Chris won't come back.... [Archive]

ThePenguin

03-16-2005, 09:38 PM

I think this was from that Billboard press release from the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. I'm certainly not surprised. That's what she was saying in many of those interviews last year. John McVie in his Q & A said the same thing. However, it's been over 7 years since she left Fleetwood Mac & people are still asking Mick if she's coming back. I LOVE that.

This also assumes that Fleetwood Mac will record again. There's no guarantee of that at all, in my opinion.

I wasn't surprised by what Mick said either....but part of me wishes they'd just make some new music as the five of them. Screw touring if Chris is so turned off to it....just concentrate on the music, have fun w/ each other.

In all the audio comments Chris makes on her site, she often speaks of herself as still being part of FM and has to keep correcting herself.... like in a way she hasn't 'disassociated' from them, and she probably never will...so if the pull of chemistry is so strong, why not just give in to it, and do a few songs together....sigh. :(

Although I suppose the financial ramifications of not touring, and how that affects Mick and John (as non-writers) etc is a whole other issue, I realize that...but on the other hand, they're all so freakin rich already LOL....can't $ be a non issue at this point?!

-Lis

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 12:00 AM

I wasn't surprised by what Mick said either....but part of me wishes they'd just make some new music as the five of them. Screw touring if Chris is so turned off to it....just concentrate on the music, have fun w/ each other.

In all the audio comments Chris makes on her site, she often speaks of herself as still being part of FM and has to keep correcting herself.... like in a way she hasn't 'disassociated' from them, and she probably never will...so if the pull of chemistry is so strong, why not just give in to it, and do a few songs together....sigh. :(

Although I suppose the financial ramifications of not touring, and how that affects Mick and John (as non-writers) etc is a whole other issue, I realize that...but on the other hand, they're all so freakin rich already LOL....can't $ be a non issue at this point?!

-LisI agree. :nod: I'm willing to say screw touring if that would mean Christine would come back. I'd be okay with just the music and not live shows. :nod:

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 02:44 AM

I agree. :nod: I'm willing to say screw touring if that would mean Christine would come back. I'd be okay with just the music and not live shows. :nod:
Ditto!!! :woohoo:

Gailh

03-17-2005, 04:15 AM

However, it's been over 7 years since she left Fleetwood Mac & people are still asking Mick if she's coming back. I LOVE that.

This also assumes that Fleetwood Mac will record again. There's no guarantee of that at all, in my opinion.

It just shows what a huge part of the band she was. I think her contribution to FM has been underestimated but there's no doubt (in my opinion) that they missed her on SYW.

I still think (and I know I've said this before) that IF they ever do record again honour could be satisfied by Lindsey spending a couple of weeks in the beautiful Kent countryside, get Chris to add a few vocals and some keyboards to some songs and maybe record one of hers that he could take back and they could work on.

Then it wouldn't matter if she toured (because she wont).

It's at this point I normally wake up! :laugh:

Gail

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 06:57 AM

I agree. :nod: I'm willing to say screw touring if that would mean Christine would come back. I'd be okay with just the music and not live shows. :nod:
Ditto!!! :woohoo:

macfan 57

03-17-2005, 07:15 AM

Although I suppose the financial ramifications of not touring, and how that affects Mick and John (as non-writers) etc is a whole other issue, I realize that...but on the other hand, they're all so freakin rich already LOL....can't $ be a non issue at this point?!

-Lis

That's the whole crux of the matter, in my opinion. There's no money to be made just from recording an album. They have to do these oldies tours in order to make money. Fleetwood Mac is a corporate entity. They'd never do something like what Chris did with In The Meantime. She made that album purely for her own enjoyment. :thumbsup:

macfan 57

03-17-2005, 07:20 AM

I still think (and I know I've said this before) that IF they ever do record again honour could be satisfied by Lindsey spending a couple of weeks in the beautiful Kent countryside, get Chris to add a few vocals and some keyboards to some songs and maybe record one of hers that he could take back and they could work on.

Gail

That would be wonderful, but I can't see that happening IF they ever record again. They are still trying to push Buckingham/Nicks. If there are any Christine McVie songs on the album, then it becomes a Fleetwood Mac album, rather than just Buckingham/Nicks with Mick & John in the background(as Chris herself described it).

macfan 57

03-17-2005, 07:22 AM

I agree. :nod: I'm willing to say screw touring if that would mean Christine would come back. I'd be okay with just the music and not live shows. :nod:

:nod: double ditto. :nod: :D

Gailh

03-17-2005, 08:01 AM

That would be wonderful, but I can't see that happening IF they ever record again. They are still trying to push Buckingham/Nicks. If there are any Christine McVie songs on the album, then it becomes a Fleetwood Mac album, rather than just Buckingham/Nicks with Mick & John in the background(as Chris herself described it).

Yes I take your point on that.

I thought that SYW (although I enjoyed it) was too long and sounded like Buckingham Nicks backed by Fleetwood and McVie (which is no bad thing)

IMO the heart (and the hits) went out of the band when she left.

Long sigh!!!

Gail

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 10:33 AM

That's the whole crux of the matter, in my opinion. There's no money to be made just from recording an album. They have to do these oldies tours in order to make money. Fleetwood Mac is a corporate entity. They'd never do something like what Chris did with In The Meantime. She made that album purely for her own enjoyment. :thumbsup:Is FM a corporate entity, or is it just Mick and John? Do you think Stevie or Lindsey would do something like In the Meantime?

macfan 57

03-17-2005, 11:36 AM

Is FM a corporate entity, or is it just Mick and John? Do you think Stevie or Lindsey would do something like In the Meantime?

That's a good question. I'm not sure. When I said that FM is a corporate entity, I meant the entire band, not just Mick & John. Lindsey could have released his Gift Of Screws solo album years ago on an indie label. But, he didn't; he turned it into a "Fleetwood Mac" album, largely because of money, in my opinion. I think making money is a high priority for all of them(although maybe more so for Mick & John since they have no other means to make money). Maybe that will change 5 years or so down the line when they'll be too old to tour.

ThePenguin

03-17-2005, 12:13 PM

That's a good question. I'm not sure. When I said that FM is a corporate entity, I meant the entire band, not just Mick & John. Lindsey could have released his Gift Of Screws solo album years ago on an indie label. But, he didn't; he turned it into a "Fleetwood Mac" album, largely because of money, in my opinion. I think making money is a high priority for all of them(although maybe more so for Mick & John since they have no other means to make money). Maybe that will change 5 years or so down the line when they'll be too old to tour.

I agree that a big part of LB's decision to release his stuff under the name FM was to see it 'recognized' in a way that it would not have been had he put it under just his name... and obviously touring together makes everyone more $ than if they tour separately.

However it would make me a bit sad to think that of after making millions on this last tour-- (didn't S/L make like 35mil each and J/M made 15 mil each? for some reason those #'s are in my head ) that $ is still the main focus? come on, they're all set for life at this point; hopefully they are all mature enough to not piss that kind of $ away....so must the main objective really be to make the most $ possible? sort of sad if that's the case. but I guess maybe that's the business.

-Lis

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 12:22 PM

:nod: double ditto. :nod: :D
I don't know HOW I double dittoed? I only typed it once, but it posted twice. :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :lol:

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 12:29 PM

However it would make me a bit sad to think that of after making millions on this last tour-- (didn't S/L make like 35mil each and J/M made 15 mil each? for some reason those #'s are in my head ) that $ is still the main focus? come on, they're all set for life at this point; hopefully they are all mature enough to not piss that kind of $ away....so must the main objective really be to make the most $ possible? sort of sad if that's the case. but I guess maybe that's the business.
-Lis
I do think it's all about the money now. As for Lindsey, I understand he's got 4 dependants now, and I'm sure it would be nice to leave them all SET for life.
But, for the music, I think it's kinda sad. Touring, playing the same old worn out songs, rehashing a THIRTY year old breakup......gimme a break.
Maybe when Mick and John ARE too old to tour, they could do a studio album with Chris. :woohoo:
God only knows how much better she'll sound in five years! :xoxo:

Johnny Stew

03-17-2005, 03:25 PM

I've often gotten the feeling that Fleetwood Mac... Mick & Stevie most especially... don't feel like they're a "vital" and "active" band unless they're touring.

So, for the most part, I think the touring IS done for a love of the music, but I definitely agree that the money they stand to make each time, is a very compelling incentive indeed.

I said long ago that I'd rather have a brand new Mac or solo album every other year, than all of the extensive touring.
Maybe it's because I'm not a concert-goer, but the touring always feels like wasted time to me. :shrug:

One more studio album... this time written from the ground up... focusing on the Nicks & Buckingham dynamic, would be wonderful, IMO.
And then I'd like to see at least one last album with the 'Rumours' five. :nod:

dissention

03-17-2005, 04:11 PM

But, for the music, I think it's kinda sad. Touring, playing the same old worn out songs, rehashing a THIRTY year old breakup......gimme a break.

Oh, it's a joke and the "band" has become the punchline.

The Dance was done for the money, we all know that. It had nothing to do with making quality music or becoming vital again, it was about lining their coffers. I thought a new album (Say You Will) was a good sign, but then when they went out on tour, it became obvious that it was just about the money all over again. The breakup drama, their hamming it up for the crowds, the verbatim speeches (and movements) every night, etc. Fleetwood Mac is no longer a band when they tour, they're an acting troupe with unnecessary extra players. Get out there and show us that you can be good live instead of parodying yourselves or pack up the plantation and let someone else book your dates at the blasted venues.

dissention

03-17-2005, 04:19 PM

I've often gotten the feeling that Fleetwood Mac... Mick & Stevie most especially... don't feel like they're a "vital" and "active" band unless they're touring.

After forty years in the business, if those two really think they're "vital" simply by touring and rehashing the same old crap, they're delusional and it makes me wonder how such idiots became so successful. :laugh:

One more studio album... this time written from the ground up... focusing on the Nicks & Buckingham dynamic, would be wonderful, IMO.

Dream on, silly dreamer...

And then I'd like to see at least one last album with the 'Rumours' five. :nod:

I'm ready for Chris' return right now. Nicks and Buckingham have nothing to offer us as a duo at this point and it would make for a dull listen, in my opinion. I'd like to hear some new Fleetwood Mac harmonies before I die, not years-old Lindsey Buckingham tunes with a newly cut Stevie background vocal slapped onto it's ass at the last minute or Stevie Nicks tunes with obnoxious "VSO Lindsey" crooning in the background.

I sure as **** didn't think I missed Christine back when Say You Will came out or when I saw them live, but in retrospect, I miss her like I'd miss my penis if it suddenly vanished into thin air. We need Chris back, more than ever, in my view.

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 04:36 PM

After forty years in the business, if those two really think they're "vital" simply by touring and rehashing the same old crap, they're delusional and it makes me wonder how such idiots became so successful. :laugh:

Dream on, silly dreamer...

I'm ready for Chris' return right now. Nicks and Buckingham have nothing to offer us as a duo at this point and it would make for a dull listen, in my opinion. I'd like to hear some new Fleetwood Mac harmonies before I die, not years-old Lindsey Buckingham tunes with a newly cut Stevie background vocal slapped onto it's ass at the last minute or Stevie Nicks tunes with obnoxious "VSO Lindsey" crooning in the background.

I sure as **** didn't think I missed Christine back when Say You Will came out or when I saw them live, but in retrospect, I miss her like I'd miss my penis if it suddenly vanished into thin air. We need Chris back, more than ever, in my view.Good God, diss, don't you think you're being a little harsh, calling Mick and Stevie "idiots"? Aren't we a fan board? I'm all for teasing and mocking and criticizing but to (excuse the pun) diss them so adamantly and cruelly and still be a fan? I genuinely like the people of whom I consider myself a fan. And I know Stevie can be ditzy, and she comes off as self-centered sometimes (hell, I'm the same way), but you call her an idiot for that? Don't you have a fondness for her earlier works? (Of course I'm going to defend Stevie big time here because I love her so much). But this isn't just the fanatic in me speaking.

If you were being facetious (what with the laughing emoticon and all), then disregard what I just said).

I agree that a Say You Will 2 would be a useless endeavor, but are we so certain that those two have nothing left for us? I thought Lindsey's songwriting on that album was fantastic and I love or like most of Stevie's on there.

That being said, I still would much rather have Christine in the mix, and the penis comment was funny. :laugh:

I said long ago that I'd rather have a brand new Mac or solo album every other year, than all of the extensive touring.
Maybe it's because I'm not a concert-goer, but the touring always feels like wasted time to me.Ditto. Though I would like to go one of their live shows one day, I'd prefer a new album. The latter is just more important to me.

dissention

03-17-2005, 04:44 PM

If you were being facetious (what with the laughing emoticon and all), then disregard what I just said).

I was. ;)

However, in reality, I do think Mick is an idiot of the highest order, but not Stevie.

I agree that a Say You Will 2 would be a useless endeavor, but are we so certain that those two have nothing left for us? I thought Lindsey's songwriting on that album was fantastic and I love or like most of Stevie's on there.

That being said, I still would much rather have Christine in the mix, and the penis comment was funny. :laugh:

Nicks and Buckingham working on songs from the ground up? Yes, I am absolutely positive that they have nothing to offer me that I would find very appetizing. They're at the point now where they are not the great collaborators that they once were, they don't have as much in common musically as they did at the height of their success and I predict we'd get an album of compromise rather than something both of them are 100% proud of. As it is, I love Lindsey's material more than ever, but Stevie has once again retreated into half-baked territory as far as I'm concerned (i.e. half of it is fantastic and half of it is crap). But it's all personal taste. :nod:

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 04:51 PM

I was. ;)

However, in reality, I do think Mick is an idiot of the highest order, but not Stevie.Well, there are a lot things I've learned through various boards and in his book that I don't like at all, but I don't think I'm ready to call him an idiot. He's said and done things I don't approve of, basically. But you probably know a lot more about all that than I do.

Nicks and Buckingham working on songs from the ground up? Yes, I am absolutely positive that they have nothing to offer me that I would find very appetizing. They're at the point now where they are not the great collaborators that they once were, they don't have as much in common musically as they did at the height of their success and I predict we'd get an album of compromise rather than something both of them are 100% proud of. As it is, I love Lindsey's material more than ever, but Stevie has once again retreated into half-baked territory as far as I'm concerned (i.e. half of it is fantastic and half of it is crap). But it's all personal taste. :nod:Well, I enjoy all of Stevie's songs on Say You Will except "Silver Girl." I don't think any of them are as good as her earlier songs, but I still like them. More songs as good as "Destiny Rules" and "Running Through the Garden" would be great, but I'm not entirely sure that she can do something like them again. (Not like them, but I mean of the same quality). As for Lindsey and Stevie doing different things musically, I want to think that they can just let each other do what they want to do, not make decisions about each other's songs and such. But then maybe it would be a Stevie solo album/Lindsey solo album put together, I don't know. :shrug: Maybe I'm being totally unrealistic.

ThePenguin

03-17-2005, 05:02 PM

I sure as **** didn't think I missed Christine back when Say You Will came out or when I saw them live, but in retrospect, I miss her like I'd miss my penis if it suddenly vanished into thin air. We need Chris back, more than ever, in my view.

I'm sure your analogy would bring a tear to her eye if she read that.

:laugh:

it gave me a chuckle though. and yes i miss her too.

-Lis

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 05:10 PM

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 05:13 PM

Well, there are a lot things I've learned through various boards and in his book that I don't like at all, but I don't think I'm ready to call him an idiot. He's said and done things I don't approve of, basically. But you probably know a lot more about all that than I do.
Oh, come on. Look at the poor decisions he's made. He's lost MILLIONS of dollars, more than once. He'll go for any get rich quick scheme.
I wouldn't leave the man alone in my house. He'd steal the silverware! :rolleyes:

dissention

03-17-2005, 05:18 PM

Oh, come on. Look at the poor decisions he's made. He's lost MILLIONS of dollars, more than once. He'll go for any get rich quick scheme.
I wouldn't leave the man alone in my house. He'd steal the silverware! :rolleyes:

Oh please. He'd steal the plasticware if it's not bolted down. :p

dissention

03-17-2005, 05:21 PM

I'm sure your analogy would bring a tear to her eye if she read that.

:laugh:

it gave me a chuckle though. and yes i miss her too.

