)

L&M


Agreed. I believe WW was written around '73. There's no way the song is about Stevie...unless Don was a big Fritz fan. :lol:

[pattymarkle]

I understand what you are saying. My point, though, was that the Eagles songwriting process is the opposite of this and if people are pouring over lyrics trying to specifically find Stevie, they aren't going to find her. Like the people who still say that Witchy Woman is about her.... :shrug:

While Stevie's songs may be full of real characters, the Eagles songs really aren't.

L&M

Okay, fair enough. I know you know your Eagles like we know our Stevie and maybe we do tend to look for signs of her when she has given signs of him and others. I had a real hard time coming to grips with her song, "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You". I took that song so personally as a pure love letter to her fans.

She said on Storytellers it was about Joe Walsh and his precious daughter Emma, who had been killed on her way to nursery school one morning. I still believed it was a song to the fans. Then I buy a copy of her tourbook for that year from ebay (I guess they had printing delays with programs a few years ago too :( ) and it says...

"I wrote a song for the both of them. My life changed on that day. I told the public it was theirs and mine, but it never was, it was my Joe's song, and I would never, ever be the same."

So now I am even more confused. :shrug: I knew Witchy Woman wasn't about her though. :)

I'm glad to have a better understanding of how the Eagles write their songs and hopefully you can see why we tend to read a great deal into what Stevie writes, because most of the time, there is a personal story to be told.

Patty

[Tango]

The song was written before Don met Stevie so please explain to me how it's about her.

Also, Don told a long story in concert last summer (at every damn show!) about the inspiration for Witchy Woman. Guess what.....no mention of Stevie. :)

L&M

Hey L&M, it's always good to read you. I don't know if you are familiar with The Penguin much, but there is a section of "Q&A"s with people in or associated with Fleetwood Mac in one context or another, including one by John McVie, the MAC of Fleetwood Mac!

One of the reasons the story of Life In The Fast Lane became accepted was because of one of those Q&A's, one by Gary Hodges. Maybe you'd like to read thorough it yourself:
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/hoppy_qa1.htm

You can read what he says himself; apparently he had done some work for Don. On the first page Gary states the song is about Stevie and Lindsey, but later, on page 3, he softens it a little bit. I thought you might enjoy reading it yourself.

[HenleyFan]

Well, that was interesting. From what I can tell Gary just says when he heard Life in the Fastlane it reminded him of Lindsey and Stevie. Don and Glenn tell a different story about the origins of the song (I can type up what Glenn says in the liner notes of the Very Best of if you want me to). So who should we believe....someone who says he thinks it's about this or the writers who say this was the inspiration?

But I guess people will believe what they want to believe. There are still people who think Hotel California is about the devil and/or an insane asylum.

L&M

Hey L&M, it's always good to read you. I don't know if you are familiar with The Penguin much, but there is a section of "Q&A"s with people in or associated with Fleetwood Mac in one context or another, including one by John McVie, the MAC of Fleetwood Mac!

One of the reasons the story of Life In The Fast Lane became accepted was because of one of those Q&A's, one by Gary Hodges. Maybe you'd like to read thorough it yourself:
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/hoppy_qa1.htm

You can read what he says himself; apparently he had done some work for Don. On the first page Gary states the song is about Stevie and Lindsey, but later, on page 3, he softens it a little bit. I thought you might enjoy reading it yourself.

[pattymarkle]

But I guess people will believe what they want to believe. There are still people who think Hotel California is about the devil and/or an insane asylum.

L&M

Well it is isn't it? You know that Church of Satan guy is staring down from the second floor. Oh and the "haven't had that spirit here since 1969" was the year that the Satan church was founded so "God" wasn't there anymore. And all the guys have long hair. And it was on "Asylum" Records. :]

Geez - I remember those day way to well. Everything was related to Satan. KISS was Knights in Satans Service. Styx of course was all about crossing the River Styx going to hell. I remember the mom of one of my friends, that I must have been corrupting or something, pointing the man on the second floor of Hotel California and saying he was the founder of the Church of Satan. I won't even begin to explain Stevie at this point. GEEZ!

I went and pulled one of my three Hotel California albums (they stack up like old husbands and boyfriends) to see my guy looking down again. Where did these people come up with these ideas?

I need a record player. I don't have a problem worshiping at the alter of my Rock Gods and Goddesses.

Patty

[lagringader&r]

-----------------------------------------------------
He was a hard-headed man he was brutally handsome
And she was terminally pretty

They knew all the right people
They took all the right pills
They threw outrageous parties
They paid heavenly bills
There were lines on the mirror, lines on her face
She pretended not to notice she was caught up in the race
Out every evening until it was light
He was too tired to make it she was too tired to fight about it----------------------------------------------------------



These words could be written about anyone who socializes with a certain group of people, meaning the partiers, the stoners, the cokeheads, the musicians. These words could have been written about most of my friends and me. It's all life in the fast lane when you're hanging with a group that's considered *wild* by common morality. Doesn't even have to be about anyone famous. :shrug:

My tone is also not meant to be snarky. Just commenting that these lyrics don't mean a whole lot or single Stevie and Lindsey out. :nod:

[catinthedark]

I don't see how those lyrics you posted apply any more specifically to Stevie & Lindsey than they do to hundreds of other power couples doing cocaine & partying in the 1970s.

You're right. But as I said, I had heard before that it was about S&L, and so I was just demonstrating why I thought it was possible. I was actually surprised to hear that people didn't think it was about them because of what I had heard. Turns out, maybe those people I'd heard it from were wrong. I stand corrected.


Right. But I had never heard it mentioned before the whole Internet thing started, & once something is posted on the Net, it spreads like wildfire & people encounter it & often assume it's a decades'-old opinion or explanation.

Okay. Well. I had heard it prior to the whole internet thing. I actually lived quite a bit of life before the internet became mainstream. Read: I'm old.


Are you exaggerating? do you only talk to Stevie fans?

Quite the contrary. The only Stevie fans I know are right here on this board.

Bottom line is probably that we all carry around these wonderful fictions in our minds about who wrote about what, & we taylor those fictions to suit our desires.

Actually, I think there was a bit of a grand leap made about how I interpret Stevie's songs, and Don and Glen's songs, for that matter (not necessarily by you, David. But I was getting that feeling while reading all the responses). I was only inquiring about HC and LITFL, basing my comments on what I'd heard. You're all correct: those lyrics could apply to anyone. But since I'd been told it was about them, those particular lyrics seemed to back that notion. As I've said, I stand corrected. I promise never to make such a grievous error again.

But, for the record, I also am not one of the club that believe that all of Stevie's songs are about one specific person with the initials LB. I definitely think many of them are - especially the ones she has confirmed are about him. But I think she often writes about lots of different people and situations and relationships in single songs - she takes little bits of her life and melds them together. It's why her songs are sometimes more difficult to decipher. But I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with people speculating about lyrics - especially when they can be so ambiguous.

P.S. I never thought Witchy Woman was about Stevie either.

[lagringader&r]

Question for HenleyFan (L&M): Did the band ever say what or who Victim of Love and King of Hollywood are about? I'm guessing KOH is just about the Hollywood film industry, breaking in and the infamous casting couch. VOL is probably my fave Eagles song of all time and just wondered what the inspiration was, if any. Btw, I'm glad you stuck around. It's cool having you here. :D

[gldstwmn]

OMG. She certainly DID the Eagles, didn't she ? Can you imagine the conversations these guys have had over a truckload of liquor and coke ? To be a fly on the wall.
Especially Don. That man has been, and from all reports still is, a world class womanizer.Sheesh.

The man knows how to live. A friend of mine worked for Concerts West many years ago and was a road manager for a bunch of different bands. His exploits with J.D. Souther nearly got him divorced. From what he told me, Souther was quite the womanizer himself.

[gldstwmn]

Question for HenleyFan (L&M): Did the band ever say what or who Victim of Love and King of Hollywood are about? I'm guessing KOH is just about the Hollywood film industry, breaking in and the infamous casting couch. :D

King Of Hollywood has to be about the one and only Robert Evans. Just a wild guess on my part, though.

[gldstwmn]

I only call Don a "womanizer" because I have heard from so many people that he isn't particularly kind to the women he hooks up with. The ones who aren't famous anyway.

Lear 'em and leave 'em was only for the famous girls, then?

[gldstwmn]

TISL is totally about this one f**ktard who ruined my outlook on love. I got over it. :laugh:

That record eerily mirrored my life at that time. Only it wasn't all just about a man or men I had known but a whole bunch of other things. The line "I'm afraid soon there'll be no light" and "We will never change again the way we are changing" reflect me watching my brother wither away and die from cancer.
Too much information, I know. :sorry:

[amber]

That record eerily mirrored my life at that time. Only it wasn't all just about a man or men I had known but a whole bunch of other things. The line "I'm afraid soon there'll be no light" and "We will never change again the way we are changing" reflect me watching my brother wither away and die from cancer.
Too much information, I know. :sorry:
No. :xoxo: That would be an extremely painful experience for almost anyone, and I think it's nice to share how you felt.

