FM Done

[dudden22]

I was just at Stevie Nicks info and saw that someone who spoke to Chris Nicks said fm is done forever and that stevie would never tour with them again. What do you think is going on? :shrug:

http://www.stevie-nicks.info/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&catid=3&id=48#48

[cliffdweller]

I was just at Stevie Nicks info and saw that someone who spoke to Chris Nicks said fm is done forever and that stevie would never tour with them again.

If this proves to be true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Tango]

I was just at Stevie Nicks info and saw that someone who spoke to Chris Nicks said fm is done forever and that stevie would never tour with them again. What do you think is going on? :shrug:

http://www.stevie-nicks.info/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&catid=3&id=48#48

I think there's a BIG difference between Stevie being done with Fleetwood Mac and Fleetwood Mac being "done." Stevie's presence in Fleetwood Mac might turn some fans away from the band, but I don't think that's a universal by any means. They were there before she came; they'll be there after she's gone. :shrug: Further, it would be nice to officially read/hear anything from the actual principles involved.

[LiquidBlue5000]

I was just at Stevie Nicks info and saw that someone who spoke to Chris Nicks said fm is done forever and that stevie would never tour with them again. What do you think is going on? :shrug:

http://www.stevie-nicks.info/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&catid=3&id=48#48

wtf??? They had such a successful tour and "seemed" to all be getting along so well... why on Earth would they call it quits for good?? this makes no sense to me at all... didn't Mick go see Stevie in Vegas?? Wasn't there rumours of Lindsey being there as well??? If there is no conflict there and they are all getting along, then where is this coming from? :confused:

[strandinthewind]

Well, that person also says Chris told them in Sept. that La Nicks is recording a solo record, which Lori recently pretty much denied in her Q&A that La Nicks is doing right now.

Who knows, but Stevie certainly has not given up on FM in her public comments a la the Ladd interview.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Well, that person also says Chris told them in Sept. that La Nicks is recording a solo record, which Lori recently pretty much denied in her Q&A that La Nicks is doing right now.

Who knows, but Stevie certainly has not given up on FM in her public comments a la the Ladd interview.

ahhhh, yes, the infamous Ladd interview, which was packed with.. ummm.. "fabrications".. :rolleyes:

[SuzeQuze]

wtf??? They had such a successful tour and "seemed" to all be getting along so well... why on Earth would they call it quits for good?? this makes no sense to me at all... didn't Mick go see Stevie in Vegas?? Wasn't there rumours of Lindsey being there as well??? If there is no conflict there and they are all getting along, then where is this coming from? :confused:

Even if they say they're done I won't believe them. They say lots of things.

[strandinthewind]

ahhhh, yes, the infamous Ladd interview, which was packed with.. ummm.. "fabrications".. :rolleyes:


Balh Blah Blah

I am certainly am glad she did not as promised:

1. use in any way that cursed video screen

2. haul out any songs she had not done in a decade or more

3. haul out any new outfits, or

4. perform as if it were 1981.

I was all just a PACK OF LIES aimed at selling tickets

:p :p :p :p :p

Of course there were no boas :angel:

[Kelly]

I would not buy a thing Chris says. It is also pretty ballsy to speak for his sister. He also told people that EFO was about Bill Clinton! :eek:

I do think big changes are happening with Stevie in terms of her "career" but I have hope for a final FM tour. Not an album...but perhaps a small goodbye tour.

Stevie did not lie in the Ladd interview..she embellished but I still believe some of the things she talked about she intended to do. Unfortunately things did not work out. (or fortunately for me cause I hate TTM and boas)

[strandinthewind]

I would not buy a thing Chris says. It is also pretty ballsy to speak for his sister. He also told people that EFO was about Bill Clinton! :eek:


I am glad you know better than he does - you were there right? :wavey: :wavey:

And I believe the DR doc. verified the working title was Monica :wavey:

[LiquidBlue5000]

I would not buy a thing Chris says. It is also pretty ballsy to speak for his sister. He also told people that EFO was about Bill Clinton! :eek:


They do look awfully close in that "leaving the White House" concert pic from 2001 ;)

[johnny4406]

EFO about the Clinton scandal....very interesting. This ruins everything. I thought it was about the Stevie-Lindsey-Kristen love triangle that we fans love to create. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

EFO about the Clinton scandal....very interesting. This ruins everything. I thought it was about the Stevie-Lindsey-Kristen love triangle that we fans love to create. :distress:


Well, it probably is. The working title for EFO was Monica. It could be that La Nicks thought that was funny and Monica and Bill have nothing to do with the song.

[no_spoken_word]

I am glad you know better than he does - you were there right? :wavey: :wavey:

And I believe the DR doc. verified the working title was Monica :wavey:

I've watched that thing a million times and never noticed that, where do they say the title is "Monica"?

[strandinthewind]

I've watched that thing a million times and never noticed that, where do they say the title is "Monica"?


When she and LB are arguing over who is going to mix the record. La Nicks says "well I lost a day to work on MONICA" - many doubted she said this and called me crazy, but if you turn on the closed caption, you will indeed see she ways "Monica" - why she says it - well, that is all speculation - but she does say Monica and it clearly is in reference to the song now called EFO.

[dissention]

When she and LB are arguing over who is going to mix the record. La Nicks says "well I lost a day to work on MONICA" - many doubted she said this and called me crazy, but if you turn on the closed caption, you will indeed see she ways "Monica" - why she says it - well, that is all speculation - but she does say Monica and it clearly is in reference to the song now called EFO.

There's no indication that they're referring to what we now know as Everybody Finds Out.

[ELIUD]

I'm sure she was talking about a lesbian love doll/robot she was building in her room. If you look closely there's a DeWalt drill and an erector set behind the spirit catcher.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I'm sure she was talking about a lesbian love doll/robot she was building in her room. If you look closely there's a DeWalt drill and an erector set behind the spirit catcher.

Have I told you lately that I love you?? :lol: :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

There's no indication that they're referring to what we now know as Everybody Finds Out.


Well, yes there is. They are mixing the song EFO at that time and La Nicks refers to it as Monica. Thus, the connection - I mean what else could she be referring to? But, if you want to think she is talking about something else - who am I to keep you down.

[strandinthewind]

I'm sure she was talking about a lesbian love doll/robot she was building in her room. If you look closely there's a DeWalt drill and an erector set behind the spirit catcher.

they are sitting on the Futon mext to the Birkenstocks and the enpty beer cans :eek:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[skcin]

When she and LB are arguing over who is going to mix the record. La Nicks says "well I lost a day to work on MONICA" - many doubted she said this and called me crazy, but if you turn on the closed caption, you will indeed see she ways "Monica" - why she says it - well, that is all speculation - but she does say Monica and it clearly is in reference to the song now called EFO.

Yeah, but the closed caption for SOTM yell from the Mirage 1982 vid says "earoishdjfvhd&^&$(JIN{}MHG@#trvuiw" when it's obvious that Stevie said "khbywwit%$$^^ljiterj_+^#@#%&^*fhdifseiotg!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

So, you know, you have to take it with a grain of salt. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, but the closed caption for SOTM yell from the Mirage 1982 vid says "earoishdjfvhd&^&$(JIN{}MHG@#trvuiw" when it's obvious that Stevie said "khbywwit%$$^^ljiterj_+^#@#%&^*fhdifseiotg!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

So, you know, you have to take it with a grain of salt. :shrug:

:laugh:

Well, the largest distinction between the two for me is - in the Mirage video, not only is the caption a phonetic capture of her frenetic behaviour, but she punctuates it with the all to fab. panty revealing, listing spin at the end :cool:

[cliffdweller]

Even if they say they're done I won't believe them. They say lots of things.

True...but would it really surprise you if they did call it quits? I mean, what do they have left to do? They've done it all, and they really don't need each other anymore. One of the only reasons the SYW album and tour ever saw the light of day is because Lindsey was told by the lable that his solo material would not be released unless it was a Fleetwood Mac venture. That was the impetus for this whole "getting back together" stuff. And we all know how much Mick loves $$$....and I'm sure the other band members didn't mind it too much either. But now, after the SYW album and mammoth world tour...what's the incentive to do it all over again? They're all getting up there in years---I can't imagine them having the energy to do that again. And I really get the sense that Lindsey and Stevie could do without each other, when they work together it's like oil and water. I'm not one of those who has romantic notions about those two...I really think they have a difficult time (to this day) working together and seeing eye to eye on projects (and it's not because of their romantic past anymore either) they just DO NOT play well together. DR is a perfect example of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Fleetwood Mac, and I enjoyed every show I went to in the last couple years, I don't necessarily want them to call it quits, but I believe that they've done everything they want to do together. I don't think the two songwriters have a need or want to work with one another again. I could be completely off base here...but this is the feeling I get.

[seeker007nmss]

True...but would it really surprise you if they did call it quits? I mean, what do they have left to do? .


They will tour the next time John and/or Mick needs money. :nod:

[Livia]

True...but would it really surprise you if they did call it quits? I mean, what do they have left to do? They've done it all, and they really don't need each other anymore. One of the only reasons the SYW album and tour ever saw the light of day is because Lindsey was told by the lable that his solo material would not be released unless it was a Fleetwood Mac venture. That was the impetus for this whole "getting back together" stuff. And we all know how much Mick loves $$$....and I'm sure the other band members didn't mind it too much either. But now, after the SYW album and mammoth world tour...what's the incentive to do it all over again? They're all getting up there in years---I can't imagine them having the energy to do that again. And I really get the sense that Lindsey and Stevie could do without each other, when they work together it's like oil and water. I'm not one of those who has romantic notions about those two...I really think they have a difficult time (to this day) working together and seeing eye to eye on projects (and it's not because of their romantic past anymore either) they just DO NOT play well together. DR is a perfect example of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Fleetwood Mac, and I enjoyed every show I went to in the last couple years, I don't necessarily want them to call it quits, but I believe that they've done everything they want to do together. I don't think the two songwriters have a need or want to work with one another again. I could be completely off base here...but this is the feeling I get.

I second that emotion! :wavey:

[LiquidBlue5000]

True...but would it really surprise you if they did call it quits? I mean, what do they have left to do? They've done it all, and they really don't need each other anymore. One of the only reasons the SYW album and tour ever saw the light of day is because Lindsey was told by the lable that his solo material would not be released unless it was a Fleetwood Mac venture. That was the impetus for this whole "getting back together" stuff. And we all know how much Mick loves $$$....and I'm sure the other band members didn't mind it too much either. But now, after the SYW album and mammoth world tour...what's the incentive to do it all over again? They're all getting up there in years---I can't imagine them having the energy to do that again. And I really get the sense that Lindsey and Stevie could do without each other, when they work together it's like oil and water. I'm not one of those who has romantic notions about those two...I really think they have a difficult time (to this day) working together and seeing eye to eye on projects (and it's not because of their romantic past anymore either) they just DO NOT play well together. DR is a perfect example of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Fleetwood Mac, and I enjoyed every show I went to in the last couple years, I don't necessarily want them to call it quits, but I believe that they've done everything they want to do together. I don't think the two songwriters have a need or want to work with one another again. I could be completely off base here...but this is the feeling I get.


Well, if that's true, then Ms. Nicks better get herself back into the studio ASAP or her label will drop her and no one will want to pick her up... she'll end up a Vegas act much sooner than later and i don't think anyone wants that.. i don't...

[SuzeQuze]

True...but would it really surprise you if they did call it quits? I mean, what do they have left to do? They've done it all, and they really don't need each other anymore. One of the only reasons the SYW album and tour ever saw the light of day is because Lindsey was told by the lable that his solo material would not be released unless it was a Fleetwood Mac venture. That was the impetus for this whole "getting back together" stuff. And we all know how much Mick loves $$$....and I'm sure the other band members didn't mind it too much either. But now, after the SYW album and mammoth world tour...what's the incentive to do it all over again? They're all getting up there in years---I can't imagine them having the energy to do that again. And I really get the sense that Lindsey and Stevie could do without each other, when they work together it's like oil and water. I'm not one of those who has romantic notions about those two...I really think they have a difficult time (to this day) working together and seeing eye to eye on projects (and it's not because of their romantic past anymore either) they just DO NOT play well together. DR is a perfect example of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Fleetwood Mac, and I enjoyed every show I went to in the last couple years, I don't necessarily want them to call it quits, but I believe that they've done everything they want to do together. I don't think the two songwriters have a need or want to work with one another again. I could be completely off base here...but this is the feeling I get.

Yes, it would really surprise me if FM never tours or does an album again. If this happens I will eat chop suey including the water chestnuts (I HATE them). :lol:

[Janet]

I can't believe anyone would believe this. I haven't heard anything but good things from the members and I am sure they will tour again.

Look at the Stones, they are all in their 60's doing this, I'm sure FM will be too. It's a great retirement fund and I think they actually enjoy it too!

[Rickypt]

I don't necessarily think we should believe whatever Chris Nicks says, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Stevie is done with FM. In the 5 SYW shows I went to, she never looked very happy at all. One of those shows I was in the front row and could really see her facial expressions. Her smile was never more than pursed lips. Contrast that with the huge smiles we've seen in the Vegas pix.

I think any "chemistry" between Stevie and Lindsey on that tour was canned. Otherwise there would have been *some* spontaneous moments. I saw nothing different between them in the 5 shows, plus the Boston DVD.

I think Stevie much prefers the solo thing. She isn't getting any older and probably is thinking why do the FM thing again--why share an album with other people, why argue over placement of songs on the album, why deal with Lindsey lovers in the front row when she can have one filled her own worshippers, etc. I don't blame her.

[cliffdweller]

Look at the Stones, they are all in their 60's doing this

Yeah, and they seriously need to pack it in. I would hate for Fleetwood Mac to go out like that. Not that the Stones are "going out" any time soon, unfortunately.

[cliffdweller]

I don't necessarily think we should believe whatever Chris Nicks says, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Stevie is done with FM.

Stevie's not the only one. I'm sure Lindsey had to eat so much crow this last time around that he's way over-stuffed. He's done too. He's been done since 1987.

[Kelly]

I am glad you know better than he does - you were there right? :wavey: :wavey:

And I believe the DR doc. verified the working title was Monica :wavey:


Sweetheart..go check out the copywrite website. Hold On I will go get it. The title given to said song that later became EFO was "in the darkness". Or do you have proof that the working title was Monica?? I heard her say it but that doesnt prove your working title schpeal. :nod:

[glitter_fades]

Yeah, but the closed caption for SOTM yell from the Mirage 1982 vid says "earoishdjfvhd&^&$(JIN{}MHG@#trvuiw" when it's obvious that Stevie said "khbywwit%$$^^ljiterj_+^#@#%&^*fhdifseiotg!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

So, you know, you have to take it with a grain of salt. :shrug:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[glitter_fades]

I really get the sense that Lindsey and Stevie could do without each other, when they work together it's like oil and water.

...I really think they have a difficult time (to this day) working together and seeing eye to eye on projects (and it's not because of their romantic past anymore either) they just DO NOT play well together.

AMEN! :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Sweetheart..go check out the copywrite website. Hold On I will go get it. The title given to said song that later became EFO was "in the darkness". Or do you have proof that the working title was Monica?? I heard her say it but that doesnt prove your working title schpeal. :nod:


Fine - she never said it was about Monica and I and the DR CC are just wrong as is the fact that that was the song they were working on - just all wrong wrong wrong :rolleyes:

On edit - I am not saying the song is about Bill and Monica - I am saying it was the working title, which I know I know - the CSF cannot abide that it has anything whatsoever at all to do with anything but her sneaking around with LB. Well, if that is so, why did she explicitly refer to it as "Monica?" Personally, I think she was being funny.

[Kelly]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Registration Number: PA-1-224-390
Title: Everybody finds out.
Note: Enhanced CD. Performed by aFleetwood Mac.
In: Say you will. mReprise 48394-2, c2003. Compact disc
Claimant: Welsh Witch Music, Future Furniture Music
Created: 1999

Published: 15Apr03

Registered: 20Apr04

Title on © Application: In the darkness.
Author on © Application: words & music: Stevie Nicks, Rick Nowels.
Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2000, PAu 2-509-624.
Special Codes: 3/M/L

Notice the "In the Darkness" registered in 1999. So, Monica is Jason's working title for EFO! :angel:

[strandinthewind]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Registration Number: PA-1-224-390
Title: Everybody finds out.
Note: Enhanced CD. Performed by aFleetwood Mac.
In: Say you will. mReprise 48394-2, c2003. Compact disc
Claimant: Welsh Witch Music, Future Furniture Music
Created: 1999

Published: 15Apr03

Registered: 20Apr04

Title on © Application: In the darkness.
Author on © Application: words & music: Stevie Nicks, Rick Nowels.
Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2000, PAu 2-509-624.
Special Codes: 3/M/L

Notice the "In the Darkness" registered in 1999. So, Monica is Jason's working title for EFO! :angel:

No, it was Stevie's words not mine. I mean I did not just up and say one day "Hey - this song was called Monica" now did I.

and another thing, that was the registered title before she worked on it with FM, where it took on a working title and indeed another name. So, that first name apparently was and is irrelevant. Nice try though :wavey:

[Kelly]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Registration Number: PAu-2-509-624
Title: In the darkness.
Description: Sound cassette & lyrics sheets.
Claimant: Welsh Witch Music, Future Furniture Music
Created: 1999

Registered: 15Jun00

Author on © Application: words: acStevie Nicks; music: Rick Nowels.
Special Codes: 3/M


Here is the old one before it was resubmitted by the Mac as, ahem,
Everybody Finds Out.

[Kelly]

:thumbsup: No, it was Stevie's words not mine. I mean I did not just up and say one day "Hey - this song was called Monica" now did I.

and another thing, that was the registered title before she worked on it with FM, where it took on a working title and indeed another name. So, that first name apparently was and is irrelevant. Nice try though :wavey:

I posted the other one before it was used by FM and the name is In the Darkness...clearly it says that. No Monica there. Nope.

Oh and it was Stevie's words? You heard her say the working title for EFO and ITD was Monica? Cause I didnt hear that on the doc. I heard her say Monica but you honestly have no idea why she said it. You theorize and assume. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

:thumbsup:

I posted the other one before it was used by FM and the name is In the Darkness...clearly it says that. No Monica there. Nope.

Oh and it was Stevie's words? You heard her say the working title for EFO and ITD was Monica? Cause I didnt hear that on the doc. I heard her say Monica but you honestly have no idea why she said it. You theorize and assume. :wavey:


Nope - you cannot see the light - you live "in the darkness" :wavey:

Again, you win, everyone pay attention - I recant that La Nicks ever uttered the word "Monica" at all in the SYW sessions. The DR doc. is wrong and misleading. AND - no one should assume that the song they are working on at the time she says the word "Monica" (which she really did not say as noted above) is EFO :rolleyes:

Come on - you are smarter than that :laugh:

[thepoetinmyhear]

Nope - you cannot see the light - you live "in the darkness" :wavey:

Again, you win, everyone pay attention - I recant that La Nicks ever uttered the word "Monica" at all in the SYW sessions. The DR doc. is wrong and misleading. AND - no one should assume that the song they are working on at the time she says the word "Monica" (which she really did not say as noted above) is EFO :rolleyes:

Come on - you are smarter than that :laugh:

So are you Strand, surely you've heard of editing. The simple fact is that your proof is no where near rock solid. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? maybe. Are you going to be able to convince people with just a .8 second utterance of the word Monica on a documentary culled from over 500 hours of footage? I doubt it.

[strandinthewind]

So are you Strand, surely you've heard of editing. The simple fact is that your proof is no where near rock solid. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? maybe. Are you going to be able to convince people with just a .8 second utterance of the word Monica on a documentary culled from over 500 hours of footage? I doubt it.