-Lis

:thumbsup:

I miss the soft buffer between the extreme tracks that Lindsey and Stevie put in. Say You Will is just too much at times, like Murrow followed by Illume. Her voice is golden and the harmonies were just delicious, I yearn for the days of old.

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 05:29 PM

Oh, come on. Look at the poor decisions he's made. He's lost MILLIONS of dollars, more than once. He'll go for any get rich quick scheme.
I wouldn't leave the man alone in my house. He'd steal the silverware! :rolleyes:Well, like I was saying, I don't know as much about him as most of y'all do.

On that note, does anyone want to come in and defend him aganist these claims?

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 05:30 PM

:thumbsup:

I miss the soft buffer between the extreme tracks that Lindsey and Stevie put in. Say You Will is just too much at times, like Murrow followed by Illume. Her voice is golden and the harmonies were just delicious, I yearn for the days of old.Wow, you said it there. :nod:

dissention

03-17-2005, 05:35 PM

Well, like I was saying, I don't know as much about him as most of y'all do.

On that note, does anyone want to come in and defend him aganist these claims?

They aren't claims, they're facts. :lol:

He was fired as the Mac's manager for not keeping tabs on the money, he went bankrupt, he invested in lord knows how many bad real estate deals, he shacked up with Jonathan Todd, he released that vile book, he was the sole reason for Stevie quitting the Mac in the early nineties by being a jackass over Silver Springs, he has more get rich quick schemes than Miami has senior citizens (golf videos, wine, etc.); the list goes on and on. He's a talented musician, but brains are something he does not have, IMO.

dissention

03-17-2005, 05:38 PM

Wow, you said it there. :nod:

:thumbsup:

It's true, you don't realize how special something is until it's gone. In this case, it was Christine. :nod: I can just imagine how wonderful SYW would have been with her participation, it would have felt like a Fleetwood Mac record.

macfan 57

03-17-2005, 07:11 PM

:thumbsup:

It's true, you don't realize how special something is until it's gone. In this case, it was Christine. :nod: I can just imagine how wonderful SYW would have been with her participation, it would have felt like a Fleetwood Mac record.

Wow, that almost sounds like something I would have said. :)

By the way, I just had to comment on your earlier post. That was one of the funniest things I've ever read on this board. :lol: :lol: I agree with Lis. I'm sure Chris would have appreciated the sentiment. :laugh:

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 07:13 PM

Well, like I was saying, I don't know as much about him as most of y'all do.

On that note, does anyone want to come in and defend him aganist these claims?
I doubt you'll get any takers......we all know what a scheister (sp) he is. :lol: :lol:

GateandGarden

03-17-2005, 07:44 PM

I doubt you'll get any takers......we all know what a scheister (sp) he is. :lol: :lol:Well, considering all the members of his official message board...you'd think one of them was also a Ledgie.

But, about the "Silver Springs" thing--some people I've talked to (Stevie fans) actually think he was right about that. I didn't agree but they thought it was the right decision because the song was the Mac's. :shrug: I personally think she should've had it.

GypsySorcerer

03-17-2005, 08:05 PM

HomerMcvie

03-17-2005, 08:59 PM

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

I think Chris on SYW would have made it a superb record.
She is the balance...Always has been. :nod:

Johnny Stew

03-18-2005, 12:17 AM

After forty years in the business, if those two really think they're "vital" simply by touring and rehashing the same old crap, they're delusional and it makes me wonder how such idiots became so successful. :laugh:I do think it makes them feel more vital than sitting in a recording studio for 18-24 months does. :shrug:

I'm ready for Chris' return right now. Nicks and Buckingham have nothing to offer us as a duo at this point and it would make for a dull listen, in my opinion. I'd like to hear some new Fleetwood Mac harmonies before I die, not years-old Lindsey Buckingham tunes with a newly cut Stevie background vocal slapped onto it's ass at the last minute or Stevie Nicks tunes with obnoxious "VSO Lindsey" crooning in the background.Well, I did say "from the ground up." ;)

But, either way, I still disagree with the idea that Stevie & Lindsey have nothing left to offer as a duo. You might be bored by all of the "are they/aren't they" stuff, and I'm not into any of that either, but I do think those two make magic together... even when it's not exactly "organic." ;)
The love/hate relationship between them creates an exquisite tension in the music they create together.

I sure as **** didn't think I missed Christine back when Say You Will came out or when I saw them live, but in retrospect, I miss her like I'd miss my penis if it suddenly vanished into thin air.Hmm... that's one way to keep you from procreating! :laugh: ;)

I miss Christine and yet I don't miss Christine.
I feel there are collaborative areas that Stevie & Lindsey still haven't tapped, and I'd like to see those explored before Christine re-enters the picture and that aspect becomes distilled by a third once again. :shrug:

Johnny Stew

03-18-2005, 12:23 AM

I miss the soft buffer between the extreme tracks that Lindsey and Stevie put in. Say You Will is just too much at times, like Murrow followed by Illume.It's funny, but based on your posts (and what I've therefore gleaned of your personality), I think you'd be all about extremes.

And maybe it's ironic that I tend to love them!

Just goes to show you, that you never really know anyone! ;) :xoxo:

Like I said, I do miss Christine, but I'm not quite ready for her to return to the band either.
Now, having said that, I sure as hell wouldn't bemoan the fact if she did come back. I love her, and I'd be as ecstatic as anyone... I just think that Stevie & Lindsey still have more to say as a duo, before they become a trio again.

HomerMcvie

03-18-2005, 02:59 AM

I do miss Christine, but I'm not quite ready for her to return to the band either.
Now, having said that, I sure as hell wouldn't bemoan the fact if she did come back. I love her, and I'd be as ecstatic as anyone... I just think that Stevie & Lindsey still have more to say as a duo, before they become a trio again.
:mad: :distress: :distress: :distress: :p
Brian, you're wrong. They're SOOOO lame now(and I'm sure Chris' absence is only part of it). SYW was a decent effort, be it DOESN'T sound like a FM record. There's no heart. Only rock, and ditz.....

amber

03-18-2005, 03:10 AM

:mad: :distress: :distress: :distress: :p
Brian, you're wrong. They're SOOOO lame now(and I'm sure Chris' absence is only part of it). SYW was a decent effort, be it DOESN'T sound like a FM record. There's no heart. Only rock, and ditz.....
:shocked: :shrug:
Um...Bun? "so lame"? "no heart"? Stevie and Lindsey? are you joking? Christine is the poppy safe one... don't get me wrong, I miss her, too, but mainly her harmony and keyboard work (excellent, unequaled) and her occasional songs I like (temporary one) but otherwise? Do you just miss the "feel good" lyrics and "perfect" voice???? :confused: And did you just call Steve and Linds "rock and ditz"??? Christine's always had the most simple lyrics... :confused: (not that that is bad, but...) And she does supply lots of "heart", but it is of the ...nice variety, which is fine, but Linds and Steve supply the other heart, the one that acknowledges the various aspects of pain, longing, jealousy, revenge, PAIN, etc. :confused:
Confuse Me? (although, serious woot to Christine, cause she is my sign, but still!)
Honestly, in my head, I can't believe someone doesn't have mass respect for all the members, cause I do, for varied reasons. "Separate but Equal" is my motto in the Mac...

BombaySapphire3

03-18-2005, 05:40 AM

I missed Chris on SYW .Her solo albums however are for the most part bland with maybe a few bright spots ,usually the singles.I think she needs Fleetwood Mac as badly as they need her .I understand and applaud her refusal to tour however, particularly in light of the interminable length of the SYW tour. So if the ultimatum was that she had to participate in a seemingly endless money oriented tour to record with FM it is their loss .The memory of the tour which had some high points but was not their best ever will recede in time but the great Fleetwood Mac album that could have been might not have.

Gailh

03-18-2005, 08:13 AM

I saw FM twice in the UK for the SYW tour.

BUT the very first line of the very first song - "listen to the wind blow" - I thought that doesn't sound right. I sulked for most of the concert and for some reason was very angry that Stevie didn't dedicate Landslide to her.

Anyway a rumour(!) went around that she would join them on stage for the last date at Earls Court. So I coughed up my £75 again. As the day grew nearer I thought this is not going to happen and come the night - it didn't!

However Stevie did dedicate Landslide to her and Mick gave her a very nice mention.

But to me they just didn't sound right. As many have said before - the balance has gone.

I don't think she'll work with them again but who knows? I think they have all moved on. I wouldn't want her to work with them out of duty or some miss placed sense of loyalty. She would have to really want to and I don't think she wants to be in that type of intense pressurised atmosphere again. ITM was done over almost two years working when they felt like it and with no record company pressure.

The irony is that Lindsey who worked with FM again rather than release a solo album so he could shift more copies has said some less than flattering things about Christine, when if she had worked with them they would have shifted a lot more!

Gail

Is it technically possible for her to leave? Isn't that like divorcing your own family?

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 09:40 AM

:mad: :distress: :distress: :distress: :p
Brian, you're wrong. They're SOOOO lame now(and I'm sure Chris' absence is only part of it). SYW was a decent effort, be it DOESN'T sound like a FM record. There's no heart. Only rock, and ditz.....I miss Christine and I think the album would have been better and more like the FM we know and love if she had been on it, but I do not agree with your assessment at all. Only rock and ditz? First off, some of the songs aren't even rock. ("Say You Will?" Seems like a pop song to me). I don't know where the ditz part comes in, unless you're referring to some of the trite lyrics in songs like "Say You Will" and "Everybody Finds Out." Christine has written cheesy lyrics as well. Cheesy can be very good when coupled with sincerity, though, and Christine has that in my eyes. I think Stevie has it, too. The most shocking thing to me is that you could say it has "no heart". If I had wanted to say that, I wouldn't be able to just after hearing "Say Goodbye," "Steal Your Heart Away" and "Bleed to Love Her." I feel like there's no missing the heart in those songs. I feel the same way about "Running Through the Garden" and "Destiny Rules." I'll readily admit that it took a long time for me to truly appreciate the album (and I still don't reallly appreciate "Murrow" or "Silver Girl") because 1) I don't think it's Stevie's best songwriting and, 2) the way their voices have matured and well, aged, is kind of overwhelming at the first listen. But I gave it time, and though it's not my favorite Mac record, I find things to love about it now.

It's kind of like how I felt about the Mac when I first started listening. I really didn't care for anything Christine other than "Everywhere" or anything Lindsey other than "Go Your Own Way." I was all about Stevie but I gave it time and I'm a fan of the whole deal now. I'm glad I ditched my tunnel vision. In that post, you sound as though the only one you have any appreciation for is Christine. :shrug:

Anyway, I realize you're entitled to your opinion and I can't blame you for only liking one of them if that's how you feel. I just feel like I was personally more satisfied with the whole Mac experience when I learned to love them all. And you're certainly entitled to criticize the record, I just can't understand your criticisms at all.

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:07 AM

It's funny, but based on your posts (and what I've therefore gleaned of your personality), I think you'd be all about extremes.

I am, hence my adoration for Lindsey, Bowie, and Debbie. I love extremes, but Stevie's extreme schtick is too much in regards to Say You Will. Illume.Is.Just.Too.Much.

I'm all about Smile At You and Running Through the Garden and Goodbye Baby, which I consider to be pretty extreme Stevie tracks (along the lines of stuff she should do more often), but when she starts getting into her flowery schtick like Silver Girl and Say You Will and Thrown Down (and her childish Everybody Finds Out, albeit with a phenomenal vocal), I feel a wretch coming on.

:wavey:

PenguinHead

03-18-2005, 11:50 AM

I wasn't surprised by what Mick said either....but part of me wishes they'd just make some new music as the five of them. Screw touring if Chris is so turned off to it....just concentrate on the music, have fun w/ each other.

That would be the most feasible senario for Chris -- with regard to any future activity with Fleetwood Mac. At the very least she would "guest" on an album. At the most, she would contribute several songs and leave it at that (aka the "Time" album).

I find all the whining and wishing for her to get back with the band rather curious and annoying. The lady is 60-something years old...she's been there and done that. She has nothing to prove. I give her credit for honoring her evolution; think about it...do you expect to be doing the same thing for 40 years? Don't you think your focus and priorities might change over time? She has moved on folks!!

To me, it seems disrespectful (of her) and self-serving (not to mention a complete waste of time) to pine on and on over thoughts such as "will she come back?," "I wish she'll come back," "she might come back."

Get over it!! Or join the long-toothed fans who are still lamenting over the departure of Peter Green. "It's not the same...waah, waah, waah." If there is one constant factor...it is CHANGE. That is a key aspect of this band that makes them so intriguing!

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:56 AM

macfan 57

03-18-2005, 12:20 PM

To me, it seems disrespectful (of her) and self-serving (not to mention a complete waste of time) to pine on and on over thoughts such as "will she come back?," "I wish she'll come back," "she might come back."

I don't think it's desrespectful or self-serving to be pining away for Chris to return to the band(especially in the Christine forum). I love it. It shows how hugely important she was to Fleetwood Mac over the years. When 1/3 of the rhythm section and 1/3 of the frontline of the band is gone, there's going to be a big, gaping hole. Obviously alot of other people have noticed this too. I also respect those Peter Green fans who pine away for that era too. Something tells me you wouldn't feel the same way if it had been Stevie Nicks who left Fleetwood Mac instead of Christine.

HomerMcvie

03-18-2005, 12:28 PM

Only rock and ditz? Come, Silver Girl
The most shocking thing to me is that you could say it has "no heart".
Well, I've always said that Chris was the HEART of FM. That's what I meant.
And, btw, this is the Chris forum. I don't go ditzin' around in Stevie's garden.
It's kind of like how I felt about the Mac when I first started listening. I really didn't care for anything Christine other than "Everywhere" or anything Lindsey other than "Go Your Own Way." I was all about Stevie but I gave it time and I'm a fan of the whole deal now. I'm glad I ditched my tunnel vision. In that post, you sound as though the only one you have any appreciation for is Christine. :shrug:
You mean I'm not? :wavey: Believe it or not, I started out as a Stevie fan!

I just can't understand your criticisms at all.
Well, maybe ditz was a little harsh, but what about Silver Girl? :lol:

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 01:15 PM

Come, Silver Girl

Well, I've always said that Chris was the HEART of FM. That's what I meant.
And, btw, this is the Chris forum. I don't go ditzin' around in Stevie's garden.

You mean I'm not? :wavey: Believe it or not, I started out as a Stevie fan!

Well, maybe ditz was a little harsh, but what about Silver Girl? :lol:I agree with you about Silver Girl and Come. But yours seemed like a comment about the entire album, not a couple of what some would call the weakest tracks.

I agree with Amber on the heart thing. I don't think there is any member who the heart, but a heart. Or perhaps they represent various valves of one heart. I'm liking this imagery. :nod: :laugh: The heart beats its strongest with all members present, but no one should be more important than the others. (Of course, if this were literal, the absence of the Christine valve would've killed the band if there was no artificial one implanted, but whatever). So the analogy is crappy. :shrug:

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 01:17 PM

I don't think it's desrespectful or self-serving to be pining away for Chris to return to the band(especially in the Christine forum). I love it. It shows how hugely important she was to Fleetwood Mac over the years. When 1/3 of the rhythm section and 1/3 of the frontline of the band is gone, there's going to be a big, gaping hole. Obviously alot of other people have noticed this too. I also respect those Peter Green fans who pine away for that era too. Something tells me you wouldn't feel the same way if it had been Stevie Nicks who left Fleetwood Mac instead of Christine.I think it is self-serving to some degree, considering that Christine has said she doesn't want to come back. But I think we're entitled to bemoan that all we want on this message board. Maybe she appreciates it in a sense and considers it devotion and admiration rather than nagging. One can hope.

Well, that's assuming she even knows about it and how we all feel.

HomerMcvie

03-18-2005, 01:26 PM

I agree with you about Silver Girl and Come. But yours seemed like a comment about the entire album, not a couple of what some would call the weakest tracks.
Well, it was 3AM when I posted. Maybe I wasn't thinking 100% clear . :rolleyes:

I agree with Amber on the heart thing. I don't think there is any member who the heart, but a heart. Or perhaps they represent various valves of one heart. I'm liking this imagery. :nod: :laugh: The heart beats its strongest with all members present, but no one should be more important than the others. (Of course, if this were literal, the absence of the Christine valve would've killed the band if there was no artificial one implanted, but whatever). So the analogy is crappy. :shrug:
Chris's songs ARE poppy. That's WHAT's missing from SYW, IMO.