[Kelly]

look at my name , there was a rumor go'in round .............and i do believe that song was written about her :nod: :nod: she said of don henley "he taught me how to shop"

The problem with this is that Don wrote the song WW YEARS before he even met Stevie. Perhaps he sees the irony in the lyrics when he thinks about Stevie today but the fact remains, he could NOT have written the song ABOUT Stevie. (Unless he was somehow psychic and saw that Stevie would eventually have a hit song named Rhiannon etc etc)


Obviously Don/Eagles have a different writing style than Stevie. Stevie does in fact, write about real people and real events in her songs. She has said she almost exclusively does that...writes about what is going on around her and in her own life. That does not mean that some of her songs are not a compilation of many events and feelings. They all are not literal narratives of specific events. Some are. Don obviously writes differently, according to Henleyfan. I still question whether it is possible that at times certain members may be misleading...as in vague...when discussing certain lyrics. I do find it sort of odd that these men would NOT write about their personal relationships at times because most writers draw on their own experiences. Perhaps they always write in a general, non specific way and even make up stories but it sounds bizarre to me that ALL their songs would be that way. I can also see how if Don DID write parts of LITFL about SnL, why he would never say so publically. Only HE knows if any specific lines were inspired by REAL events or encounters. Realistically though the song is most likely about just what the Henley fans say it is...the crazy lifestyle of Rock and Rollers in the 70's.

[littlecricket2]

I have a question for anyone who's into Don Henley:

There's a song off his Inside Job album called "Miss Ghost." Does anyone know if that's about any woman in particular, or if it was inspired by any woman/women any of us have heard of?

[HenleyFan]

Don has said it's about a former girlfriend, but that's all he'll say about it. There was a lot of speculation about the song when the album first came out, but no one knows for sure who he's talking about. Only he does. :)

L&M


I have a question for anyone who's into Don Henley:

There's a song off his Inside Job album called "Miss Ghost." Does anyone know if that's about any woman in particular, or if it was inspired by any woman/women any of us have heard of?

[WelshWitchPMD]

On a slightly different note, I've always thought that "Dear John" by Joe Walsh was for/about Stevie. That's pure speculation, though... based on little more than my interpretation of the lyrics and the timing of the album (and the little "Thank you Stevie" in the liner notes.)


I always thought that too, Tiff. Maybe HenleyFan might have some info on this song.

[gldstwmn]

No. That would be an extremely painful experience for almost anyone, and I think it's nice to share how you felt.

Thanks Amby. :xoxo:

[Johnny Stew]

That record eerily mirrored my life at that time. Only it wasn't all just about a man or men I had known but a whole bunch of other things. The line "I'm afraid soon there'll be no light" and "We will never change again the way we are changing" reflect me watching my brother wither away and die from cancer.
Too much information, I know. :sorry:Not too much information at all, sweetie.
I'm sorry to hear what a horrible time you were going through just a few years ago. Your story is a reminder of how effective music can be at helping us get through rough times.

{{{hugs}}}

[pattymarkle]

That record eerily mirrored my life at that time. Only it wasn't all just about a man or men I had known but a whole bunch of other things. The line "I'm afraid soon there'll be no light" and "We will never change again the way we are changing" reflect me watching my brother wither away and die from cancer.
Too much information, I know. :sorry:

Oh goodness. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Her TISL album was her most intense album for her third-eye writing. Or at least in my opinion. It is so strange how she had stuff that was 30 years old on there and she released it when she did and then have 9/11 happen and things like you describe with your brother.

:xoxo: (that was a hug)
Patty

[gldstwmn]

Not too much information at all, sweetie.
I'm sorry to hear what a horrible time you were going through just a few years ago. Your story is a reminder of how effective music can be at helping us get through rough times.

{{{hugs}}}

That's part of why I love Stevie so much. She writes in such a way that let's you know that someone else really gets it, which can be extremely healing. :angel:

[gldstwmn]

Oh goodness. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Her TISL album was her most intense album for her third-eye writing. Or at least in my opinion. It is so strange how she had stuff that was 30 years old on there and she released it when she did and then have 9/11 happen and things like you describe with your brother.

:xoxo: (that was a hug)
Patty

Thank you Patty. It's funny that you bring up 9/11. I was just going to post some thought about TISL and that. I mean, she named the record Trouble In Shangri La. I truly think in some way, subliminally, she prophesized it. A lot of lyrics in the title track reminded me of what people must have been thinking and feeling after the attack. And she was there! Can you imagine how that must have flipped her out?

[Johnny Stew]

That's part of why I love Stevie so much. She writes in such a way that let's you know that someone else really gets it, which can be extremely healing. :angel:Yeah, I like to think of myself as a little more than just a "lemming" fan, as we're often accused of... but that's the thing about Stevie's writing that amazes me the most, too.
She always seems to "get it"... she has this way of saying something that moves me and gets to me in a way no other writer has (at least not on a continual basis).

Often times there will be a song on one of her albums, and for many years it'll be "just a song"... and then one day that song will come on, and I'll hear it in a completely different way. And then it's, as you said, extremely healing.

[Johnny Stew]

It's funny that you bring up 9/11. I was just going to post some thought about TISL and that. I mean, she named the record Trouble In Shangri La. I truly think in some way, subliminally, she prophesized it. A lot of lyrics in the title track reminded me of what people must have been thinking and feeling after the attack. And she was there! Can you imagine how that must have flipped her out?The connections that can be made, are pretty eerie.

"I guess we don't believe things could go that far... we all believe in people, that we think believe in God... Somewhere in the night, someone feels the pain... the ones who walk away try to love again...
I hear there's trouble in Shangri-La...."

[pattymarkle]

Thank you Patty. It's funny that you bring up 9/11. I was just going to post some thought about TISL and that. I mean, she named the record Trouble In Shangri La. I truly think in some way, subliminally, she prophesized it. A lot of lyrics in the title track reminded me of what people must have been thinking and feeling after the attack. And she was there! Can you imagine how that must have flipped her out?

Oh I know exactly what you are talking about. When I really stop and think about it and her being in New York, I am getting chills now just thinking about it. The cover of TISL freaks me out because the arch she is looking through reminds me of the twin towers there with her standing there by the sea just a jump away. God she is so connected. I have my own little psychic thoughts from time to time but I can't imagine something that powerful coming through me. :eek:

That is why her 9/11 journal means so much to me because I honestly do go back and read it again and again because they are comforting and to bring our discussion back on topic; Listening to her sing, "New York Minute" with Don really gives me the chills too. I wanted to see them live but am so grateful someone came out with a copy of that. Such a deep song.

Love,
Patty

[pattymarkle]

The connections that can be made, are pretty eerie.

"I guess we don't believe things could go that far... we all believe in people, that we think believe in God... Somewhere in the night, someone feels the pain... the ones who walk away try to love again...
I hear there's trouble in Shangri-La...."

Oh God here it comes again. CHILLS CHILLS CHILLS. I can either be really freaked out or just thank my lucky stars for Stevie. What a hand to hold while we walk though our life. I can count on her more than any other person I know, real or imagined.

Patty

[HenleyFan]

I had to ask Joe fans about this one. I'm not familiar with all of Joe's solo work. Reading the lyrics I see how it could be about Stevie. Also, at that time Joe was divorcing his second wife, Juanita. So Dear John could also be for her.

L&M

On a slightly different note, I've always thought that "Dear John" by Joe Walsh was for/about Stevie. That's pure speculation, though... based on little more than my interpretation of the lyrics and the timing of the album (and the little "Thank you Stevie" in the liner notes.)

[David]

I mean, she named the record Trouble In Shangri La. I truly think in some way, subliminally, she prophesized it.Wait. I don't get it. How does the title "Trouble in Shangri-La" prophesy what happened on 9/11? What parallel is there between Shangri-La & New York City, or the United States? Shangri-La is a utopia, a hidden paradise on Earth whose inhabitants live for hundreds of years. Actually, I never really knew what Stevie was talking about by naming the album "Trouble in Shangri-La," other than as a vague sort of metaphor for the isolated, luxurious qualities of being an extremely rich superstar, for whom so many of the problems of the world are nonexistent or at most minimal. I'm not sure that it's any more prophetic than a typical Nostradamus stanza (which is nothing more than an understanding of the repeating patterns of human experience & behavior).

I could say, "there'll be trouble in this land next year," & sure enough, there will be! Everybody knows that.

I think Stevie just chose the phrase "Shangri-La" for the same reasons she borrows words & phrases from classic authors: she likes the sound of the phrases, first of all, & secondly, these phrases & speechways & allusions resonate in her mind as mythic, romantic, far-away, untouchable but all-wise, pearls of knowledge from an ever-receding & unrecoverable past.

Now I don't mean to talk any of you out of believing that Stevie is your prophet. I don't want to do that. I have my prophets, too, & I'd get bummed out if someone shot my prophets full of holes (for example, the review of "Science: The Glorious Entertainment" that appeared in the New York Review of Books in the 1960s really landed a couple of smart ones on Barzun's Gallic chin).