Again, I am done with this. I recant - you all win. That doc. never has the word Monica in it at all - ever.

[thepoetinmyhear]

Again, I am done with this. I recant - you all win. That doc. never has the word Monica in it at all - ever.

Well that's good to hear because I love to get the last word in. :laugh:

No one is claiming that the word monica doesn't appear in the doc. No one.

To concede a point by also adding a clear false statement is not really conceding. C'mon you're smarter than that.

The point I was making (after your insincere concession, you can't concede and also put smilies in and end your consession with a condescending remark) was that neither side can be 100% sure of their position so it seems foolish to argue as if you knew for a fact either way.

[SteveMacD]

I posted this last week over on the FM board, but it seems to me that people have been plotting the death of Fleetwood Mac pretty much since Peter Green quit.

It was all over after Green quit.
It was all over after Jeremy quit.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Bare Trees" tour.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Mystery To Me" tour.
It was all over after the "Fake Mac" disaster.
It was all over after Bob quit.
It was all over after Chris & John divorced and Stevie & Lindsey split.
It was all over after "Tusk" didn't do as well as hoped.
It was all over after they did solo albums.
It was all over after Lindsey quit.
It was all over after Christine & Stevie decided to no longer tour with FM.
It was all over after Stevie quit.
It was all over after Mick split up the "Time" band.
It was all over after Christine retired.

Fleetwood Mac: It's been all over since 1970!

[Serrart]

Well, I hear Monica too in the doc, and don't really know why, but I think she was talking about EFO. Said that, I would never believe she wrote such a song about Clinton-Lewinsky scandal. I think she calls it 'Monica' as an inside joke among them.

About FM done, I don't think it's true, Chris Nicks isn't on my list of the most reliable sources, we'll see. :shrug:

Romy

[dudden22]

It was all over after the "Fake Mac" disaster.


What was the "Fake Mac" disaster??

[LilyRose]

I'm saying Stevie's saying "my cut". That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :nod:

Susie

[ReFleetwoodMac]

I posted this last week over on the FM board, but it seems to me that people have been plotting the death of Fleetwood Mac pretty much since Peter Green quit.

It was all over after Green quit.
It was all over after Jeremy quit.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Bare Trees" tour.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Mystery To Me" tour.
It was all over after the "Fake Mac" disaster.
It was all over after Bob quit.
It was all over after Chris & John divorced and Stevie & Lindsey split.
It was all over after "Tusk" didn't do as well as hoped.
It was all over after they did solo albums.
It was all over after Lindsey quit.
It was all over after Christine & Stevie decided to no longer tour with FM.
It was all over after Stevie quit.
It was all over after Mick split up the "Time" band.
It was all over after Christine retired.

Fleetwood Mac: It's been all over since 1970!

Maybe Sheryl Crow will officially replace Stevie Nicks and in five or ten years, Lindsey will leave, and they'll find someone to replace him, and so on. Soon, we'll have a fresh, young, all-star lineup Fleetwood Mac that will eventually take over the world and become the "definitive lineup" that everyone associates with the name Fleetwood Mac. This new super Fleetwood Mac will make current Fleetwood Mac look like old Fleetwood Mac compared to current Fleetwood Mac in the eyes of current Fleetwood Mac fans, and current Fleetwood Mac fans will resent the new super Fleetwood Mac like fans of old Fleetwood Mac now resent current Fleetwood Mac.

[SteveMacD]

What was the "Fake Mac" disaster??
Fleetwood Mac cancelled the "Mystery to Me" tour after Mick found out that Bob Weston had an affair with Jenny Fleetwood. This was the third tour in about three years that saw a Mac guitarist either quit or be fired mid-tour, and the second time they had to actually cancell the tour.

Their manager, Cliff Davis, snapped. So, he put together a band made up mostly of Danny Kirwan's backing band. He called the band Fleetwood Mac. Only, Mick, John, Christine, and Bob Welch weren't involved.

Anway, there was a huge legal battle, but Warner Bros. decided to error on the side of the real Fleetwood Mac, which is how "Heroes Are Hard To Find" came about, and which is why Mick was the manager of the band from 1974-1980.

[SteveMacD]

Maybe Sheryl Crow will officially replace Stevie Nicks and in five or ten years, Lindsey will leave, and they'll find someone to replace him, and so on. Soon, we'll have a fresh, young, all-star lineup Fleetwood Mac that will eventually take over the world and become the "definitive lineup" that everyone associates with the name Fleetwood Mac. This new super Fleetwood Mac will make current Fleetwood Mac look like old Fleetwood Mac compared to current Fleetwood Mac in the eyes of current Fleetwood Mac fans, and current Fleetwood Mac fans will resent the new super Fleetwood Mac like fans of old Fleetwood Mac now resent current Fleetwood Mac.
I wouldn't go THAT far, but it seems to me people, including members of Fleetwood Mac, have said that it's "all over" only to be proven wrong. Lindsey said that he couldn't see himself ever working with Fleetwood Mac again in 1987. Stevie said in 1989 that she would never, ever work with Lindsey ever again. Stevie and Christine said they would never tour again with Fleetwood Mac in 1990. Stevie said she would never work with Mick Fleetwood ever again in 1991. Mick said that Fleetwood Mac was all but over in 1992, and that it WAS over in 1996. And yet they keep coming back! I'm sorry, but in 18 years of fandom, I've heard the Mac was done one too many times. Save for one comment by Don Henley and a comment supposedly made by Chris Nicks, I've not heard anything to indicate that the Mac is done.

[gldstwmn]

They will tour the next time John and/or Mick needs money. :nod:

John was pretty conservative with his money by all accounts. I doubt he needs it.

[Rickypt]

SteveMacD, you are right of course, but now that we're done arguing over the Vegas setlist and there's still a couple of weeks until we can argue over the Philly setlist, there's really not much else to talk about.

[lagringader&r]

I don't know what to think about them being done or not being done. So far, Henley and Chris Nicks have said it. I think they may not ever record another cd, but maybe they could tour again, like the Eagles are (speaking of the devil :laugh: ) They don't have to have anything to promote to tour as an "oldies band". County fairs? :shocked: Please Gawd no! Either that or they had a falling out and are done for good? This is not making me happy!

Btw, I also heard Monica and thought she was referring to EFO too. Maybe it was their pet name for EFO. The Monica/Clinton thing was funny to talk about back then and even though I don't think EFO is really about Clinton and Monica (but who knows!), the lyrics really do fit.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Ok I have always thought MONICA was one of Stevie's attorney's...since they were talking about a deal memo that had to be worked out with the attorney's over Chris Lord Alge mixing it...

"I lost tomorrow to Monica" -- I have always assumed was an attorney

Chris

[all the same]

The thing I love about Fleetwood Mac is how dramatic they all are! Mick and John basically have to give Stevie and Lindsey hand jobs to come back! But eventually they come back! So, I really don't think Fleetwood Mac is done. I think if Mick said "Stevie, c'mon! Steeeeviiiieeee! C'MON!!!" she would go back. She'd be all like "Weeeeeeeeeelllllll... okay!"

[Regina]

I do not picture even Stevie romanticizing Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's relationship to that extent. If it is about them--I don't wanna know! Eee--yuck.

The FM thing? Still don't believe it. I absolutely believe Mick and Lindsey were there in Vegas supporting her--so, who is she mad at? John??? Impossible.

And if it's a just business thing--they'll get over it. They've gotten over much, much worse. (But I still don't believe it anyway. Again, I'm in the planning stages of how many shows I can do for FM2006. But, I'd settle for BuckinghamNicks 2006:-)

[LiquidBlue5000]

The thing I love about Fleetwood Mac is how dramatic they all are! Mick and John basically have to give Stevie and Lindsey hand jobs to come back! But eventually they come back! So, I really don't think Fleetwood Mac is done. I think if Mick said "Stevie, c'mon! Steeeeviiiieeee! C'MON!!!" she would go back. She'd be all like "Weeeeeeeeeelllllll... okay!"

but she'd scream it like this: WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL!!!!!! :p

[Johnny Stew]

This new super Fleetwood Mac will make current Fleetwood Mac look like old Fleetwood Mac compared to current Fleetwood Mac in the eyes of current Fleetwood Mac fans....Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. :laugh: :xoxo:

[seeker007nmss]

John was pretty conservative with his money by all accounts. I doubt he needs it.

Maybe I should clarify: Mick needs the money - John needs a bigger boat! :)

[Johnny Stew]

No, it was Stevie's words not mine. I mean I did not just up and say one day "Hey - this song was called Monica" now did I.I'm going to try to come to Jason's aid here.

I had an advanced copy of 'Destiny Rules,' thanks to a good friend, but I wasn't able to talk about it, so I kept my mouth shut.
Watched it several times when I got it, of course, but could never figure out exactly what Stevie was saying during the fight about mixing her song.

Then Jason tells me in a PM one night, "you know, I talked to Chris Nicks and he told me 'Everybody Finds Out' was written about Monica Lewinsky and her affair with Bill Clinton.'"

A little lightbulb went off in my head, but, again, I couldn't say anything about the advanced copy... so I didn't tell Jason.
The next day, I popped the tape in, and, sure enough, Stevie's saying, "I lost a day to mix 'Monica'" -- and in the doc it certainly looks like she was referring to the song that we know as "Everybody Finds Out."

I know all about the alternate title, etc., etc., but Jason certainly didn't fabricate the story, as he told me about his exchange with Chris Nicks before the doc aired, and before he knew that I had seen it.

[Livia]

I'm going to try to come to Jason's aid here.

I had an advanced copy of 'Destiny Rules,' thanks to a good friend, but I wasn't able to talk about it, so I kept my mouth shut.
Watched it several times when I got it, of course, but could never figure out exactly what Stevie was saying during the fight about mixing her song.

Then Jason tells me in a PM one night, "you know, I talked to Chris Nicks and he told me 'Everybody Finds Out' was written about Monica Lewinsky and her affair with Bill Clinton.'"

A little lightbulb went off in my head, but, again, I couldn't say anything about the advanced copy... so I didn't tell Jason.
The next day, I popped the tape in, and, sure enough, Stevie's saying, "I lost a day to mix 'Monica'" -- and in the doc it certainly looks like she was referring to the song that we know as "Everybody Finds Out."

I know all about the alternate title, etc., etc., but Jason certainly didn't fabricate the story, as he told me about his exchange with Chris Nicks before the doc aired, and before he knew that I had seen it.

Yup!

:p Maybe the working title for TISL was "OJ." :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

:p Maybe the working title for TISL was "OJ." :laugh:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

+250

[dissention]

I'm going to try to come to Jason's aid here.

I had an advanced copy of 'Destiny Rules,' thanks to a good friend, but I wasn't able to talk about it, so I kept my mouth shut.
Watched it several times when I got it, of course, but could never figure out exactly what Stevie was saying during the fight about mixing her song.

Then Jason tells me in a PM one night, "you know, I talked to Chris Nicks and he told me 'Everybody Finds Out' was written about Monica Lewinsky and her affair with Bill Clinton.'"

A little lightbulb went off in my head, but, again, I couldn't say anything about the advanced copy... so I didn't tell Jason.
The next day, I popped the tape in, and, sure enough, Stevie's saying, "I lost a day to mix 'Monica'" -- and in the doc it certainly looks like she was referring to the song that we know as "Everybody Finds Out."

I know all about the alternate title, etc., etc., but Jason certainly didn't fabricate the story, as he told me about his exchange with Chris Nicks before the doc aired, and before he knew that I had seen it.

I could be standing out in the rain with Christopher Nicks and if he told me it was raining, I'd go ask two other people.

[Livia]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

+250

And maybe the working title of Cryin' In the Night was "Leslie." :laugh:

[lagringader&r]

Dare I say, I'm counting 3 liars now. Cory, Stevie and Chris. Hmm.. :shocked:

[Johnny Stew]

I could be standing out in the rain with Christopher Nicks and if he told me it was raining, I'd go ask two other people.But, dissy, you'd argue that the sky isn't really blue, if someone else said it was. :laugh:

All I'm trying to say is that the title "Monica" came from somewhere, and it wasn't Jason's imagination or Chris Nicks just feeding him some line of bullshit. Stevie herself refers to some song as "Monica," and the doc sure makes it look like she's referring to "Everybody Finds Out."

My advice to Jason is to never again discuss any tidbits you might hear, because if it doesn't offer proof that a song was written about a clandestine affair with Lindsey, no one's gonna believe you anyway. ;)

[lagringader&r]

Dare I say, I'm counting 3 liars now. Cory, Stevie and Chris. Hmm.. :shocked:

I'm quoting myself :laugh: I meant that really sarcastically. I don't think any of them have been lying. Just wanted to clear that up in case of confusion. :rolleyes:

[chiliD]

I posted this last week over on the FM board, but it seems to me that people have been plotting the death of Fleetwood Mac pretty much since Peter Green quit.

It was all over after Green quit.
It was all over after Jeremy quit.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Bare Trees" tour.
It was all over after they cancelled the "Mystery To Me" tour.
It was all over after the "Fake Mac" disaster.
It was all over after Bob quit.
It was all over after Chris & John divorced and Stevie & Lindsey split.
It was all over after "Tusk" didn't do as well as hoped.
It was all over after they did solo albums.
It was all over after Lindsey quit.
It was all over after Christine & Stevie decided to no longer tour with FM.
It was all over after Stevie quit.
It was all over after Mick split up the "Time" band.
It was all over after Christine retired.

Fleetwood Mac: It's been all over since 1970!

And, so f**ing what if Stevie AND Lindsey call it quits from Fleetwood Mac (they've been there done that already and in both of their cases way too late for my tastes, they both should've just stayed away after the end of the Tusk tour.), Mick & John can find either someone new or some other former members (Peter? Jeremy? Bob Welch? Christine?) to be Fleetwood Mac...after all the band IS called Fleetwood Mac and NOT Buckingham Nicks for Christ's sake.

[LiquidBlue5000]

And, so f**ing what if Stevie AND Lindsey call it quits from Fleetwood Mac (they've been there done that already and in both of their cases way too late for my tastes, they both should've just stayed away after the end of the Tusk tour.), Mick & John can find either someone new or some other former members (Peter? Jeremy? Bob Welch? Christine?) to be Fleetwood Mac...after all the band IS called Fleetwood Mac and NOT Buckingham Nicks for Christ's sake.

They should have stayed away after the Tusk tour?? that's just crazy talk...

Without Stevie and Lindsey, there is no Fleetwood Mac... remember the Time album?? neither does anyone else.. :rolleyes:

[Johnny Stew]

Without Stevie and Lindsey, there is no Fleetwood Mac... remember the Time album?? neither does anyone else.. :rolleyes:*Runs and hides behind the couch*

[cliffdweller]

I think if Mick said "Stevie, c'mon! Steeeeviiiieeee! C'MON!!!" she would go back. She'd be all like "Weeeeeeeeeelllllll... okay!"

Yeah, but is that what we really want? Do we want Stevie and/or Lindsey to be dragged kicking and screaming into a project they don't have their hearts in? I don't. I don't want uninspired performances or just "going through the motions" from either one of them. Canned speeches and stock performances be damned! :laugh::laugh:

[cliffdweller]

after all the band IS called Fleetwood Mac and NOT Buckingham Nicks for Christ's sake.

Yes, unfortunately :laugh:.

[skcin]

I could be standing out in the rain with Christopher Nicks and if he told me it was raining, I'd go ask two other people.


:cool: snicker chortle chuckle :cool:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I still dont get how you say she is referring to EFO when she mentions "Monica" in the Destiny Rules Doc...
Yes she says "It's totally about me now...and that I lost tomorrow to Monica"


Which IMO implies she lost a scheduled meeting she had with this mysterious "Monica" who I think is an attorney--since Karen is talking about Stevie's attorneys and all that

Chris

[skcin]

I still dont get how you say she is referring to EFO when she mentions "Monica" in the Destiny Rules Doc...
Yes she says "It's totally about me now...and that I lost tomorrow to Monica"


Which IMO implies she lost a scheduled meeting she had with this mysterious "Monica" who I think is an attorney--since Karen is talking about Stevie's attorneys and all that

Chris

Chris - I thought she said something like "I lost tomorrow to mix Monica." Strand?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

ya know you're all right...lol..All this time I didnt here the MIX part...that is so interesting..

she does say :

Stevie interrupts "Well ok but it does look like that I lost tomorrow to mix Monica...I don't know what to do about this, but maybe you should go and call Chris Lord Alge, or has tomorrow already been booked."

Chris

[gldstwmn]

Maybe I should clarify: Mick needs the money - John needs a bigger boat! :)

Now that makes sense. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

I'm quoting myself :laugh: I meant that really sarcastically. I don't think any of them have been lying. Just wanted to clear that up in case of confusion. :rolleyes:

We need a sarcasm emoticon. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

I still dont get how you say she is referring to EFO when she mentions "Monica" in the Destiny Rules Doc...
Yes she says "It's totally about me now...and that I lost tomorrow to Monica"
Chris

Watch it again. She says "I lost tomorrow to mix Monica."

[chiliD]

They should have stayed away after the Tusk tour?? that's just crazy talk...

Without Stevie and Lindsey, there is no Fleetwood Mac... remember the Time album?? neither does anyone else.. :rolleyes:

That's the biggest load of horsecrap I've EVER read. If there's no Fleetwood Mac without the "spoiled Californians", the who the Fk are Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, Christine McVie, Bekka Bramlett, Rick Vito, Billy Burnette, Jeremy Spencer, Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Bob Weston & Bob Welch...oh yeah, members of Fleetwood Mac.

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

.

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

True but Fleetwood Mac definetely won't be filling up arenas with just Mick and John...

Chris

[thepoetinmyhear]

That's the biggest load of horsecrap I've EVER read. If there's no Fleetwood Mac without the "spoiled Californians", the who the Fk are Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, Christine McVie, Bekka Bramlett, Rick Vito, Billy Burnette, Jeremy Spencer, Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Bob Weston & Bob Welch...oh yeah, members of Fleetwood Mac.

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

You're correct, so let me help Brian out here.

In the US, there is no popular group called Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. Voila! Don't agree, let's talk sales figures and see if you agree (hence my word choice with popular).

[ShangriLaTroubl]

You're correct, so let me help Brian out here.

In the US, there is no popular group called Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. Voila! Don't agree, let's talk sales figures and see if you agree (hence my word choice with popular).

I once met someone who thought Stevie's name was Fleetwood Mac..lol...plenty of people think Fleetwood Mac is a HER..it's true!

Chris

[strandinthewind]

That's the biggest load of horsecrap I've EVER read. If there's no Fleetwood Mac without the "spoiled Californians", the who the Fk are Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, Christine McVie, Bekka Bramlett, Rick Vito, Billy Burnette, Jeremy Spencer, Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Bob Weston & Bob Welch...oh yeah, members of Fleetwood Mac.

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.


I waiting behind the couch with Le Stew for that response :laugh:

I cannot say I agree with ya 100% but I do agree that FM existed prior to BN and IMO it was in many ways better, though I LOVE the Rumors lineup. I also think the Time record was amongst CM's finer moments and Billy and Dave were and are fab. guitarists and Bekka has an GREAT voice. Sadly, due to many reasons, that Time line up, even with the limited presence of CM, lacked the panache of La Nicks and the Lindsey and the combination of those five people, which was more than the individuals on their own.

In the end, I have always said Peter Green was and is to this day the best guitarist FM ever had. His style was sublime. He could also write a cool song.

On edit - I think there is no huge mega star FM without "the five" and IMO without La Nicks moreso. But, that does not mean that FM cannot make good music with them. It did so before and after them and mega sales are not everything :shrug: In fact, the SYW lineup did not have stellar CD sales but they did manage to fill up some large arenas around the world. mostly on their laurels though because, again, SYW was mostly unknown to the mass public.