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 01:28 PM

Well, it was 3AM when I posted. Maybe I wasn't thinking 100% clear . :rolleyes:

Chris's songs ARE poppy. That's WHAT's missing from SYW, IMO.Yeah, those 3AM posts can be a bitch. :laugh: I can attest to that. I go back and read things and I'm like I said that? Why? Anyway, I think "Say You Will," "Steal Your Heart Away," and "Miranda" have a good poppy thing going on.

HomerMcvie

03-18-2005, 01:47 PM

Steal Your Heart Away is my favorite song on SYW. :woohoo:

macfan 57

03-18-2005, 02:52 PM

Maybe she appreciates it in a sense and considers it devotion and admiration rather than nagging. One can hope.[/COLOR]

Well, that's assuming she even knows about it and how we all feel.

Well, she's said that she really isn't into the internet or even her computer for that matter. She hates to type. So, I doubt that she even knows or cares about what's said on internet message boards. If she knew, I doubt that she'd think it was nagging. She might even be a little flattered if she knew that she hasn't been forgotten. :)

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 03:21 PM

Well, she's said that she really isn't into the internet or even her computer for that matter. She hates to type. So, I doubt that she even knows or cares about what's said on internet message boards. If she knew, I doubt that she'd think it was nagging. She might even be a little flattered if she knew that she hasn't been forgotten. :)I like to think she'd be very flattered, too. :)

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 03:23 PM

Steal Your Heart Away is my favorite song on SYW. :woohoo:It's one of my faves, too.

Johnny Stew

03-18-2005, 04:52 PM

I am, hence my adoration for Lindsey, Bowie, and Debbie. I love extremes, but Stevie's extreme schtick is too much in regards to Say You Will. Illume.Is.Just.Too.Much.

I'm all about Smile At You and Running Through the Garden and Goodbye Baby, which I consider to be pretty extreme Stevie tracks (along the lines of stuff she should do more often), but when she starts getting into her flowery schtick like Silver Girl and Say You Will and Thrown Down (and her childish Everybody Finds Out, albeit with a phenomenal vocal), I feel a wretch coming on.You see it as "schtick"... I see it as "The Essence Of Stevie."

What one person reacts and responds to is wildly different from what "does it" for someone else, but it still amazes me when someone who is an admitted Stevie fan, severely dislikes an aspect of her that MAKES her, her.

To say, "I hate when Stevie gets into her flowery schtick" is like saying, "I hate when Lindsey gets into his twitchy, avant-garde schtick," or "I hate when Christine gets into her lovelorn-lady schtick."
It makes sense when it's coming from someone who doesn't like that particular artist, but when it comes from someone who's a fan, it baffles me.

Stevie has always been a hippy, dippy, flower-chicky, new-age California girl... among the many other things she seems to be.
It's not "schtick"... which implies that it's a forced gimmick that she puts on... it's part of who she is.

Admittedly, "Silver Girl" had to grow on me, but I think "Thrown Down" and "Say You Will" are terrific songs. The latter is so endlessly catchy, and an absolute gem in the traditional "Fleetwood Mac style"... two verses, and an upbeat, bouncy chorus (see "You Make Loving Fun," "Think About Me," "Over My Head," "Love In Store," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Little Lies," "Everywhere," "As Long As You Follow," etc., etc., etc.).
I find it irresistible.

(Oh, and I still don't see how "Everybody Finds Out" is "childish"... Stevie PERFECTLY captures the typical, "I saw him first, he's MINE" attitude that MILLIONS of people exhibit. Or perhaps it's just the fact that people INSIST she HAS to be writing it autobiographically, and not as an observer of this love-triangle, trying to put herself into their shoes.
Stevie's own fans strait-jacket her more than anyone else could.)

Anyway, to get back on topic... I love Chris and I miss her influence on "The Fleetwood Mac Sound," but she's moved on and so should we.
It took me a while to realize it, but Fleetwood Mac has always been more than just any one member.

Besides, even when The Five were all working together, they still had some "misses."

dissention

03-18-2005, 05:18 PM

You see it as "schtick"... I see it as "The Essence Of Stevie."

What one person reacts and responds to is wildly different from what "does it" for someone else, but it still amazes me when someone who is an admitted Stevie fan, severely dislikes an aspect of her that MAKES her, her.

To say, "I hate when Stevie gets into her flowery schtick" is like saying, "I hate when Lindsey gets into his twitchy, avant-garde schtick," or "I hate when Christine gets into her lovelorn-lady schtick."
It makes sense when it's coming from someone who doesn't like that particular artist, but when it comes from someone who's a fan, it baffles me.

No one will understand everything in life, dear, no use trying.

Stevie has always been a hippy, dippy, flower-chicky, new-age California girl... among the many other things she seems to be.

And it worked when she could pull it off well, but she can't these days as much as she used to; these days it comes across as schtick to me. She comes up with stuff like Silver Girl about someone famous living in a "harsh" world and it does nothing for me. She comes up Say You Will, a song that sounds incredibly forced, uninspired, and cliched. She comes up with Thrown Down, a song that is admittedly about Lindsey Buckingham...yet again. Or how about Illume? Some great lyrics, but she once again gets mired in the self-centeredness that has been permeating through her music since '89. I know you don't agree with me on any of these things and we've discussed them at great length many times over. You and I approach her music much differently, so we already start off at opposite ends of the field and neither of us will make a goal.

It's not "schtick"... which implies that it's a forced gimmick that she puts on... it's part of who she is.

That's your opinion, I have a different one.

Admittedly, "Silver Girl" had to grow on me, but I think "Thrown Down" and "Say You Will" are terrific songs. The latter is so endlessly catchy, and an absolute gem in the traditional "Fleetwood Mac style"... two verses, and an upbeat, bouncy chorus (see "You Make Loving Fun," "Think About Me," "Over My Head," "Love In Store," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Little Lies," "Everywhere," "As Long As You Follow," etc., etc., etc.).
I find it irresistible.

Glad you like 'em. I love Save Me A Place and consider it a terrific song. It's endlessly fascinating. I find it irresistible. But you don't and that's your right. ;)

(Oh, and I still don't see how "Everybody Finds Out" is "childish"... Stevie PERFECTLY captures the typical, "I saw him first, he's MINE" attitude that MILLIONS of people exhibit. Or perhaps it's just the fact that people INSIST she HAS to be writing it autobiographically, and not as an observer of this love-triangle, trying to put herself into their shoes.
Stevie's own fans strait-jacket her more than anyone else could.)

I don't think it has anything to do with her and some ridiculous, magical affair she had with Lindsey like most people seem to. She could be writing about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky for all I know, I don't give a fiddler's fart. The lyrics and the way they're shouted simply make it seem childish to me. You'd think that someone capable of writing such amazing lyrics could do a bit better than a cliched "You can't love him! You can't have him! I do have him!" It comes across as juvenile to me. Sue me.

Anyway, to get back on topic... I love Chris and I miss her influence on "The Fleetwood Mac Sound," but she's moved on and so should we.
It took me a while to realize it, but Fleetwood Mac has always been more than just any one member.

The way some of you folks make it sound, it's as if we're banging down McVie's door and screaming at her to hook back up with the Mac or face utter annihilation. And we're just saying we miss her harmonies and pop fluff!

When all is said and done, at the end of the day, opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one and everyone thinks everybody else's stinks.

Johnny Stew

03-18-2005, 05:57 PM

No one will understand everything in life, dear, no use trying.I'm a Virgo... it's in our nature to investigate and thoroughly examine that which isn't readily understandable.

I've always loved contradictions within people... they fascinate me. :o

Some great lyrics, but she once again gets mired in the self-centeredness that has been permeating through her music since '89.She's been "self-centered" in her lyrics since Day One, when she wrote, "I've Loved And I've Lost."

Her lyrics, by and large, have ALWAYS been about her and her experiences... how something made her feel, how she coped (or didn't cope), and so on.

Which is why I don't get the notion that her lyrics suddenly became "self-centered" in 1989. :shrug:

I love Save Me A Place and consider it a terrific song. It's endlessly fascinating. I find it irresistible. But you don't and that's your right. ;)I'd love it if only it weren't so plodding and boring. :laugh: ;)

The lyrics and the way they're shouted simply make it seem childish to me. You'd think that someone capable of writing such amazing lyrics could do a bit better than a cliched "You can't love him! You can't have him! I do have him!" It comes across as juvenile to me. Sue me.Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you HAVE to like the song... all I'm saying is that I do believe, in my interpretation of it, that Stevie's writing about a childish relationship. She's writing about people demonstrating practically the biggest level of immaturity adults can possibly demonstrate: treating someone else as property that you have "rights" to.

So, yes, the characters in the song, and the whole "you can't love him, you can't have him" lyrics sound immature... but, to me, that's the point.

The way some of you folks make it sound, it's as if we're banging down McVie's door and screaming at her to hook back up with the Mac or face utter annihilation. And we're just saying we miss her harmonies and pop fluff!I'm not saying no one's allowed to miss Chris... I miss her too. I'm merely responding to the idea that Fleetwood Mac is no good without Christine.
Anyone can believe that if they'd like, but I disagree with it.

When Stevie left, I initially felt that Fleetwood Mac would just plain suck without her... then I got over myself and gave the current lineup a chance, instead of wishing for what it had been in the past. No, it "wasn't the same"... but then things change, and nothing ever stays exactly the way it was. :shrug: :)

When all is said and done, at the end of the day, opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one and everyone thinks everybody else's stinks.I don't think everyone's stinks. ;) :xoxo: :laugh:

dissention

03-18-2005, 06:11 PM

I'm a Virgo... it's in our nature to investigate and thoroughly examine that which isn't readily understandable.

I've always loved contradictions within people... they fascinate me. :o

Whatever floats your boat. ;) I don't take things too seriously, so I don't waste my time on understanding such trivial things.

She's been "self-centered" in her lyrics since Day One, when she wrote, "I've Loved And I've Lost."

Her lyrics, by and large, have ALWAYS been about her and her experiences... how something made her feel, how she coped (or didn't cope), and so on.

Which is why I don't get the notion that her lyrics suddenly became "self-centered" in 1989.

I disagree. While she may have been writing about herself and her experiences, she wrote them in a way that was universal; people could identify with her songs. I certainly did. She eventually lost a lot of that ability and began to write songs that not so many people could indentify with, in my opinion. It actually began with Sisters of the Moon, worked it's way up to I Sing For the Sings and Welcome To the Room...Sara, and then just exploded with the odious offle that is Ghosts and Two Kinds of Love (hence my reference to '89).

Please spare me the arguments that you can relate to them, because you're a die-hard fan; you look for that kind of stuff.

I'd love it if only it weren't so plodding and boring. :laugh: ;)

Ah, so you do understand how I feel about Stevie! :xoxo:

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you HAVE to like the song... all I'm saying is that I do believe, in my interpretation of it, that Stevie's writing about a childish relationship. She's writing about people demonstrating practically the biggest level of immaturity adults can possibly demonstrate: treating someone else as property that you have "rights" to.

So, yes, the characters in the song, and the whole "you can't love him, you can't have him" lyrics sound immature... but, to me, that's the point.

Good, because I don't like the song itself. I like the cheesy production and I adore her vocal, but that's it. I don't agree with your interpretation of it, but we can just put more notches in our respective bedposts over that one instead of delving into it for 87 more pages as if it actually had some deep meaning.

I'm not saying no one's allowed to miss Chris... I miss her too. I'm merely responding to the idea that Fleetwood Mac is no good without Christine.
Anyone can believe that if they'd like, but I disagree with it.

When Stevie left, I initially felt that Fleetwood Mac would just plain suck without her... then I got over myself and gave the current lineup a chance, instead of wishing for what it had been in the past. No, it "wasn't the same"... but then things change, and nothing ever stays exactly the way it was. :shrug: :)

I gave the current lineup a chance. I miss Chris.

I don't think everyone's stinks. ;) :xoxo: :laugh:

Certainly not mine, bub.

Johnny Stew

03-18-2005, 07:03 PM

Whatever floats your boat. ;) I don't take things too seriously, so I don't waste my time on understanding such trivial things.Lest you have the wrong idea, I don't take that kind of stuff seriously either... I simply enjoy it and find it fascinating. :D

Some folks would wonder why we waste any time at all talking to relative strangers, day in and day out, about some senior citizens who record pop music.

She eventually lost a lot of that ability and began to write songs that not so many people could indentify with, in my opinion. It actually began with Sisters of the Moon, worked it's way up to I Sing For the Sings and Welcome To the Room...Sara, and then just exploded with the odious offle that is Ghosts and Two Kinds of Love (hence my reference to '89).

Please spare me the arguments that you can relate to them, because you're a die-hard fan; you look for that kind of stuff.But, as I've said before, the flaw in your argument is the simple fact that I was NOT a die-hard fan the first time I heard "I Sing For The Things"... and 'Mirror' was only the second new Stevie solo album that was released in my early years as a fan, so the songs contained therein could have VERY easily turned me off of her, never to return again (as has happened over the years with many singers I previously "loved").

But I DID relate to songs like "I Sing For The Things" and "When I See You Again" and "Ghosts," even without being a decades-long diehard. And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.

I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.

I don't agree with your interpretation of it, but we can just put more notches in our respective bedposts over that one instead of delving into it for 87 more pages as if it actually had some deep meaning.As with "Joan Of Arc," you don't agree with my interpretations of Stevie's songs, because you've got her in a little box that you never let her out of. ;) :xoxo:

Nothing in life has any more meaning than that which we attribute to it. :D

Serrart

03-18-2005, 07:19 PM

Steal Your Heart Away is my favorite song on SYW. :woohoo:

I love the song too, especially the demo where Chris' voice is more clearly audible. That's probably the track where I miss her more. :nod: For the rest of SYW the music is changed, the concept is changed. I can't really say I miss her because she simply isn't part of that spectrum.

Romy

Serrart

03-18-2005, 07:35 PM

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 08:27 PM

...And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.

I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:

I just can't nod enough! :laugh:

And y'all don't stop now! This debate is absolutely fascinating to me!!!

Nicks Fan

03-18-2005, 10:53 PM

Here is my two cents.

Fm has always been a band with a knack for changing their lineups every so often and evolving. I would like to think that when Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham joined Fleetwood Mac that most of the people that were pining for Peter Green to return liked the new lineup and got over the whole Peter Green leaving thing. As for Christine how many songs can you honestly say are not just a light breezy pope confection. Easy on the ears but not much more. I am not saying that that is a bad thing but for anyone to say that LB and SN have nothing to offer as part of Fm is stpid. While SYW was good I believe it MAY have been even better with her catchy pop songs added to the mix. But honestly can anyone say that SYW is not as good as Tango and even better then BTM or Time?

I am certain that if she rejoined the band everyone here would be begging her to agree to tour so we could see the fab five again. Even if she did agree to tour we all know that the band would only trott out the same old hits that have been done for years.

The point is I wish she would rejoin the band for one last hurrah but we know that will never happen. So I have moved on and I think that anyone here who thinks FM is nothing without her is not being fair to the band.

Matt :mad:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:13 PM

Some folks would wonder why we waste any time at all talking to relative strangers, day in and day out, about some senior citizens who record pop music.

Because we're weird.

But, as I've said before, the flaw in your argument is the simple fact that I was NOT a die-hard fan the first time I heard "I Sing For The Things"... and 'Mirror' was only the second new Stevie solo album that was released in my early years as a fan, so the songs contained therein could have VERY easily turned me off of her, never to return again (as has happened over the years with many singers I previously "loved").

But I DID relate to songs like "I Sing For The Things" and "When I See You Again" and "Ghosts," even without being a decades-long diehard. And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.

I'm glad you take pleasure in them, honestly. As is painfully obvious, I do not. I am of the mind that as soon as an artist begins to write songs about being in a band or being a singer or being famous, they don't have much to offer me. I find it self-indulgent on their part and have no use for it. I don't care if you talked to your famous friend last night or if he wouldn't write your damned songs. It bores me. The underlying feelings are universal, of course, but the ways in which they are being presented turn me off and therefore make me lose interest.

The dude from Franz Ferdinand has a great quote on this very topic, but I'll spare you. :laugh:

I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.

What's your excuse for That Made Me Stronger? :lol:

You've told me before that you listen to Stevie to get to know who she is and her life experiences, I do not.

