Earlier or later writings better?

[GateandGarden]

Do you prefer Stevie's earlier lyrics or current ones? Do you think her songwriting is better now than in her earlier days of witches, faeries, angels, and blue lamps? We talked about this a little bit on The Legboard and I thought everyone here would have some insight.

I've noticed a dramatic difference between pre and post Street Angel songwriting. TISL was my first Stevie CD, and I assumed that the first four tracks were new because I didn't know any better (I think they're quite different from others like "I Miss You" and "Love Changes"), but I wasn't surprised to find out that they were demos re-recorded for the album. The newer material is quite different to me. On the Legboard, an article from 1994 was posted, (see thread) (http://p216.ezboard.com/ffmlmessageboardfleetwoodmac.showMessage?topicID=9326.topic) in which Stevie admitted that her earlier writings were "in codes" so that only a handful of people would know precisely what (and who) she was talking about. (I know almost all of that is really screwed up grammatically, so I'm sorry about that). That seems about right, since, from what I've heard, the writing is much clearer from Street Angel and on. There's also the hypothesis that various drugs allowed her to write the mystical, magical, and wonderfully ambiguous (in my book) lyrics of the early days.

So, what do y'all think? :wavey: (I know those are quite a few questions and ideas to explore there).

Hillary

[ontheEdgeof17]

I chose "Both Equally". Go figure. I admit it was getting sluggish in the late 80s/early 90s. It's been up to par again from The Dance until now. I can't wait for her new material! :thumbsup:

[Johnny Stew]

There were a few years there when Stevie's writing became somewhat spotty (the "Klonopin Years"), but I think she rebounded from that quite beautifully, and many of her more recent songs are among my favorites.

I chose "both equally." :nod: :)

[Sorcerer386]

While Stevie has had some great moments in her later writing, I have to say I prefer her earlier lyrics.

[takenbythesky]

I chose "both equally" as well. For the same reasons that Mr. Stew stated so eloquently.
--Justin

[Moony]

Well I would say both, however I do have a slight preference for her older writing. A lot of her new material is wonderful though, and on par with the writing of old.

Either way, I still can't get enough of the woman. NEW ALBUM PLEASE!!!!!

[GODDESS6]

the r both "enchanting" :nod: , the mysticalness tho runs thru all eras of her writing which is my fav part~ but to listen 2 her music from the very beginnings where she was more wide-eyed & innocent 2 being a veteran rock chick, it tells a story in there & i 4 1 love it ALL!!! :] :xoxo: ~

[dissention]

Earlier.

She's too self-conscious nowadays and her writing suffers dramatically. The messages aren't as universal as before and half the time it seems like you have to be part of a special club to understand and care about the crap she writes and sings. She needs to do what true musical artists do: search out new experiences and find new muses and sources of inspiration for your music. Stop dwelling on your goddamned relationship with Lindsey Buckingham, it's old hat and makes for shitty and boring music in the twenty-first century. Give me the masterpieces she wrote up until the mid-eighties and you can keep junk like Say You Will and Love Is. There's something about her writing that just evaporated about 15 years ago and while she's much better than she was a few years back, she still hasn't even come close to recapturing the magic of yesteryear. The only song that I can think of off the top of my head that is just as good as anything she wrote twenty years ago is Trouble In Shangri-La. If she wrote more songs that were as shockingly good as that one, she'd be ON FIRE and I'd be in awe.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Earlier.

She's too self-conscious nowadays and her writing suffers dramatically. The messages aren't as universal as before and half the time it seems like you have to be part of a special club to understand and care about the crap she writes and sings. She needs to do what true musical artists do: search out new experiences and find new muses and sources of inspiration for your music. Stop dwelling on your goddamned relationship with Lindsey Buckingham, it's old hat and makes for shitty and boring music in the twenty-first century. Give me the masterpieces she wrote up until the mid-eighties and you can keep junk like Say You Will and Love Is. There's something about her writing that just evaporated about 15 years ago and while she's much better than she was a few years back, she still hasn't even come close to recapturing the magic of yesteryear. The only song that I can think of off the top of my head that is just as good as anything she wrote twenty years ago is Trouble In Shangri-La. If she wrote more songs that were as shockingly good as that one, she'd be ON FIRE and I'd be in awe.