Anyway - my $0.02 :cool:

[SuzeQuze]

I wouldn't go THAT far, but it seems to me people, including members of Fleetwood Mac, have said that it's "all over" only to be proven wrong. Lindsey said that he couldn't see himself ever working with Fleetwood Mac again in 1987. Stevie said in 1989 that she would never, ever work with Lindsey ever again. Stevie and Christine said they would never tour again with Fleetwood Mac in 1990. Stevie said she would never work with Mick Fleetwood ever again in 1991. Mick said that Fleetwood Mac was all but over in 1992, and that it WAS over in 1996. And yet they keep coming back! I'm sorry, but in 18 years of fandom, I've heard the Mac was done one too many times. Save for one comment by Don Henley and a comment supposedly made by Chris Nicks, I've not heard anything to indicate that the Mac is done.

And even if we do hear otherwise straight from band members why should we believe them? Their history says they will tour again, even when they say the never will!

[David]

I once met someone who thought Stevie's name was Fleetwood Mac..lol...plenty of people think Fleetwood Mac is a HER..it's true!In 1986, plenty of people on the streets of Honolulu, during an evacuation, thought a tsunami was a salami.

Not only that, but 90 percent of the universe is dark matter, & nobody even knows what that is ... yet.

[cliffdweller]

You can't just say "case closed" without hearing a response. That's called a totalitarian argument. Even though people probably don't actually call it that. But they should. What if someone comes up with some extraordinarily insightful response and it totally destroys your entire argument? The case would have to be reopened pending further investigation, and then closed all over again. Who here has that kind of time? We could just skip the reopening stage and go straight to the legitimate closing of the case. And all of our little problems could be solved.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!

[cliffdweller]

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

Says you...*goddammit* :laugh:

[SapphireSister]

Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

You're absolutely right. STEVIE NICKS is the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac (not SN & LB). Ha! ;)

[strandinthewind]

ya know you're all right...lol..All this time I didnt here the MIX part...that is so interesting..

she does say :

Stevie interrupts "Well ok but it does look like that I lost tomorrow to mix Monica...I don't know what to do about this, but maybe you should go and call Chris Lord Alge, or has tomorrow already been booked."

Chris

Ding Ding Ding Ding :laugh:

Which is my point - I mean what song are they talking about - what song are they mixing - it is EFO :shrug: To me, that means on its own that Monica and EFO are one in the same. But, I guess some are loathe to make the connection - who am I to keep them down :cool:

[dissention]

Ding Ding Ding Ding :laugh:

Which is my point - I mean what song are they talking about - what song are they mixing - it is EFO :shrug: To me, that means on its own that Monica and EFO are one in the same. But, I guess some are loathe to make the connection - who am I to keep them down :cool:

I'm not loathe to make the connection, I just didn't pick up on it in the doc and I'm loathe to believe anything Chris Nicks says. ;) You may be 100% correct, because the lyrics certainly fit into the Bill/Monica theme.

[strandinthewind]

I'm not loathe to make the connection, I just didn't pick up on it in the doc and I'm loathe to believe anything Chris Nicks says. ;) You may be 100% correct, because the lyrics certainly fit into the Bill/Monica theme.


Can we hold hands now - I mean we are agreeing so much lately people are gonna say we are in love Clarice :xoxo: :wavey: :xoxo:

[dissention]

Can we hold hands now - I mean we are agreeing so much lately people are gonna say we are in love Clarice :xoxo: :wavey: :xoxo:

:laugh:

Oh, I suppose.

[LiquidBlue5000]

That's the biggest load of horsecrap I've EVER read. If there's no Fleetwood Mac without the "spoiled Californians", the who the Fk are Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, Christine McVie, Bekka Bramlett, Rick Vito, Billy Burnette, Jeremy Spencer, Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Bob Weston & Bob Welch...oh yeah, members of Fleetwood Mac.


Fleetwood Mac has no future without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac had no past without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac has no present in between Stevie and Lindsey... So, while all those fine musicians are or were members of Fleetwood Mac, who noticed?? not many... the proof is in the record sales and the ticket sales...


Goddamn it, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are NOT and never have been the "be all & end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Case closed.

listen, take your pill and relax... it's just a message board :nod:

[strandinthewind]

:laugh:

Oh, I suppose.


Did I just define our relationship within the context of Hannible Lector and Clarice Starling :eek:

[SuzeQuze]

:laugh:

Oh, I suppose.

Holy f*ck I think the sky is falling!

[strandinthewind]

Holy f*ck I think the sky is falling!


When I am in Boston, I'll wanna hold your hand too - in fact. we can make it a three way on the Commons :laugh:

[chiliD]

Fleetwood Mac has no future without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac had no past without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac has no present in between Stevie and Lindsey...

That's crap...get your waders on. :mad:

So, while all those fine musicians are or were members of Fleetwood Mac, who noticed??

More than you know or will admit to. Had it not been for the fling between Bob Weston & Jenny Fleetwood, the Mystery To Me album & incarnation would've hit BIG...WAY BIG. The ball was already rollin' that way...Lindsey & Stevie were just damned lucky to have joined when they did. As Stevie has said, "we hit the Lotto". Just the same situation as when Ringo joined the Beatles. The "fame machine" was in motion, the new personnel were the beneficiaries.

[Livia]

Can we hold hands now - I mean we are agreeing so much lately people are gonna say we are in love Clarice :xoxo: :wavey: :xoxo:

:laugh: :lol: You 2 need to go and share a bottle of nice Chiaaaaanti! Ffffft--ffffft-fffffft-fffffft-fffffft!

[strandinthewind]

:laugh: :lol: You 2 need to go and share a bottle of nice Chiaaaaanti! Ffffft--ffffft-fffffft-fffffft-fffffft!


and some fava beans :eek:

it puts the lotion on its skin - it puts the lotion on its skin :eek:

[SuzeQuze]

When I am in Boston, I'll wanna hold your hand too - in fact. we can make it a three way on the Commons :laugh:

:xoxo: Either that or martinis on Newbury. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

:xoxo: Either that or martinis on Newbury. :lol:


well, now THAT is an A+ option. I should be there July 8th, which is a Friday. I will have at least on Scottie in tow, but she can stay at the hotel, where we can also have drinks :eek: Dissention MUST come to this - I have a feeling we will need a sober voice after a few hours :laugh:

[chiliD]

What if someone comes up with some extraordinarily insightful response and it totally destroys your entire argument? .

They can't. There's nothing that can be proven that would or COULD prove that Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham are the be all-end all of Fleetwood Mac...can't be done. There was a Fleetwood Mac before them and after them..and in between them, etc, etc. The fact is Fleetwood Mac existed without them. A FACT...can't be disproven.

Sure, Rumours was an anomaly. But, "bigger" isn't necessarily "better" either. So they sold multi-millions of albums, that just means they sold multi-millions of albums...to me, and MANY people I know (many right here on this site) prefer an incarnation that sold a quarter of a million units.

[Livia]

and some fava beans :eek:

it puts the lotion on its skin - it puts the lotion on its skin :eek:

A few years ago, I won Tom Petty tix from a radio station because I knew the name of the song the kidnapped Senator's daughter was singing along to while driving (American Girl!). :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

A few years ago, I won Tom Petty tix from a radio station because I knew the name of the song the kidnapped Senator's daughter was singing along to while driving (American Girl!). :thumbsup:


LOL - clever girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Oh Senator - just one more thing - did you breat feed Catherine . . . toughened your nipples didn't it" :eek:

[SuzeQuze]

well, now THAT is an A+ option. I should be there July 8th, which is a Friday. I will have at least on Scottie in tow, but she can stay at the hotel, where we can also have drinks :eek: Dissention MUST come to this - I have a feeling we will need a sober voice after a few hours :laugh:

Sounds lovely :) I want to meet your Scottie too if possible. :thumbsup:

[skcin]

and some fava beans :eek:

it puts the lotion on its skin - it puts the lotion on its skin :eek:


"Put the f*cking lotion in the basket!"

...or is it "put the lotion in the f*cking basket!"?

[strandinthewind]

"Put the f*cking lotion in the basket!"

...or is it "put the lotion in the f*cking basket!"?


I think it is the former - my other fav. is when she has his dog and he geos even more insane and screams/hisses/spits out "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PAIN ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" that movie scared me so much I RAN to my car from the outside of the theatre and I went ALONE :eek:

[skcin]

I think it is the former - my other fav. is when she has his dog and he geos even more insane and screams/hisses/spits out "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PAIN ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" that movie scared me so much I RAN to my car from the outside of the theatre and I went ALONE :eek:

You went ALONE?!?! Sheebus, are you crazy?

One of the few movies that gave me nightmares. :(

[CreepingDeath]

Did I just define our relationship within the context of Hannible Lector and Clarice Starling :eek:

"You're very frank, Clarice. I think it would be quite something to know you in private life." :eek:


It's great how this thread started about FM being 'done', and now we're on Silence of the Lambs. I? Love it.

[cliffdweller]

it puts the lotion on its skin - it puts the lotion on its skin :eek:

That reminds me of that song Livia posted a while back, can't remember the band, but they put music to that dialogue and formed a song...that? was priceless!!! :laugh:

[thepoetinmyhear]

I hate to burst your bubble, but Brian and I have specifically made mention that as far as the US is concerned, fleetwood mac didn't exist prior to Fleetwood Mac. You actually agree with our point in your last statement of FACT.
Sure, Rumours was an anomaly. But, "bigger" isn't necessarily "better" either. So they sold multi-millions of albums, that just means they sold multi-millions of albums...to me, and MANY people I know (many right here on this site) prefer an incarnation that sold a quarter of a million units.

So at most a quarter million people prefer that incarnation of fleetwood mac, whereas mulit-millions prefer a Lindsey/Stevie Mac. It is also likely that Millions (using the math multi-millions - quarter of a million) of people do not even know of the prior fleetwood mac. Sorry, but them's the facts even as you state them.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Had it not been for the fling between Bob Weston & Jenny Fleetwood, the Mystery To Me album & incarnation would've hit BIG...WAY BIG.

and you know this how?? Dear, i'm speaking from a factual standpoint and you are speaking from a projective standpoint... i have facts on my side and you have fiction...



Lindsey & Stevie were just damned lucky to have joined when they did.

Again, without Lindsey and Stevie, there would be no Fleetwood Mac...or at least no one would have known about them... The success of that band has always and will always rest on the shoulders of Stevie and Lindsey... the "Time" album and everything prior to the white album is proof of this...
Is there a Fleetwood Mac without Lindsey and Stevie? sure.. does anyone care about that kind of "Fleetwood Mac"? nope! :wavey:

[dissention]

Again, without Lindsey and Stevie, there would be no Fleetwood Mac...or at least no one would have known about them...

Whereas without Fleetwood Mac, there would be no Stevie and Lindsey...or at least no one would have known about them.

:thumbsup:

[LiquidBlue5000]

Whereas without Fleetwood Mac, there would be no Stevie and Lindsey...or at least no one would have known about them.

:thumbsup:

I agree... but to suggest that Lindsey and Stevie were just two more members of the band in the same as Billy and Becca were is a little ridiculous... don't ya think? ;)

[thepoetinmyhear]

Whereas without Fleetwood Mac, there would be no Stevie and Lindsey...or at least no one would have known about them.

:thumbsup:

Yeah I think without FM, stevie and lindsey would likely be just as unkown as those other incarnations of fleetwood mac.

[dissention]

I agree... but to suggest that Lindsey and Stevie were just two more members of the band in the same as Billy and Becca were is a little ridiculous... don't ya think? ;)

No, because that would imply that Stevie and Lidnsey made Fleetwood Mac. They did not and never will. As long as it has John McVie and Mick Fleetwood, it's Fleetwood Mac. In the scheme of the band, Stevie and Lindsey were just two other members like Rick Vito and Bekka Bramlett. Obviously the Rumours line-up is the most popular, but they were still just two members of the band. Fortunately, the fact of the matter is that with or without Buckingham Nicks, Fleetwood Mac is a band that will go forward. They did in the nineties, and for years before Buckingham Nicks joined, and they will again if they choose to do so.

[wondergirl9847]

My favorite incarnation of FM is any with Lindsey, but I still love any lineup with Danny and I'm cool with Bob Welch and Peter Green. FM is a very special band because there is something for everyone...and a lineup as well. LOL

Don't care for Bob Welch, try Rick Vito.

Don't care for Stevie Nicks, try Bekka Bramlett.

Don't care for Peter Green, try Lindsey Buckingham.

:lol:

[cliffdweller]

Whereas without Fleetwood Mac, there would be no Stevie and Lindsey...or at least no one would have known about them.

:thumbsup:

Maybe, maybe not. They were VERY talented, they probably would have busted through some other way, I'm just sure of it...They might have gotten picked up by some other band or formed one of their own. They had lots of musical connections in California, music was in their blood, between the two of those hard-heads they would have made something happen. Now whether or not they would have become mega-stars without Fleetwood Mac, well, who knows? Perhaps they would have been lesser stars, but I believe they still would have pursued a career in music. Stevie was NOT sent here to be a cleaning lady dammit! :laugh::laugh:

[dissention]

Maybe, maybe not. They were VERY talented, they probably would have busted through some other way, I'm just sure of it...They might have gotten picked up by some other band or formed one of their own. They had lots of musical connections in California, music was in their blood, between the two of those hard-heads they would have made something happen. Now whether or not they would have become mega-stars without Fleetwood Mac, well, who knows? Perhaps they would have been lesser stars, but I believe they still would have pursued a career in music. Stevie was NOT sent here to be a cleaning lady dammit! :laugh::laugh:

To hear Stevie tell it, if Fleetwood Mac hadn't reared its head, she would have packed it up and gone back to Phoenix. But it is Nicks, after all, so take it with a few pounds of salt. Lindsey, as much as he loved his guitar, always struck me as a lazy stoner without much smarts when it came to pursuing an actual career in music. :laugh:

[thepoetinmyhear]

To hear Stevie tell it, if Fleetwood Mac hadn't reared its head, she would have packed it up and gone back to Phoenix. But it is Nicks, after all, so take it with a few pounds of salt. Lindsey, as much as he loved his guitar, always struck me as a lazy stoner without much smarts when it came to pursuing an actual career in music. :laugh:

And he proves this time and time again. Lindsey, business wise, is a complete and utter moron. (sorry, a little pissy about the possibility of soundstage not being aired).

[SteveMacD]

Fleetwood Mac has no future without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac had no past without Stevie and Lindsey... Fleetwood Mac has no present in between Stevie and Lindsey... So, while all those fine musicians are or were members of Fleetwood Mac, who noticed?? not many... the proof is in the record sales and the ticket sales...
Yeah, nobody noticed Fleetwood Mac when Peter Green was in the band. It's not like he was universally respected by the likes of the Grateful Dead, B.B. King, the Allman Bros., Santana, Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters, and countless others. Oh, wait, he was. It's not like Santana had his biggest hit with an old Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac song. Oh wait, he did. For that matter, nobody paid attention to Fleetwood Mac during the Bob Welch years. It's not like the band shattered records for attendance at the Filmore during the Future Games/Bare Trees era. Oh wait, they did. It's not like Bob Welch's "Hypnotized" never got played a lot on the radio. Oh wait, it did. It's not like the whole Fake Mac story wasn't all over Rolling Stone. Oh wait, it was. It's not like Fleetwood Mac had ever been on national television in the US prior to Stevie and Lindsey. Oh wait, they were. But you know what almost NEVER got played on the radio was anything from Fritz or Buckingham Nicks. Hell, save for a few blips in Billboard, they never got any national exposure whatsoever. In fact, in terms of the "Rumours" version of Fleetwood Mac, the last time I checked, it was Christine McVie who had the most hit singles.

So clearly, this band owes its everything to Stevie and Lindsey. Clearly, Fleetwood Mac was doomed for obscurity before Stevie and Lindsey, which is why all of their pre-1975 albums have fairly decent numbers compared to a certain album released by a certain california duo in 1973. For that matter, how many Warner-Reprise Fleetwood Mac albums have ever been out of print? NONE. Buckingham Nicks went out of print THREE times.

As for a future, the last time I checked, Lindsey's "Out Of The Cradle" sold about as many copies as "Time," SA and TISL failed to set sales figures on fire, Christine's "In The Meantime" wasn't a hit, and SYW was anything but a huge hit. It had a high debut, but fell rather quickly. "The Dance," which as we all know was mostly a rehasing of classic material, was the only recent Mac album to do well, which either suggests that the mass public will only buy into Fleetwood Mac if the five who were in the most successful version are in the band OR that the public really doesn't care about NEW Fleetwood Mac material at all. My hunch is the latter. So, if that's the game, it would appear that it really doesn't matter who's in Fleetwood Mac at this point, because the public that made the Mac a huge seller just doesn't care anymore. Incidentally, this is a problem for ALL artists of their generation.

Speaking of "The Dance," am I the only one who remembers that Stevie had basically become a joke prior to that album? In fact, it was Fleetwood Mac that made Stevie in 1975 and it was Fleetwood Mac that made her respectable again in 1997. I think she owes more to them than they owe her at this point.

[LiquidBlue5000]

No, because that would imply that Stevie and Lidnsey made Fleetwood Mac. They did not and never will. As long as it has John McVie and Mick Fleetwood, it's Fleetwood Mac.

Well, "technically", yeah... my only point is that no one will care and no one will buy their records or see them play live... how many copies DID "The Mick Fleetwood Band" record sell anyway? :confused: ;)


In the scheme of the band, Stevie and Lindsey were just two other members like Rick Vito and Bekka Bramlett. Obviously the Rumours line-up is the most popular, but they were still just two members of the band. Fortunately, the fact of the matter is that with or without Buckingham Nicks, Fleetwood Mac is a band that will go forward. They did in the nineties, and for years before Buckingham Nicks joined, and they will again if they choose to do so.

doubt it! well, maybe Mick can give ole Bekka, Rick, and Billy a call and see if they wanna come back... :rolleyes:

actually, now that i think about, aren't they STILL members of Fleetwood Mac?? Were they officially fired?? and if they weren't fired or they didn't leave the band, then how come they weren't on "The Dance"?? how come they weren't on "Say You Will?

come on, people... Mick knows as much as anyone that Fleetwood Mac NEEDS Stevie and Lindsey.. Anyone else are just "replacements" for them.. without those two, they are just another struggling band trying to book club dates...

[ThePenguin]

"Put the f*cking lotion in the basket!"

...or is it "put the lotion in the f*cking basket!"?

ok, you guys are scaring the crap out of me!!!!

I still won't watch this movie if Marty is out of town. Or if i do i flip channels at the scary parts LOL.. I'm such a wuss. but really, that is like one of the scariest moves ever. I've seen it so many times i have all the lines memorized.

-Lis

[LiquidBlue5000]

As for a future, the last time I checked, Lindsey's "Out Of The Cradle" sold about as many copies as "Time," SA and TISL failed to set sales figures on fire, Christine's "In The Meantime" wasn't a hit, and SYW was anything but a huge hit. It had a high debut, but fell rather quickly. "The Dance," which as we all know was mostly a rehasing of classic material, was the only recent Mac album to do well, which either suggests that the mass public will only buy into Fleetwood Mac if the five who were in the most successful version are in the band OR that the public really doesn't care about NEW Fleetwood Mac material at all. My hunch is the latter. So, if that's the game, it would appear that it really doesn't matter who's in Fleetwood Mac at this point, because the public that made the Mac a huge seller just doesn't care anymore. Incidentally, this is a problem for ALL artists of their generation.