As with "Joan Of Arc," you don't agree with my interpretations of Stevie's songs, because you've got her in a little box that you never let her out of. ;) :xoxo:

No, I just think they're bogus interpretations. :xoxo:

Nothing in life has any more meaning than that which we attribute to it. :D

Dude, rent I Heart Huckabees. :p

amber

03-18-2005, 11:24 PM

double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgoodunlessIlikeit.blah

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:24 PM

I find Illume extremely violent, with a lot in common with Joan Of Arc. It's a slap on the face, even if the arrangement destructures its strength in an unbearable way. When I listen it on Destiny Rules with only Lindsey' guitar and especially John's bass, it takes my breath away.

Romy

I find Illume extremely grating and ridiculous. Stevie gets kudos from me for putting out something so wildly different from anything else she's ever done before, though. It certainly shocked the **** out of me when I first heard it. If she took risks like that on a regular basis, I'd be pretty stoked, regardless of the quality of the material. Just leave the VSO gimmicks alone, kids.

It also has some of my favorite lyrics from her (though I remember Carne absolutely despised them :laugh: ):

I will not take you for granted
I wouldn't trade you for jade
Or for diamonds
Not for one minute
Not for anything
I need you to be there

She can keep the rest, thankyouverymuch.

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:28 PM

double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgood.blah

WTF? :laugh:

I find many things to be very good. They just have to be of high quality for me to like them. ;)

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:30 PM

double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgoodunlessIlikeit.blah

Much better. :woohoo:

amber

03-18-2005, 11:31 PM

WTF? :laugh:

I find many things to be very good. They just have to be of high quality for me to like them. ;)
dubyadubyadubya.idecidewhatisquality.dissention/notstevie.harsh/debbieD/critical.net[/url]

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:33 PM

What's your excuse for That Made Me Stronger? :lol:

"Dreams reoccur in my solitude
Breaking my heart
Injuring my mood
With all of the things that I thought I knew
It was you"

Great general verse about the pain of unrequited love, IMO. As a homosexual, I never tire of that theme. :laugh:

"Well, I remember
You caught my eye
It was late September
It was no surprise
He made me better
His songs were soft and tender sometimes"

This really had an effect on me the first time I heard it. It reminds me of someone I fell for in late September. Too perfect. Also the fact that the person is sometimes soft and tender and sometimes not. :shrug;

"Well the conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed"

Nice little universal part about love gone wrong.

"The conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed
Don't call me when you're lonely"

I love the addition of the last line. "I remember how heart wrenching it was and I won't forget, so when you decide one night that you're not actually better off alone, please don't call me." :mad: (Sorry, that brought back memories). :laugh:

"Well once more I tell the shadows of my soul
To stay back
Everything has changed now
And I don't want to go back
And nothing you can say can change my mind"

OMG. Oh how I love that. Do I even need to comment on it?

I still think of the whole songwriting thing as an analogy, like you depend upon someone who means the world to you to write your song, or to determine where your life is going and what you do and feel. Then you realize you can write your own song and don't need him or her. That is very liberating. And I really didn't think my interpretation was a stretch. I like it when it's an analogy instead of someone just telling it like it is. That's one of the big reasons I love her songs, though I know this is not one of the best.

Anyway, I know I've said all this before and nothing I can say is going to make you like that song. :p It's okay, I just felt like typing. :laugh:

(Sorry that I did all this in poor Christine's forum. Shall I get into "Only Over You" and "I Do"--totally underrated Christine songs, IMO? Well, I just love those. I have a personal thing with them as well).

amber

03-18-2005, 11:34 PM

Much better. :woohoo:
You know you love me right now. Go ahead and say it. Pay me my first compliment... :lol:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:34 PM

dubyadubyadubya.idecidewhatisquality.dissention/notstevie.harsh/debbieD/critical.net[/url]

Well, you did recently tell me that I could have been Kael's twin because I don't like anything. :laugh:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:37 PM

"Dreams reoccur in my solitude
Breaking my heart
Injuring my mood
With all of the things that I thought I knew
It was you"

Great general verse about the pain of unrequited love, IMO. As a homosexual, I never tire of that theme. :laugh:

"Well, I remember
You caught my eye
It was late September
It was no surprise
He made me better
His songs were soft and tender sometimes"

This really had an effect on me the first time I heard it. It reminds me of someone I fell for in late September. Too perfect. Also the fact that the person is sometimes soft and tender and sometimes not. :shrug;

"Well the conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed"

Nice little universal part about love gone wrong.

"The conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed
Don't call me when you're lonely"

I love the addition of the last line. "I remember how heart wrenching it was and I won't forget, so when you decide one night that you're not actually better off alone, please don't call me." :mad: (Sorry, that brought back memories). :laugh:

"Well once more I tell the shadows of my soul
To stay back
Everything has changed now
And I don't want to go back
And nothing you can say can change my mind"

OMG. Oh how I love that. Do I even need to comment on it?

I still think of the whole songwriting thing as an analogy, like you depend upon someone who means the world to you to write your song, or to determine where your life is going and what you do and feel. Then you realize you can write your own song and don't need him or her. That is very liberating. And I really didn't think my interpretation was a stretch. I like it when it's an analogy instead of someone just telling it like it is. That's one of the big reasons I love her songs, though I know this is not one of the best.

Anyway, I know I've said all this before and nothing I can say is going to make you like that song. :p It's okay, I just felt like typing. :laugh:

(Sorry that I did all this in poor Christine's forum. Shall I get into "Only Over You" and "I Do"--totally underrated Christine songs, IMO? Well, I just love those. I have a personal thing with them as well).

I'm glad it does so much for you. I do like the last verse, though. But I enjoy I Miss You quite a bit, so... :laugh:

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:40 PM

But I enjoy I Miss You quite a bit, so... :laugh::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:laugh:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:42 PM

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:laugh:

If it's any consolation, I think the "Paris to London, London to Paris" parts are incredibly bad. :laugh:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:43 PM

You know you love me right now. Go ahead and say it. Pay me my first compliment... :lol:

I won't deny they were clever...and true. ;)

amber

03-18-2005, 11:44 PM

You know you love me right now. Go ahead and say it. Pay me my first compliment... :lol:
Ahem...still waiting...forever, probably...
dubyadubyadubya.itwillneverhappenAmber.Disstomean.bitchycakes.yousuck.com :lol:

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:45 PM

If it's any consolation, I think the "Paris to London, London to Paris" parts are incredibly bad. :laugh::nod: I think the way the words are put with the melody is the worst thing to me. I don't think it works, but I know, I know--this falls on deaf ears because most Stevie fans like it. I'll stop. :laugh:

amber

03-18-2005, 11:46 PM

I won't deny they were clever...and true. ;)
Almost...but not quite something complimentary...
www.bestIcanhopefor.ohwell/yourloss.com :lol:

PenguinHead

03-18-2005, 11:47 PM

It shows how hugely important she was to Fleetwood Mac over the years. When 1/3 of the rhythm section and 1/3 of the frontline of the band is gone, there's going to be a big, gaping hole. Obviously alot of other people have noticed this too. I also respect those Peter Green fans who pine away for that era too. Something tells me you wouldn't feel the same way if it had been Stevie Nicks who left Fleetwood Mac instead of Christine.

Hmm..you make a good point. I agree...Christine played an extremely vital role in the successful chemistry of Fleetwood Mac. I am sad that one of the five "Fireflies" is gone. Yes, I would be equally sad if Stevie or any other member, for that matter, left. Lindsey's initial defection was a real stunner. The band changed drastically...and not necessarily for the better. My first reaction was "Why?" I didn't long for his return....I never expected it. I respected his reasons for leaving.

I guess the critical point I'm making is...Acceptance. Change happens, especially for this band. For the fact that they did stay together as long as they did, broke up, and then reformed for one last hurrah, The Dance, I'm very grateful. Let's face it, the odds were against them from the Rumours era onward.

Yes, the band is not the same as it was. It is what it is now. (I don't compare one version of the band to another). And I'm glad that Christine, at this point in her life, has chosen the life she wants to live...not the life we want her to have. :cool:

I don't want to turn this into a debate. That would be ridiculous. It's just my perception of things.

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:47 PM

Almost...but not quite something complimentary...
www.bestIcanhopefor.ohwell/yourloss.com :lol:Great site! When I clicked on it, I got that site that you always get whenever you reach a site that doesn't really exist. Wait, that makes no sense. I gotta go easier on the Sangria. :shocked:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:48 PM

:nod: I think the way the words are put with the melody is the worst thing to me. I don't think it works, but I know, I know--this falls on deaf ears because most Stevie fans like it. I'll stop. :laugh:

Well, she's never been at master at putting words to music. Just look at Ghosts, my word. Or The Nightmare.

My only problem with an otherwise enjoyable song is that it seems as if she thumbed through The Book of Romantic Cliches and lifted lines straight from it. Some of the lyrics are mind-numbingly awful.

And you don't have to stop, I never do. ;)

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:50 PM

My only problem with an otherwise enjoyable song is that it seems as if she thumbed through The Book of Romantic Cliches and lifted lines straight from it. Some of the lyrics are mind-numbingly awful.Aside from the kinda harsh last line there ( :laugh: ), I think that could be said for every member of FM, really. They've all written some cliche stuff that was just borrowed from other stuff, for lack of a better way to say it. See, I can't do anything eloquent or original, either! :lol:

GateandGarden

03-18-2005, 11:52 PM

Well, she's never been at master at putting words to music. Just look at Ghosts, my word. Or The Nightmare.Okay, we won't talk about those :laugh:. But I think she's done a splendid job with putting words to music in the past. :nod:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:53 PM

Almost...but not quite something complimentary...
www.bestIcanhopefor.ohwell/yourloss.com :lol:

The links you've been providing throughout the night have acted as revelations. I click them and suddenly, without any warning, it is revealed that my taste is not good; that I've been praising and adoring utter excrement for years. Thank you, Amber, for I will never be able to repay you for the things you've taught me tonight. If I was groveler, I would be groveling right now. Take solace in that, my friend. I will now put I Sing For the Things on repeat and take off my cape for you.

How's that? :p

amber

03-18-2005, 11:55 PM

Well, she's never been at master at putting words to music. Just look at Ghosts, my word. Or The Nightmare.

My only problem with an otherwise enjoyable song is that it seems as if she thumbed through The Book of Romantic Cliches and lifted lines straight from it. Some of the lyrics are mind-numbingly awful.

And you don't have to stop, I never do. ;)
I like Ghosts, because I understand the phrase "it's just a ghost of what you used to be" and all the other phrases like that. :shrug: Mostly, though, I don't care about the lyrics, I just look for the notes I like, and I almost always like stevie's voice quality *addicted*. In reality, I think many, many, of her lyrics are really bad... :shrug: (there, I admitted it) but I also think she has really bad lyrics interspersed with good in the same song...that's why I ignore the lyrics and just glean the music (band, production) and THE VOICE. To be a stevie fan, I think that's what you have to do... :) :shrug:

dissention

03-18-2005, 11:58 PM

Aside from the kinda harsh last line there ( :laugh: )

I call it as I see it, after all. Writing a romance song and throwing Paris and London into the mix couldn't be any more cliched if she tried. No one must agree (though it would be nice).

I think that could be said for every member of FM, really. They've all written some cliche stuff that was just borrowed from other stuff, for lack of a better way to say it. See, I can't do anything eloquent or original, either! :lol:

Oh, definitely. Sometimes they've made cliches fresh, sometimes not. Chris and Stevie are the biggest offenders, but I, unfortunately, can't get to them in time. :laugh:

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:00 AM

I like Ghosts, because I understand the phrase "it's just a ghost of what you used to be" and all the other phrases like that. :shrug: Mostly, though, I don't care about the lyrics, I just look for the notes I like, and I almost always like stevie's voice quality *addicted*. In reality, I think many, many, of her lyrics are really bad... :shrug: (there, I admitted it) but I also think she has really bad lyrics interspersed with good in the same song...that's why I ignore the lyrics and just glean the music (band, production) and THE VOICE. To be a stevie fan, I think that's what you have to do... :) :shrug:

It's hard for me to get over atrocious lyrics, unfortunately. They set the mood for me and if she's moaning about depending on her music like a husband, I just want to say goodbye to this cruel world and end it all. :laugh:

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 12:04 AM

if she's moaning about depending on her music like a husband, I just want to say goodbye to this cruel world and end it all.To quote Niles, from 'The Nanny': "Alas, you say it, but you don't mean it."

:laugh: ;) :xoxo:

amber

03-19-2005, 12:06 AM

It's hard for me to get over atrocious lyrics, unfortunately. They set the mood for me and if she's moaning about depending on her music like a husband, I just want to say goodbye to this cruel world and end it all. :laugh:
I understand, but, I'm a girl, so... :shrug: Plus, I know Stevie's really not like that, she would totally kick some a-hole to the curb, and is just using the song to lament the love loss - lost because she had to kick the a-hole to the curb! Also, I understand what people tell themselves..."well, I had to kick this a-hole to the curb, and I'm really sad, but I have other things that get me through..." Yeah, she didn't phrase it very well, but like I said, I'm used to bad lyrics from Stevie, and mainly love her voice...you might even say...If I wrote a song..."I depend on her voice like a husband...helping me ignore the bad lyrics...it's just a ghost of what she used to be...or maybe never was, except for intermittendleee..." :lol: :lol:

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:08 AM

To quote Niles, from 'The Nanny': "Alas, you say it, but you don't mean it."

:laugh: ;) :xoxo:

Of course not. But it sure sings. :laugh: I'll raise you one, though:

"The next time you give your clothes away, why don't you just stay in them?"

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 12:10 AM

If it's any consolation, I think the "Paris to London, London to Paris" parts are incredibly bad. :laugh:It's actually "Paris to Rome, London to Paris"... if you're gonna tear the lyrics apart, at least get them right. ;)

Truth be told, I'd have liked that line much better if she didn't use Paris twice. But I can still enjoy the song the way Stevie wrote it... 'cuz I'm not an uncompromising sadist. ;) :laugh:

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:14 AM

It's actually "Paris to Rome, London to Paris"... if you're gonna tear the lyrics apart, at least get them right. ;)

Eh, I never piad attention to them much because I hated them. ;)

Truth be told, I'd have liked that line much better if she didn't use London twice. But I can still enjoy the song the way Stevie wrote it... 'cuz I'm not an uncompromising sadist. ;) :laugh:

A nihilistic sadist. Yup, that's me. :D

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 12:16 AM

Oh, definitely. Sometimes they've made cliches fresh, sometimes not. Chris and Stevie are the biggest offenders, but I, unfortunately, can't get to them in time. :laugh::cough: :cough: "Family Man" :cough: :cough: "A face as soft as a tear in a clown's eye" :cough :cough

:D

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:18 AM

:cough: :cough: "Family Man" :cough: :cough: "A face as soft as a tear in a clown's eye" :cough :cough

:D

I was speaking in terms of their entire careers so far, not any particular songs. I find Lindsey to be the least cliched of them all, though he's had quite a few cringers.

The Tower

03-19-2005, 12:20 AM

I'm glad it does so much for you. I do like the last verse, though. But I enjoy I Miss You quite a bit, so... :laugh:
Me too!! Love that song.

"Love Changes" sucks ass.... sorry, Hillary....

amber

03-19-2005, 12:21 AM

I was speaking in terms of their entire careers so far, not any particular songs. I find Lindsey to be the least cliched of them all, though he's had quite a few cringers.
They've all had cringers. This may be one of those threads where no one answers me, but I fully admit (as I did previously) that Stevie's lyrics are...spotty, at best. IMO.

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:21 AM

Me too!! Love that song.

"Love Changes" sucks ass.... sorry, Hillary....

Love Changes is the worst one on TISL, right next to Every Day and Too Far From Texas. Good lord.

I Miss You has a very dream-like vibe to it, I like it.

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 12:23 AM

Me too!! Love that song.

"Love Changes" sucks ass.... sorry, Hillary....:distress::distress::distress::distress:

Okay, I'm hurting for "Love Changes", but I can't bring myself to type out another long-ass pseudo-interpretation thingy tonight. :laugh:

dissention

03-19-2005, 12:23 AM

They've all had cringers. This may be one of those threads where no one answers me, but I fully admit (as I did previously) that Stevie's lyrics are...spotty, at best. IMO.

I've answered you. :shrug:

And I agree about Stevie. She was a divine songwriter for years, but then lost it, in my opinion.