[Johnny Stew]

Wait. I don't get it. How does the title "Trouble in Shangri-La" prophesy what happened on 9/11? What parallel is there between Shangri-La & New York City, or the United States? Shangri-La is a utopia, a hidden paradise on Earth whose inhabitants live for hundreds of years.Without sounding like an "Ugly American," I relate it to the way America is often viewed as a "Shangri-La"... you know, the country where the streets are paved with gold.

Don't be so literal, Davey. ;)

[David]

Without sounding like an "Ugly American," I relate it to the way America is often viewed as a "Shangri-La"... you know, the country where the streets are paved with gold.So Stevie had Shangri-La confused with El Dorado?

I guess it's possible.

Again, I think Stevie was just going for the phrase that sounded far-away & mythic & spine-tingling. Either that, or she had just seen that terrible Ross Hunter musical with Peter Finch.

[gldstwmn]

Wait. I don't get it. How does the title "Trouble in Shangri-La" prophesy what happened on 9/11? What parallel is there between Shangri-La & New York City, or the United States? Shangri-La is a utopia, a hidden paradise on Earth whose inhabitants live for hundreds of years. Actually, I never really knew what Stevie was talking about by naming the album "Trouble in Shangri-La," other than as a vague sort of metaphor for the isolated, luxurious qualities of being an extremely rich superstar, for whom so many of the problems of the world are nonexistent or at most minimal. I'm not sure that it's any more prophetic than a typical Nostradamus stanza (which is nothing more than an understanding of the repeating patterns of human experience & behavior).

I could say, "there'll be trouble in this land next year," & sure enough, there will be! Everybody knows that.

I think Stevie just chose the phrase "Shangri-La" for the same reasons she borrows words & phrases from classic authors: she likes the sound of the phrases, first of all, & secondly, these phrases & speechways & allusions resonate in her mind as mythic, romantic, far-away, untouchable but all-wise, pearls of knowledge from an ever-receding & unrecoverable past.

Now I don't mean to talk any of you out of believing that Stevie is your prophet. I don't want to do that. I have my prophets, too, & I'd get bummed out if someone shot my prophets full of holes (for example, the review of "Science: The Glorious Entertainment" that appeared in the New York Review of Books in the 1960s really landed a couple of smart ones on Barzun's Gallic chin).

:lol: It's okay. In my mind, here we were, just living our lives thinking we were all safe and secure and for the most part, compared to many other places, we've got it pretty good. Then bam! All of a sudden, our illusions are shattered on a beautiful crisp September morning. And things have never been quite right since.
The parallels between the lyrics of the title track and what was to come are prophetic to me: I run through the grass, I run over the stones, Show me the way back...
And also this verse: With honor be it spoken to understand this light that we carry* And let it light your way* Of course you know I generally take it
And finally: And it brings up the wind* And it rises around you in pillars of color* But the promise has been broken* As you walk through the shadow of death* You try to see no evil* But you are so heartbroken* you say, Dear God make it stop*Before the dawn of separation
Now I realize she didn't conciously have the events of 9/11 in her mind when she wrote the song, I just think that somehow, unconciously she wrote of things to come. I wonder if this was one of those songs that just came to her or one that she had to work on for a while?

[gldstwmn]

Without sounding like an "Ugly American," I relate it to the way America is often viewed as a "Shangri-La"... you know, the country where the streets are paved with gold.

Don't be so literal, Davey. ;)

:lol: Yes, Johnny, that's what I'm talking about.

[QuiGonKong]

The man knows how to live. A friend of mine worked for Concerts West many years ago and was a road manager for a bunch of different bands. His exploits with J.D. Souther nearly got him divorced. From what he told me, Souther was quite the womanizer himself.
And,ofcourse, Stevie had a brief fling with Souther too. It makes me wonder if Stevie likes...or liked....that type of guy. The bad boy womanizer who is going to do her wrong. Maybe she figures it will be good songwriting material.

[pattymarkle]

I always took Shangri-La to mean Paradise, so trouble in Paradise. Is New York City paradise? I suppose it depends on who you ask. It wouldn't be my version of paradise. Don't take it so literally. I know what you mean about prophecy can be found anywhere when you look at backwards. I also believe that prophecy is always self-fulfilling. So I don't think it is so much prophecy as what I do premonitions.

That one part of the song that was quoted earlier:

I guess we don't believe
That things could go that far
We all believe in people...
That we think believe in God
Somewhere in the night...
Someone feels the pain
The ones who walk away
Try to love again...

When I think of that and the fact that Stevie arrived in New York that morning, it just gives me a very strange feeling. Plus if you take her at her word that she wrote Rhiannon with no knowledge of the Welsh Goddess Myth, she just read the name in a book and then wrote the song with elements of the myth woven through it, it makes me believe that she is plugged in somewhere, without her even having knowledge of it.

Whatever the reason, she just makes me feel better and it has worked since I was around 10 years old. Now that I am T-361 days for 40, I'm sticking it out with her.

Patty

[equeen102289]

Thanks HenleyFan for all the information you have provided. Even though, Henley has never publicly said a certain song was inspired by Stevie...I'd still like to think she's somewhere in a few of them. :)

Also, to comment on TISL, I definitely think it could have been one of her premonitions, whether she realized it at the time or not. I'm not saying it's directly related to 9/11, but it sure captures the whole feeling of it. And we all know this wouldn't be the first song she has done this with...I mean, look at After the Glitter Fades...

[pattymarkle]

And,ofcourse, Stevie had a brief fling with Souther too. It makes me wonder if Stevie likes...or liked....that type of guy. The bad boy womanizer who is going to do her wrong. Maybe she figures it will be good songwriting material.

Okay who is my missing Eagle? I said, Don, Joe and J.D Souther for extra points. Then somebody said she had affairs with 4 Eagles. Are we counting J.D. Souther as one of those four? Who else did she have a fling with? I know it wasn't Glenn, because didn't he not like her very much? Randy Meisner? Don Felder?? Jackson Browne wasn't an Eagle and I don't think she did him, but he did write "Take it Easy". If she did do him, I am jealous because he was my first Rock and Roll crush. :blob1:

Patty

[gldstwmn]

And,ofcourse, Stevie had a brief fling with Souther too. It makes me wonder if Stevie likes...or liked....that type of guy. The bad boy womanizer who is going to do her wrong. Maybe she figures it will be good songwriting material.

While it is a sweeping generalization, I will go ahead and say that most straight male rock stars are womanizers. It goes with the territory.

[gldstwmn]

Okay who is my missing Eagle? I said, Don, Joe and J.D Souther for extra points. Then somebody said she had affairs with 4 Eagles. Are we counting J.D. Souther as one of those four? Who else did she have a fling with? I know it wasn't Glenn, because didn't he not like her very much? Randy Meisner? Don Felder?? Jackson Browne wasn't an Eagle and I don't think she did him, but he did write "Take it Easy". If she did do him, I am jealous because he was my first Rock and Roll crush. :blob1:

Patty

I thought it was three. I don't think it was four.

[sparky]

Lear 'em and leave 'em was only for the famous girls, then?

Evidently. I won't repeat the stories I have heard here. Someone's bound to have a hissy fit.

He's mentioned in a few books. I don't have to tell the stories.

[lagringader&r]

HenleyFan, any direct inspiration for Victim of Love?

[HenleyFan]

I don't think so. What they usually say about that song is that it was recorded five piece live in the studio. They're very proud of that fact. I think the song just fits in with the themes of Hotel California.

L&M


HenleyFan, any direct inspiration for Victim of Love?

[skcin]

OK, let's make this a "what's this Eagles song about" thread. :o

L&M - My absolute fave is Take It To The Limit. Any info?

[bikerchic]

Wait. I don't get it. How does the title "Trouble in Shangri-La" prophesy what happened on 9/11? What parallel is there between Shangri-La & New York City, or the United States? Shangri-La is a utopia, a hidden paradise on Earth whose inhabitants live for hundreds of years. Actually, I never really knew what Stevie was talking about by naming the album "Trouble in Shangri-La," other than as a vague sort of metaphor for the isolated, luxurious qualities of being an extremely rich superstar, for whom so many of the problems of the world are nonexistent or at most minimal. I'm not sure that it's any more prophetic than a typical Nostradamus stanza (which is nothing more than an understanding of the repeating patterns of human experience & behavior).

I could say, "there'll be trouble in this land next year," & sure enough, there will be! Everybody knows that.

I think Stevie just chose the phrase "Shangri-La" for the same reasons she borrows words & phrases from classic authors: she likes the sound of the phrases, first of all, & secondly, these phrases & speechways & allusions resonate in her mind as mythic, romantic, far-away, untouchable but all-wise, pearls of knowledge from an ever-receding & unrecoverable past.