Then why is it that FM played over 130 dates in the past 2 years?? If no one cared about them anymore, then why so many shows?? They certainly weren't doing it just for kicks... there is STILL a market for a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac... i don't, however, recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. although i could be mistaken.. :p


Speaking of "The Dance," am I the only one who remembers that Stevie had basically become a joke prior to that album? In fact, it was Fleetwood Mac that made Stevie in 1975 and it was Fleetwood Mac that made her respectable again in 1997. I think she owes more to them than they owe her at this point.

She made herself respectable again... she sounded great, she looked great.. she helped FM spawn two singles off "The Dance".. the ONLY singles off "The Dance"... but even if the reunion had not taken place, i would bet my left toe that a new Stevie Nicks solo album and tour would have been at least twice as successful as a new Fleetwood Mac album and tour without her and Lindsey.. again, the "Time" album..

[dissention]

Well, "technically", yeah... my only point is that no one will care and no one will buy their records or see them play live... how many copies DID "The Mick Fleetwood Band" record sell anyway? :confused: ;)

Beats me, I sure as shit didn't buy a copy. :laugh:

[SuzeQuze]

ok, you guys are scaring the crap out of me!!!!

I still won't watch this movie if Marty is out of town. Or if i do i flip channels at the scary parts LOL.. I'm such a wuss. but really, that is like one of the scariest moves ever. I've seen it so many times i have all the lines memorized.

-Lis

It scared me so much I'll never watch it again. :shocked: Eww eww eww. I also wouldn't watch any of the sequels/prequels/whatever the hell they were. That thing effed with my head for months! :lol:

[SteveMacD]

Well, "technically", yeah... my only point is that no one will care and no one will buy their records or see them play live... how many copies DID "The Mick Fleetwood Band" record sell anyway? :confused: ;)
Mick's solo albums NEVER sell well. But hey, OOTC, SA, and TISL really burned up the charts, didn't they? Fleetwood Mac is a major brand name that's bigger than any of them. And, to be honest, it's not like people were flocking in droves to the record store to buy SYW, or any recent Mac related album, save for "The Dance," which was basically a live greatest hits album. One of the big reasons "Time" didn't do well is that Mick Fleetwood and Dave Mason spent too much money trying to get the "right" sound, and Warners had little money to actually promote the album. The only advantage Stevie and Lindsey bring to Fleetwood Mac, at this point, is star power for concerts.
doubt it! well, maybe Mick can give ole Bekka, Rick, and Billy a call and see if they wanna come back... :rolleyes:

actually, now that i think about, aren't they STILL members of Fleetwood Mac?? Were they officially fired?? and if they weren't fired or they didn't leave the band, then how come they weren't on "The Dance"?? how come they weren't on "Say You Will?
Rick quit the band, and Mick disbanded Fleetwood Mac altogether in 1996. So, the second half of your comment is especially goofy. Personally, I'd love to see Mick and John get together with Billy, Bekka, & Rick. It won't happen. I think a reunion of Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac is more likely at this point. If that happens I think there would be a slight possibility of Rick being asked to help out, to take pressure off of Peter and Jeremy, but who knows.
come on, people... Mick knows as much as anyone that Fleetwood Mac NEEDS Stevie and Lindsey.. Anyone else are just "replacements" for them.. without those two, they are just another struggling band trying to book club dates...
And, judging by sales figures, Stevie and Lindsey NEED Fleetwood Mac at this point. Otherwise, Stevie will be doomed to be a permanent Vegas act and Lindsey will either die at the age of 85 in his recording studio trying to put the finishing touches on his fourth solo album or spend the rest of his career being an opening act.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Mick's solo albums NEVER sell well. But hey, OOTC, SA, and TISL really burned up the charts, didn't they? Fleetwood Mac is a major brand name that's bigger than any of them. And, to be honest, it's not like people were flocking in droves to the record store to buy SYW, or any recent Mac related album, save for "The Dance," which was basically a live greatest hits album.

Nonsense... Street Angel and TISL BOTH went gold.. I believe "SYW" went platinum.. did "Time" go gold or platinum? i don't think so.. last i heard, it was out of print.. as far as "Out Of The Cradle" is concerned, it spawned a hit single in "Countdown".. i distinctly remember hearing that song on the radio all the time in '93 and the video for it as well.. not sure whether it went gold or platinum or whatever, but again, i'll bet my left toe it sold better than "Time"


One of the big reasons "Time" didn't do well is that Mick Fleetwood and Dave Mason spent too much money trying to get the "right" sound, and Warners had little money to actually promote the album.

Right... well, i bet if they had asked Lindsey and Stevie to help out, it would have had the "right" sound.. :rolleyes:


The only advantage Stevie and Lindsey bring to Fleetwood Mac, at this point, is star power for concerts.


Well, that.. and we also get a non daisy dukes-wearing Bekka Bramlett-singing "Gold Dust Woman" performance... ;)


Rick quit the band, and Mick disbanded Fleetwood Mac altogether in 1996.

And why oh why did Mick do that?? any particular reason?? ...hmmmm

[face of glass]

Nonsense... Street Angel and TISL BOTH went gold.. I believe "SYW" went platinum.. did "Time" go gold or platinum? i don't think so.. last i heard, it was out of print.. as far as "Out Of The Cradle" is concerned, it spawned a hit single in "Countdown".. i distinctly remember hearing that song on the radio all the time in '93 and the video for it as well.. not sure whether it went gold or platinum or whatever, but again, i'll bet my left toe it sold better than "Time"
Here's a post on the sales figures (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=131340&postcount=1), if you're interested. I haven't been able to find a newer one.
For instance, it says that Street Angel has been certified gold, but that it has sold only 226,000 copies.

This is because gold and platinum certifications are based on the amount of shipped units, not on the actual sold units.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Here's a post on the sales figures (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=131340&postcount=1), if you're interested. I haven't been able to find a newer one.
For instance, it says that Street Angel has been certified gold, but that it has sold only 226,000 copies.

This is because gold and platinum certifications are based on the amount of shipped units, not on the actual sold units.


50,000 copies of "Time" sold.. oh my!! :lol:

[estranged4life]

how many copies DID "The Mick Fleetwood Band" record sell anyway?

"The Mick Fleetwood Band" had sold only 3000 copies.

[cliffdweller]

Clearly, Fleetwood Mac was doomed for obscurity before Stevie and Lindsey, which is why all of their pre-1975 albums have fairly decent numbers compared to a certain album released by a certain california duo in 1973. For that matter, how many Warner-Reprise Fleetwood Mac albums have ever been out of print? NONE. Buckingham Nicks went out of print THREE times.

That's like comparing apples to oranges. Different musical genre, different time, different country, different circumstances yadda, yadda, yadda...

[Serrart]

My advice to Jason is to never again discuss any tidbits you might hear, because if it doesn't offer proof that a song was written about a clandestine affair with Lindsey, no one's gonna believe you anyway. ;)

For me she can write about any affair , including Donald Duck and Daisy Duck , but please Lewinsky-Clinton is just too depressing... I don't want to know either.

Romy

[cliffdweller]

And, judging by sales figures, Stevie and Lindsey NEED Fleetwood Mac at this point. Otherwise, Stevie will be doomed to be a permanent Vegas act and Lindsey will either die at the age of 85 in his recording studio trying to put the finishing touches on his fourth solo album or spend the rest of his career being an opening act.

*ouch* bitter much?

[LiquidBlue5000]

"The Mick Fleetwood Band" had sold only 3000 copies.

Hey, do you think if John McVie was involved with that project sales would have went up to 4000 copies? ;)

[thepoetinmyhear]

Hey, do you think if John McVie was involved with that project sales would have went up to 4000 copies? ;)

Only if it was called Mick Fleetwood's Gotta Band. One word, a thousand extra sales.

[Rickypt]

And, judging by sales figures, Stevie and Lindsey NEED Fleetwood Mac at this point. Otherwise, Stevie will be doomed to be a permanent Vegas act


It's very possible that's what Stevie wants. She also doesn't NEED a damn thing. She has come back from near obscurity and reestablished herself as a rock and roll legend. She certainly doesn't need another FM album or tour.

People keep assuming that if she said she's done with FM that there must be some kind of anger or major drama behind it.

Isn't it possible that Stevie, pushing 60, is reflecting on what she wants to do with the rest of her life? I still have a newspaper clipping interview of her from 1981 where she said at some point she imagines herself just laying low and playing shows at the Roxy a few times a year. Sounds to me like she's moving towards that plan, just substituting Vegas for the Roxy.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Only if it was called Mick Fleetwood's Gotta Band. One word, a thousand extra sales.


:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[Serrart]

I think there would still be Fleetwood Mac, without Lindsey and Stevie but only if the band returned to pure blues. Obviously they woud sell less, but what if Peter Green or John Mayall or some other Blues god played with them? I'd buy the album and go to the concert in a minute. :nod:

Romy

[Livia]

Yeah, nobody noticed Fleetwood Mac when Peter Green was in the band. It's not like he was universally respected by the likes of the Grateful Dead, B.B. King, the Allman Bros., Santana, Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters, and countless others. Oh, wait, he was. It's not like Santana had his biggest hit with an old Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac song. Oh wait, he did. For that matter, nobody paid attention to Fleetwood Mac during the Bob Welch years. It's not like the band shattered records for attendance at the Filmore during the Future Games/Bare Trees era. Oh wait, they did. It's not like Bob Welch's "Hypnotized" never got played a lot on the radio. Oh wait, it did. It's not like the whole Fake Mac story wasn't all over Rolling Stone. Oh wait, it was. It's not like Fleetwood Mac had ever been on national television in the US prior to Stevie and Lindsey. Oh wait, they were. But you know what almost NEVER got played on the radio was anything from Fritz or Buckingham Nicks. Hell, save for a few blips in Billboard, they never got any national exposure whatsoever. In fact, in terms of the "Rumours" version of Fleetwood Mac, the last time I checked, it was Christine McVie who had the most hit singles.

So clearly, this band owes its everything to Stevie and Lindsey. Clearly, Fleetwood Mac was doomed for obscurity before Stevie and Lindsey, which is why all of their pre-1975 albums have fairly decent numbers compared to a certain album released by a certain california duo in 1973. For that matter, how many Warner-Reprise Fleetwood Mac albums have ever been out of print? NONE. Buckingham Nicks went out of print THREE times.

As for a future, the last time I checked, Lindsey's "Out Of The Cradle" sold about as many copies as "Time," SA and TISL failed to set sales figures on fire, Christine's "In The Meantime" wasn't a hit, and SYW was anything but a huge hit. It had a high debut, but fell rather quickly. "The Dance," which as we all know was mostly a rehasing of classic material, was the only recent Mac album to do well, which either suggests that the mass public will only buy into Fleetwood Mac if the five who were in the most successful version are in the band OR that the public really doesn't care about NEW Fleetwood Mac material at all. My hunch is the latter. So, if that's the game, it would appear that it really doesn't matter who's in Fleetwood Mac at this point, because the public that made the Mac a huge seller just doesn't care anymore. Incidentally, this is a problem for ALL artists of their generation.

Speaking of "The Dance," am I the only one who remembers that Stevie had basically become a joke prior to that album? In fact, it was Fleetwood Mac that made Stevie in 1975 and it was Fleetwood Mac that made her respectable again in 1997. I think she owes more to them than they owe her at this point.

It was Judas Priest who made me aware of a pre-SN/LB FM....I adore their version of Green Manalishi!!

[lagringader&r]

Did anyone notice how rested and refreshed Stevie looked in Vegas? The SYW tour had her looking tired and worn out. Maybe she's just had enough and wants to do small shows here and there from now on. That's cool with me as long as that's what she wants and we still get to see her now and then. Christine got tired of the touring and put out a solo cd. Maybe Stevie's just following her lead. :thumbsup:

P.S. I will still miss FM if they're over. :nod:

[lagringader&r]

Yeah, nobody noticed Fleetwood Mac when Peter Green was in the band. It's not like he was universally respected by the likes of the Grateful Dead, B.B. King, the Allman Bros., Santana, Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters, and countless others. Oh, wait, he was. It's not like Santana had his biggest hit with an old Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac song. Oh wait, he did. For that matter, nobody paid attention to Fleetwood Mac during the Bob Welch years. It's not like the band shattered records for attendance at the Filmore during the Future Games/Bare Trees era. Oh wait, they did. It's not like Bob Welch's "Hypnotized" never got played a lot on the radio. Oh wait, it did. It's not like the whole Fake Mac story wasn't all over Rolling Stone. Oh wait, it was. It's not like Fleetwood Mac had ever been on national television in the US prior to Stevie and Lindsey. Oh wait, they were. But you know what almost NEVER got played on the radio was anything from Fritz or Buckingham Nicks. Hell, save for a few blips in Billboard, they never got any national exposure whatsoever. In fact, in terms of the "Rumours" version of Fleetwood Mac, the last time I checked, it was Christine McVie who had the most hit singles.

So clearly, this band owes its everything to Stevie and Lindsey. Clearly, Fleetwood Mac was doomed for obscurity before Stevie and Lindsey, which is why all of their pre-1975 albums have fairly decent numbers compared to a certain album released by a certain california duo in 1973. For that matter, how many Warner-Reprise Fleetwood Mac albums have ever been out of print? NONE. Buckingham Nicks went out of print THREE times.

As for a future, the last time I checked, Lindsey's "Out Of The Cradle" sold about as many copies as "Time," SA and TISL failed to set sales figures on fire, Christine's "In The Meantime" wasn't a hit, and SYW was anything but a huge hit. It had a high debut, but fell rather quickly. "The Dance," which as we all know was mostly a rehasing of classic material, was the only recent Mac album to do well, which either suggests that the mass public will only buy into Fleetwood Mac if the five who were in the most successful version are in the band OR that the public really doesn't care about NEW Fleetwood Mac material at all. My hunch is the latter. So, if that's the game, it would appear that it really doesn't matter who's in Fleetwood Mac at this point, because the public that made the Mac a huge seller just doesn't care anymore. Incidentally, this is a problem for ALL artists of their generation.

Speaking of "The Dance," am I the only one who remembers that Stevie had basically become a joke prior to that album? In fact, it was Fleetwood Mac that made Stevie in 1975 and it was Fleetwood Mac that made her respectable again in 1997. I think she owes more to them than they owe her at this point.

As much as I adore Stevie, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Ok, I agree with everything. :laugh: For purely selfish reasons, I want FM to stick around, put out another cd with all new music and tour again, but you're right that they pretty much had their day in the sun. I don't know much about the FM prior to Stevie and Lindsey joining, but I know they were popular. Whatever the band members decide to do, I wish them the best. :xoxo: :distress: (where's that crying smilie when you need it?)

[SapphireSister]

Did anyone notice how rested and refreshed Stevie looked in Vegas? The SYW tour had her looking tired and worn out. Maybe she's just had enough and wants to do small shows here and there from now on. That's cool with me as long as that's what she wants and we still get to see her now and then. Christine got tired of the touring and put out a solo cd. Maybe Stevie's just following her lead. :thumbsup:

P.S. I will still miss FM if they're over. :nod:

Yes, I did notice how refreshed and energized she looked in Vegas. She just looked happier and more serene all around. That 2+ years of touring with FM had to have started taking it's toll on her. She must have been happy to have the stage to herself and the one making all the decisions instead of having to concede all the time.
I have to admit here people (and don't hate me) but I'd be perfectly happy to see her touring solo for the rest of her career...after all I've always been a Stevie fan before FM so it's totally fine with me. I'd rather her not share the stage with anyone. It's all about HER!

[Rickypt]

I have to admit here people (and don't hate me) but I'd be perfectly happy to see her touring solo for the rest of her career...after all I've always been a Stevie fan before FM so it's totally fine with me. I'd rather her not share the stage with anyone. It's all about HER!

I agree with you. I am not interested in another FM tour without Christine and I've never liked Lindsey.

I thought the SYW tour was technically very good, but lacked true charisma or spontaneity. Nor did the SYW album come across as anything more than a collection of Lindsey and Stevie solo work.

I'm also not that keen on yearly summer shed tours from Stevie with the same setlist, but if I'm going to pay $100+ to go to a concert, I'd rather it be for nonstop Nicks.

Although "Come" did make an excellent time for a potty break. --duck--

[SteveMacD]

Then why is it that FM played over 130 dates in the past 2 years?? If no one cared about them anymore, then why so many shows?? They certainly weren't doing it just for kicks... there is STILL a market for a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac...
Are you functionally illiterate or something? I said that people don't care about NEW music. As in their new albums. Now, they can tour, and people will come out because they know they're going to hear classics from the white Fleetwood Mac album and "Rumours." Chances are, they're heading for the beer line whenever a song like "Come" is playing because they don't give two shits about the new stuff. WE do, but then WE'RE fans.
i don't, however, recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. although i could be mistaken.. :p
They may have toured even more. They were on the road quite a lot between '94-'95 and played all over the world. They even had one of their concerts aired in full on European television (althought the show was taped in Switzerland). In fact, that show was shown quite a lot, along side the "Red Rocks" video, on the now defunct Trio television network. Admittedly, this touring was done prior to the album's release. I think Mick started hanging around Lindsey during the making of the album, which is why the band never toured in support of "Time."
She made herself respectable again... she sounded great, she looked great.. she helped FM spawn two singles off "The Dance".. the ONLY singles off "The Dance"... but even if the reunion had not taken place, i would bet my left toe that a new Stevie Nicks solo album and tour would have been at least twice as successful as a new Fleetwood Mac album and tour without her and Lindsey.. again, the "Time" album..
I totally disagree. During "The Dance," people were reintroduced to Fleetwood Mac. They had all cleaned up their acts and all looked good. The difference is that Mick, John, Christine, and Lindsey still had some level of respectability going into the Dance. Stevie's public image had take a huge hit in the previous decade. While I won't discount what she was able to do in terms of getting herself healthy, I don't think people would have been willing to pay attention without it being in the context of Fleetwood Mac. People would have just written her off, as many had already done. For me, personally, I felt that Stevie was back the moment the band started doing "Everywhere," mostly because of how beautifully and tastefully her voice blended in the song.

In any event, my hunch is that Fleetwood Mac was continuing to go through changes. I think it's pretty clear that Christine at some point quit Fleetwood Mac after the release of "Time" and Bekka and Billy had already planned on doing an album together outside of Fleetwood Mac. Considering Lindsey was slowly getting back in the fold during the "Time" sessions, my hunch is that he would probably have been asked to join the band. Given his respect for Dave Mason, Lindsey may have seriously considered the possibility, especially without the baggage of working with Chris and Stevie. In any event, another "Time" was pretty much off the table.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I agree with you. I am not interested in another FM tour without Christine and I've never liked Lindsey.

I thought the SYW tour was technically very good, but lacked true charisma or spontaneity. Nor did the SYW album come across as anything more than a collection of Lindsey and Stevie solo work.

I'm also not that keen on yearly summer shed tours from Stevie with the same setlist, but if I'm going to pay $100+ to go to a concert, I'd rather it be for nonstop Nicks.

Although "Come" did make an excellent time for a potty break. --duck--


:eek: Not a big Lindsey fan? Wow. To each their own, I guess. You are still a Stevie fan...that's all that matters. :thumbsup:

.......and I could never take a potty break during a FM show! I know a lot of you do, but I would pee my pants before leaving my seat.

[CreepingDeath]

.......and I could never take a potty break during a FM show! I know a lot of you do, but I would pee my pants before leaving my seat.

Word.

I won't drink anything during the show, just to make sure I won't have to leave. :o.