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 12:27 AM

Love Changes is the worst one on TISL, right next to Every Day and Too Far From Texas. Good lord.I don't care for the country track on that CD, but

LEAVE MY LOVE "EVERY DAY" ALONE! IT'S THE SONG THAT GOT ME INTO STEVIE!!!

:shocked: Okay, I'll stop with all the melodrama. Eh, maybe. Just had to let that out. :wavey: As Celine says in one of her cheesiest English songs to date, "Everybody's talkin' my baby down." :laugh:

(But, damn it, Stevie can't even remember the friggin' words to that song when she performs it live! I've yet to hear a live version in which she really sounds like she gives a damn). :distress:

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 12:45 AM

She was a divine songwriter for years, but then lost it, in my opinion.So says the guy who digs Beyoncé. ;) :laugh:

GypsySorcerer

03-19-2005, 01:02 AM

Love Changes is the worst one on TISL, right next to Every Day and Too Far From Texas. Good lord.

I Miss You has a very dream-like vibe to it, I like it.

Add That Made Me Stronger to the worst-of TISL. :eek:

I like I Miss You. The vocal is very pretty.

amber

03-19-2005, 02:01 AM

Add That Made Me Stronger to the worst-of TISL. :eek:

I like I Miss You. The vocal is very pretty.
And I like TFFT. The vocal is pretty. :D

dissention

03-19-2005, 10:09 AM

So says the guy who digs Beyoncé. ;) :laugh:

Those who dig Enrique Iglesias should keep quiet. ;) :xoxo:

dissention

03-19-2005, 10:10 AM

Add That Made Me Stronger to the worst-of TISL. :eek:

I like I Miss You. The vocal is very pretty.

Oh, well, that's naturally the worst song on TISL. I didn't include it because I didn't want to state the obvious. :laugh:

PenguinHead

03-19-2005, 12:46 PM

Add That Made Me Stronger to the worst-of TISL. :eek:

I guess "worst" is a subjective term. I like that song. I see nothing wrong with it...it is one of her more unique songs.

HomerMcvie

03-19-2005, 12:58 PM

I thought this was Chris' forum? :sorry: :xoxo:

GypsySorcerer

03-19-2005, 12:59 PM

I guess "worst" is a subjective term. I like that song. I see nothing wrong with it...it is one of her more unique songs.

It's definitely subjective. :nod:

The music, especially, makes me cringe. Especially the opening bars of the song.

GypsySorcerer

03-19-2005, 01:00 PM

I thought this was Chris' forum? :sorry: :xoxo:

Isn't that what they say in the Lindsey forum, too? :lol:

HomerMcvie

03-19-2005, 01:03 PM

Isn't that what they say in the Lindsey forum, too? :lol:
I've only been there a few times. I've never seen Stevie's, so I'm not sure about that one. :confused:

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 02:51 PM

Those who dig Enrique Iglesias should keep quiet. ;) :xoxo:True... but, then, I'm not ragging anyone's writing skills and then declaring what a talent Enrique is! ;) :laugh:

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 02:53 PM

I thought this was Chris' forum? :sorry: :xoxo:Homey, this is Stevie Nicks' World... we're all just living in it. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

But I do apologize for my part in veering the thread away from Christine. Sorry Christine! :xoxo:

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 02:54 PM

I've only been there a few times. I've never seen Stevie's, so I'm not sure about that one. :confused:It's pretty ironic actually... on Stevie's Forum we mostly talk about Bekka Bramlett! :]

HomerMcvie

03-19-2005, 03:01 PM

It's pretty ironic actually... on Stevie's Forum we mostly talk about Bekka Bramlett! :]
Well I love Bekka, so I guess I need to pop over and visit sometime soon! :rolleyes:

HomerMcvie

03-19-2005, 03:04 PM

Homey, this is Stevie Nicks' World... we're all just living in it. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

But I do apologize for my part in veering the thread away from Christine. Sorry Christine! :xoxo:
Does that mean I owe Stevie some rent money?
Not trying to be a thread nitpicker here, but really, can't you discuss Stevie in her own forum, or Rumours forum?
Bah, Bah, Stevie. :sorry: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wavey:

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 04:20 PM

Homey, this is Stevie Nicks' World... we're all just living in it. ;) :laugh: :xoxo::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

So, about the lovely Christine...:lol:

wondergirl9847

03-19-2005, 04:49 PM

:cough: :cough: "Family Man" :cough: :cough: "A face as soft as a tear in a clown's eye" :cough :cough

The clown's eye lyric is from Can't Go Back...not Family Man unless you were saying them as two different things and then I'm an idiot. LOL I love the clown's eye lyric because of it's wierdness.

Anyways...I wish Christine had come on stage in London so I could have said "I've seen all five fireflies on stage", but alas...:( I'm not a super huge fan of hers like others here, but she's still a legend. :)

Also, I wish I'd had the cajones to go up to Lindsey when I saw him come out of the hotel that one night. ARG!!!! :mad:

macfan 57

03-19-2005, 05:03 PM

Not trying to be a thread nitpicker here, but really, can't you discuss Stevie in her own forum, or Rumours forum?

Ah, Homer's trying to restore some order here in the Christine forum. :laugh: :laugh: I also have no idea if they have this problem in the Lindsey & Stevie forums as I never go there either. :) It's like they're on another planet. I stick to the Pre-Rumours, Rumours, Post-Rumours & of course this forum for the magnificent Ms. McVie. :)

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 05:37 PM

The clown's eye lyric is from Can't Go Back...not Family Man unless you were saying them as two different things and then I'm an idiot. LOL I love the clown's eye lyric because of it's wierdness.

Anyways...I wish Christine had come on stage in London so I could have said "I've seen all five fireflies on stage", but alas...:( I'm not a super huge fan of hers like others here, but she's still a legend. :)

Also, I wish I'd had the cajones to go up to Lindsey when I saw him come out of the hotel that one night. ARG!!!! :mad: Oh yeah, I knew they were different songs. I said it that way because I think all the lyrics in "Family Man" are awful, whereas I love, love, love "Can't Go Back" with the exception of that part. And I have a tendency to excuse how bad that lyric is because he sings it so well that I just roll with it. But when I actually type it out, it's like :eek:!

Hey, at least you actually saw Lindsey in the flesh! :woohoo: I can't say that for myself!

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 05:38 PM

I also have no idea if they have this problem in the Lindsey & Stevie forums as I never go there either. :)We have a tendency to go off-topic in all of the forums. A thread can start out one way, and morph into something completely different.

In fact, that's happened since the original Ledge forum in 1997!

I always liken it to a conversation with family or friends, that veers off into wild and seemingly unrelated tangents, but often winds its way back around to the original discussion. :)

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 05:40 PM

Ah, Homer's trying to restore some order here in the Christine forum. :laugh: :laugh: I also have no idea if they have this problem in the Lindsey & Stevie forums as I never go there either. :) It's like they're on another planet. I stick to the Pre-Rumours, Rumours, Post-Rumours & of course this forum for the magnificent Ms. McVie. :)Aw, I visit everything! Well, except for those boards at the bottom that no one ever visits. :laugh:

And let me just say if I haven't said it yet that your banner is hypnotizing. Every time you post and it shows up I stare at Christine, since those are two fantastic pictures of her. Her hair and her face looks so great there; she's dreamy! :] And I love the lyrics you put there, too! :nod:

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 05:42 PM

We have a tendency to go off-topic in all of the forums. A thread can start out one way, and morph into something completely different.Usually, if a thread goes on longer than, say, 10 posts in any forum, it starts veering off topic pretty quickly! The best is when they turn into Brian and Curtis flirting fests! :blob2:

HomerMcvie

03-19-2005, 06:14 PM

Ah, Homer's trying to restore some order here in the Christine forum. :laugh: :laugh: I also have no idea if they have this problem in the Lindsey & Stevie forums as I never go there either. :) It's like they're on another planet. I stick to the Pre-Rumours, Rumours, Post-Rumours & of course this forum for the magnificent Ms. McVie. :)
I only go to those 4 forums, EXCEPT, when I've read everything, I sometimes read Chitchat.
Since we're on the Chris Forum, I've always dreaded reading the Chiffon worship on the Stevie board. That's why I've never even checked in. I'm all out of vomit bags! :lol: :lol: :lol:

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 06:43 PM

I only go to those 4 forums, EXCEPT, when I've read everything, I sometimes read Chitchat.
Since we're on the Chris Forum, I've always dreaded reading the Chiffon worship on the Stevie board. That's why I've never even checked in. I'm all out of vomit bags! :lol: :lol: :lol:It's funny that you should say that because I think we mock Stevie more than we praise her endlessly in that forum! :laugh: (Sorry Stevie! :xoxo: ) Hell, the last thread I started was for the sole purpose of ridiculing a photo of her! :laugh:

And by the way, macfan_57, I totally miss you in the Chit Chat forum. I love how we carry on forever about various issues in there, and I wish you'd come over with your input. :)

macfan 57

03-19-2005, 06:50 PM

And let me just say if I haven't said it yet that your banner is hypnotizing. Every time you post and it shows up I stare at Christine, since those are two fantastic pictures of her. Her hair and her face looks so great there; she's dreamy! :] And I love the lyrics you put there, too! :nod:

Thanks. :) Those might be 2 of my favorite pictures of her. I believe the picture on the left is from the Mystery To Me era & of course the one on the right is from the Tusk tourbook. It took me a few years just to figure out how to put them in my signature. :D

Those are my favorite lyrics from my favorite song. Thanks. :) By the way, I also like the Chris/Stevie banner in your signature. :) I like Christine's "Nobody's Perfekt" T shirt. :laugh:

macfan 57

03-19-2005, 06:57 PM

And by the way, macfan_57, I totally miss you in the Chit Chat forum. I love how we carry on forever about various issues in there, and I wish you'd come over with your input. :)

I've only occasionally checked out the Chit Chat forum, usually if I have some time & not much to do. :) I did notice there were quite a few politcal threads. I'm pretty liberal, but I don't usually like to get into arguments. :)

Serrart

03-19-2005, 07:29 PM

I find Illume extremely grating and ridiculous. Stevie gets kudos from me for putting out something so wildly different from anything else she's ever done before, though. It certainly shocked the **** out of me when I first heard it. If she took risks like that on a regular basis, I'd be pretty stoked, regardless of the quality of the material. Just leave the VSO gimmicks alone, kids.

It also has some of my favorite lyrics from her (though I remember Carne absolutely despised them :laugh: ):

I will not take you for granted
I wouldn't trade you for jade
Or for diamonds
Not for one minute
Not for anything
I need you to be there

She can keep the rest, thankyouverymuch.

It's probably my second favourite after Storms. I love the lyrics, I love the music (not the gimmicks) and I recognized the fear. I was in front of the tv when the second plane crashed in the other tower and the sensations I felt that day were too heavy for words. She gave words to that sensations I'm very grateful to her for doing it.
Said that, obviously it's all subjective, and I agree, it has incredible lyrics. :)

Romy

Johnny Stew

03-19-2005, 07:53 PM

Since we're on the Chris Forum, I've always dreaded reading the Chiffon worship on the Stevie board. That's why I've never even checked in. I'm all out of vomit bags! :lol: :lol: :lol:Ironically, the posters on the Stevie forum tend to take a far more critical approach to their discussions than those on either the Lindsey or Christine forums do of their subjects.

Sure, there's also the typical "worship"... but that can be found in abundance on this forum too. ;)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with discussing the things you actually LIKE about your fave... after all, there has to be SOME reason you consider yourself a fan, no?
An ability to discuss the negatives is a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily prove that you have any more intelligence or rationality than anyone else possesses. Usually it just means you wallow more in cynicism than others do. :shrug:

dissention

03-19-2005, 07:59 PM

True... but, then, I'm not ragging anyone's writing skills and then declaring what a talent Enrique is! ;) :laugh:

When viewed with most of the other mainstream pop songwriters today, I think Beyonce is quite talented. She's not going to win any awards from the Songwriters Hall of Fame (but, then, neither is Stevie), but I find her songs to be dependable fluff with enough of her personality and originality in them to elevate them to being a cut above the rest. She's a marvelous voice, she's got presence, and she has style. I'm hardly a huge fan, but I recognize her for the great talent she is.

But that's just my opinion. ;)

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 11:39 PM

Thanks. :) Those might be 2 of my favorite pictures of her. I believe the picture on the left is from the Mystery To Me era & of course the one on the right is from the Tusk tourbook. It took me a few years just to figure out how to put them in my signature. :D

Those are my favorite lyrics from my favorite song. Thanks. :) By the way, I also like the Chris/Stevie banner in your signature. :) I like Christine's "Nobody's Perfekt" T shirt. :laugh:Thank you! "Why" is my favorite Chris song of all time. :nod: And I love the "Perfekt" shirt, too. I think that's so cute!

GateandGarden

03-19-2005, 11:43 PM

I've only occasionally checked out the Chit Chat forum, usually if I have some time & not much to do. :) I did notice there were quite a few politcal threads. I'm pretty liberal, but I don't usually like to get into arguments. :)I understand and respect that. I've found myself driven to tears over things on too many occasions and then got angry with myself for getting emotional about a debate on a message board, so I totally sympathize with your feelings about not wanting to be argumentative. :nod:

SteveMacD

03-19-2005, 11:56 PM

LOL! I can't believe that there's still a debate about Christine coming back to the Mac. The only way we'll ever see her with the Mac again would probably be at a 40th anniversary show in England and maybe a guest appearance on an album. But her days as an active member of the band are over by her choice. Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band. SYW wasn't the best Mac album, but it wasn't the worst, either. Christine was a major part of the band, but just a part. The band has moved on. Christine has moved on. Let's talk about something else already.

Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking? The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well. "Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.

They had a better grasp on vocal harmony, and Lindsey's finger style is unique, but the overall Buckingham Nicks album plays rather nicely in the '67-'70 Fleetwood Mac catalogue. I think where they were different from the others is that they were more confident, comitted, and focused, and Lindsey actually had a notion of how to produce well crafted pop music. Also, I have to say that Lindsey was really the strongest (though not necessarily the best) male vocal the band had up to that point. Of course the 1975 album sounds superior to most of the previous Mac albums. But then again, it was recorded in three months, which was considerably longer than any other album up to that point. In other words, they approached that album with a much more professional attitude, and it paid off. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 12:08 AM

LOL! I can't believe that there's still a debate about Christine coming back to the Mac. The only way we'll ever see her with the Mac again would probably be at a 40th anniversary show in England and maybe a guest appearance on an album. But her days as an active member of the band are over by her choice. Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band. SYW wasn't the best Mac album, but it wasn't the worst, either. Christine was a major part of the band, but just a part. The band has moved on. Christine has moved on. Let's talk about something else already.I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris? We need more threads and posts in this forum, anyway! :laugh:

Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking? The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well. "Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.That is fascinating to me because I had never thought of those similarities! I know this won't go over well, but I personally like "Frozen Love" a lot more than "Oh Well," though. (I sure hope ChiliD isn't reading this! :sorry: ). "Crystal" does have a short of Kirwan thing going on to me, but then it also seems very Stevie to me. I don't see it much in the other two. I find it funny that "Lola My Love" is the only song off of Buckingham Nicks that I don't like and you've compared it to the only member of the Mac whose music I've never gotten into for some reason. :shrug:

SteveMacD

03-20-2005, 01:39 AM

I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris?

I guess I don't miss Chris because she's still making music. Sure, I'd love it if she had a major change of heart, but that's not going to happen. All I'm saying is that she was a member of Fleetwood Mac on twelve studio albums, two live albums, two greatest hits packages, a boxed set, and four live videos, not to mention all of the boots and the appearances she made with the band prior to joining and after leaving. I honestly don't think there's much more she could do with Fleetwood Mac. I guess I'm more interested in hearing what they do without her, and what she does without them.

That is fascinating to me because I had never thought of those similarities! I know this won't go over well, but I personally like "Frozen Love" a lot more than "Oh Well," though.

Well, they're totally different songs, to be sure. But there are similar elements. I like them both equally.

"Crystal" does have a short of Kirwan thing going on to me, but then it also seems very Stevie to me. I don't see it much in the other two.

To me, "Without A Leg..." sounds like Danny on "Future Games." For that matter, it also sounds somewhat like "Bright Fire," from "Penguin." As for CITN, it has a feel similar to some of Danny's work on "Kiln House," IMO. It just has a pure, folky quality that I associate with Danny.