Now I don't mean to talk any of you out of believing that Stevie is your prophet. I don't want to do that. I have my prophets, too, & I'd get bummed out if someone shot my prophets full of holes (for example, the review of "Science: The Glorious Entertainment" that appeared in the New York Review of Books in the 1960s really landed a couple of smart ones on Barzun's Gallic chin).
Stevie said in a Jay Leno interview that when she was making "Trouble in Shangri-La", it was right around the time of the O.J. Simpson trial and the fact that someone could have soooo much (shangri-la) and then lose it all. Then stupid Jay says "so this album is about O.J. Simpson?" and Stevie say's "no, but he inspired me" :shocked: Only Stevie :laugh:

[HenleyFan]

One of the ways the Eagles wrote songs was to take a saying or cliche or turn of phrase and build a song around it. Which is why there are songs called

Take it to the Limit
Life in the Fastlane
Tequila Sunrise
Take it Easy
One of These Nights

and solo-ly

Heart of the Matter

There are more....the point is that the song isn't necessarily about anything.

L&M

OK, let's make this a "what's this Eagles song about" thread. :o

L&M - My absolute fave is Take It To The Limit. Any info?

[gldstwmn]

Evidently. I won't repeat the stories I have heard here. Someone's bound to have a hissy fit.

He's mentioned in a few books. I don't have to tell the stories.

I think one of them is You'll Never Make Love In This Town Again. I read it a long time ago and vaguely remeber Henley being mentioned in it.

[David]

Stevie said in a Jay Leno interview that when she was making "Trouble in Shangri-La", it was right around the time of the O.J. Simpson trial and the fact that someone could have soooo much (shangri-la) and then lose it all. Then stupid Jay says "so this album is about O.J. Simpson?" and Stevie say's "no, but he inspired me" :shocked: Only Stevie :laugh:THAT'S RIGHT!! Thanks for reminding us. Stevie was thinking about how someone with fame & fortune & acclaim (someone like O.J. Simpson) could "lose it all." The Simpson trial got her to thinking about that in a wider context.

But I still think the Shangri-La metaphor is a Mrs. Malapropism. It doesn't have anything to do with Shangri-La from the Hilton novel (which is a utopia unspoiled by the mobs, where you don't get sick, you live in a sort of communistic peace & you live an extremely long life, but which turns out it's really a fascistic nightmare where the individual is not encouraged to be individualistic but part of the "team" -- like today's corporate environment).

There are other, better metaphors for having it all & losing it. That's just not what Shangri-La is about. It's not actually what Stevie had in mind -- she does that a lot, though: she settles on a word or a phrase or even an entire concept that has that sort of imprecision or inexactness. That's one of the reasons I consider her such a great singer & persona but not a poet.

[sparky]

But I still think the Shangri-La metaphor is a Mrs. Malapropism. It doesn't have anything to do with Shangri-La from the Hilton novel (which is a utopia unspoiled by the mobs, where you don't get sick, you live in a sort of communistic peace & you live an extremely long life, but which turns out it's really a fascistic nightmare where the individual is not encouraged to be individualistic but part of the "team" -- like today's corporate environment).

There are other, better metaphors for having it all & losing it. That's just not what Shangri-La is about. It's not actually what Stevie had in mind -- she does that a lot, though: she settles on a word or a phrase or even an entire concept that has that sort of imprecision or inexactness. That's one of the reasons I consider her such a great singer & persona but not a poet.

:blob1: :blob1:

Exactly. It is that very vaguery which allows so many people to project their own emotions onto her songs. Ultimately, Stevie is the great borrower of existing cliches. Sometimes her borrowing can be brilliant. Sometimes it just comes off as uninspired and extremely familiar.

Mrs. Malapropism. I haven't the words to describe how perfect that is.

[glitter_fades]

THAT'S RIGHT!! Thanks for reminding us. Stevie was thinking about how someone with fame & fortune & acclaim (someone like O.J. Simpson) could "lose it all." The Simpson trial got her to thinking about that in a wider context.

But I still think the Shangri-La metaphor is a Mrs. Malapropism. It doesn't have anything to do with Shangri-La from the Hilton novel (which is a utopia unspoiled by the mobs, where you don't get sick, you live in a sort of communistic peace & you live an extremely long life, but which turns out it's really a fascistic nightmare where the individual is not encouraged to be individualistic but part of the "team" -- like today's corporate environment).

There are other, better metaphors for having it all & losing it. That's just not what Shangri-La is about. It's not actually what Stevie had in mind -- she does that a lot, though: she settles on a word or a phrase or even an entire concept that has that sort of imprecision or inexactness. That's one of the reasons I consider her such a great singer & persona but not a poet.

Which one do you think is worse? The Shangri-La misnomer or the Landslide one? :eek:

In both cases I prefer calling it a misnomer to a malapropism. :xoxo:

Usually a malapropism is so glaring a misuse it's humorous. Stevie cracks me up all the time with these, but many listeners don't notice the liberties she takes with the English language and fail to see the humor. :laugh:

:wavey:

[David]

Which one do you think is worse? The Shangri-La misnomer or the Landslide one? :eek: Well, I never thought of the "landslide" problem. Describe the problem because I'm not sure I'm on to it: is it that she meant "avalanche" (snow) & not "landslide" (dry rock)?
In both cases I prefer calling it a misnomer to a malapropism.You're absolutely right. It's a misnomer rather than a malapropism, strictly speaking. A malapropism is what Archie Bunker used to do: for example, when you refer to the "geometry of contagious countries."

Sometimes malaprops become very common, but they're still very humorous: when a political writer refers to the "enormity" of the public support George Bush had in the days following 9/11.

[glitter_fades]

Well, I never thought of the "landslide" problem. Describe the problem because I'm not sure I'm on to it:

is it that she meant "avalanche" (snow) & not "landslide" (dry rock)?

:thumbsup:


You're absolutely right. It's a misnomer rather than a malapropism, strictly speaking. A malapropism is what Archie Bunker used to do: for example, when you refer to the "geometry of contagious countries."
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Sometimes malaprops become very common, but they're still very humorous: when a political writer refers to the "enormity" of the public support George Bush had in the days following 9/11.

How about the "mandate" he had after winning the election in 2000 by ONE vote in the Supreme Court? :lol: :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

But I still think the Shangri-La metaphor is a Mrs. Malapropism. It doesn't have anything to do with Shangri-La from the Hilton novel (which is a utopia unspoiled by the mobs, where you don't get sick, you live in a sort of communistic peace & you live an extremely long life, but which turns out it's really a fascistic nightmare where the individual is not encouraged to be individualistic but part of the "team" -- like today's corporate environment).

There are other, better metaphors for having it all & losing it. That's just not what Shangri-La is about. It's not actually what Stevie had in mind -- she does that a lot, though: she settles on a word or a phrase or even an entire concept that has that sort of imprecision or inexactness. That's one of the reasons I consider her such a great singer & persona but not a poet.The concept of "Shangri-La" from 'Lost Horizon' withstanding, I don't understand what the issue is with Stevie's usage.

The dictionary defines "shangri-la" as:
1. An imaginary remote paradise on earth; utopia.
2. A distant and secluded hideaway, usually of great beauty and peacefulness.
3. Any place of complete bliss and delight and peace

Certainly Stevie's concept of "trouble in paradise" fits into that definition, without creating a misnomer.

[bushesandbriars]

THAT'S RIGHT!! Thanks for reminding us. Stevie was thinking about how someone with fame & fortune & acclaim (someone like O.J. Simpson) could "lose it all." The Simpson trial got her to thinking about that in a wider context.

But I still think the Shangri-La metaphor is a Mrs. Malapropism. It doesn't have anything to do with Shangri-La from the Hilton novel (which is a utopia unspoiled by the mobs, where you don't get sick, you live in a sort of communistic peace & you live an extremely long life, but which turns out it's really a fascistic nightmare where the individual is not encouraged to be individualistic but part of the "team" -- like today's corporate environment).

There are other, better metaphors for having it all & losing it. That's just not what Shangri-La is about. It's not actually what Stevie had in mind -- she does that a lot, though: she settles on a word or a phrase or even an entire concept that has that sort of imprecision or inexactness. That's one of the reasons I consider her such a great singer & persona but not a poet.

There's lots of interesting stuff on this thread, but I want to discuss this in particular because the sense that I'm getting here in not that Stevie's made an error in her language, but that people are people are being excessively literal and picky about language in general, about what is imaginatively acceptable and what isn't.

The last time I checked, metaphors were meant to be flexible, to conjure up a range of images and emotions from various . As Linda Ronstadt once pointed out, an artist's job is to evoke, not instruct. I doubt few people have read Lost Horizon nowadays, and Shangri-La is actually from a Chinese myth about Shang-shung, anyway, so Stevie has no obligation to be accurate to Hilton, and never mentioned him, as far as I know. She's taking a general idea in our culture--Shangri-La, which I recall being a setting for Jem when I was a little girl--and using it in her own way. That's part of what art is--people reinventing cultural symbols.