[SteveMacD]

Nonsense... Street Angel and TISL BOTH went gold.. I believe "SYW" went platinum.. did "Time" go gold or platinum? i don't think so.. last i heard, it was out of print.. as far as "Out Of The Cradle" is concerned, it spawned a hit single in "Countdown".. i distinctly remember hearing that song on the radio all the time in '93 and the video for it as well.. not sure whether it went gold or platinum or whatever, but again, i'll bet my left toe it sold better than "Time"
If you honestly believe SA, TISL, OOTC and SYW were hit albums, there's really no point in continuing our discussion, as you are clearly living in some type of fantasy land. By the '75-'87 standards, they were miserable flops. At least with "Time," the band has the excuse that they didn't tour to support the album after it came out. As for "Countdown," yes it got played a lot, as did the Zoo's "Shakin' The Cage." But the record-buying public were saying "Nevermind." Fleetwood Mac and its various memebers were irrelevant in 1993. There's no way they could compete with Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Sound Garden, et. al.
Right... well, i bet if they had asked Lindsey and Stevie to help out, it would have had the "right" sound.. :rolleyes:
I have to disagree, at least as far as Stevie is concerned. I don't think "Time" would have done any better with her in the band in her condition at the time. Lindsey actually was on "Time." He sang backing vocals on the old Delaney Bramlett tune "Nothing Without You."
Well, that.. and we also get a non daisy dukes-wearing Bekka Bramlett-singing "Gold Dust Woman" performance... ;)
It sure beat the hell out of the 1990 version I had to suffer through :D
And why oh why did Mick do that?? any particular reason?? ...hmmmm
Yeah. Christine quit the band and Bekka and Billy had plans to do a country album outside of Fleetwood Mac. And it was only a matter of time before Dave would want to do solo shows again. All the while Lindsey Buckingham and he were hanging out. It made more sense to Mick to work with Lindsey then to spend a lot of energy getting the various factions of Fleetwood Mac back together for a tour for an album the record company pretty much abandoned, especially after getting wind that Lindsey and Mick were working together. The way I see it, the record company was as responsible for getting the "Rumours" band back together as the members themselves were.

[Rickypt]

: You are still a Stevie fan...that's all that matters.


Indeed I am, which is why I stay in this forum! But I don't come here to diss Lindsey. The Come thing was just a joke.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Are you functionally illiterate or something? I said that people don't care about NEW music. As in their new albums.

My, someone's getting nasty... FYI, any album that goes gold is a reflection of a band's obvious success.. if not, then a "gold certification" would not exist.. so what if SYW didn't haven't Rumours-level success?? That doesn't make it a flop.. and it doesn't mean that "their audience" doesn't care about their "NEW music"... get a clue..


They may have toured even more. They were on the road quite a lot between '94-'95 and played all over the world. They even had one of their concerts aired in full on European television (althought the show was taped in Switzerland). In fact, that show was shown quite a lot, along side the "Red Rocks" video, on the now defunct Trio television network. Admittedly, this touring was done prior to the album's release. I think Mick started hanging around Lindsey during the making of the album, which is why the band never toured in support of "Time."

I'll repeat myself... I don't recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. or ANY tour for that matter that sold out the majority of such world-known arenas as Madison Square Garden and the Staples Center...


I totally disagree. During "The Dance," people were reintroduced to Fleetwood Mac. They had all cleaned up their acts and all looked good. The difference is that Mick, John, Christine, and Lindsey still had some level of respectability going into the Dance. Stevie's public image had take a huge hit in the previous decade. While I won't discount what she was able to do in terms of getting herself healthy, I don't think people would have been willing to pay attention without it being in the context of Fleetwood Mac.

yeah, and i don't think people would have been willing to pay attention to Fleetwood Mac without it being in the context of Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham... and what is this nonsense about Stevie's "public image" you keep babbling about?? Madonna took her clothes off and ran around naked for 3 years while having sex with dogs in her coffee book... Her "public image" would have seemed to be destroyed by 1994... well, it wasn't... and Stevie's popularity was never at the level of a Madonna... So, i can't fathom where you think Stevie's "public image" had taken such a "huge hit"... she wasn't exactly "popular" around that time, but her image was just fine..


In any event, another "Time" was pretty much off the table.

Well, thank heavens for that..

[LiquidBlue5000]

If you honestly believe SA, TISL, OOTC and SYW were hit albums, there's really no point in continuing our discussion, as you are clearly living in some type of fantasy land.

Don't put words in my mouth...i never said they were "hit albums".. i said they were more successful than "Time"... and they were.. Street Angel sold 10 times the amount of "Time".. what does that tell you?


At least with "Time," the band has the excuse that they didn't tour to support the album after it came out.

Not even a tour could have saved that album.. do you honestly believe that "Time" would have ever had the success of Street Angel if that version of Fleetwood Mac would have toured to support it?? First, they would have to sell tickets for their shows.. that NEVER would have happened.. certainly not in the venues that Stevie was playing in 1994 or any other year she has toured as a solo artist...



Yeah. Christine quit the band and Bekka and Billy had plans to do a country album outside of Fleetwood Mac.
and why did Christine quit only to return less than 2 years later? it wouldn't have had something to do with the flop known as "Time", would it? :rolleyes:

[SteveMacD]

FYI, any album that goes gold is a reflection of a band's obvious success.. if not, then a "gold certification" would not exist..
That certainly USED to be the case. These days, it's in reference to albums SHIPPED, not albums SOLD. Big difference.
so what if SYW didn't haven't Rumours-level success?? That doesn't make it a flop.. and it doesn't mean that "their audience" doesn't care about their "NEW music"... get a clue..
Wow. What a hypocrit. YOU'RE the one who has been ripping on Fleetwood Mac's lack of success without Stevie and Lindsey, and then you use the EXACT same argument that ChiliD used with the earlier incarnations of Fleetwood Mac.
I'll repeat myself... I don't recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. or ANY tour for that matter that sold out the majorirty of such world-known arenas as Madison Square Garden and the Staples Center...
Umm, they never toured in support of "Time." They only toured PRIOR to the release of "Time," and those tours were mainly done to build chops, to make the band a world-class working band. So this part of your argument holds absolutely no weight.
yeah, and i don't think people would have been willing to pay attention to Fleetwood Mac without it being in the context of Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham...
I don't think people would have been willing to pay attention to Fleetwood Mac without it being in the context of Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lindsey Buckingham, and Stevie Nicks. ALL FIVE. And, I stand by my statement that they only want to hear THOSE FIVE playing the BIG HITS from 1975-1987. Outside of that, it's potty break time.
and what is this nonsense about Stevie's "public image" you keep babbling about?? Madonna took her clothes off and ran around naked for 3 years while having sex with dogs in her coffee book... Her "public image" would have seemed to be destroyed by 1994... well, it wasn't...
You mean the same Madonna who posed nude prior to being a huge star? The same Madonna who had a hit single with "Like A Virgin?" The same Madonna who dressed as a whore/stripper in the song "Open Your Heart?" In other words, the same Madonna who was already viewed as somewhat of a slut who'd do anything pornographic for attention? Yeah, her running around naked for three years blah, blah, blah rocked our collective world. Didn't see that coming in the least bit. :rolleyes:
and Stevie's popularity was never at the level of a Madonna... So, i can't fathom where you think Stevie's "public image" had taken such a "huge hit"... she wasn't exactly "popular" around that time, but her image was just fine..
That's why David Spade said that if she got any fatter they would make her an honorary member of Heart :p Stevie was considered a fat, has-been whou couldn't sing anymore in 1995 by LOADS of people. She was a joke. She was cool again by 1997. I think a certain hugely hyped show that aired in August of 1997 may, just may have had something to do with that.

[dissention]

That's why David Spade said that if she got any fatter they would make her an honorary member of Heart :p

AIR! I NEED AIR! :laugh:

[MacMan]

That certainly USED to be the case. These days, it's in reference to albums SHIPPED, not albums SOLD. Big difference.


Just to clarify the certification process for albums. There are two factors, the shippments, which the RIAA certifies releases based on an accounting firms audit of the shippments from the manufacturer less any returns - then the soundscan numbers which tallies the actual numbers of cds sold over the counter.

It's possible to have an album certified gold as in the case of Street Angel, meaning 500,000 units shipped, and have the soundscan numbers show sales of around 226,000, which I believe is near the actual sales figures for that album.

It's a weird process... and I used to know at one point why the introduced soundscan and what the purpose of it was... but anyway.. here's the info from the RIAA site.... Carry on.

Certification

The Process

The certification process begins with an independent sales audit of each title by Gelfand, Rennert & Feldman, a highly respected accounting firm that has been auditing title sales for the RIAA® for more than 20 years.

The audit calculates what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes, for the life of the release. When certifying audio and music video releases, the independent auditor is careful to survey the entire music marketplace. An artist's Gold® or Platinum® award represents sales through retail, record clubs, rackjobbers, and all other ancillary markets that legitimately distribute music. Once a title’s sales has been audited and verified as having reached requisite levels, a formal certification report is issued and sent to the title's record company.

We are often asked why we don’t just use sales figures from SoundScan. SoundScan measures over-the-counter sales at music retail locations, while the RIAA®'s certification levels are based on unit shipments (minus returns) from manufacturers to a wide range of accounts, including non-retail record clubs, mail order houses, specialty stores, units shipped for Internet fulfillment or direct marketing sales, such as TV-advertised albums. The other difference is that SoundScan's archive is only a few years old, while the RIAA® has tracked artists' sales levels for more than 40 years.

[SteveMacD]

i said they were more successful than "Time"... and they were.. Street Angel sold 10 times the amount of "Time".. what does that tell you?
So what? I still prefer "Time" to SA, and I'm not alone. Mick and John don't get royalties. They make their money from touring. So even if they had a band fronted by others, they would still make more money than by relying on an album of new material with Stevie and Lindsey. In fact, they may make more, as THEY would get more money than the others, which is not the case with Stevie and Lindsey. In any event, with "Time" vs. SA, it's not like "Time" was the only Mac album without Stevie. I know that "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" both sold more than SA, so it can be done.
Not even a tour could have saved that album.. do you honestly believe that "Time" would have ever had the success of Street Angel if that version of Fleetwood Mac would have toured to support it?? First, they would have to sell tickets for their shows.. that NEVER would have happened.. certainly not in the venues that Stevie was playing in 1994 or any other year she has toured as a solo artist...
You mean the quarter to half filled venues she played in 1994? That's certainly aiming high. It's hard to say how the "Time" band would have faired. It's just speculation. The record company killed because they felt they could get the Big Mac, which they did. But, I believe that had they had the right amount of exposure and support from the record company it would have done at least as well as SA. Disjointed as it may be, I'd certainly take "Time" over SA in a heartbeat.
and why did Christine quit only to return less than 2 years later? it wouldn't have had something to do with the flop known as "Time", would it? :rolleyes:
Obviously, you never heard "Time," or you'd know by her songs that it was clear she was leaving the band. She left the band then for the same reason she left the band at the end of "The Dance" tour. SHE WAS DONE. Why did she do "The Dance?" It certainly wasn't her intention to even do a Fleetwood Mac album and tour. Like Mick and John, she was just working as a backing musician on Lindsey's solo album, which morphed into "The Dance." Had it been more than a live album and short tour, she wouldn't have had any part of it. After all, she's the one who ended the tour.

[thepoetinmyhear]

That certainly USED to be the case. These days, it's in reference to albums SHIPPED, not albums SOLD. Big difference.

I'm almost 100% sure that you are mistaken with this statement. I think you have it reversed. With soundscan technology now, the number sold are the number sold. In the previous eras they just had to go with the number shipped because there was no way to cross network with record store sales.

I also disagree wholeheartedly with most things you are saying, but it seems that we have yet another ledgie thread in which neither side will budge. I agree that in 1997 people wanted to see all five, not just lindsey and stevie, but I am very certaing that people aren't interested in a fleetwood mac without stevie AND lindsey. You cite the SYW record sales vs. rumours whereas the actual argument should be versus time or versus any of the pre BN albums. Either way SYW sold anywherre from 3 times to 10 times as much as any of those albums.

[gldstwmn]

To hear Stevie tell it, if Fleetwood Mac hadn't reared its head, she would have packed it up and gone back to Phoenix. But it is Nicks, after all, so take it with a few pounds of salt. Lindsey, as much as he loved his guitar, always struck me as a lazy stoner without much smarts when it came to pursuing an actual career in music. :laugh:

In reality, didn't Stevie have a deal with RCA? Didn't she once talk about her father having to get her out of it?

[SteveMacD]

I also disagree wholeheartedly with most things you are saying, but it seems that we have yet another ledgie thread in which neither side will budge.
I wish I knew specifically what you disagree with. Maybe I could explain some of my theories.
I agree that in 1997 people wanted to see all five, not just lindsey and stevie, but I am very certaing that people aren't interested in a fleetwood mac without stevie AND lindsey.
I'm NOT saying that the public really wants to see Fleetwood Mac without Stevie and Lindsey. I'm saying that, in the end, it really doesn't matter, in terms of NEW music, who's in the band. Their legacy isn't in new music or future music. It's in the past. The days of big hits are over for this band, and have been since 1987. It doesn't mean WE won't go out and buy the albums. We're their core audience. And, it doesn't mean the new albums suck. I loved SYW. I thought it was their strongest album since "Tusk." But, if, say, "Behind The Mask" is considered a failure by the band because it only sold a million in the US, what does that make the subsequent studio albums for all involved?

Also, I'm saying that the band COULD exist without Stevie and Lindsey (not that it SHOULD). The band had a fairly successful career prior to 1975. They weren't setting the world on fire, but they were making a good living recording casual albums and touring on a regular basis. Every now and then they got on television and had a song that got lots of radio air play. I think they knew they could be a huge band, but were opting to have fun making music in a relaxed atmosphere. Similarly, the band seemed to be playing the big shows 1990.
You cite the SYW record sales vs. rumours whereas the actual argument should be versus time or versus any of the pre BN albums. Either way SYW sold anywherre from 3 times to 10 times as much as any of those albums.
Did it? I think "Mystery To Me" may have sold more copies. It went platinum in 1977, and I bet it's sold more since being issued on CD in the 1990s. I thought I read "Bare Trees" went patinum, too. I'm also pretty sure "Mask" sold more copies, but that was everyone but Lindsey, which could add to the argument that unless it's the classic five, ALL five, the album will receive a luke-warm reception. In any event, when I say "Rumours" I mean the whole era, not just the album. Of all the Mac albums in which Lindsey, and most likely Stevie, was a featured player, SYW sold the least.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Umm, they never toured in support of "Time." They only toured PRIOR to the release of "Time," and those tours were mainly done to build chops, to make the band a world-class working band. So "Time" this part of your argument holds absolutely no weight.

Let me repeat myself: I don't recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. or ANY tour for that matter that sold out the majority of such world-known arenas as Madison Square Garden and the Staples Center (the way the Say You Will Tour did with Lindsey and Stevie in the band)
can you dispute that legitimately??? If not, then i've made my point..


I don't think people would have been willing to pay attention to Fleetwood Mac without it being in the context of Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lindsey Buckingham, and Stevie Nicks. ALL FIVE. And, I stand by my statement that they only want to hear THOSE FIVE playing the BIG HITS from 1975-1987. Outside of that, it's potty break time.


With all due respect to Mick, John, and Christine... If the 3 of them went on tour without Stevie and Lindsey, they would not have the success without Stevie and Lindsey.. They might sell a few more tickets because Christine would be there, but they certainly couldn't come close to selling out 130 dates... as for solo Stevie, while she probably couldn't do the same as a solo artist, she can certainly sell out a good many venue, as proof in all of her solo tours, including TISL - 4 years after "The Dance"...


That's why David Spade said that if she got any fatter they would make her an honorary member of Heart :p Stevie was considered a fat, has-been whou couldn't sing anymore in 1995 by LOADS of people. She was a joke.
Ok, you are going WAY too far with this... Stevie was never a joke... maybe in your mind and in David Spade's mind she was, but not by the general public.. Stevie was also looked at as a great singer/songwriter.. She was never successful enough for people to really care about the weight thing to the point in which you are trying to make it seem.. and ceryainly not to the point where her "image" took a "big hit" :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

In reality, didn't Stevie have a deal with RCA? Didn't she once talk about her father having to get her out of it?


Yes, she did. AND - BN was breaking in Birmingham. Would that break have gone anywhere - who can say for sure. BUT, the songs they contibuted to FM FM were mostly already there and they are amongst their signature songs like Rhiannon, ISA, and Landslide. So, that is a pretty stellar line up to release when you are breaking somewhere in the country. But, that is all speculation and I, for one, am happy they joined FM because no matter how talented they ALL are individually, the five together are FAR more than the mere sum of the parts. There is indeed "magic" all around them if I do say so myself.

[LiquidBlue5000]

So what? I still prefer "Time" to SA, and I'm not alone.
How nice for you and these other 49,999 people that you speak for... We can ask the other over 500,000 who bought Street Angel what they think... :rolleyes:


Mick and John don't get royalties. They make their money from touring.
Exactly.. so better for them that Stevie and Lindsey were around in 1997, 2003, and 2004...


In any event, with "Time" vs. SA, it's not like "Time" was the only Mac album without Stevie. I know that "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" both sold more than SA, so it can be done.

Then you have to sorta wonder what kind of sales numbers "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" would have had if Stevie was involved, don't you?

Tell me, has ANY Fleetwood Mac album without Stevie sold better than one in which she was NOT involved?? i thought not... :rolleyes:


You mean the quarter to half filled venues she played in 1994?


Nah, they were about 3/4 filled.. but anyway, i think it's better to sell out 3/4 of Jones Beach than to sell out 3/4 of some obscure club in bumblefuck... don't you?


Disjointed as it may be, I'd certainly take "Time" over SA in a heartbeat.

Again, how nice for you...

[SteveMacD]

Let me repeat myself: I don't recall an over 130-date "Time" tour in the 90's.. or ANY tour for that matter that sold out the majority of such world-known arenas as Madison Square Garden and the Staples Center (the way the Say You Will Tour did with Lindsey and Stevie in the band)
can you dispute that legitimately??? If not, then i've made my point..

Sorry, but there are a lot of variables. It's not black and white for me. As I've said, they never toured in support of "Time," so really it's apples and oranges. The early tours weren't necessarily meant to be huge tours. They were meant to help them develop as a band, and make some money. But, just as Lindsey outside of Fleetwood Mac or Stevie outside of Fleetwood Mac would not have been able to sell out MSG or Staples between 1988-1996, I doubt that Fleetwood Mac without Stevie would have sold out MSG or Staples. Now, they DID sell out Wembly in 1990, without Lindsey. What does that tell me? So long as there are at least two singers from the "Rumours" band, Fleetwood Mac will sell lots of tickets to shows, but that may not translate into album sales.
With all due respect to Mick, John, and Christine... If the 3 of them went on tour without Stevie and Lindsey, they would not have the success without Stevie and Lindsey.. They might sell a few more tickets because Christine would be there, but they certainly couldn't come close to selling out 130 dates...
That's hard for me to say. Since Christine didn't tour with the "Time" band, it's hard to say how well they would have done if she had been there. But "Time" band aside, they may have been able to sell out shows without Stevie and Lindsey. It depends on who's touring with them. I could EASILY see a tour of Mick, John, Christine, and Eric Clapton selling out shows as Fleetwood Mac.
as for solo Stevie, while she probably couldn't do the same as a solo artist, she can certainly sell out a good many venue, as proof in all of her solo tours, including TISL - 4 years after "The Dance"...
Yes, after she was deemed to be a respectable artist again. "The Dance" gave everyone in the band a new lease on their careers. So, for me, it's not a fair comparison to say that Stevie 2001 had more star power than Fleetwood Mac 1994.
Ok, you are going WAY too far with this... Stevie was never a joke... maybe in your mind and in David Spade's mind she was, but not by the general public.. Stevie was also looked at as a great singer/songwriter.. She was never successful enough for people to really care about the weight thing to the point in which you are trying to make it seem.. and ceryainly not to the point where her "image" took a "big hit" :rolleyes:
Okay, if I'm wrong, why did so many people laugh at the joke? Why were the reviews especially brutal? Why do I see so many used copies of SA? :shrug:

[SteveMacD]

Then you have to sorta wonder what kind of sales numbers "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" would have had if Stevie was involved, don't you?