I find it funny that "Lola My Love" is the only song off of Buckingham Nicks that I don't like and you've compared it to the only member of the Mac whose music I've never gotten into for some reason. :shrug:

Maybe it's because both can come off as an act. As much as I enjoy Jeremy, it's really hard to hear him. I hear Elmore James, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and some '50s country crooners, but it's hard to tell who Jeremy was. The other major players seemed to have a definite idea of who they were, or at least wrote songs that gave insight to who they were. Which brings us to "Lola." The lyrics just don't fit the Lindsey we know, and the song comes off as fake.

macfan 57

03-20-2005, 07:27 AM

Ironically, the posters on the Stevie forum tend to take a far more critical approach to their discussions than those on either the Lindsey or Christine forums do of their subjects.

Hmm...I wonder why that is. I've noticed it on the Rumours forum with both Stevie & Lindsey fans, but not towards Christine from her die hard fans. It just seems strange why it would be different with Christine. I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way. :)

MACFAN

03-20-2005, 08:53 AM

MACFAN

03-20-2005, 08:58 AM

Oh one more thing

Debbie Harry does not have a schtick.....puhleeze

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 09:34 AM

I guess I don't miss Chris because she's still making music. Sure, I'd love it if she had a major change of heart, but that's not going to happen. All I'm saying is that she was a member of Fleetwood Mac on twelve studio albums, two live albums, two greatest hits packages, a boxed set, and four live videos, not to mention all of the boots and the appearances she made with the band prior to joining and after leaving. I honestly don't think there's much more she could do with Fleetwood Mac. I guess I'm more interested in hearing what they do without her, and what she does without them.I see what you're saying here, though I think I'll always yearn for more of what I see as that impeccable three-part harmony, even if they started rehashing things. But, at the same time, another solo efforts (or two?) from Chris would be fascinating and it's worth seeing what more she can do on her own. :nod:

Well, they're totally different songs, to be sure. But there are similar elements. I like them both equally.I may love "Frozen Love" more, but I still love "Oh Well"--both parts. But it's odd to me that of all the versions I've heard, I like the one Bob Welch has on his compiliation His Fleetwood Mac Years and Beyond . I'm weird. :shrug:

To me, "Without A Leg..." sounds like Danny on "Future Games." For that matter, it also sounds somewhat like "Bright Fire," from "Penguin." As for CITN, it has a feel similar to some of Danny's work on "Kiln House," IMO. It just has a pure, folky quality that I associate with Danny.Ah! You see, this material I'm not familiar with yet. I've got Then Play On, Bare Trees, the big-ass Blue Horizon box set thingy, and some mp3s of solo stuff here and there. Since you said that, I'm thinking I may be missing a lot of what Danny's about because I haven't yet collected all the Mac stuff. Maybe I'll understand your comparisons more when I get that stuff. :nod:

Maybe it's because both can come off as an act. As much as I enjoy Jeremy, it's really hard to hear him. I hear Elmore James, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and some '50s country crooners, but it's hard to tell who Jeremy was. The other major players seemed to have a definite idea of who they were, or at least wrote songs that gave insight to who they were. Which brings us to "Lola." The lyrics just don't fit the Lindsey we know, and the song comes off as fake.I agree and was never able to articulate it as you have here.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 09:46 AM

Hmm...I wonder why that is. I've noticed it on the Rumours forum with both Stevie & Lindsey fans, but not towards Christine from her die hard fans. It just seems strange why it would be different with Christine. I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way. :)I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. :laugh: Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out! :laugh:

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. :shrug: Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time. :laugh:

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 09:47 AM

dissention

03-20-2005, 10:38 AM

I would hardly call Beyonce a great talent. She's good at shaking her ass, wearing some really tacky clothing at times. wearing next to nothing at times (or some dead animal), but a great talent :eek:

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I think she has quite the talent for writing catchy pop tunes and she has a beautiful voice. If you don't think she's talented, don't listen to her. Lord knows I don't listen to half of Stevie's material from the last fifteen years.

dissention

03-20-2005, 10:42 AM

Oh one more thing

Debbie Harry does not have a schtick.....puhleeze

In comparison to Stevie? Hell no. I'd like to know exactly what kind of schtick Miss Harry has. Her schtick twenty-five years ago was that of the dim blonde on stage, but not now. If you call reinventing yourself musically and progressing with your artistry on a constant basis "schtick," however, then I would agree in regards to her.

macfan 57

03-20-2005, 12:07 PM

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. :laugh: Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out! :laugh:

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. :shrug: Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time. :laugh:

I think you're right. :nod: Those two ladies' personalities are like night & day.

By the way, Chris really doesn't look "silly" in those Tusk videos. She's pretty funny, even though she is drunk. Of course, those videos haven't been widely seen except by die-hard fans.

dissention

03-20-2005, 12:13 PM

but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule.

Can you hear me laughing all the way in Louisiana, dear? :lol::lol::lol:

David

03-20-2005, 12:40 PM

Is the Mac better off without her? No, but they're still a hell of a good band.How can you tell -- between the dozens of producing, engineering & backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" album & the single dozen backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" tour?

How can you figure out what the hell you're actually listening to? More power to ya if you can.

Fleetwood Mac -- the actual members of Fleetwood Mac -- hides itself well nowadays.
Okay, now for my rant. Am I the only one who doesn't think that the union of Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks was all that earth shattering, musically speaking?"Earth shattering"? You've stacked your argument with a loaded term. Are we supposed to respond that adding LB & SN was nothing special, or that Fleetwood Mac was never all that earth shattering to begin with, musically? And then you go on to compare songwriting styles, as if that were the only criterion worth artistic consideration.

I would say the greatest artistic strength of adding the two Americans to the band, especially at that point, was that Fleetwood Mac became a formidable, experimental, accomplished force in the production realm. They had not been so in the early 1970s. There isn't anything, from a producer's or engineer's point of view, on albums like "Mystery to Me" or "Kiln House" or "Heroes Are Hard to Find" that is a very noteworthy engineering or production feat. But if "Rumours" were recorded in Serbo-Croatian & none of us understood a word of what was being sung, the album would still stand throughout the entire industry as the quintessence of gorgeous engineering & production.
The Buckingham Nicks album was musically similar to most of the Mac albums at the time. The band was named after the principle members, the album had male and female vocals, and it even had a couple of instrumentals! The interlude on "Frozen Love" sounds like it was inspired by "Oh Well, pt. 2" to my ears and the solo sounds very Peter Green-ish as well.Interesting point of view, but by no means universal or even widespread. I don't hear the musical similarity at all.
"Crying In The Night," "Crystal" and "Without A Leg..." sound like classic Kirwan. "Lola..." sounds a lot like something I'd expect from Jeremy Spencer.Steve, bless you (& I've known you for a long time), but you're reaching here. You could find hundreds of pop songs from the early 1970s & cite "similarities" between them & Kirwan's sound. If you reverse-zoom far enough, every continent on the planet looks quite similar.
Lindsey actually had a notion of how to produce well crafted pop music.You're on to something here, but it wasn't actually all that noticeable in 1973. He most definitely grew slowly into his ability, & then having achieved a certain skill level, pushed it further by reconceptualizing both his own role & the idealized role of the engineer/producer in the studio. He both benefited by the earlier creations of others & re-created.

(However, it wasn't until fairly recently that he procreated.)
Also, I have to say that Lindsey was really the strongest (though not necessarily the best) male vocal the band had up to that point.I can't agree. I think Peter was a splendid vocalist -- quietly anguished without being obstreperous (like the early metal screechers), beautifully modulated, & with an unerring sense of tone.
Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.You're not wrong, Steve -- you're just constantly marshaling your sociological phenomena in aesthetic considerations!

David

03-20-2005, 12:44 PM

I agree on all accounts accept the last part. Why not harp on the fact that many of us miss Chris?A bunch of the big fans of the first three years of the band still dwell on Peter & Jeremy being gone (I'm on the phone with one of them at this moment), so I would say go ahead & continue to dwell on Chris being gone.

It's always easier to tell the other guy what to do!

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 12:47 PM

Can you hear me laughing all the way in Louisiana, dear? :lol::lol::lol:Glad you liked that. :laugh: :)

dissention

03-20-2005, 12:49 PM

David

03-20-2005, 12:50 PM

I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way. :)
Like an evangelical's attitude toward Christ. . .

I'm not sure that sort of devotion really captures Christine's personality or spirit. She's a lot more wry, sardonic & critical, & not quite so woozy-eyed.

I myself approach Christine (& the rest of the Mac) the way she would approach her favorites: "Let's see how this all measures up"

HomerMcvie

03-20-2005, 01:12 PM

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. :laugh: Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out! :laugh:

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. :shrug: Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time. :laugh:

Hillary, that was the BEST assessment of the differences in Stevie's and Chris' fans that I've ever read. Perfect. :wavey: :thumbsup:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 05:00 PM

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. :laugh:I guess I just don't feel the need to remind myself, because I KNOW she's only a human-being, and I don't put that much power on anyone to begin with.
I don't fret over reminding others, because it's their deal if they wish to deify her... they're only going to end up disappointed in the end anyway, when mortality proves once and for all that she was only human.

The fans that I have the most bemused view of, tend to be the ones who seem to feel some obssessive-compulsive need to crucify (or ridicule) the woman at every turn. Does it really bother them that much if someone else sees her as perfect... and, if so, why?
Or is it that they're paranoid about being deemed guilty by association?
Or is it an ego thing, and they mistakenly think that demonstrations of cynicism are proof that they're so much more intelligent than those around them?

Frankly, I know what my I.Q. is, and, more importantly, I'm confident in my ability to reason and discern.
I also know that I view Stevie Nicks, quite simply, as a songwriter who happens to write the lyrics that move me moreso than any other lyricist has ever been able to, and happens to possess the voice that fascinates and entertains me moreso than any other singing voice I've ever heard.
I make no apologies for actually being fond of the woman, and being impressed by the way she's matured and grown over the years.

So I don't worry about being viewed as a sycophant, because I know the truth. The amount of Stevie's material that I'm not impressed by is dwarfed by the amount of material I am impressed by... and I've never seen a reason to dwell on the negatives. Especially when there are so many positives to focus on.
Plus, I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.

Basically, I make absolutely no apologies for being a Stevie Nicks Fan.
Never have. Never will. :D

dissention

03-20-2005, 05:07 PM

I know what my I.Q. is

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.

amber

03-20-2005, 05:10 PM

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.
I know mine, too.

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 05:25 PM

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.My shoe-size is 7.
My I.Q. is a bit bigger than that, but only just. :laugh:

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 05:47 PM

Hillary, that was the BEST assessment of the differences in Stevie's and Chris' fans that I've ever read. Perfect. :wavey: :thumbsup:Wow! Thanks! :)

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 05:57 PM

I guess I just don't feel the need to remind myself, because I KNOW she's only a human-being, and I don't put that much power on anyone to begin with.
I don't fret over reminding others, because it's their deal if they wish to deify her... they're only going to end up disappointed in the end anyway, when mortality proves once and for all that she was only human.

The fans that I have the most bemused view of, tend to be the ones who seem to feel some obssessive-compulsive need to crucify (or ridicule) the woman at every turn. Does it really bother them that much if someone else sees her as perfect... and, if so, why?
Or is it that they're paranoid about being deemed guilty by association?
Or is it an ego thing, and they mistakenly think that demonstrations of cynicism are proof that they're so much more intelligent than those around them?

Frankly, I know what my I.Q. is, and, more importantly, I'm confident in my ability to reason and discern.
I also know that I view Stevie Nicks, quite simply, as a songwriter who happens to write the lyrics that move me moreso than any other lyricist has ever been able to, and happens to possess the voice that fascinates and entertains me moreso than any other singing voice I've ever heard.
I make no apologies for actually being fond of the woman, and being impressed by the way she's matured and grown over the years.

So I don't worry about being viewed as a sycophant, because I know the truth. The amount of Stevie's material that I'm not impressed by is dwarfed by the amount of material I am impressed by... and I've never seen a reason to dwell on the negatives. Especially when there are so many positives to focus on.
Plus, I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.

Basically, I make absolutely no apologies for being a Stevie Nicks Fan.
Never have. Never will. :DI see your points here, but for whatever reason, I've always been annoyed by people who pretend like people are perfect. Or who actually believe it, which is worse. I guess it's because it's difficult to have a conversation with them. If you think Stevie is absolutely flawless, then you have a hard time looking past her and seeing what's good in other people. This attitude aggravates me, and I guess it goes back to being too concerned about what other people think, which is an unfortunate trait that goes along with being a young and insecure female. :rolleyes:

I know that she's only human, but sometimes I don't know it, you know? (No--I'm sure you don't because that makes no sense, huh? :laugh: ) Well, sometimes I'll immerse myself in her music, and then I'll get on the computer and read lots of articles about her and stare at tons of pictures of her, then I'll print out dozens of pictures of her, then I'll decorate entire walls of my room...and at some point I stop and look at what I'm doing and think Isn't this kind of crazy? Isn't this just another human being like me who just happened to get lucky and get rich and famous? It's like I don't believe that all the way sometimes, when I get caught up belting out the coked-up "Juliet" outtake and Stevie puts me on cloud nine. Sometimes I don't know what's real for a few seconds. Nearly an entire room full of pictures are staring at me looking all doeful or majestic or seductive or all three and I can lose myself in them easily. Sometimes I don't have a good feel for reality. Oh well. "It's just a feeling" that "sort of captures your soul." Or maybe I should take out the "your." Maybe it's just me. I'm the only one who's this crazy and now you'll all know how crazy I am and Marty and Lis will ask me to please stop posting. :laugh::lol:

And back to what Johnny Stew was saying :laugh:, about the people who criticize Stevie relentlessly. I always figure those people who do it incessantly aren't really fans. :shrug: They're the ones who prefer Lindsey or something like that and believe for some reason that we can't just all get along; they must pit Lindsey and Stevie against each other.

dissention

03-20-2005, 05:57 PM

My shoe-size is 7.
My I.Q. is a bit bigger than that, but only just. :laugh:

:shocked:

A 7?

Damn boy, you must be tiny as all get out.