I guess my point is just that people are really, really literal about artists, and I don't agree. No artist claims to be a journalist, Stevie included, and I personally think when Stevie talks about her writing being about things going on in her life, she means everything, not just her relationships with men: I think she means what she sees on the news, what her friends are doing, what she's reading, her mood. Anything is fodder for a good writer; you don't have to experience because the artist is a trained observer and empathizer. I'll bet if you sifted heavily through her songs--demos included--you could find at least one literary nod/idea/phrase in at least half, maybe more. That does not make them derivative, though it can at times. If re-using made one derivative, Shakespeare would derivative. (And I'm not comparing Stevie to Shakespeare, just pointing out that you can read something, it strikes a chord, and you use it, thus making it both "true" and, if you do your job, fresh.) Something does not have to be literally, physically true to be imaginatively and emotionally true, and that's what art is about--the common denominator of humanity. It's why all this shippy-stuff with Lindsey makes me bonkers--she can write about a million things, and does, but they're filtered through her own perspective. To steal Nikki Giovanni's line, writers write from empathy. If they didn't, they'd dry up before you could say, "Bob's your uncle."

I don't neccessarily think Stevie is a poet, either, but not because I find her metaphors--and if we're being really picky here, Shangri-La is a simile in this case, not a metaphor, anyway--off, but because poetry is governed by precise rules of meter, form, tradition, etc.--stuff most songwriters don't have, and things that don't really lend themselves to rock bands. I'd put very, very few songwriters in the "poet" category. Stevie is really a post-modern writer--concerned with reinvention and reimagining. Her use of language can be sloppy or redundant--"windows like eyes to the soul," "the earth and the stars and the sky IS at rest with the ocean," etc--but if you want literal reportage on the human condition, watch BBC News. I'm not criticizing you or anyone else, just pointing out that I think this discussion is a little excessive in its demands for "metaphorical" accuracy.

And I want to know what you think a more suitable comparison for the rich and famous not coping with success is. You say there are many and don't cite any, and I'm curious to know.

Also, someone remarked on Stevie's use of "existing" cliches--well, yes, some sound re-hashed, probably because "existing" is the definition of a cliche--an oft-stated observation.

I'm truly not trying to snipe at anyone; I think all your opinions are fascinating. I just thought the things I mentioned were missing from the discussion, and I think that they need to be in here just to be fair to what Stevie and all creative people do.

[David]

She's taking a general idea in our culture--Shangri-La, which I recall being a setting for Jem when I was a little girl--and using it in her own way. That's part of what art is--people reinventing cultural symbols.But if it doesn't ring true to me, it doesn't ring true. What can I tell ya? If her image -- her selection of one word or phrase from among the many that language makes available to her -- doesn't hit me as especially evocative or well-chosen, there isn't much I can do about it.
I guess my point is just that people are really, really literal about artists, and I don't agree.Well, it's silly to expect poets to be essayists or journalists or other recorders of facts in their poems. But it's not silly to expect poets -- or songwriters -- to select words, phrases & images that are precise in the sense that they are chosen for the rightness of their connotation as well as their denotation. There are dozens of ways, in any language, of saying the same thing; & there are even ways of saying the same thing by using words in new ways. It's all open to the poet. But words aren't lumps of clay. You can look at a lump of clay & have no idea what the sculptor made out of it beforehand. He's free to turn it into a horse or a spaceship or even some creature you've never seen before. Words have history associated with them, they have images & ideas associated with them & they have feelings associated with them. It's the poet's business to have all that in mind in order to either recapitulate denotation & connotation or to extend them in some startling & magical new way.
I don't neccessarily think Stevie is a poet, either, but not because I find her metaphors--and if we're being really picky here, Shangri-La is a simile in this case, not a metaphor, anyway--off, but because poetry is governed by precise rules of meter, form, tradition, etc.--stuff most songwriters don't have, and things that don't really lend themselves to rock bands."I hear there's trouble in Shangri-La" is not a simile. It's a metaphor. I like to think I'm picky enough to distinguish a simile from a metaphor. In Fowler's good definition: "Between simile & metaphor the differences are (1) that a simile is a comparison proclaimed as such, whereas a metaphor is a tacit comparison made by the subtitution of the compared notion for the one to be illustrated; (2) that the simile is usually worked out at some length & often includes many points of resemblance, whereas a metaphor is as often as not expressed in a single word; & (3) that in nine out of ten metaphors the purpose is the practical one of presenting the notion in the most intelligible or convincing or arresting way, but nine out of ten similes are to be classed not as a means of explanation or persuasion, but as ends in themselves, things of real or supposed beauty for which a suitable place is to be found."
I'd put very, very few songwriters in the "poet" category. Stevie is really a post-modern writer--concerned with reinvention and reimagining. Her use of language can be sloppy or redundant--"windows like eyes to the soul," "the earth and the stars and the sky IS at rest with the ocean," etc--but if you want literal reportage on the human condition, watch BBC News. I'm not criticizing you or anyone else, just pointing out that I think this discussion is a little excessive in its demands for "metaphorical" accuracy.But you're eating your cake & having it, too. As far as I'm concerned, it's excessive to demand reportorial or denotative accuracy of a songwriter or a poet, but not excessive to demand metaphorical accuracy (which I assume is nothing more than the precise, selective use of language to render connotative -- or suggestive -- accuracy). I also don't agree with you that all poetry is governed by precise rules of meter, form & tradition; much of it is, but even that amount adheres to rules that have evolved from earlier rules & may bear little, if any, resemblance to the older rules. My reason for not considering Stevie a poet is that I don't see in her that precise, selective use of language to render connotative -- or suggestive -- accuracy. . . which is why I posted about the use of "trouble in Shangri-La" in the first place! What if she had named the song "Trouble in Paradise"? What would be different? or even lost? What is it specifically about the use of the phrase "Shangri-La" that "does it" for the song? I think I actually cited an advantage earlier: it sounds mystical, far-away, exotic, slightly mandarin, & I posited the possibility that Stevie was attracted to the phrase for that very appeal.
And I want to know what you think a more suitable comparison for the rich and famous not coping with success is. You say there are many and don't cite any, and I'm curious to know.Jeez, that's the job of the poet, isn't it? Certainly evocative, resonant, metaphorically precise words & images have been used to represent this idea -- by Updike, by William James, by Fitzgerald (with his haunting green light that recedes before Gatsby, who pursues it & pursues it until death stops him), by Wharton, by Benet, by Mencken, by Howells -- heck, by every writer who's ever penned moral tales on the themes of the American Dream.
I'm truly not trying to snipe at anyone; I think all your opinions are fascinating. I just thought the things I mentioned were missing from the discussion, and I think that they need to be in here just to be fair to what Stevie and all creative people do.I don't see why it's a question of being "fair." Stevie writes something, & it has meaning & resonance to some people, but other people find it vague, imprecise, unpersuasive. Stevie doesn't necessarily need a defense attorney.

[David]

The concept of "Shangri-La" from 'Lost Horizon' withstanding, I don't understand what the issue is with Stevie's usage.

The dictionary defines "shangri-la" as:
1. An imaginary remote paradise on earth; utopia.
2. A distant and secluded hideaway, usually of great beauty and peacefulness.
3. Any place of complete bliss and delight and peace

Certainly Stevie's concept of "trouble in paradise" fits into that definition, without creating a misnomer.I guess you could read "Shangri-La" as extremely ironic if you interpret it as symbolic of the luxury & power of the famous. I have trouble connecting the suggestion of peace, tranquility & longevity (Shangri-La) with the fast-paced, vainglorious, tinsel-town world of famous rock stars & other entertainers.

[glitter_fades]

Don't get me started on --"windows like eyes to the soul."

That's a simile, but the wrong one. :nod:

:sorry: Stevie. Have you're attorney call me in the morning. :lol:

[dissention]

Don't get me started on --"windows like eyes to the soul."

That's a simile, but the wrong one. :nod:

:sorry: Stevie. Have you're attorney call me in the morning. :lol:

Would you say that to Bob Dylan?

[catinthedark]

Would you say that to Bob Dylan?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

I guess you could read "Shangri-La" as extremely ironic if you interpret it as symbolic of the luxury & power of the famous. I have trouble connecting the suggestion of peace, tranquility & longevity (Shangri-La) with the fast-paced, vainglorious, tinsel-town world of famous rock stars & other entertainers.In your post prior to this one, you seem to suggest that "Trouble In Paradise" might have been a better word choice for her, and would have more accurately reflected Stevie's concept.
But isn't "paradise" also an idyllic, tranquil place? Why would the editorial choice of using "paradise" be viewed as more acceptable than using "shangri-la"?

If we need to be completely literal, Stevie should have sung, "I hear there's trouble in La-La Land."
Unfortunately, "La-La Land" doesn't sound nearly as compelling as "Shangri-La."

[glitter_fades]

Would you say that to Bob Dylan?

If he said something as jackass as that, I would. :lol:

:wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

Would you say that to Bob Dylan?I'm wondering if anyone here would carp at Dylan for using the phrase "Heaven's Door," when we ALL know Heaven has a gate. ;)

[glitter_fades]

I'm wondering if anyone here would carp at Dylan for using the phrase "Heaven's Door," when we ALL know Heaven has a gate. ;)

He deserves a royal ass whoopin' for that boner. :laugh:

:wavey:

[dissention]

I'm wondering if anyone here would carp at Dylan for using the phrase "Heaven's Door," when we ALL know Heaven has a gate. ;)

Not ALL of us, dear. :wavey:

[sparky]

Also, someone remarked on Stevie's use of "existing" cliches--well, yes, some sound re-hashed, probably because "existing" is the definition of a cliche--an oft-stated observation.