Tell me, has ANY Fleetwood Mac album without Stevie sold better than one in which she was NOT involved?? i thought not... :rolleyes:
I think "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" each sold more than SYW and possibly BTM, but I'm not positive. In any event, I think both albums are fine with who was on them. I don't think Stevie could have added anything to either.

[thepoetinmyhear]

I think "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" each sold more than SYW and possibly BTM, but I'm not positive. In any event, I think both albums are fine with who was on them. I don't think Stevie could have added anything to either.

I'm really not sure about those numbers. Do you remember where you read that mystery to me went platinum? I've checked and can't find anything, not to mention Mick specifically saying in his book that they were a band that the record company to count on to sell 300,000 units, nothing more, nothing less before SN and LB joined. I know his book is not factually accurate but I would take his word over someone who wasn't in the band and hasn't produced the data yet.

[Hawkeye]

OK if I quoted some of this stuff Id be here all night, so I'll just speak from memory:

LiquidBlue Im gonna try to be nice becuase doing the text messaging thing was SOO freaking nice of you in Vegas, BUT what youa re saying is quite frankly the best word I can think of is retarded. Really, to say that No One cares about the pre 75 Fleetwood Mac band is ridiculous. You like to use facts here are some:.

- I hear Hypnotised and Oh Well on the radio more then almost any other FM song.

- Peter Green makes more top 100 guitarists lists then Lindsey

- Mystery to Me, Bare Trees and Future Games all went either gold or platnum, they were quite popular, not to mention they had 2 NUMBER ONE singles in England in the late 60's.

- And Most Importantly FORGET ALL ABOUT SALES, they dont matter! I believe NSYNC broke some kind of sales RECORD for one of their albums, are you gonna try and pass them off as the greatest band ever because of that. Sales mean shit. And if you have to bring up sales Fleetwood Mac without BuckinghamNicks did much better then BuckinghamNicks without Fleetwood Mac.

[SteveMacD]

I'm really not sure about those numbers. Do you remember where you read that mystery to me went platinum? I've checked and can't find anything, not to mention Mick specifically saying in his book that they were a band that the record company to count on to sell 300,000 units, nothing more, nothing less before SN and LB joined. I know his book is not factually accurate but I would take his word over someone who wasn't in the band and hasn't produced the data yet.
You know, I read so much that I don't always remember where I've read something. I do remember in the cases of "Bare Trees" and "Mystery To Me" that both experienced a sales boom after 1977, due to the success of Fleetwood Mac and a solo Bob Welch.

[dissention]

Ok, you are going WAY too far with this... Stevie was never a joke... maybe in your mind and in David Spade's mind she was, but not by the general public..

Well, that's just not true. She had become a joke by the early-nineties, and it was only exacerbated by her appearance at the inauguration. Thankfully she got over that hump, but a joke she was.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Well, that's just not true. She had become a joke by the early-nineties, and it was only exacerbated by her appearance at the inauguration. Thankfully she got over that hump, but a joke she was.


She's still a joke in some circles. I was talking to a fella out west and he asked me about who my favorite singer was. I said Stevie. He made a fat joke and then said "The goat from South Park, right? Baaaaaaa"

[SteveMacD]

She's still a joke in some circles. I was talking to a fella out west and he asked me about who my favorite singer was. I said Stevie. He made a fat joke and then said "The goat from South Park, right? Baaaaaaa"
Bob & Tom had a bit about the Stevie Nicks alarm clock. Tim Wilson had a joke about Uncle BS, who was telling a story about the Salem witch trials where he says "burn the bitch dressed like Stevie Nicks." Hell, I read a SYW concert review that was linked from here where somebody said they wondered what happened to Christine, but it became apparent that Stevie had eaten her. And, these are just off the top of my head. So, there are people who still consider her a joke. BTW, I don't happen to be one of them.

[Regina]

must any discussion bring out all the crap that comes out in every FM argument?

Now, we're bringing up Stevie's weight and appearance again. What the living hell does that have to do with some of us not wanting to believe the rumors that this particular "lineup" of Fleetwood Mac might be over?

I love the Buckingham Nicks era of Fleetwood Mac. I don't want to think that I will never see them perform live again. It makes me sad. That doesn't take away from the Peter Green era, the Christine McVie era, the Bob Welch era, the Danny Kirwan era or the Time era (and any others I may have missed;-) They were all very different groups, IMO, and all deserve respect as part of the HISTORY of this group we know as Fleetwood Mac. The fact of the matter is--in all their versions--they were able to capture fans that are not only life-long fans but RABID life-long fans. Ready to fight to the death, apparently, to prove theirs was somehow the BEST. Well, the best is subjective. The BuckinghamNicks version touched my soul. That's all I know. That's all I care about. If a different era is your thing--you have your own personal reasons and that's of equal importance to you.

But, folks, a little respect here, please--in the argument process. Jackasses will always tell jokes. It's not funny that a woman known for her beauty was once torn down to the point she didn't want to perform anymore. It borders on tragic.

It's equally un-funny to keep bringing it up as a point to score in an argument.

[thepoetinmyhear]

OK if I quoted some of this stuff Id be here all night, so I'll just speak from memory:

LiquidBlue Im gonna try to be nice becuase doing the text messaging thing was SOO freaking nice of you in Vegas, BUT what youa re saying is quite frankly the best word I can think of is retarded. Really, to say that No One cares about the pre 75 Fleetwood Mac band is ridiculous. You like to use facts here are some:.

- I hear Hypnotised and Oh Well on the radio more then almost any other FM song.

- Peter Green makes more top 100 guitarists lists then Lindsey

- Mystery to Me, Bare Trees and Future Games all went either gold or platnum, they were quite popular, not to mention they had 2 NUMBER ONE singles in England in the late 60's.

- And Most Importantly FORGET ALL ABOUT SALES, they dont matter! I believe NSYNC broke some kind of sales RECORD for one of their albums, are you gonna try and pass them off as the greatest band ever because of that. Sales mean shit. And if you have to bring up sales Fleetwood Mac without BuckinghamNicks did much better then BuckinghamNicks without Fleetwood Mac.

You missed a sign a few exits back because you're in the wrong thread. This whole thing is about SALES. That is what we are discussing, is a fleetwood mac sans Stevie and Lindsey commercially viable. So, hop on the boat or turn around.

I also have mentioned many times, that the focus is on the US, not anywhere else, just the US so any mention of UK number ones are irrelevant.

The fact that you hear Oh Well and Hypnotized is great, but I don't believe I have heard any non-rumours line-up songs on the radio ever (closest I've come is hearing Welch's solo version of Sentimental Lady). Personal experience can't ever be argued as general fact.

Also to call Liquid retarded because YOU MISREAD HIS POST is a faux pas. This thread has clearly acknowledged that there are people who are aware but they are a small, small fraction of the amount that are familiar with a SN/LB FM.

As for Peter Green making more lists than Lindsey, he's a better guitarist and I would hope that critics (people who are paid to know music) are familiar with the pre SN/LB FM. This thread, however, again, is about the general music buying populace.

So in essence, your arguments make zero sense in the context of this thread. Please try again.

[catinthedark]

I still dont get how you say she is referring to EFO when she mentions "Monica" in the Destiny Rules Doc...
Yes she says "It's totally about me now...and that I lost tomorrow to Monica"


Which IMO implies she lost a scheduled meeting she had with this mysterious "Monica" who I think is an attorney--since Karen is talking about Stevie's attorneys and all that

Chris

I agree, Chris. I do think she may say Monica (I didn't before the captioning proved me otherwise), but I don't think just because she says it in one scene, and thenthey cut to her singing EFO in the next scene, that the two are related. I mean, not every cut in that doc related to the cut before.

JMO.

On edit: I also didn't realize she said "Mix Monica." Is it MIX or MISS? Not to open another can of worms... I still don't think EFO is Monica. Nyah! :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

That's why David Spade said that if she got any fatter they would make her an honorary member of Heart :pHe also said he went to see Fleetwood Mac at that time (the Bekka/Billy/Dave era), and the show "sucked" because the band was made up of "a couple of guys who looked like Los Lobos, and some contest winner."

[ontheEdgeof17]

He also said he went to see Fleetwood Mac at that time (the Bekka/Billy/Dave era), and the show "sucked" because the band was made up of "a couple of guys who looked like Los Lobos, and some contest winner."


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love all incarnations of the band, but I still can't help from laughing at the jokes.

[dudden22]

That's why David Spade said that if she got any fatter they would make her an honorary member of Heart

Ok you are now quoting a midget has-been doing credit card commercials.

[dissention]

He also said he went to see Fleetwood Mac at that time (the Bekka/Billy/Dave era), and the show "sucked" because the band was made up of "a couple of guys who looked like Los Lobos, and some contest winner."

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I love it.

[catinthedark]

Gah. Just read through this whole thread.

And now I'm picking up the pieces of my brain and going home.

[Johnny Stew]

How nice for you and these other 49,999 people that you speak for... We can ask the other over 500,000 who bought Street Angel what they think... :rolleyes:I should read the rest of the thread before I reply, in case someone else already clarified... but I'm trying to get caught up. My apologies if i'm repeating anyone.

'Street Angel's' actual sales figures are around 226,000.
It did sell over four times as many copies as 'Time' (which sold 50,000) though, but 'SA' hasn't sold a literal 500,000 copies yet.
The Gold certification is indeed for units shipped, not sold.

[Sugar]

You missed a sign a few exits back because you're in the wrong thread. This whole thing is about SALES. That is what we are discussing, is a fleetwood mac sans Stevie and Lindsey commercially viable.

Commercially viable? Of course the other incarnations were commercially viable. Now that that's settled...


I also have mentioned many times, that the focus is on the US, not anywhere else, just the US so any mention of UK number ones are irrelevant..

Why is the UK irrelevant? You do know that there are quite a few UK fans on this board, as well as from elsewhere in the world right? Who are you to deem them irrelevent? Except of course, that it better serves your argument...

[dudden22]

But, folks, a little respect here, please--in the argument process. Jackasses will always tell jokes. It's not funny that a woman known for her beauty was once torn down to the point she didn't want to perform anymore. It borders on tragic.

It's equally un-funny to keep bringing it up as a point to score in an argument.

Amen. :nod:

[SteveMacD]

The fact that you hear Oh Well and Hypnotized is great, but I don't believe I have heard any non-rumours line-up songs on the radio ever (closest I've come is hearing Welch's solo version of Sentimental Lady). Personal experience can't ever be argued as general fact.
Well, I live in Ohio, and I've heard a few non-Rumours era songs. "Skies The Limit" and "Hypnotized" come to mind, but I've also heard "Oh Well" and even "Sunny Side Of Heaven" a few times. But even with the Rumours-era stuff, I only hear a few songs, namely Dreams, GDW, GYOW, YMLF, Everywhere, and Lindsey's version of "Oh Well." And that's about it. I never hear anything from "Tusk" or "Mirage," and have only heard "Peacekeeper" and "Say You Will" once each.

[thepoetinmyhear]

Commercially viable? Of course the other incarnations were commercially viable. Now that that's settled...

Hmm, because you say so? No, I don't think so. End of discussion. :laugh:

Why is the UK irrelevant? You do know that there are quite a few UK fans on this board, as well as from elsewhere in the world right? Who are you to deem them irrelevent? Except of course, that it better serves your argument...

It was a stipulation for the sake of this argument, waay back when. Read through the thread and you'll see. I acknowledge that a non SN/LB FM would be possible in the UK and I don't think anyone disagrees with that so there is no need for any argument there. The question is would it be possible in the US and the answer is no.

[thepoetinmyhear]

Well, I live in Ohio, and I've heard a few non-Rumours era songs. "Skies The Limit" and "Hypnotized" come to mind, but I've also heard "Oh Well" and even "Sunny Side Of Heaven" a few times. But even with the Rumours-era stuff, I only hear a few songs, namely Dreams, GDW, GYOW, YMLF, Everywhere, and Lindsey's version of "Oh Well." And that's about it. I never hear anything from "Tusk" or "Mirage," and have only heard "Peacekeeper" and "Say You Will" once each.


Well I hear Gypsy the most of any FM song. This is why what we hear on the radio won't work in terms of arguing for a general populace.

[SteveMacD]

He also said he went to see Fleetwood Mac at that time (the Bekka/Billy/Dave era), and the show "sucked" because the band was made up of "a couple of guys who looked like Los Lobos, and some contest winner."
:laugh: I forgot about that one! Again, I think that Fleetwood Mac as a whole and Stevie Nicks were viewed as jokes up until "The Dance." The alternative movement really pushed them out, even with Hole and Smashing Pumpkins covering Stevie's Mac material and with Lindsey jamming with REM.

What I find funny is that we're essentially arguing about which was more dismal a failure. In the end, you could combine the sales of SA and Time, multiply them by four, and they would still be relative dismal failures. Either way, people weren't coming out in droves flocking to see either Stevie or Fleetwood Mac. "The Dance" breathed new life into their careers.

[Johnny Stew]

I think that Fleetwood Mac as a whole and Stevie Nicks were viewed as jokes up until "The Dance." The alternative movement really pushed them out....The Punk movement had pretty much put FM into "dinosaur" status in the late '70s, too.

Bands and solo artists fall out of fashion all of the time. The most talented ones claw their way back at some point.
And if you hang in there long enough, you eventually reach "legend" status (Rolling Stones, U2, The Eagles, Aerosmith, etc.) and you can survive changing tastes and lackluster sales (quick: someone tell me the last time the Stones had a massive hit single!).

[SteveMacD]

Now, we're bringing up Stevie's weight and appearance again.

But, folks, a little respect here, please--in the argument process. Jackasses will always tell jokes. It's not funny that a woman known for her beauty was once torn down to the point she didn't want to perform anymore. It borders on tragic.

It's equally un-funny to keep bringing it up as a point to score in an argument.
I know some fans are sensitive to this point. If we're being honest, it was a major problem for Stevie and it made her in the minds of some to be a joke. Stevie looked like hell, sounded like hell, and really was acting rather bizarre between the time she left Fleetwood Mac and the time she came back. But, that IS only half of what's said. The big story is that she was able to get back to a healthy place and has stayed there. She looks good, sounds good, and is the Stevie we fell in love with. Hey, even she said that sometimes even she is allowed to fall. No, she's not the thin pin-up girl she was in the '70s, but nobody honestly expects her to be that at her age.

[SteveMacD]

(quick: someone tell me the last time the Stones had a massive hit single!).
"Mixed Emotions" in 1989!

[SteveMacD]

Well I hear Gypsy the most of any FM song. This is why what we hear on the radio won't work in terms of arguing for a general populace.
Plus, different places seem to have different tastes in what gets played. The classic rock station in Cincinnati plays a horrific amount of CCR. The one in Dayton plays a horrific amount of Styx, although the one before that played a horrific amount Led Zepplin, while the hard rock/classic rock plays a horrific amount of Ozzy and AC/DC. In any event, none of them play nearly enough Fleetwood Mac. Hell, that's why I listen to NPR and talk radio!

[Johnny Stew]

"Mixed Emotions" in 1989!17 years ago. Which, as I'm sure you know, made my point. :nod:

[SteveMacD]

Why is the UK irrelevant? You do know that there are quite a few UK fans on this board, as well as from elsewhere in the world right? Who are you to deem them irrelevent? Except of course, that it better serves your argument...
There was this great TV show from the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. called "Made In Canada." It was about a television production company. Anyway, the CEO of the company said "Here are the markets that matter." He then pointed to a map of the USA. One of his workers said, "Well, what about the U.K?" "Is it in the United States?" "Well, no." "Then it doesn't matter." The point is that while other countries do make a difference, the USA is the promise land for the entertainment industry. An artist really hasn't made it until they've made it in America. I'm not saying it's right, it's just they way it is.

[SteveMacD]

It was a stipulation for the sake of this argument, waay back when. Read through the thread and you'll see. I acknowledge that a non SN/LB FM would be possible in the UK and I don't think anyone disagrees with that so there is no need for any argument there. The question is would it be possible in the US and the answer is no.
What if it were fronted by Steve Winwood, Ann Wilson, and Eric Clapton? Now, I know that would never happen, but the point is that if there was enough star power that would be worthy enough to be associated with the Fleetwood Mac brand, why wouldn't it work? BTW, I'm in no way advocating this. My point here is purely academic. I still think it should be as close to the "Rumours" band as possible, although I'd LOVE to see a Mick, John, Stevie, Lindsey, and Peter tour someday.

[MacMan]

I'm really not sure about those numbers. Do you remember where you read that mystery to me went platinum? I've checked and can't find anything, not to mention Mick specifically saying in his book that they were a band that the record company to count on to sell 300,000 units, nothing more, nothing less before SN and LB joined. I know his book is not factually accurate but I would take his word over someone who wasn't in the band and hasn't produced the data yet.

As of 2004 - from this Billboard Chart Stars thing I bought from the billboard site.

Future Games has been certified Gold = 500,000
Bare Trees has been certified Platinum = 1,000,000
Penguin, not certified
Mystery To Me has been certified Gold = 500,000
Heroes Are Hard To Find, not certified

[Hawkeye]

There was this great TV show from the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. called "Made In Canada." It was about a television production company. Anyway, the CEO of the company said "Here are the markets that matter." He then pointed to a map of the USA. One of his workers said, "Well, what about the U.K?" "Is it in the United States?" "Well, no." "Then it doesn't matter." The point is that while other countries do make a difference, the USA is the promise land for the entertainment industry. An artist really hasn't made it until they've made it in America. I'm not saying it's right, it's just they way it is.

hmmmm... I wonder why that is. Actually if I was an artist, I'd kind of want to be big in a country like China. Then you're not selling millions of records, you're selling BILLIONS of records :laugh: But seriously, why isnt a country like China more marketed too considering it HUGE population of potential buyers.

[Hawkeye]

You missed a sign a few exits back because you're in the wrong thread. This whole thing is about SALES. That is what we are discussing, is a fleetwood mac sans Stevie and Lindsey commercially viable. So, hop on the boat or turn around.

I also have mentioned many times, that the focus is on the US, not anywhere else, just the US so any mention of UK number ones are irrelevant.

The fact that you hear Oh Well and Hypnotized is great, but I don't believe I have heard any non-rumours line-up songs on the radio ever (closest I've come is hearing Welch's solo version of Sentimental Lady). Personal experience can't ever be argued as general fact.

Also to call Liquid retarded because YOU MISREAD HIS POST is a faux pas. This thread has clearly acknowledged that there are people who are aware but they are a small, small fraction of the amount that are familiar with a SN/LB FM.

As for Peter Green making more lists than Lindsey, he's a better guitarist and I would hope that critics (people who are paid to know music) are familiar with the pre SN/LB FM. This thread, however, again, is about the general music buying populace.

So in essence, your arguments make zero sense in the context of this thread. Please try again..


No, not at all. I know this is about sales, and i said in the end, it shouldnt be, but first I mentioned the great sales of Mystery To Me, Future Games and Bare Trees. And airplay, and Guitar lists, all tie into the sales/popularity thing. So I didnt misread any posts by you or LiquidBlue.

[thepoetinmyhear]

Wow, way to glaze over basicallly all my points.