David

03-20-2005, 06:02 PM

I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.The whole world is out to "prove something," Johnny, because every artist gets raked over the coals -- many a lot more so than others. You guys need to put Stevie criticism into some sort of context, & come back down to Earth. Stevie hasn't been treated any worse than thousands of other artists:

"If the right situation comes up, he doesn't mind repeating the same joke twenty times in one day." -- George Burns on Groucho Marx

"Miss United Dairies herself." -- David Niven on Jayne Mansfield

"Her nose: that red thin sharp snout -- it reminds you of an anteater." -- Truman Capote on Meryl Streep

"Became totally undirectable." -- Jackie Cooper on Loretta Swit

"He was after a career & adored making money & thought more of himself than anyone else." -- Artur Rubinstein on Vladimir Horowitz

"You can't put this man in a picture. Look at his ears -- like a bat!" -- Irving Thalberg on Clark Gable

"Her face is inscrutable, but I can't vouch for the rest of her." -- Oscar Levant on Zsa Zsa Gabor

"The elephantine capers of an obese mountebank." -- William Inge on G.K. Chesterton

"Everything he writes smells like a billy goat." -- Raymond Chandler on James M. Cain

"Normally a tapeworm keeps you thin, but it kept Callas fat." -- Anthony Burgess on Maria Callas

"You're too little & too fat, but I might give you a job." -- D.W. Griffith on Mary Pickford

"The cruelist thing that has happened to Lincoln since he was shot by Booth was to fall into the hands of Carl Sandburg." -- Edmund Wilson

"As an emotional actor, Welles is without insight, accuracy, power, or grace. In short, without talent." -- Walter Kerr on Orson Welles

"Any year after the invention of sound, film audiences could see her only as a figure of fun, a dumb creature jerking her sawdust heart around in a puppet world." -- Alistair Cooke on Sarah Bernhardt

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"Taller than I & with even bigger feet." -- Ruth Warrick on Garbo

"Her mental attitude may have been pathetic but it turned her into a great bore." -- Anita Loos on Judy Garland

"Since Godard's films have nothing to say, we could perhaps have ninety minutes of silence instead of each of them." -- John Simon on Jean-Luc Godard

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

"You have to have the stomach for ugliness to admire Carol Kane." -- John Simon

dissention

03-20-2005, 06:06 PM

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

Truer words were never spoken.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 06:09 PM

The whole world is out to "prove something," Johnny, because every artist gets raked over the coals -- many a lot more so than others. You guys need to put Stevie criticism into some sort of context, & come back down to Earth. Stevie hasn't been treated any worse than thousands of other artists:

"If the right situation comes up, he doesn't mind repeating the same joke twenty times in one day." -- George Burns on Groucho Marx

"Miss United Dairies herself." -- David Niven on Jayne Mansfield

"Her nose: that red thin sharp snout -- it reminds you of an anteater." -- Truman Capote on Meryl Streep

"Became totally undirectable." -- Jackie Cooper on Loretta Swit

"He was after a career & adored making money & thought more of himself than anyone else." -- Artur Rubinstein on Vladimir Horowitz

"You can't put this man in a picture. Look at his ears -- like a bat!" -- Irving Thalberg on Clark Gable

"Her face is inscrutable, but I can't vouch for the rest of her." -- Oscar Levant on Zsa Zsa Gabor

"The elephantine capers of an obese mountebank." -- William Inge on G.K. Chesterton

"Everything he writes smells like a billy goat." -- Raymond Chandler on James M. Cain

"Normally a tapeworm keeps you thin, but it kept Callas fat." -- Anthony Burgess on Maria Callas

"You're too little & too fat, but I might give you a job." -- D.W. Griffith on Mary Pickford

"The cruelist thing that has happened to Lincoln since he was shot by Booth was to fall into the hands of Carl Sandburg." -- Edmund Wilson

"As an emotional actor, Welles is without insight, accuracy, power, or grace. In short, without talent." -- Walter Kerr on Orson Welles

"Any year after the invention of sound, film audiences could see her only as a figure of fun, a dumb creature jerking her sawdust heart around in a puppet world." -- Alistair Cooke on Sarah Bernhardt

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"Taller than I & with even bigger feet." -- Ruth Warrick on Garbo

"Her mental attitude may have been pathetic but it turned her into a great bore." -- Anita Loos on Judy Garland

"Since Godard's films have nothing to say, we could perhaps have ninety minutes of silence instead of each of them." -- John Simon on Jean-Luc Godard

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

"You have to have the stomach for ugliness to admire Carol Kane." -- John SimonBut what about just in comparison to other members of FM?

dissention

03-20-2005, 06:15 PM

But what about just in comparison to other members of FM?

Does it matter? :shrug: Should I reserve my comments regarding Stevie because there haven't been an equal number made about Lindsey or Christine? I don't think so. I'm not worried about whether or not I'm viewed as being harsh towards Stevie, I've been harsh to them all to some extent. But if I make more "negative" critical remarks towards her music, it's because I have more "issues" with her music than I do with Lindsey's or Christine's. Everyone has their favorites and when forming critical opinions, no one is objective, after all.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 06:28 PM

Does it matter? :shrug: Should I reserve my comments regarding Stevie because there haven't been an equal number made about Lindsey or Christine? I don't think so. I'm not worried about whether or not I'm viewed as being harsh towards Stevie, I've been harsh to them all to some extent. But if I make more "negative" critical remarks towards her music, it's because I have more "issues" with her music than I do with Lindsey's or Christine's. Everyone has their favorites and when forming critical opinions, no one is objective, after all.Oh, I'm not blaming you for that. Your criticisms of various people and things are part of what makes this board so entertaining, so I'm not telling you that you should take it down a notch or anything! :laugh: I was just trying to make a point to David that I really think Stevie is criticized more than other members.

dissention

03-20-2005, 06:36 PM

Oh, I'm not blaming you for that. Your criticisms of various people and things are part of what makes this board so entertaining, so I'm not telling you that you should take it down a notch or anything! :laugh: I was just trying to make a point to David that I really think Stevie is criticized more than other members.

:laugh: Well, thank you, dear.

Whereas Le Stew may like to focus simply on the positive aspects, I openly admit that I love to look at the negative aspects that I see in their music and I have an affection for criticizing them just as much as I like to praise them. It's fun, though it certainly isn't always sustainable. When it comes to Stevie, I have more negative things to say about her than any of the other members because there are more things about her career and her music that I don't like when compared to the others. Those are the breaks and no one has to agree with me.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 06:41 PM

:laugh: Well, thank you, dear.

Whereas Le Stew may like to focus simply on the positive aspects, I openly admit that I love to look at the negative aspects that I see in their music and I have an affection for criticizing them just as much as I like to praise them. It's fun, though it certainly isn't always sustainable. When it comes to Stevie, I have more negative things to say about her than any of the other members because there are more things about her career and her music that I don't like when compared to the others. Those are the breaks and no one has to agree with me.Well, (oh, don't you love that word!!! :laugh: ), you know that I don't agree because she's my fave, but on the other hand, hasn't she released more material than the others, so doesn't that mean there's more out there for us to criticize? Also, doesn't she make more appearances and do more interviews and such, which gives people more reasons to criticize her? When I think about Stevie songs that I think are stupid as opposed to Chris songs that I think are stupid, I come up with more Stevie songs, but she has released a lot more music. :shrug:

Serrart

03-20-2005, 06:50 PM

When viewed with most of the other mainstream pop songwriters today, I think Beyonce is quite talented. She's not going to win any awards from the Songwriters Hall of Fame (but, then, neither is Stevie), but I find her songs to be dependable fluff with enough of her personality and originality in them to elevate them to being a cut above the rest. She's a marvelous voice, she's got presence, and she has style. I'm hardly a huge fan, but I recognize her for the great talent she is.

But that's just my opinion. ;)

I just hope she would stay away from Oscar night for a few years. I've seen her enough for a decade. :nod:

Romy

David

03-20-2005, 07:02 PM

I was just trying to make a point to David that I really think Stevie is criticized more than other members.Yep she is, but conversely she is idolized by more people than any of the other members, & she sells more albums than they do. That's why I tend not to think she's in any worse of a spot than the others are.

All in all, they're all treated just fine: lauded for their songs & their place in rock history, well paid, &c. &c. They've all had remarkably good lives thanks to their success.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:10 PM

Yep she is, but conversely she is idolized by more people than any of the other members, & she sells more albums than they do. That's why I tend not to think she's in any worse of a spot than the others are.

All in all, they're all treated just fine: lauded for their songs & their place in rock history, well paid, &c. &c. They've all had remarkably good lives thanks to their success.Ah, good points, IMO. More criticism, relatively speaking, but along with that comes more money and fame. :nod: And they're all doing pretty well with fame and money, anyway. Much better than I'm doing. :laugh:

Sorry that I'm not talking about Christine, Homey. :sorry: I was just singing "Friend" in my bedroom earlier, if that helps. :)

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:15 PM

A 7?

Damn boy, you must be tiny as all get out.:laugh:

I have very small hands and feet for a man. Which can be annoying at times.

Thankfully for me though... and, in turn, Joshua ( :laugh: )... old myths about shoe-size aren't true. ;)

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:16 PM

Thankfully for me though... and, in turn, Joshua ( :laugh: )... old myths about shoe-size aren't true. ;)Oh no, here we go! :laugh: :] :woohoo: :lol:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:28 PM

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:32 PM

I'd expect someone who despises Stevie to bash Stevie. I'm only surprised when someone who claims to be one of her "biggest fans," bashes her as if their very life depended on it.I might have missed something (or lots of things), but I don't think I've ever heard someone criticize her mercilessly and then turn around and claim to be one of her biggest fans. :shrug:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:36 PM

I'm not worried about whether or not I'm viewed as being harsh towards Stevie, I've been harsh to them all to some extent. But if I make more "negative" critical remarks towards her music, it's because I have more "issues" with her music than I do with Lindsey's or Christine's. Everyone has their favorites and when forming critical opinions, no one is objective, after all.
When it comes to Stevie, I have more negative things to say about her than any of the other members because there are more things about her career and her music that I don't like when compared to the others. Those are the breaks and no one has to agree with me.Quite honestly, I get a big ol' kick out of the fact that you've often decreed Lindsey to be your favorite, while you spend a disproportionate amount of time talking about Stevie. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

Poor guy can't even get his biggest fans to talk about him more than they do Stevie. ;)

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:38 PM

Quite honestly, I get a big ol' kick out of the fact that you've often decreed Lindsey to be your favorite, while you spend a disproportionate amount of time talking about Stevie. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

Poor guy can't even get his biggest fans to talk about him more than do Stevie. ;):laugh: Good point there! :nod:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:39 PM

I might have missed something (or lots of things), but I don't think I've ever heard someone criticize her mercilessly and then turn around and claim to be one of her biggest fans. :shrug:I could give you a long list of comments just off the top of my head. :laugh:

In private though. ;)

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:40 PM

That's absolutely true.
Of course, I've always known that Stevie has her detractors... every artist does. It is odd, however, that so many of her "biggest fans" seem to also be her severest and most unforgiving critics.

I'd expect someone who despises Stevie to bash Stevie. I'm only surprised when someone who claims to be one of her "biggest fans," bashes her as if their very life depended on it.

Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not talking about good, honest criticism. I'm talking about the many and sundry cheap-shots.

But, then, someone once said, "it doesn't matter what they say, so long as they're talking about you."
So, if one chooses to look at it that way, I suppose Stevie gets the last laugh after all: even the people who genuinely do despise her, talk about her more than anyone else in the band.

Good thing I've never professed to being one of her "biggest fans." ;) At least while sober...

If we're talking about her work from '75-'83, I consider myself a big fan. But after that? Forget about it.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:43 PM

I could give you a long list of comments just off the top of my head. :laugh:

In private though. ;)There's room in my pm inbox! ;) :laugh: :nod:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:44 PM

If we're talking about her work from '75-'83, I consider myself a big fan. But after that? Forget about it.Still, I find you discussing the years post '83 far more than you ever discuss anything before that. ;) :laugh:

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:44 PM

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:50 PM

Lindsey doesn't have mod widow dresses or Frankenboks or a large amount of bad songs to criticize. :laugh:You forgot the obligatory "IMO" for the last part of your sentence there. ;)

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:51 PM

Still, I find you discussing the years post '83 far more than you ever discuss anything before that. ;) :laugh:

Your point being? Maybe I would if people would stop starting "Street Angel debacle" threads or "Was RAL a Missed Opportunity?" threads or threads about her personal life and actually started discussions that I found interesting enough to weigh in on with my thoughts on her pre-burn out writings. I, for one, am too lazy to start them, I don't particularly believe that I'd get many stimulating responses (just lots of Lindsey/Stevie drama stories and theories that don't interest me), and I simply can't pass up an opportunity to gripe about her bad albums. Sue me, I'm only human. :p

But when material of hers that I have a great like and appreciation for comes up, you certainly cannot accuse me of not praising it.

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:53 PM

You forgot the obligatory "IMO" for the last part of your sentence there. ;)

:laugh:

If people don't know by now that my posts merely contain my thoughts and opinions, fug 'em! :laugh:

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:54 PM

Your point being? Maybe I would if people would stop starting "Street Angel debacle" threads or "Was RAL a Missed Opportunity?" threads or threads about her personal life and actually started discussions that I found interesting enough to weigh in with my thoughts on her pre-burn out writings. I, for one, am too lazy to start them, I don't particularly believe that I'd get many stimulating responses (just lots of Lindsey/Stevie drama stories and theories that don't interest me), and I simply can't pass up an opportunity to gripe about her bad albums. Sue me, I'm only human. :p

But when material of hers that I have a great like and appreciation for comes up, you certainly cannot accuse me of not praising it.All right, Josh, I am all for you starting a thread dedicated to the greatness of "Gate and Garden" and disccussing interpretations and what it means to us personally. I think that the "us" would be you and me posting, though. :laugh:

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:55 PM

I could give you a long list of comments just off the top of my head. :laugh:

In private though. ;)

Chicken****. ;)

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:55 PM

:laugh:

If people don't know by now that my posts merely contain my thoughts and opinions, fug 'em! :laugh:Okay, I just wanted to make sure I implied that I think there are plenty of bad Lindsey songs to make fun of. And Lindsey songs that I like but I know they aren't really all that great, it's just that I like them and that's that. :p

"Family Man" takes the cake, though. :laugh:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 07:56 PM

Lindsey doesn't have mod widow dresses or Frankenboks or a large amount of bad songs to criticize. :laugh:Ohh, I don't know about the lack of a "large amount of bad songs to criticize." :laugh:

Really though, I usually only see you rag on about a dozen or so of Stevie's songs. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty tiny fraction of her overall officially released output.... which numbers around 130.

Keeping those numbers in mind, it seems quite probable that there are actually more Stevie songs that you enjoy than there are Lindsey songs. ;)

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 07:56 PM

Keeping those numbers in mind, it seems quite probable that there are actually more Stevie songs that you enjoy than there are Lindsey songs. ;):thumbsup:

dissention

03-20-2005, 07:57 PM

All right, Josh, I am all for you starting a thread dedicated to the greatness of "Gate and Garden" and disccussing interpretations and what it means to us personally. I think that the "us" would be you and me posting, though. :laugh:

To be honest, it means nothing to me other than a pretty song to listen to. :laugh: It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but her voice is beautiful on it, I like the music, and think it's a highlight on TWH.

dissention

03-20-2005, 08:01 PM

Ohh, I don't know about the lack of a "large amount of bad songs to criticize." :laugh:

I do. I like 95% of his stuff. ;)

Really though, I usually only see you rag on about a dozen or so of Stevie's songs. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty tiny fraction of her overall officially released output.... which numbers around 130.

If that's the case, I don't know why I'm considered such an enemy of La Nicks.

Keeping those numbers in mind, it seems quite probable that there are actually more Stevie songs that you enjoy than there are Lindsey songs. ;)

Maybe so, but those are just numbers and they have no bearing on whether or not I prefer Stevie's work to Lindsey's. ;)

dissention

03-20-2005, 08:03 PM

"Family Man" takes the cake, though. :laugh:

It's got nothing on the likes of Sister Honey, When I See You Again, and I Sing For the Things. If anyone wants to know how to torture me, playing songs like those is how. :cool:

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 08:05 PM

To be honest, it means nothing to me other than a pretty song to listen to. :laugh: It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but her voice is beautiful on it, I like the music, and think it's a highlight on TWH.I think it makes sense. :shrug: I don't know what it means to Stevie personally, but it's one of her most meaningful songs to me. Of course, the significance I give it is very, very far from anything she would have intended for it, but that's me. But if I was going to try and figure out what she was thinking when she wrote it, I'd have to have her explain the numerous nebulous lines, to which I've given my own meanings. Gosh, I love it for what it helped me through.

Oh yeah, and I also like her voice and the music on it. :)

amber

03-20-2005, 08:07 PM

It's got nothing on the likes of Sister Honey, When I See You Again, and I Sing For the Things. If anyone wants to know how to torture me, playing songs like those is how. :cool:
Wow! I did want to know! Great - I love those songs. :thumbsup: By the end of the torture, I will I have forced you to squeal..."Yes, Yes!!!! I DO LIKE SISTER HONEY!!!!" :lol: :lol:

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 08:08 PM

It's got nothing on the likes of Sister Honey, When I See You Again, and I Sing For the Things. If anyone wants to know how to torture me, playing songs like those is how. :cool:Oh, I know you didn't! All of those songs are better than IAMWHATIAMWHATIAM. Puh-leeze. :laugh: Sure, her voice sucks on ISFTT, but the lyrics are far superior to the PopeyeSong lyrics. :lol: And WISYA, though awful, is better than Family Man merely becuase of its sincerity and her emotive voice in it. Yeah, I know it sounds ****ty and it's repetitive, but almost anything is better than Family Man, come on! And you know how I feel about Sister Honey! :]

Oh yeah, IMHO. :rolleyes: :laugh:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 08:09 PM

Your point being? Maybe I would if people would stop starting "Street Angel debacle" threads or "Was RAL a Missed Opportunity?" threads or threads about her personal life and actually started discussions that I found interesting enough to weigh in on with my thoughts on her pre-burn out writings.My point being that you spend far more time on the forum devoted to Stevie... discussing songs and albums that you hate... than you ever do on Lindsey's forum, who is your admitted favorite. ;)

(By the way, I'm just giving you a good-natured hard time here... nothing is meant by it. I enjoy your presence on the Stevie Forum.)