That would be me.

I am quite fond of cliches, actually. They wouldn't be cliches if there wasn't some truth to them. But, it is plain old lazy to just repeat a cliche. I like to hear people do something with them. A few of my favorite writers twist cliches just a tiny bit and make them sound either novel or completely fresh. And usually it's country writers.

Rosanne Cash is genius at this. How tired is the saying "Distance makes the heart grow fonder" ? Rosanne's take on this ?

"Distance makes the heart start wondering
Absence makes the anger grow
The world may just be spinning through us
And separation lets it show."

Move you or not, Yeats or not, at least she does something with the old saying.

Even Clint Black, whose main claim to fame in my book is how he looks in a pair of Wranglers, has fun with cliches (actually I think he's a fine writer).

"Put yourself in my shoes
Walk a mile for me
I'll put myself in your shoes
Maybe then we'd see
That if you put yourself in my shoes
You'd have some sympathy
And if I could only put myself in your shoes
I'd walk right back to me."

It's not serious. It's cute. Doesn't have to be earth shattering. Just do something, anything with your cliche. Please !

I hear Clint, and snicker. I smirk. I hear Rosanne, then think of "Ooooh it's just like a river, Ooooh it's never ending", and I want to gouge my eyes out with a fondue fork. And I don't even own a fondue fork.

Addendum : The fine Mrs. Leventhal is also responsible for the following brilliant turn:
"The tables are turning, the tempo slows down
And we're getting off this misery go round."

Ahh, Misery Go Round. Now that is delicious. So good I co-opted it and use it at opportune moments.

[Johnny Stew]

Not ALL of us, dear. :wavey:But then you might take issue with Dylan referring to Heaven at all! :laugh:

[bushesandbriars]

But if it doesn't ring true to me, it doesn't ring true. What can I tell ya? If her image -- her selection of one word or phrase from among the many that language makes available to her -- doesn't hit me as especially evocative or well-chosen, there isn't much I can do about it.

Yes, but when you referred to her as "Ms. Malapropism", it meant she had completely misapplied the term, which she didn't.



Well, it's silly to expect poets to be essayists or journalists or other recorders of facts in their poems.

My point exactly--which is why, when you say she's using Hilton's idea wrongly, it sounds as though you think ideas should remain rigid and unevolved. None of the things you're now saying about reinvention were in the original post. You're explicit that she's objectively wrong, and say little about your definition of precision.


But it's not silly to expect poets -- or songwriters -- to select words, phrases & images that are precise in the sense that they are chosen for the rightness of their connotation as well as their denotation. There are dozens of ways, in any language, of saying the same thing; & there are even ways of saying the same thing by using words in new ways. It's all open to the poet.

Exactly, which is why I spoke about reinvention--Stevie's taking an idea that exists in the culture and using it in her own way. Most people would agree with her interpretation of Shangri-La, which as I pointed out, is Chinese in lore, and not Hilton's to define exclusively.



But words aren't lumps of clay. You can look at a lump of clay & have no idea what the sculptor made out of it beforehand. He's free to turn it into a horse or a spaceship or even some creature you've never seen before. Words have history associated with them, they have images & ideas associated with them & they have feelings associated with them. It's the poet's business to have all that in mind in order to either recapitulate denotation & connotation or to extend them in some startling & magical new way.

Lumps of clay may be symbolically neutral, but most of us have seen sculptures before, especially sculptors, and sculptures exist in a cultural context just as words do, not a vaccum, so the comparison here isn't quite on. And it's a contradiction to demand that artists reinvent ideas and criticize Stevie for not using Lost Horizon the way Hilton did.


"I hear there's trouble in Shangri-La" is not a simile. It's a metaphor. I like to think I'm picky enough to distinguish a simile from a metaphor. In Fowler's good definition: "Between simile & metaphor the differences are (1) that a simile is a comparison proclaimed as such, whereas a metaphor is a tacit comparison made by the subtitution of the compared notion for the one to be illustrated; (2) that the simile is usually worked out at some length & often includes many points of resemblance, whereas a metaphor is as often as not expressed in a single word; & (3) that in nine out of ten metaphors the purpose is the practical one of presenting the notion in the most intelligible or convincing or arresting way, but nine out of ten similes are to be classed not as a means of explanation or persuasion, but as ends in themselves, things of real or supposed beauty for which a suitable place is to be found."

From your previous quote, I understood that you disliked the entire concept, and not the title track, and Stevie was quite explicit in her comparison when she spoke in her interviews, that the two things were alike, and that she was making a comparison. But hell, since we're having fun with literary dictionaries, here's J.A. Cuddon:

Simile: "A figure of soeech in which one thing is likened to another, is such a way as to clarify or enhance an image."

Metaphor: "A figure of speech in which one thing is described in terms of another."

So she may use the title track as a metaphor of sorts, but the concept certainly isn't. The interpretation is explicit, not implicit.


But you're eating your cake & having it, too.

Actually, I think that's kinda what you're doing, since I'm not demanding "reportorial or denotative accuracy," but think you were by saying Shangri-La is a malapropism or misnomer. All I'm pointing out, by saying Stevie is post-modernist, is that she is concerned primarily with re-invention, which requires imaginative freedom.

As far as I'm concerned, it's excessive to demand reportorial or denotative accuracy of a songwriter or a poet, but not excessive to demand metaphorical accuracy (which I assume is nothing more than the precise, selective use of language to render connotative -- or suggestive -- accuracy).


[QUOTE=David]I also don't agree with you that all poetry is governed by precise rules of meter, form & tradition; much of it is, but even that amount adheres to rules that have evolved from earlier rules & may bear little, if any, resemblance to the older rules.

Nowhere did I say all poetry is governed by these things, but the majority of it is governed by meter, and all of it has form, even if the form is not traditional, the rules of the new form are made explicit by each worker in that form. And all of it does come from a tradiion of one kind or another, whether reacting for or against--be it Futurism or Modernism, it comes from somewhere. Even rap can be related back to Gwendolen Brooks's poems. And I certainly never said poetry doesn't evolve, though many forms are still in use--villanelles, sestinas, pantoum--and people evolve based on the past. My post is all about re-invention, which poets do as well, and must, and about why Stevie's use of Shangri-La isn't inaccurate, just not resonant for you, because as I said, your point previously wasn't about reinvention but about misuse.



My reason for not considering Stevie a poet is that I don't see in her that precise, selective use of language to render connotative -- or suggestive -- accuracy. . . which is why I posted about the use of "trouble in Shangri-La" in the first place! What if she had named the song "Trouble in Paradise"? What would be different? or even lost? What is it specifically about the use of the phrase "Shangri-La" that "does it" for the song? I think I actually cited an advantage earlier: it sounds mystical, far-away, exotic, slightly mandarin, & I posited the possibility that Stevie was attracted to the phrase for that very appeal.

I agree her accuracy can be off, but I don't agree in this case, obviously.
I could point out that Paradise is defined by other literary works--the Bible and Divine Comedy--and that they come with their own set of terms and limits that are no less specific than Shangri-La. And Paradise is hackneyed--Meat Loaf, Phil Collins, and Robin Zander have used it that I can think of. Perhaps she wished to avoid a religious element.


Jeez, that's the job of the poet, isn't it? Certainly evocative, resonant, metaphorically precise words & images have been used to represent this idea -- by Updike, by William James, by Fitzgerald (with his haunting green light that recedes before Gatsby, who pursues it & pursues it until death stops him), by Wharton, by Benet, by Mencken, by Howells -- heck, by every writer who's ever penned moral tales on the themes of the American Dream.

I asked because you stated this with such conviction I wanted to know. I wasn't asking for new ones penned by you, if that's what you mean. :shrug: I think maybe it's a little pretentious to hold a rock and roll singer up to Fitzgerald and William James, don't you?


I don't see why it's a question of being "fair." Stevie writes something, & it has meaning & resonance to some people, but other people find it vague, imprecise, unpersuasive. Stevie doesn't necessarily need a defense attorney.

No one said she did, and I suppose the implication is that I came off as one, which isn't so. And I pointed it out because rather than making a case for what you thought was wrong, you and a couple of others went a tangent as though she'd done some wrong to the English language that was sweeping the nation, which also isn't so. She can be imprecise, as can any other number of writers, but in this case I don't think she's nearly as off as you've made it out to be.

Not picking a fight; just giving my opinion.

[David]

Yes, but when you referred to her as "Ms. Malapropism", it meant she had completely misapplied the term, which she didn't.I think she did. Here's her concept: It was written about the situation that he and many people that sort of make it to the height of their field. Whether you're a sports figure or a rock star or a doctor or a lawyer, indian chief, you know, candlemaker... whatever it is, when you kind of get to the top of your field and you are, like, really there. And how difficult it is for people to stay there. And how difficult it is for people to not go crazy.