And to respond to the one you made again, yes you did misread the posts and then you were rude about it, specifically when you said,

LiquidBlue Im gonna try to be nice becuase doing the text messaging thing was SOO freaking nice of you in Vegas, BUT what youa re saying is quite frankly the best word I can think of is retarded. Really, to say that No One cares about the pre 75 Fleetwood Mac band is ridiculous

Liquid and I acknowledge that there are some people who care about those eras (specifically his 49,999 comments and I've said it several times), but it is a small, small fraction compared to those who care about SN/LB.

[strandinthewind]

and I thought I was the only cantankerous one around here :laugh: :laugh:

I pass the torch :woohoo: :woohoo:

[thepoetinmyhear]

As of 2004 - from this Billboard Chart Stars thing I bought from the billboard site.

Future Games has been certified Gold = 500,000
Bare Trees has been certified Platinum = 1,000,000
Penguin, not certified
Mystery To Me has been certified Gold = 500,000
Heroes Are Hard To Find, not certified

Thanks, I didn't have those figures before. I wonder why Bare Trees did so much better than Mystery to Me. That seems so weird. In light of this new evidence I will say this, that the current level of fandom appears to care just as much about SN/LB as fans in the 70's cared about having pre SN/LB FM records.

[MacMan]

The Punk movement had pretty much put FM into "dinosaur" status in the late '70s, too.

Bands and solo artists fall out of fashion all of the time. The most talented ones claw their way back at some point.
And if you hang in there long enough, you eventually reach "legend" status (Rolling Stones, U2, The Eagles, Aerosmith, etc.) and you can survive changing tastes and lackluster sales (quick: someone tell me the last time the Stones had a massive hit single!).

Never mind a hit single for the stones... Their new albums when they put them out generally only go platinum... now for the "biggest rock band in the universe" or what ever they are referred to, that's not that great....

[thepoetinmyhear]

What if it were fronted by Steve Winwood, Ann Wilson, and Eric Clapton? Now, I know that would never happen, but the point is that if there was enough star power that would be worthy enough to be associated with the Fleetwood Mac brand, why wouldn't it work? BTW, I'm in no way advocating this. My point here is purely academic. I still think it should be as close to the "Rumours" band as possible, although I'd LOVE to see a Mick, John, Stevie, Lindsey, and Peter tour someday.


That group would be viable and before anyone asks I will also concede that a line up in which SN/LB/and CM were replaced by Buddha, Jesus and Vishnu might also sell well in terms of touring but the in fighting would destroy them before they released their first album.

[MacMan]

There was this great TV show from the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. called "Made In Canada." It was about a television production company. Anyway, the CEO of the company said "Here are the markets that matter." He then pointed to a map of the USA. One of his workers said, "Well, what about the U.K?" "Is it in the United States?" "Well, no." "Then it doesn't matter." The point is that while other countries do make a difference, the USA is the promise land for the entertainment industry. An artist really hasn't made it until they've made it in America. I'm not saying it's right, it's just they way it is.

That's true... and I don't know why... because markets combined outside the US dwarf the US... Case in point [sort of] This latest Star Wars movie took in 158 mil the first 4 days in the US (which is huge) but combined outside the US it took in more.. but you never read anything about that - you only hear what it took in in north america... I think it has something to do with the media here and it's far reach. If it makes it here in north america, well then it must be worthy for some reason.

[SteveMacD]

Liquid and I acknowledge that there are some people who care about those eras (specifically his 49,999 comments and I've said it several times), but it is a small, small fraction compared to those who care about SN/LB.
I guess this is the point in which I tend to disagree. I mean, I think John Q. Public will always prefer Fleetwood Mac with Stevie and Lindsey, to be sure. But, in terms of the "Time" band, I don't think people didn't care. I think people didn't know. The band was very well received at the two shows I got to see, and I've heard the same from others who aren't necessarily Fleetwood Mac fans. Billy said in his Q&A that the audience reaction was overwhelmingly positive towards the band and especially Bekka. The biggest complaint I heard both times, which I thought was wonderfully weird, is that they should have done more NEW songs. But if a band doesn't get any press, airplay, or support from the record company, who is going to know that there's an album out? It wasn't reviewed in Rolling Stone. I knew about the album, but then I was paying real close attention.

In other words, I don't think the whole "Time" band was given a fair chance. Let's not forget that at the end of the day, this was pretty much a brand new band. While people may have been skeptical, if they had known, who's to say they wouldn't have given it a fair shot? I mean, I hesitated before I had a Vanilla Coke, but I liked it in the end. We'll never know what would have happened had the band gotten press, airplay, support from the record company, and had they toured in support of the album. I don't think it would have sold millions, but it would have sold more than it did. It's like they released the record and then split-up. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad we got "The Dance," and I'm glad Lindsey and Stevie are back in the fold. But to say that the only reason "Time" didn't do well was because of who wasn't on it is far too oversimplified. There are a million reasons why some things are hits and others are misses.

As for the success of SA vs. "Time," SA SHOULD have sold more copies. Stevie had made herself into a fairly successful brand name, for which I think she deserves a lot of credit. As as solo artist, she didn't have the trouble of introducing new personnel to the public. People don't buy Stevie Nicks ablums or tickets because of who's in her band. They go for her. Her album got reviewed. She got press during the album's run. She was even on featured on ET. Her record company gave her SOME support. And, she actually toured in support of the album. She had way more advantages than Fleetwood Mac. While SA sold more than "Time," the numbers are still nothing to be proud of.

[SteveMacD]

That group would be viable and before anyone asks I will also concede that a line up in which SN/LB/and CM were replaced by Buddha, Jesus and Vishnu might also sell well in terms of touring but the in fighting would destroy them before they released their first album.
Hmmm. I don't think you'd get Buddha to be in a band, as he felt entertainment, especially music, only clouded the mind, distracting one from achieving true enlightenment. The only real in fighting I could see would be when John snaps at Jesus for turning his bottle of water into wine.

[ducks and covers, knowing that's offensive on several levels...]

[SteveMacD]

Thanks, I didn't have those figures before. I wonder why Bare Trees did so much better than Mystery to Me. That seems so weird. In light of this new evidence I will say this, that the current level of fandom appears to care just as much about SN/LB as fans in the 70's cared about having pre SN/LB FM records.
But you're reading more into the numbers than you should be. While I think "Bare Trees" may have initially sold 500,000, the others sold around 250,000 on initial release. It was after the success of the "Rumours" band and Bob Welch's solo career that people went back and bought those albums.

[LiquidBlue5000]

I know some fans are sensitive to this point. If we're being honest, it was a major problem for Stevie and it made her in the minds of some to be a joke. Stevie looked like hell, sounded like hell, and really was acting rather bizarre between the time she left Fleetwood Mac and the time she came back.

What the heck are you even talking about?? sounded like hell??? Some of her BEST stage performances ever came during the Street Angel tour... her voice was solid as a rock and you could feel every word she was singing.. as far as her looks go, i personally think she looked like crap in '86 during the RAL tour compared to how she looked in 94-96, so don't speak about these things as if they are fact.. they are not fact, they are just your "opinions".. got it?

[LiquidBlue5000]

Wow, way to glaze over basicallly all my points.

And to respond to the one you made again, yes you did misread the posts and then you were rude about it, specifically when you said,



Liquid and I acknowledge that there are some people who care about those eras (specifically his 49,999 comments and I've said it several times), but it is a small, small fraction compared to those who care about SN/LB.

exactly Mike... and this is obvious when looking at the record sale numbers and ticket sale numbers for a Lindsey/Stevie Fleetwood Mac vs. a non Lindsey/Stevie Fleetwood Mac...

[LiquidBlue5000]

OK if I quoted some of this stuff Id be here all night, so I'll just speak from memory:

LiquidBlue Im gonna try to be nice becuase doing the text messaging thing was SOO freaking nice of you in Vegas, BUT what youa re saying is quite frankly the best word I can think of is retarded. Really, to say that No One cares about the pre 75 Fleetwood Mac band is ridiculous.


The majority of the Fleetwood Mac listening public doesn't... of course SOME FM fans care about that era.. and heck, maybe some even care about the "Time" era as well... but i like to use facts in my posts when it comes to stuff like this.. and the fact is, that Lindsey and Stevie have sold millions of records for Fleetwood Mac... They have sold millions and millions of dollars worth of concert tickets for Fleetwood Mac.. Peter Green, Bekka Bramlett, Billy Burnette, Rick Vito, and all the rest can never say the same.. That is fact!
It is indisputable...

So, if you enjoy your pre-1975 Fleetwood Mac, then more power to you.. but please stop trying to fool the masses by claiming that that era was JUST as successful as a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac or that the general public cares JUST AS MUCH about that era as a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac era.. because that is simply untrue.. and i have the sales figures to back up my claims..

[SteveMacD]

What the heck are you even talking about?? sounded like hell??? Some of her BEST stage performances ever came during the Street Angel tour... her voice was solid as a rock and you could feel every word she was singing.. as far as her looks go, i personally think she looked like crap in '86 during the RAL tour compared to how she looked in 94-96, so don't speak about these things as if they are fact.. they are not fact, they are just your "opinions".. got it?
And the opinions of a lot of people who saw the shows. Anyway, if she was in such good shape, why did Stevie herself decided that SHE needed to change? She got off the Klon, quit smoking, lost a lot of weight, and started working with a vocal coach. When she played to the public again, with Fleetwood Mac, people were talking about how great she sounded and looked. Why would they be saying that? Could it be because there was a time when she didn't look or sound that great?

[LiquidBlue5000]

And the opinions of a lot of people who saw the shows. Anyway, if she was in such good shape, why did Stevie herself decided that SHE needed to change? She got off the Klon, quit smoking, lost a lot of weight, and started working with a vocal coach. When she played to the public again, with Fleetwood Mac, people were talking about how great she sounded and looked. Why would they be saying that? Could it be because there was a time when she didn't look or sound that great?

Yes well in my opinion she didn't sound good during the "TimeSpace" tour, the "Rock A Little" tour, and the "Behind The Mask" tour... but as far as her needing to change her looks after Street Angel, that was HER issue... if it made her feel better to lose 15lbs, get a facelift, and straighten her hair out for "The Dance", then so be it... I thought she looked ok during "Street Angel", but looks are subjective...

you are claiming that she became a "joke" in some peoples minds because of her looks, her voice, and her "bizarre behavior" during the 90's and that is completely your opinion... was she at her best in 1994? probably not... but i don't think it's fair to speculate that Stevie was ever a joke... she certainly wasn't a "joke" in my eyes...

[Kelly]

Yes, I did notice how refreshed and energized she looked in Vegas. She just looked happier and more serene all around. That 2+ years of touring with FM had to have started taking it's toll on her. She must have been happy to have the stage to herself and the one making all the decisions instead of having to concede all the time.
I have to admit here people (and don't hate me) but I'd be perfectly happy to see her touring solo for the rest of her career...after all I've always been a Stevie fan before FM so it's totally fine with me. I'd rather her not share the stage with anyone. It's all about HER!


I tend to think it was the travelling involved with the sYW tour that made her haggard, then any unhappiness with being with the Mac members. Stevie has said in the past that she feels more comfortable onstage with FM, being a part of a band, rather than carrying all the responsiblity on her shoulders. I think that after this summer, IF Stevie embarks on any type of touring, it will be with the Mac. Stevie asked Henley to join her for some reason. I know there are people who think solo dates would have been released eventually but if Henley hadn't bailed, I do not believe we would have anything solo.

[SteveMacD]

The majority of the Fleetwood Mac listening public doesn't... of course SOME FM fans care about that era.. and heck, maybe some even care about the "Time" era as well... but i like to use facts in my posts when it comes to stuff like this.. and the fact is, that Lindsey and Stevie have sold millions of records for Fleetwood Mac... They have sold millions and millions of dollars worth of concert tickets for Fleetwood Mac.. Peter Green, Bekka Bramlett, Billy Burnette, Rick Vito, and all the rest can never say the same.. That is fact!
It is indisputable...
Your facts are terribly overly simplified. And, I love how Christine is always ignored in the equation. I could argue, but I don't think your understanding of the music business is such that we could have an intelligent conversation. And, even if I threw out all of the factors that went into why Fleetwood Mac became big, I doubt you'd seriously consider them. There was more behind their success than Stevie and Lindsey.
So, if you enjoy your pre-1975 Fleetwood Mac, then more power to you.. but please stop trying to fool the masses by claiming that that era was JUST as successful as a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac or that the general public cares JUST AS MUCH about that era as a Stevie/Lindsey Fleetwood Mac era.. because that is simply untrue.. and i have the sales figures to back up my claims...
I don't think anybody is arguing that the "Rumours" band isn't the most popular version of Fleetwood Mac, or that the public is less interested in other incarnations. All we're saying is that there is a lot more behind the success of the "Rumours" band than just who was in it. Oh what the hell:

1. Peter Green didn't want to be a hugely successful star. In fact, he loathed the whole idea. He's the guy who wanted to give all of the bands earnings away to Africa. But, even though he didn't have the sales figures, he sure earned the respect of many guitarists, including Lindsey Buckingham who lists him as a major influence. Even Lindsey had a copy of "Then Play On."

2. Prior to 1975, Fleetwood Mac didn't have the same line-up for more than 18 months. It would be hard for any band to have sense of continuity under those circumstances, far less a band identity. That they parted ways with three guitarists mid-tour, and had to cancel two tours didn't help their reputation with the record company or concert promoters. Although, I'm sure it made being a fan a lot more interesting.

3. The band had been on television a couple of times in the USA in 1974, and they had been dealing with a major scandle for most of that year in the music press. Not to mention the band continued to have a radio staple with "Hypnotized." So the band was getting its fair share of exposure. And, the momentum was in their favor. "Heroes Are Hard To Find" was a rushed album that they strained to make. But they had to make it when they did for the band's survival. It was more of a chess move than an artistic statement. Given a choice, I'm sure they would have loved to have more time to craft the right album. That was not the case, and "Heroes" was not the album. And, Bob was planning on leaving the band after the tour anyway.

5. Mick Fleetwood was the manager, which meant there was somebody who was advocating on the band's behalf with the record company and that there wasn't anybody who wasn't in the band calling the shots in the studio. Without this, a studio junkie like Lindsey would never have been able to go nuts and actually put a lot more thought into what they were doing.

6. Fleetwood Mac was releasing a new album every six months or so. Most albums were recorded in a matter of weeks. The first two albums were done in days. I think Bob Welch spent as much time in the recording studio during his ENTIRE tenure as Stevie and Lindsey did on their first album with Fleetwood Mac. Thus, the band wasn't paying attention to production value as they would with Lindsey. This is definately one major area where the addition of Lindsey set the pace for the band.

7. Mick fought very hard with the record company to make the white album a hit. I don't see the addition of Stevie and Lindsey to Fleetwood Mac as being a huge change of direction, musically speaking. The first album with Stevie and Lindsey was an idealized Fleetwood Mac album. One could hear the shadows of the Mac's past rather easily. What they did bring was a sense of confidence, purpose, and direction the band had been lacking. I mean, I hope I'm not the only one who finds it ironic that Fleetwood Mac, a band named after two principle members, joined forces with another band that was also named after its two principle members. In any event, the band believed so much in their album that when they realized the record company wasn't going to be of much help, they hired somebody else to remix "Over My Head," which became a hit single within weeks.

8. Fleetwood Mac had a well-oiled touring machine and Stevie and Lindsey had a great sound guy. The result? A consistent road tour. Given the band's past, this can't be stressed enough. Also, it should be mentioned that if the band didn't pack the house, Mick would often give their earnings back to the promoters. When the white album finally hit, who do you suppose was on the Mac's side.

9. Regarding the latter-day versions: Can one really blame Mick and John? Think of how big they were in Europe in 1970. Third only to the Beatles and Rolling Stones, which means bigger than the Who! Peter Green was THE star of the band. Sure, there was Danny and Jeremy, but people weren't paying to see them. If they could survive that, surely they could survive losing Lindsey, who only had three hit singles. And, they did survive and played to packed houses with Billy and Rick. I could even see them using the same logic with Stevie's departure. After all, Christine had the majority of hit singles, and she stayed around for the studio album. I don't think they realized that the public was now only considering Fleetwood Mac to be just the "Rumours" band. Given their past, it made sense to move on. Maybe "Time" was a good reality check. Still, in the annals of Fleetwood Mac, I don't think that latter versions were any less legitimate. Also, it should be pointed out that the band has had more problems with releasing albums since they fired Mick as manager. There are a lot more people involved in Fleetwood Mac than in 1975. It makes just being a band a lot more difficult. Fleetwood Mac had an ideal situation in 1975, and lucky them and us they took full advantage of it.

[Mari]

Yes well in my opinion she didn't sound good during the "TimeSpace" tour, the "Rock A Little" tour, and the "Behind The Mask" tour... but as far as her needing to change her looks after Street Angel, that was HER issue... if it made her feel better to lose 15lbs, get a facelift, and straighten her hair out for "The Dance", then so be it... I thought she looked ok during "Street Angel", but looks are subjective...

you are claiming that she became a "joke" in some peoples minds because of her looks, her voice, and her "bizarre behavior" during the 90's and that is completely your opinion... was she at her best in 1994? probably not... but i don't think it's fair to speculate that Stevie was ever a joke... she certainly wasn't a "joke" in my eyes...

She certainly was a joke in the eyes of the Dutch press in those days, and I bet it was the same for press of other countries as well :shrug:
Their favorite joke was to mis-spell her name as Niks, a Dutch word meaning "nothing" or in the expression "'t is echt niks" "it's a joke".
Back then I didn't even tell people I was a fan because I was embarrassed!

About the idea that the mac wasn't a hit before 1975, you're obviously talking from an American viewpoint. The Mac were huge over here in the Peter Green days. Several songs from that era you'll still hear daily on the radio here. And I have a big stack of guitarplayer magazines with Peter Green specials that is ten times as much as the few articles about Lindsey.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Your facts are terribly overly simplified.

Well, we can go on for days back and forth and make this a complex, in depth analysis on why the band became a success with Stevie and Lindsey, but that would probably bore everyone else on this board... so, i like to keep it simple...


I could argue, but I don't think your understanding of the music business is such that we could have an intelligent conversation.

How nice of you to say..


There was more behind their success than Stevie and Lindsey.

I don't think anybody is arguing that the "Rumours" band isn't the most popular version of Fleetwood Mac, or that the public is less interested in other incarnations. All we're saying is that there is a lot more behind the success of the "Rumours" band than just who was in it. Oh what the hell:

1. Peter Green didn't want to be a hugely successful star. In fact, he loathed the whole idea. He's the guy who wanted to give all of the bands earnings away to Africa. But, even though he didn't have the sales figures, he sure earned the respect of many guitarists, including Lindsey Buckingham who lists him as a major influence. Even Lindsey had a copy of "Then Play On."

2. Prior to 1975, Fleetwood Mac didn't have the same line-up for more than 18 months. It would be hard for any band to have sense of continuity under those circumstances, far less a band identity. That they parted ways with three guitarists mid-tour, and had to cancel two tours didn't help their reputation with the record company or concert promoters. Although, I'm sure it made being a fan a lot more interesting.

3. The band had been on television a couple of times in the USA in 1974, and they had been dealing with a major scandle for most of that year in the music press. Not to mention the band continued to have a radio staple with "Hypnotized." So the band was getting its fair share of exposure. And, the momentum was in their favor. "Heroes Are Hard To Find" was a rushed album that they strained to make. But they had to make it when they did for the band's survival. It was more of a chess move than an artistic statement. Given a choice, I'm sure they would have loved to have more time to craft the right album. That was not the case, and "Heroes" was not the album. And, Bob was planning on leaving the band after the tour anyway.