But when material of hers that I have a great like and appreciation for comes up, you certainly cannot accuse me of not praising it.Yes, you definitely do that. :nod:

Although you then usually mention something about that same song that you dislike. :laugh: :xoxo:

dissention

03-20-2005, 08:14 PM

My point being that you spend far more time on the forum devoted to Stevie... discussing songs and albums that you hate... than you ever do on Lindsey's forum, who is your admitted favorite. ;)

I already admitted in this very thread that I take a bit of pleasure in coming up with things to say about her crappy material. What more do you want from me, goddammit? :laugh:

(By the way, I'm just giving you a good-natured hard time here... nothing is meant by it. I enjoy your presence on the Stevie Forum.)

I know, dear. This ain't my first time at the rodeo. I'm a Josh, I know joshing when I see it. ;)

Yes, you definitely do that. :nod:

Although you then usually mention something about that same song that you dislike. :laugh: :xoxo:

Guilty as charged.

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 08:16 PM

I already admitted in this very thread that I take a bit of pleasure in coming up with things to say about her crappy material. What more do you want from me, goddammit? :laugh:He wants you to admit that you're a repressed Stevie fanatic just as I was once a repressed homosexual. ;) :lol:

Johnny Stew

03-20-2005, 08:17 PM

I like 95% of his stuff. ;)Ironically, it sounds like I actually like a bigger percentage of Lindsey's stuff than you do! :laugh:

If that's the case, I don't know why I'm considered such an enemy of La Nicks.And if that's the case, I don't know why you don't consider yourself one of her biggest fans. ;) :laugh:

dissention

03-20-2005, 08:21 PM

He wants you to admit that you're a repressed Stevie fanatic just as I was once a repressed homosexual. ;) :lol:

:shocked:

Oh, Stevie, I'll take off my cape for you.

dissention

03-20-2005, 08:24 PM

Ironically, it sounds like I actually like a bigger percentage of Lindsey's stuff than you do! :laugh:

More power to you.

And if that's the case, I don't know why you don't consider yourself one of her biggest fans. ;) :laugh:

I could never call myself one of the "biggest fans" of a woman who makes me want to gather up a step ladder and some rope. :p

GateandGarden

03-20-2005, 08:26 PM

:shocked:

Oh, Stevie, I'll take off my cape for you.:laugh::lol::laugh:

It was a real clear answer. ;)

MACFAN

03-21-2005, 06:32 AM

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I think she has quite the talent for writing catchy pop tunes and she has a beautiful voice. If you don't think she's talented, don't listen to her. Lord knows I don't listen to half of Stevie's material from the last fifteen years.

I Dont listen to her.

MACFAN

03-21-2005, 06:40 AM

In comparison to Stevie? Hell no. I'd like to know exactly what kind of schtick Miss Harry has. Her schtick twenty-five years ago was that of the dim blonde on stage, but not now. If you call reinventing yourself musically and progressing with your artistry on a constant basis "schtick," however, then I would agree in regards to her.

She acted like quite the dim blonde on a Diva's show. And her outfit was way to tight and the song sounded bad. Could have been an off night though.

I would not call changing your hair style/color reinventing yourself.

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 12:48 PM

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 01:33 PM

They aren't claims, they're facts. :lol:

He was fired as the Mac's manager for not keeping tabs on the money, he went bankrupt, he invested in lord knows how many bad real estate deals, he shacked up with Jonathan Todd, he released that vile book, he was the sole reason for Stevie quitting the Mac in the early nineties by being a jackass over Silver Springs, he has more get rich quick schemes than Miami has senior citizens (golf videos, wine, etc.); the list goes on and on. He's a talented musician, but brains are something he does not have, IMO.

is he really that talented?

dissention

03-21-2005, 01:39 PM

is he really that talented?

As a drummer? Not that much, I think he's overrated. He's competent.

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 02:04 PM

Precisely my point. Fleetwood Mac hasn't been a "band" in years, especially in terms of a touring band.

Yes, of course! After I saw The Dance once, I knew I didn't need to see them again. Especially after Chris left. I had the same question as David when I see them on SYW. Who the hell am I paying to see?

HomerMcvie

03-21-2005, 02:04 PM

As a drummer? Not that much, I think he's overrated. He's competent.
I've talked with a few really technically proficient drummers, who don't think much of him. He's -technically speaking- pretty simple. I think he does have a good "feel" though.
Would he work with a band like Rush, or the Police? No way. But, for a pop band, I think he fills the bill. Even if he would steal your silverware! :)

HomerMcvie

03-21-2005, 02:08 PM

Yes, of course! After I saw The Dance once, I knew I didn't need to see them again. Especially after Chris left. I had the same question as David when I see them on SYW. Who the hell am I paying to see?
Without Chris, I have little interest in seeing them live. ESPECIALLY with the backing band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd come way closer to wanting to see them still, if they were a five piece(keep Brett). The more they add, the more it detracts.

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 02:13 PM

As a drummer? Not that much, I think he's overrated. He's competent.

yes after 1977 i think mick forgot how to drum creatively

dissention

03-21-2005, 02:15 PM

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 02:16 PM

I've talked with a few really technically proficient drummers, who don't think much of him. He's -technically speaking- pretty simple. I think he does have a good "feel" though.
Would he work with a band like Rush, or the Police? No way. But, for a pop band, I think he fills the bill. Even if he would steal your silverware! :)

The problem I have with Mick is this:

from 1967-1977 his drums were better than average, especially with all the different styles thrown at him during this period. Green's blues, Welch's jazz/prog, etc etc

even his time keeping is questioned, which i won't debate

but really i think his personality is where his talent lies. that's pretty scary huh?!!!

GateandGarden

03-21-2005, 02:20 PM

Without Chris, I have little interest in seeing them live. ESPECIALLY with the backing band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd come way closer to wanting to see them still, if they were a five piece(keep Brett). The more they add, the more it detracts.Yeah, I can't understand why they keep adding people. I'd prefer just them. :shrug:

And about Mick, I imagine that if I ever get to see them, my bathroom break will be during his long-ass solo. :laugh:

HomerMcvie

03-21-2005, 04:03 PM

Brett gets on my tits. I can't stand him.
Well, I didn't mean really Brett specifically. Only that they need someone on keys.

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 05:18 PM

Brett gets on my tits. I can't stand him.

I totally disagree. I got to meet Brett back in 1992 when he was in Mick Fleetwood's Zoo (with Bekka Bramlett). He was extremely friendly and gracious with the fans. He didn't have the "I'm better than you" ego you get from a lot of studio musicians who work with the big names. If Christine won't come back, Brett easily gets my vote. I was happy when they added him back in 1997. However, I wish that he would have been the only extra musician, and his presence more limited.

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 05:21 PM

Would he work with a band like Rush, or the Police? No way. But, for a pop band, I think he fills the bill.

Actually, I'd put Mick somewhere between Ringo Starr and Keith Moon.

ThePenguin

03-21-2005, 05:23 PM

I totally disagree. I got to meet Brett back in 1992 when he was in Mick Fleetwood's Zoo (with Bekka Bramlett). He was extremely friendly and gracious with the fans. He didn't have the "I'm better than you" ego you get from a lot of studio musicians who work with the big names. If Christine won't come back, Brett easily gets my vote. I was happy when they added him back in 1997. However, I wish that he would have been the only extra musician, and his presence more limited.

I'd agree Brett is a lovely guy; I think he is a good addition/'replacement' on keyboards...but I could do without the tons of other people up onstage as well. A couple, oK, but there are too many drummers etc.

-Lis

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 06:15 PM

How can you tell -- between the dozens of producing, engineering & backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" album & the single dozen backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" tour?

How can you figure out what the hell you're actually listening to? More power to ya if you can.

Fleetwood Mac -- the actual members of Fleetwood Mac -- hides itself well nowadays.

True, but the same could be argued about the 1997 tour, which still featured Christine. I thought the SYW tour was as good as "The Dance" tour. IMO, one of the positive things we could say about the "Time" band is that it was just six musicians, only one of whom wasn't a member of the group (who was filling in for a member who didn't tour anymore).

"Earth shattering"? You've stacked your argument with a loaded term. Are we supposed to respond that adding LB & SN was nothing special, or that Fleetwood Mac was never all that earth shattering to begin with, musically? And then you go on to compare songwriting styles, as if that were the only criterion worth artistic consideration.

Let me put it a different way. The greater musical paradigm shift for Fleetwood Mac wasn't when Stevie and Lindsey joined. It wasn't as radical a transition as say when Bob Welch joined the group. In fact, I think that Buckingham Nicks was already on the same musical paradigm as what Fleetwood Mac had evolved into. In terms of musical style, they were pretty much on the same page.

I would say the greatest artistic strength of adding the two Americans to the band, especially at that point, was that Fleetwood Mac became a formidable, experimental, accomplished force in the production realm. They had not been so in the early 1970s. There isn't anything, from a producer's or engineer's point of view, on albums like "Mystery to Me" or "Kiln House" or "Heroes Are Hard to Find" that is a very noteworthy engineering or production feat. But if "Rumours" were recorded in Serbo-Croatian & none of us understood a word of what was being sung, the album would still stand throughout the entire industry as the quintessence of gorgeous engineering & production.

Which is basically my point. It wasn't a change in any musical paradigm. The band just became more focused on production. They did twice as many albums in the first half of the seventies as they did in the last. But, to be sure, the three at the end were of much higher quality because of the attention to detail. Actually, I disagree about there not being as experimental 1970-1974. I think they were more experimental with their material, but they just didn't seem to follow through.

Steve, bless you (& I've known you for a long time), but you're reaching here. You could find hundreds of pop songs from the early 1970s & cite "similarities" between them & Kirwan's sound.

I know. But the similarities between Buckingham Nicks and Kirwan, Green, Welch, and even Spencer is pretty remarkable to my ears. To me, the 1975 album is about as idealized a Fleetwood Mac album as there ever was. You could hear echos of "Bare Trees" and "Kiln House." You could hear echos of Peter Green. There were odd, mystic references, similar to those of Bob Welch (albiet in a completely different usage). It had all of the elements that Fleetwood Mac had built their career on, but featured two members who had nothing to do with the band up to that point. Best of all, they sounded as if they had been together for years. The sound was THAT natural. It didn't change anything musically too much, but rather it enhanced what already existed.

You're on to something here, but it wasn't actually all that noticeable in 1973. He most definitely grew slowly into his ability, & then having achieved a certain skill level, pushed it further by reconceptualizing both his own role & the idealized role of the engineer/producer in the studio. He both benefited by the earlier creations of others & re-created.

I also see that as a parallel to Fleetwood Mac pre-1975. Mick and John were pretty unremarkable in 1970, but were a force to be reckoned with by 1975. Just compare "Station Man" on "Kiln House" to a 1975 live show. Mick and John totally played it safe in 1970, but played their arses off in 1975.

I can't agree. I think Peter was a splendid vocalist -- quietly anguished without being obstreperous (like the early metal screechers), beautifully modulated, & with an unerring sense of tone.

Which is why I prefaced the comment with that Lindsey wasn't necessarily the best vocalist. Lindsey's a very versatile singer. He has a great, strong lead vocal, but can easily harmonize with other singers, which is why I say he had the strongest voice. However, if we're just talking lead vocals, yeah, Peter gets my vote hands down. Peter has the kind of voice that can easily break your heart in the best way.

chiliD

03-21-2005, 06:34 PM

To me, the 1975 album is about as idealized a Fleetwood Mac album as there ever was. You could hear echos of "Bare Trees" and "Kiln House." You could hear echos of Peter Green. There were odd, mystic references, similar to those of Bob Welch (albiet in a completely different usage). It had all of the elements that Fleetwood Mac had built their career on, but featured two members who had nothing to do with the band up to that point. Best of all, they sounded as if they had been together for years. The sound was THAT natural. It didn't change anything musically too much, but rather it enhanced what already existed.

I agree with everything EXCEPT the "echoes of Peter Green". I don't hear ANYTHING even remotely "Greeny" about the '75 album.

Wait. Never mind. "I'm So Afraid" has some "hints of Greeny" about it.

dissention

03-21-2005, 06:40 PM

I totally disagree. I got to meet Brett back in 1992 when he was in Mick Fleetwood's Zoo (with Bekka Bramlett). He was extremely friendly and gracious with the fans. He didn't have the "I'm better than you" ego you get from a lot of studio musicians who work with the big names. If Christine won't come back, Brett easily gets my vote. I was happy when they added him back in 1997. However, I wish that he would have been the only extra musician, and his presence more limited.

I wasn't referring to him personally, I've never met the guy. I find his over-the-top antics on stage cloying, myself.

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 06:50 PM

I wasn't referring to him personally, I've never met the guy. I find his over-the-top antics on stage cloying, myself.

i hate when he twirls on stage with his shawl and screaming like an old man and makes google eyes at LB

oh wait that's not brett :shocked:

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 06:53 PM

I agree with everything EXCEPT the "echoes of Peter Green". I don't hear ANYTHING even remotely "Greeny" about the '75 album.

Wait. Never mind. "I'm So Afraid" has some "hints of Greeny" about it.
Don't forget, "World Turning" was based on "World Keep On Turning."

chiliD

03-21-2005, 07:18 PM

Don't forget, "World Turning" was based on "World Keep On Turning."

Other than the words "world" & "turning", I hear no parallel between the two songs. Never have. :distress: :sorry:

jbrownsjr

03-21-2005, 07:34 PM

Other than the words "world" & "turning", I hear no parallel between the two songs. Never have. :distress: :sorry:

hell yes, that would be the biggest stretch ever in FM history

that's like saying rattleshake snake resembles rhiannon

David

03-21-2005, 07:36 PM

I'd agree Brett is a lovely guy; I think he is a good addition/'replacement' on keyboards...but I could do without the tons of other people up onstage as well. A couple, oK, but there are too many drummers etc.Why even use a couple? If Fleetwood Mac is four people, let them play whatever they can themselves.

Plus, I've said before, the problem isn't -- or wasn't -- Brett per se. It's his hardware.

does "The Chain" really require a Gem ProMega, a Korg Triton & umpteen unidentifiable module racks -- as well as a second drummer, a percussionist, screeching mimis in the backup line, & a second or even third guitarist?

I mean, Jesus christ. Here's what "The Chain" requires: two lead singers (make the 3-part verse harmony a 2-part), a fingerpicked electric lead, one bass, one drum kit, & a Hammond B3.

that's it. C'est tout. Nothing else. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It will actually sound better that way, & I might even return for a 2nd show because the textures will be delineated & recognizable for what they are, & you will be able to hear them alter from show to show, which is a gratifying experience.

There's just no need -- except a wrongheaded notion that your take will be higher -- to turn your rock show into the Dancing Waters sponsored by Sparkletts at Sea World, where you flip a switch & you get the same thing like clockwork.

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 07:38 PM

Other than the words "world" & "turning", I hear no parallel between the two songs. Never have. :distress: :sorry:

I agree that it's a stretch, but...

"The world keep on turning, I got to keep my feet on the ground" -Green
"World turning, I gotta get my feet back on the ground" -McVie & Buckingham

To me, "World Turning" is sort of saying that we (Fleetwood Mac) have to go back to being focused like the band was in the beginning.

SteveMacD

03-21-2005, 07:46 PM

Why even use a couple? If Fleetwood Mac is four people, let them play whatever they can themselves.

Plus, I've said before, the problem isn't -- or wasn't -- Brett per se. It's his hardware.

does "The Chain" really require a Gem ProMega, a Korg Triton & umpteen unidentifiable module racks -- as well as a second drummer, a percussionist, screeching mimis in the backup line, & a second or even third guitarist?

I mean, Jesus christ. Here's what "The Chain" requires: two lead singers (make the 3-part verse harmony a 2-part), a fingerpicked electric lead, one bass, one drum kit, & a Hammond B3.

that's it. C'est tout. Nothing else. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It will actually sound better that way, & I might even return for a 2nd show because the textures will be delineated & recognizable for what they are, & you will be able to hear them alter from show to show, which is a gratifying experience.

There's just no need -- except a wrongheaded notion that your take will be higher -- to turn your rock show into the Dancing Waters sponsored by Sparkletts at Sea World, where you flip a switch & you get the same thing like clockwork.

The greatest lesson I've learned from this band over the years is less is more, which is why the last two tours have left me a little high, dry, and significantly more broke! But, I think a lot of it has to do with Lindsey's obsessive tendancy to want to over orchestrate everything and Stevie's lack of confidence in her own singing ability.