To me, this has nothing to do with Shangri-La in any direct or extended sense. If this elicits the cultural idea of Shangri-La to you, then we're at an impasse.
My point exactly--which is why, when you say she's using Hilton's idea wrongly, it sounds as though you think ideas should remain rigid and unevolved.You make this a zero sum game: either ideas can be stretched to the connotative breaking point, or they must remain "rigid & unevolved." I stand at neither end of that spectrum.
None of the things you're now saying about reinvention were in the original post. You're explicit that she's objectively wrong, and say little about your definition of precision.Oh, well I apologize for being unable to jot down my entire poetics right here & now for you, but I'm still going to stand for connotative precision in poetry & in language in its broader sense. Reinvention is unavoidable, obviously -- we all reinvent, all of us who use language. Every day, we employ words & phrases to describe what we're feeling & doing in ways that may not have been used in quite that way before (at least in our experience). Sometimes we "reinvent" & people don't know what the hell we're talking about. Doesn't it happen to you? It happens to me quite often. "Shangri-La" doesn't have to be Chinese or Hilton or anything else specifically in order for it to be widely understood in any community. It need only be common -- it needs to belong to that community if it is to be understood at all. If Stevie wants to use the concept of Shangri-La to describe a slaughterhouse she once visited, either it's going to be understood only in the most severely ironic way, or it's not going to be understood at all. It's not going to be precise; it's not going to be persuasive.
Stevie's taking an idea that exists in the culture and using it in her own way. Most people would agree with her interpretation of Shangri-La, which as I pointed out, is Chinese in lore, and not Hilton's to define exclusively.
As far as I'm concerned, using Shangri-La to describe people who make it to the height of their field & then crash is imprecise. I am resolute -- my mind's made up. If you feel otherwise, go to town. That's okay. The song (or the concept of the whole album) is as much yours as it is mine.
Lumps of clay may be symbolically neutral, but most of us have seen sculptures before, especially sculptors, and sculptures exist in a cultural context just as words do, not a vaccum, so the comparison here isn't quite on. And it's a contradiction to demand that artists reinvent ideas and criticize Stevie for not using Lost Horizon the way Hilton did.I really don't feel I criticized Stevie for not using "Shangri-La" the way Hilton did. Why don't you read between my lines the way you read between Stevie's? My criticism had a lot more to do with a use of "Shangri-La" that doesn't reflect this community's understanding of it.
Actually, I think that's kinda what you're doing, since I'm not demanding "reportorial or denotative accuracy," but think you were by saying Shangri-La is a malapropism or misnomer. All I'm pointing out, by saying Stevie is post-modernist, is that she is concerned primarily with re-invention, which requires imaginative freedom.The pomo label is trotted out to explain just about everything these days. Had Stevie actually used "Shangri-La" to write a concept album about a slaughterhouse, I'm sure she'd be applauded as a post-modernist visionary, madly reinventing our tired old signs & hopelessly naive binary opposites as she twirls off into the sunset of imaginative freedom. My own silly view is that meaning is bounded by certain constraints that exist by virtue of the fact that a language -- any language -- is a system; & that if you use "dog" to mean "cat," the community of readers or listeners is going to boggle & therefore your imaginative gesture will be a failed one (unless your readers find meaning in the very discrepancy of the gesture).
My post is all about re-invention, which poets do as well, and must, and about why Stevie's use of Shangri-La isn't inaccurate, just not resonant for you, because as I said, your point previously wasn't about reinvention but about misuse.The bottom line here is that you think that Stevie uses Shangri-La accurately, precisely & imaginatively, whereas I really don't. I think that she uses the phrase for a slightly more peripheral effect: sonority.
I think maybe it's a little pretentious to hold a rock and roll singer up to Fitzgerald and William James, don't you?I do, indeed. Who did that?
No one said she did, and I suppose the implication is that I came off as one, which isn't so. And I pointed it out because rather than making a case for what you thought was wrong, you and a couple of others went a tangent as though she'd done some wrong to the English language that was sweeping the nation, which also isn't so.You're certainly painting with as broad a brush as I ever did! "Some wrong to the English language that was sweeping the nation"?
Not picking a fight; just giving my opinion.Same here.

[glitter_fades]

Had Stevie actually used "Shangri-La" to write a concept album about a slaughterhouse, I'm sure she'd be applauded as a post-modernist visionary, madly reinventing our tired old signs & hopelessly naive binary opposites as she twirls off into the sunset of imaginative freedom.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SapphireSister]

So what if her use of it is completely off (and I happen to think she is right on)? So what if she wants to use Shangri La to talk about lamp shades or something completely unrelated? That's what ART is people...it's all up to interpretation. For me Stevie's music in not about literary accuracy or grammar or her use or misuse of the English Language, or whether or not she has used metaphors to accurately describe what she is going through. To me it's about emotion and what those words mean to me in relevance to my own life experiences and most of the time they just sound so damn beautiful! She is so creative and the images she evokes just blow my mind. Half the time I have no clue what she is talking about but I love that because she speaks of things and ideas I would never conceive of in my own little mind and that's a gift! I really try hard not to analyze her and her music to the point of a science project. We will never get the answers we are looking for anyway. I admit this is quite and interesting discussion and thanks for reading my rant. :p

[Serrart]

My reason for not considering Stevie a poet is that I don't see in her that precise, selective use of language to render connotative -- or suggestive -- accuracy. . . which is why I posted about the use of "trouble in Shangri-La" in the first place! What if she had named the song "Trouble in Paradise"? .

Well, in my culture you go in Paradise when you're dead or if you're Dante. Not saying that is an exact concept, but that's the common thing you would listen from most people I Think. Paradise is uncompromising, and who compromises with Paradise, is a fool, and deserves a movie with Nicolas Cage. While you can reach during your life Shangri La, it's before us, inside of us, if you're very lucky. It's Katmandu, the dream that comes true. It even rhymes. :D

Romy

[sparky]

So what if her use of it is completely off (and I happen to think she is right on)? So what if she wants to use Shangri La to talk about lamp shades or something completely unrelated? That's what ART is people...it's all up to interpretation. For me Stevie's music in not about literary accuracy or grammar or her use or misuse of the English Language, or whether or not she has used metaphors to accurately describe what she is going through. To me it's about emotion and what those words mean to me in relevance to my own life experiences and most of the time they just sound so damn beautiful!

That, in a nutshell, is what people disagree about. Her imagery may evoke an emotional response in some people, but not stand up to any accepted standards of critical thought. It's the difference between the true believers and those who look at things more objectively. I try to do both, but don't always succeed.



Half the time I have no clue what she is talking about

That is why she gets so much criticism on the level of content, accuracy, and structure...if those aspects of her work were more clear and concise, a lot more people would know what she was talking about. When it comes to judging the quality of art - communication of an idea being the goal - vaguery and misuse cloud the message and therefore lead many to believe that the art is inferior. Thank God for Stevie that she can inject so much emotion with her voice. That sometimes saves the day when her words come off as sloppy and misguided. Or just plain goofy.


I love that because she speaks of things and ideas I would never conceive of in my own little mind and that's a gift! I really try hard not to analyze her and her music to the point of a science project. We will never get the answers we are looking for anyway.

I suppose art is all about enjoyment these days. The thing is, there will always be arguments and disagreements about Stevie and her work. It is precisely the erratic and random quality of it that evokes the passionate exchanges.

[amber]

That, in a nutshell, is what people disagree about. Her imagery may evoke an emotional response in some people, but not stand up to any accepted standards of critical thought. It's the difference between the true believers and those who look at things more objectively. I try to do both, but don't always succeed.





That is why she gets so much criticism on the level of content, accuracy, and structure...if those aspects of her work were more clear and concise, a lot more people would know what she was talking about. When it comes to judging the quality of art - communication of an idea being the goal - vaguery and misuse cloud the message and therefore lead many to believe that the art is inferior. Thank God for Stevie that she can inject so much emotion with her voice. That sometimes saves the day when her words come off as sloppy and misguided. Or just plain goofy.




I suppose art is all about enjoyment these days. The thing is, there will always be arguments and disagreements about Stevie and her work. It is precisely the erratic and random quality of it that evokes the passionate exchanges.

Yeah, it's funny, I agree both with Saphiresister and with the other point of view. It's like - It could be way better, but I still like it (or not) when it's not. :shrug: But I guess it's people like me, kind of, who, like that other girl said, maybe make Stevie not try as hard. But, maybe not. Who knows if she's even capable of being different? And, to be fair to myself, the real reason I love Stevie so much is simply her voice quality. There are other things that factor in to songs I like, or don't like, but I willingly forgive a lot of things, simply because it is her singing it. :shrug: That doesn't mean I think it's great, or brilliantly lyricised, or produced. It only means I think her voice is brilliant, and it touches me in that special way, flaws and all.

[bushesandbriars]

I think she did. Here's her concept: It was written about the situation that he and many people that sort of make it to the height of their field. Whether you're a sports figure or a rock star or a doctor or a lawyer, indian chief, you know, candlemaker... whatever it is, when you kind of get to the top of your field and you are, like, really there. And how difficult it is for people to stay there. And how difficult it is for people to not go crazy.