5. Mick Fleetwood was the manager, which meant there was somebody who was advocating on the band's behalf with the record company and that there wasn't anybody who wasn't in the band calling the shots in the studio. Without this, a studio junkie like Lindsey would never have been able to go nuts and actually put a lot more thought into what they were doing.

6. Fleetwood Mac was releasing a new album every six months or so. Most albums were recorded in a matter of weeks. The first two albums were done in days. I think Bob Welch spent as much time in the recording studio during his ENTIRE tenure as Stevie and Lindsey did on their first album with Fleetwood Mac. Thus, the band wasn't paying attention to production value as they would with Lindsey. This is definately one major area where the addition of Lindsey set the pace for the band.

7. Mick fought very hard with the record company to make the white album a hit. I don't see the addition of Stevie and Lindsey to Fleetwood Mac as being a huge change of direction, musically speaking. The first album with Stevie and Lindsey was an idealized Fleetwood Mac album. One could hear the shadows of the Mac's past rather easily. What they did bring was a sense of confidence, purpose, and direction the band had been lacking. I mean, I hope I'm not the only one who finds it ironic that Fleetwood Mac, a band named after two principle members, joined forces with another band that was also named after its two principle members. In any event, the band believed so much in their album that when they realized the record company wasn't going to be of much help, they hired somebody else to remix "Over My Head," which became a hit single within weeks.

8. Fleetwood Mac had a well-oiled touring machine and Stevie and Lindsey had a great sound guy. The result? A consistent road tour. Given the band's past, this can't be stressed enough. Also, it should be mentioned that if the band didn't pack the house, Mick would often give their earnings back to the promoters. When the white album finally hit, who do you suppose was on the Mac's side.

9. Regarding the latter-day versions: Can one really blame Mick and John? Think of how big they were in Europe in 1970. Third only to the Beatles and Rolling Stones, which means bigger than the Who! Peter Green was THE star of the band. Sure, there was Danny and Jeremy, but people weren't paying to see them. If they could survive that, surely they could survive losing Lindsey, who only had three hit singles. And, they did survive and played to packed houses with Billy and Rick. I could even see them using the same logic with Stevie's departure. After all, Christine had the majority of hit singles, and she stayed around for the studio album. I don't think they realized that the public was now only considering Fleetwood Mac to be just the "Rumours" band. Given their past, it made sense to move on. Maybe "Time" was a good reality check. Still, in the annals of Fleetwood Mac, I don't think that latter versions were any less legitimate.

That's all fine and dandy... but certainly the strength of Stevie and Lindsey's songwriting and singing ability played into the equation on why the white album and the Rumours album and the Tusk album and the Mirage album and the Tango In The Night album were such successes, right? were all those albums just a series of the different circumstances you listed above?

Of course more played into it that what is obvious... but the way you are making it seem, is that the band's success with Stevie and lindsey is BECAUSE of these factors... and the fact of the matter is, they play a very small role in the overall picture...
so let's take this back to my original comments about this topic:

ChiliD wrote:

"And, so f**ing what if Stevie AND Lindsey call it quits from Fleetwood Mac (they've been there done that already and in both of their cases way too late for my tastes, they both should've just stayed away after the end of the Tusk tour.), Mick & John can find either someone new or some other former members (Peter? Jeremy? Bob Welch? Christine?) to be Fleetwood Mac...after all the band IS called Fleetwood Mac and NOT Buckingham Nicks for Christ's sake."

in which i responded with:

"They should have stayed away after the Tusk tour?? that's just crazy talk...

Without Stevie and Lindsey, there is no Fleetwood Mac... remember the Time album?? neither does anyone else.."

I stand by my original post...

[cliffdweller]

About the idea that the mac wasn't a hit before 1975, you're obviously talking from an American viewpoint. The Mac were huge over here in the Peter Green days.

That may be, but Mick was interested in busting open the American market for a reason...big in Europe does not = $$$ and this is what Mick was interested in. He knew he hit the jackpot with Stevie and Lindsey, he knew they would help to form the new California pop/Eaglesesque sound the Brits were looking for which is why they moved to California in the first place. No, Lindsey and Stevie were integral to the mega stardom success that Fleetwood Mac now claims. Sure, Chris was a hitmaker (and I love Chris!) but she couldn't have shouldered ALL the success with just her songs. And they needed a strong guitarist/frontman/woman to make the whole thing gel anyway. Enter Stevie and Lindsey...

[strandinthewind]

. . . Sure, Chris was a hitmaker (and I love Chris!) but she couldn't have shouldered ALL the success with just her songs. And they needed a strong guitarist/frontman/woman to make the whole thing gel anyway. Enter Stevie and Lindsey...

Yep - I LOVE CM and think she is in many ways without par, but by her own admission, she readily identifies with the John and Mick and prefers to be behind her piano and not to be in the front and you need a front person to make it in almost all instances. I mean she readily gave that center spot to La Nicks. I often wonder why LB did not take it - he certainly could have. Personally, I think once La Nicks found herself - which took awhile, there was no stopping her. In the end, I will always say that while all five have lots of talent, that talent individually is in no way as great as the sum of it.

I also will say again, that Green was the best guitarist FM ever had and probably one of the best in the world ever. Success, however, was not really part of who he was, esp. after the Germany drug incident.

[cliffdweller]

Personally, I think once La Nicks found herself - which took awhile, there was no stopping her.

:nod: I completely agree.


In the end, I will always say that while all five have lots of talent, that talent individually is in no way as great as the sum of it.


:nod: also agree..

[David]

well, I really liked Stevie on the 1994 solo tour. I was so sick of her toneless, dispirited concert singing from 1987 to 1993 that when I heard her & saw her in 1994, it was like a renaissance for both her & me.

But then by 1995/96/97, she was all tired out again. She must be constantly battling her CFS or something to this day. It saps the fluidity & pliancy from her vocal arc, to this day.

[strandinthewind]

well, I really liked Stevie on the 1994 solo tour. I was so sick of her toneless, dispirited concert singing from 1987 to 1993 that when I heard her & saw her in 1994, it was like a renaissance for both her & me.

But then by 1995/96/97, she was all tired out again. She must be constantly battling her CFS or something to this day. It saps the fluidity & pliancy from her vocal arc, to this day.


I thought she had lots of energy on The Dance :shrug:

[SteveMacD]

That's all fine and dandy... but certainly the strength of Stevie and Lindsey's songwriting and singing ability played into the equation on why the white album and the Rumours album and the Tusk album and the Mirage album and the Tango In The Night album were such successes, right? were all those albums just a series of the different circumstances you listed above?
Absolutely! BTW, I hate to say it, but it the quality of songwriting really doesn't matter. If that were the case, Joni Mitchell would have had a ton of hit records. While she got a ton of respect, she's not necessarily had the type of success as Stevie, Christine, or Lindsey. Success in the music biz has a lot to do with hard work and a lot of luck. Quality, sadly, is not the most important factor in industry success.

Now, Fleetwood Mac needed to get their big break, which they got with the white album, or more specifically, Christine's "Over My Head." That got more people to come out to the shows, which were fantastic. I'll be the first to say that Stevie and Lindsey gave the band a much needed dose of energy that breathed new life into Fleetwood Mac's concerts. All of the sudden, they couldn't be ignored by Warners. But, the single biggest factor in the HUGE success of Fleetwood Mac was the scandals. All of the sudden, their personal lives became the topic of public discussion. So the interest in the band really had less to do with the music than the personal traumas that were going on. Hence the "Rumours" album. By their own admission, that album helped them make all of the subsequent albums. Notice that no Fleetwood Mac album comes close to "Rumours" in terms of success. And God knows they keep reminding us of how they went through hell in 1977 every time they come around.
Of course more played into it that what is obvious... but the way you are making it seem, is that the band's success with Stevie and lindsey is BECAUSE of these factors... and the fact of the matter is, they play a very small role in the overall picture...
I wish I could agree. I think the writings of Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine were great and should be taken on their own merit. But, again, success in the music business, and especially the mind-numbing success of "Rumours," has as much to do with a multitude of other factors as it does with the actual music. And, I'm sure the folks in Fleetwood Mac would completely agree with me on this one. Hell, I know Lindsey does, as he's said as much in interviews. There are many writers who are even better than Stevie, Lindsey, or Christine, but I can't think of many who've had their success. Food for thought.
"They should have stayed away after the Tusk tour?? that's just crazy talk...

Without Stevie and Lindsey, there is no Fleetwood Mac... remember the Time album?? neither does anyone else.."

I stand by my original post...
Which is still crazy. Again, nobody is disputing that they're a major part of the most popular incarnation of Fleetwood Mac (though Christine still had the most hit singles :p ). But there IS Fleetwood Mac without them. It might not be as popular or successful, but it's still just as valid. As I've said, there are a number of reasons why "Time" failed, most of them having little to do with music. And, it has been shown that there are pre-Stevie/Lindsey Mac albums that have sold 500,000 copies to a million units. Under the right circumstances and with the right people, Fleetwood Mac COULD exist without Stevie and Lindsey, although it would take a lot of convincing that I doubt either Mick or John would be interested in at this point. At the end of the day, there are more intricacies in the music business than simply who's in a band that determines success. To say it's because of who's in a band is just plain overly simple.

[diamondsnake]

Even though I am a bigger Stevie Nicks fan then I am an all-around Fleetwood Mac fan, you have to give Fleetwood Mac credit for introducing Stevie to a whole new group of fans. I never would have known who Stevie was unless I saw the Dance on MTV. I would be saying "Stevie Nicks? Who's he?" if I didn't see her with Fleetwood Mac. However, if Stevie didn't look so hot, sound so hot, if she wasn't this cool witchy woman then I never would have become a fan of hers. It was the fact that she changed her look, got healthy, and had an amazing voice that atracted me to her.

I hate to say it but if I saw her at the Clinton thing dressed up like a clown for the first time I would not be a fan of hers today. If she looked like this and acted like this for the Dance I would not be a fan of Fleetwood Mac's or Stevie's just because Stevie was acting bizzare and did look like a joke. Of course, it wasn't really her fault that she was completely out of it- she was a Klonopin junkie.

My favorite era of Stevie Nicks is 1997- the present. She looks great, sounds great and is sober. And I think TISL/SYW is her best work. FM has nothing to do with the way she sounds or looks, but they certainly helped introduce me to Stevie.

On a different note, when I first saw the Dance Christine McVie was what attracted me to the band. I loved her voice and thought she was just such a class act. She was my favorite member of the band for years and then I started listening to Stevie's solo work, etc. and became a much bigger fan of Stevie's.

[SteveMacD]

That may be, but Mick was interested in busting open the American market for a reason...big in Europe does not = $$$ and this is what Mick was interested in. He knew he hit the jackpot with Stevie and Lindsey, he knew they would help to form the new California pop/Eaglesesque sound the Brits were looking for which is why they moved to California in the first place.
Not exactly. They moved to America to be closer to the record company when they were fighting their ex-manager, Cliff Davis, over who owned the rights to the name Fleetwood Mac, since Davis had put out a fake Fleetwood Mac. Bob Welch had been in LA, working with entertainment lawyers, and it became apparent that Warners didn't know who Fleetwood Mac was. It was obvious that the band needed to be in LA. During this time, Bob Welch told the band that if they had any hope of continuing, they had to move to L.A. It was a move the band had to make for its own survival. Given a choice, Mick, John, and Christine would rather have stayed in England. Finding somebody like Stevie and Lindsey and competing with the likes of the Eagles was probably that last thing on their minds when they made the move. And, as much as Mick likes money, I'm not really sure he had any real notion of what was possible in the US until after he officially became the band's manager. By all accounts, Mick's biggest concern during this time was saving his marriage. Even when he eventually found Stevie and Lindsey, I don't think he was thinking it was going to be huge. That came after working with them for a little while. But, yes, he did know they were on to something, which is why he fought so hard with Warners to get them to get behind Fleetwood Mac.
No, Lindsey and Stevie were integral to the mega stardom success that Fleetwood Mac now claims. Sure, Chris was a hitmaker (and I love Chris!) but she couldn't have shouldered ALL the success with just her songs. And they needed a strong guitarist/frontman/woman to make the whole thing gel anyway. Enter Stevie and Lindsey...
Obviously, and nobody is disputing that fact. I think Lindsey was probably the strongest front man that band had. Peter Green was probably the best, but, even before the disaster in Germany, he was a very fragile man. Stevie was a great stage presence. The band tried it once before with Dave Walker, but he just didn't fit in with the others. But as a unit, the "Rumours" band clicked. Incidentally, I have to say that while Stevie and Lindsey were integral, don't discount the others. I was doing a side by side comparison of the Buckingham Nicks version of "Rhiannon" against Fleetwood Mac's version, and, honestly, without John's bassline, the song sounds like every other club band. It was a five person team. Take any one away, and it's not the same. Wasn't the same on BTM, wasn't the same on SYW.

[Johnny Stew]

As I've said, there are a number of reasons why "Time" failed, most of them having little to do with music.I still remember Entertainment Weekly's pithy, one-line review of 'Time' though....
"Who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks."

[ontheEdgeof17]

I still remember Entertainment Weekly's pithy, one-line review of 'Time' though....
"Who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks."


See. That pisses me off a lil. Hello? Behind the Mask, anyone? Stevie was on it and no one really gave a Tusk about that one, either.....although it selled better, but still. Urks my tater.

[Johnny Stew]

She certainly was a joke in the eyes of the Dutch press in those days, and I bet it was the same for press of other countries as well :shrug:She definitely became the punchline of many jokes in the US media, too. I remember it perfectly, because it used to piss me off.
These days, I take an "at least they talk about Stevie" attitude about it.

Back then I didn't even tell people I was a fan because I was embarrassed!I never let that stop me. Anyone who knew me in high school, knew I was a Stevie Nicks fan.
In fact, that's the only way some people knew me: "oh, yeah, you're the guy who likes Stevie Nicks."
And, of course, I'd hear all the jokes... but it didn't bother me, because I felt like I knew something no one else did: Stevie Rules. ;)

[LiquidBlue5000]

I still remember Entertainment Weekly's pithy, one-line review of 'Time' though....
"Who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks."

Johnny, Johnny.. why oh why did u have to start up with him again?? I was hoping this thread would just die... :sigh: :distress:

[Johnny Stew]

Johnny, Johnny.. why oh why did u have to start up with him again?? I was hoping this thread would just die... :sigh: :distress:Wasn't meaning to start anything up again... was just commenting on how one US publication regarded 'Time' (an album that I personally love, by the way).

By the way, threads may die... but, trust me, some debates never do. :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

I still remember Entertainment Weekly's pithy, one-line review of 'Time' though....
"Who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks."
:laugh: The one review I read said that the album sounded more like Delaney & Bonnie than Fleetwood Mac, which tells me that the reviewer either didn't listen to "Time" or had never heard a Delaney & Bonnie album, because "Time" sounded little like any Delaney & Bonnie album I've ever heard. And, I became a fan of D&B when I started getting interested in Eric Clapton, which was long before I knew about Bekka. In any event, what's totally ironic is that one review that I read about the Buckingham Nicks album said that it had a Delaney & Bonnie vibe about it. (Personally, I don't see it. :shrug: )

[SteveMacD]

Johnny, Johnny.. why oh why did u have to start up with him again?? I was hoping this thread would just die... :sigh: :distress:
Why? Too many facts getting in the way of your opinions? :p

[wondergirl9847]

I still remember Entertainment Weekly's pithy, one-line review of 'Time' though....
"Who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks."

I love that, I'm using it...Who gives a Tusk? :lol:

[LiquidBlue5000]

Why? Too many facts getting in the way of your opinions? :p

No, you just don't know when to quit... When you start using insults to support your claims, you lose credibility... think about it...

[SteveMacD]

No, you just don't know when to quit... When you start using insults to support your claims, you lose credibility... think about it...
Sorry, but I don't have tolerance anymore for people who misquote what people say in order to win an argument. If somebody misquotes me, I'm going to call them a half-literate. It seems only fair. The way you misquote really puts your own credibility into question. If you can't make your point without taking others' words out of context, then you yourself know your arguments hold little weight.

[LiquidBlue5000]

Sorry, but I don't have tolerance anymore for people who misquote what people say in order to win an argument. If somebody misquotes me, I'm going to call them a half-literate. It seems only fair. The way you misquote really puts your own credibility into question. If you can't make your point without taking others' words out of context, then you yourself know your arguments hold little weight.


"I could argue, but I don't think your understanding of the music business is such that we could have an intelligent conversation."

"If you honestly believe SA, TISL, OOTC and SYW were hit albums, there's really no point in continuing our discussion, as you are clearly living in some type of fantasy land."

"Are you functionally illiterate or something?"


Above are three statements that you directed as personal attacks against me... like i said, when you start using insults to help support your arguement, you lose all credibility... now have a nice day!

[SteveMacD]

"I could argue, but I don't think your understanding of the music business is such that we could have an intelligent conversation."

"If you honestly believe SA, TISL, OOTC and SYW were hit albums, there's really no point in continuing our discussion, as you are clearly living in some type of fantasy land."

"Are you functionally illiterate or something?"


Above are three statements that you directed as personal attacks against me... like i said, when you start using insults to help support your arguement, you lose all credibility... now have a nice day!
You know, you should get off your high horse, as you're not one to talk.

"and you know this how?? Dear, i'm speaking from a factual standpoint and you are speaking from a projective standpoint... i have facts on my side and you have fiction..."

My aren't we the patronizing one...

Anyway, my comments weren't attacks at all, in the context of the conversation. You took something I said completely out of context with "Then why is it that FM played over 130 dates in the past 2 years?? If no one cared about them anymore, then why so many shows??" I assume you read my post, which was obviously about NEW music. If we're going to use record sales as the gold standard, which YOU are doing, then I think it's safe to say the public generally didn't care about SYW. You knew this, but still took what I said deliberately out of context so that you could make a point.

I said: But hey, OOTC, SA, and TISL really burned up the charts, didn't they?
YOU said: Nonsense... Street Angel and TISL BOTH went gold.. I believe "SYW" went platinum..
Which lead to: If you honestly believe SA, TISL, OOTC and SYW were hit albums, there's really no point in continuing our discussion, as you are clearly living in some type of fantasy land.

Now, my initial post was talking about how none of the latter day albums have been hit albums. Thanks to Fleetwood Mac, the gold album is nothing for a rock band of their status to be proud of anymore. Maybe you consider the numbers respectable, but from that Soundscan post, Fleetwood Mac and Stevie combined have sold less than 8.5 million albums since 1991, and 4.3 million of that was "The Dance" alone. And, I'm sure it would be WELL under ten million if you threw in OOTC, John McVie's Gotta Band, "In The Meantime," and the Zoo's "Shakin' The Cage." To me, that's not good. So I'll again stand by my comment.


As for my "I could argue, but I don't think your understanding of the music business is such that we could have an intelligent conversation" comment, I think you've demonstrated this. You write off many things as being "excuses" as to why something was not successful and appear to give full credit for the band's success to Stevie and Lindsey, while writing off all of the other factors as being "very small factors." If this were valid, you'd have to answer a few questions.

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

3. Who had been on television by 1975?

4. Who had the record contract in 1975?

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio in 1974?

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it?

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975?

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warner's?

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE song that was the band's first break, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Yes, Stevie and Lindsey were a major part of Fleetwood Mac's success. But they walked into an ideal situation. They joined a band with a following and a pretty rich history. The band had been developing momentum for a few years. Finally, they had two people who were as committed and driven as they, and they were able to run with it. Add to the fact that Mick advocated above and beyond what any outside manager would have, and it's really no surprise that they were a success.