To me, this has nothing to do with Shangri-La in any direct or extended sense. If this elicits the cultural idea of Shangri-La to you, then we're at an impasse.
You make this a zero sum game: either ideas can be stretched to the connotative breaking point, or they must remain "rigid & unevolved." I stand at neither end of that spectrum.
Oh, well I apologize for being unable to jot down my entire poetics right here & now for you, but I'm still going to stand for connotative precision in poetry & in language in its broader sense. Reinvention is unavoidable, obviously -- we all reinvent, all of us who use language. Every day, we employ words & phrases to describe what we're feeling & doing in ways that may not have been used in quite that way before (at least in our experience). Sometimes we "reinvent" & people don't know what the hell we're talking about. Doesn't it happen to you? It happens to me quite often. "Shangri-La" doesn't have to be Chinese or Hilton or anything else specifically in order for it to be widely understood in any community. It need only be common -- it needs to belong to that community if it is to be understood at all. If Stevie wants to use the concept of Shangri-La to describe a slaughterhouse she once visited, either it's going to be understood only in the most severely ironic way, or it's not going to be understood at all. It's not going to be precise; it's not going to be persuasive.

As far as I'm concerned, using Shangri-La to describe people who make it to the height of their field & then crash is imprecise. I am resolute -- my mind's made up. If you feel otherwise, go to town. That's okay. The song (or the concept of the whole album) is as much yours as it is mine.
I really don't feel I criticized Stevie for not using "Shangri-La" the way Hilton did. Why don't you read between my lines the way you read between Stevie's? My criticism had a lot more to do with a use of "Shangri-La" that doesn't reflect this community's understanding of it.
The pomo label is trotted out to explain just about everything these days. Had Stevie actually used "Shangri-La" to write a concept album about a slaughterhouse, I'm sure she'd be applauded as a post-modernist visionary, madly reinventing our tired old signs & hopelessly naive binary opposites as she twirls off into the sunset of imaginative freedom. My own silly view is that meaning is bounded by certain constraints that exist by virtue of the fact that a language -- any language -- is a system; & that if you use "dog" to mean "cat," the community of readers or listeners is going to boggle & therefore your imaginative gesture will be a failed one (unless your readers find meaning in the very discrepancy of the gesture).
The bottom line here is that you think that Stevie uses Shangri-La accurately, precisely & imaginatively, whereas I really don't. I think that she uses the phrase for a slightly more peripheral effect: sonority.
I do, indeed. Who did that?
You're certainly painting with as broad a brush as I ever did! "Some wrong to the English language that was sweeping the nation"?
Same here.

This whole tangent proves only that you got nothing that I said in either post, because your whole post relates not to what I actually said but to the fact that you took offense, so there's really no point in bothering with further debate, is there? If you read what I said and thought about it, rather than just reacting, you would realize I'm not saying she's a "post-modernist visionary," and you would realize that I'm not in love with this comparison--which is just you exaggerating, really--but that my point is that it's perfectly a legitimate use of Shangri-La, and that's all. There is such a thing as poetic license, which you didn't acknowledge in your first post, I came in, I made some comments because I thought they were missing. That's all. And your post-modernist bit comes off as downright bitchy, and I don't think it's worthy of you, but if that suits you then hey, knock yourself out. I'm just pointing out that post-modernism is, in one of its definitions, taking cultural symbols and re-using them, like any number of people do, some well, some not. I never said your point of view was silly, though you've certainly gone out of your way to exaggerate mine so it sounds absurd, and that's fine. This still isn't a personal war for me, just my opinion. And it's just your opinion as well. :shrug:

[SapphireSister]

This had been one of the most intelligent, thought provoking, and passionate discussions I've ever seen on this board. Kudos to all those involved! Even though we disagree we have one thing we can agree upon and that is our love and admiration of Ms. Nicks :)

[sarafield]

Yeah, it's funny, I agree both with Saphiresister and with the other point of view. It's like - It could be way better, but I still like it (or not) when it's not. :shrug: But I guess it's people like me, kind of, who, like that other girl said, maybe make Stevie not try as hard. But, maybe not. Who knows if she's even capable of being different? And, to be fair to myself, the real reason I love Stevie so much is simply her voice quality. There are other things that factor in to songs I like, or don't like, but I willingly forgive a lot of things, simply because it is her singing it. :shrug: That doesn't mean I think it's great, or brilliantly lyricised, or produced. It only means I think her voice is brilliant, and it touches me in that special way, flaws and all.


I completely agree with you and others who have said her voice/singing (and general charisma too) make up for so much. I wish she still had the range she used to, because I'd love to hear an album of covers by Stevie. Not songs written for her like on TISL, but existing songs she just really loved, sung in her special way. As she doesn't seem to be as much into songwriting as she used to be, she could do an album of "interpretations" a la Emmylou Harris. I like her voice as it is now, don't get me wrong, but more range would mean more songs she could sing.

[bushesandbriars]

That would be me.

I am quite fond of cliches, actually. They wouldn't be cliches if there wasn't some truth to them. But, it is plain old lazy to just repeat a cliche. I like to hear people do something with them. A few of my favorite writers twist cliches just a tiny bit and make them sound either novel or completely fresh. And usually it's country writers.

Rosanne Cash is genius at this. How tired is the saying "Distance makes the heart grow fonder" ? Rosanne's take on this ?

"Distance makes the heart start wondering
Absence makes the anger grow
The world may just be spinning through us
And separation lets it show."

Move you or not, Yeats or not, at least she does something with the old saying.

Even Clint Black, whose main claim to fame in my book is how he looks in a pair of Wranglers, has fun with cliches (actually I think he's a fine writer).

"Put yourself in my shoes
Walk a mile for me
I'll put myself in your shoes
Maybe then we'd see
That if you put yourself in my shoes
You'd have some sympathy
And if I could only put myself in your shoes
I'd walk right back to me."

It's not serious. It's cute. Doesn't have to be earth shattering. Just do something, anything with your cliche. Please !

I hear Clint, and snicker. I smirk. I hear Rosanne, then think of "Ooooh it's just like a river, Ooooh it's never ending", and I want to gouge my eyes out with a fondue fork. And I don't even own a fondue fork.

Addendum : The fine Mrs. Leventhal is also responsible for the following brilliant turn:
"The tables are turning, the tempo slows down
And we're getting off this misery go round."

Ahh, Misery Go Round. Now that is delicious. So good I co-opted it and use it at opportune moments.


Sparky, I just wanted to say I'm not trying to blow you off; I just wanted to consider what you had to say without letting my response to you overlap into my respond to David.

Anyway, I read your posts, and you've made good points o'plenty in both of them. Rosanne Cash--Rules of Travel is brilliant in particular, methinks. Some of the things you refer to are kind of like word games or puns, which are a form of reinvention. And one that Stevie isn't especially adept at, but which country writers are--Dolly Parton's early songs use a lot of puns and word associations. Sheryl Crow uses them a lot, too--I remember reading a review where the writer said something to the effect that she was a clever songwriter, and far too slick, and that her songs were all technique and no soul, which really annoyed me.

I don't really qualify as a true believer, either--I don't have much of an opinion of Stevie herself. I just like her work, which is far from unflawed, and I'm only interested in analyzing Stevie insofar as it relates to what she writes. I tend to be pretty passionate about creativity as a whole, and I think it's reductive when people are like, "Oh, it's all Lindsey," as reductive as when people claim the Brontes' stuff was all written by Branwell, or that Emily and Charlotte must have been having secret love affairs with now-unknown men to write that well about love. (I'm not comparing Stevie to the Brontes, just the situations.) It dismisses, in my opinion, what creativity is, because it's about the common factor of being human, and the connection we can have, which is empathy. (And I am not trying to pick a fight with the people who like thinking her songs are about Lindsey, just offer a different perspective.)

Lots of people, especially Romy and SapphireSister have made great points, too. SapphireSister is especially dead-on when she says art is about emotion ultimately, because I think it is, too. And Stevie's one of the most naturally gifted singers I've heard--she's a great phraser, great with emotion, and she can tear into a vocal or performance with a lot of emotion and heart. I don't think she's necessarily always a great songwriter, either--I find songs like "Jane" just really sentimental and sloppy, and I don't much like it when she gets on a tangent about "giving things up" and dramatizes that. I also think her gift is more in evoking and creating images in a mixed way--the images may not always stand up to really critical analysis, but I do that enough with other forms of art, so music doesn't always have to stand up to criticism to have value for me. I tend to believe songwriters have more latitude in that direction than poets do--music is far more visceral than intellectual, whereas poetry, except the variety that just plays with sound, like making up words the way Lewis Carroll did, really should be a balance. Stevie works a bit in pastiche, I think, as much as a songwriter can--she mixes her life and writers she likes and phrases and paintings. Margaret Atwood once compared writers to jackdaws who steal the shiny bits for their own disorderly nests, and I think that's Stevie to a T, and pretty much every other writer, too. That's just my perspective, obviously.

Anyway, thanks for your posts. They were carefully considered and thought-provoking. And your Clint Black bit cracked me up. (My cheesy bit of country-inflected beefcake is Keith Urban. Sad, I know. Someone told me he was Australian the other day. Blew my mind.)