Oh please. Yes, I agree Stevie suffers from a certain level of self- consciousness but I think that goes with the territory. You look at her prior to the Street Angel album and then look at her now, you can tell she aproaches her endevors with a certain level of awareness. HOWEVER, to call her music SHITTY and accuse her of DWELLING on a relationship that may or may not have been (depending on who I'm speaking to with this post) the greatest love she's ever had is completely and totally assinine. You're telling her to act like younger artists and I believe we've already had this discussion before in one way or another. SHE ISN'T 25 ANYMORE. She's lived her life and been through some tough times whereas many of these younger artists haven't and a lot don't even write their own songs. What's she supposed to do? Go out and find another addiction so she can write about it? As far as muse is concerned maybe in her mind, the relationship she had with Lindsey was more satisfying to her than any other relationship could possibly ever be and who the hell am I to knock her for that? JMO.

I enjoy both now and then and IMO, her songs are still incredibly beautiful and incredibly relatable. Writers write about what they know and this is what she knows---heartache, addiction, love, loss, etc. Inevitably, that's going to be what she writes about and I wouldn't want it any other way.

[strandinthewind]

Oh please. Yes, I agree Stevie suffers from a certain level of self- consciousness but I think that goes with the territory. You look at her prior to the Street Angel album and then look at her now, you can tell she aproaches her endevors with a certain level of awareness. HOWEVER, to call her music SHITTY and accuse her of DWELLING on a relationship that may or may not have been (depending on who I'm speaking to with this post) the greatest love she's ever had is completely and totally assinine. You're telling her to act like younger artists and I believe we've already had this discussion before in one way or another. SHE ISN'T 25 ANYMORE. She's lived her life and been through some tough times whereas many of these younger artists haven't and a lot don't even write their own songs. What's she supposed to do? Go out and find another addiction so she can write about it? As far as muse is concerned maybe in her mind, the relationship she had with Lindsey was more satisfying to her than any other relationship could possibly ever be and who the hell am I to knock her for that? JMO.

I enjoy both now and then and IMO, her songs are still incredibly beautiful and incredibly relatable. Writers write about what they know and this is what she knows---heartache, addiction, love, loss, etc. Inevitably, that's going to be what she writes about and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Well, maybe I'm just thinking Marissa's all on fire!!!!!!!!!

PREACH IT ON SISTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Merf]

Oh please. Yes, I agree Stevie suffers from a certain level of self- consciousness but I think that goes with the territory. You look at her prior to the Street Angel album and then look at her now, you can tell she aproaches her endevors with a certain level of awareness. HOWEVER, to call her music SHITTY and accuse her of DWELLING on a relationship that may or may not have been (depending on who I'm speaking to with this post) the greatest love she's ever had is completely and totally assinine. You're telling her to act like younger artists and I believe we've already had this discussion before in one way or another. SHE ISN'T 25 ANYMORE. She's lived her life and been through some tough times whereas many of these younger artists haven't and a lot don't even write their own songs. What's she supposed to do? Go out and find another addiction so she can write about it? As far as muse is concerned maybe in her mind, the relationship she had with Lindsey was more satisfying to her than any other relationship could possibly ever be and who the hell am I to knock her for that? JMO.

I enjoy both now and then and IMO, her songs are still incredibly beautiful and incredibly relatable. Writers write about what they know and this is what she knows---heartache, addiction, love, loss, etc. Inevitably, that's going to be what she writes about and I wouldn't want it any other way.

PREACH THE TRUTH, SISTA!)(@*!()@!
:wavey:

[GateandGarden]

Earlier.

She's too self-conscious nowadays and her writing suffers dramatically. The messages aren't as universal as before and half the time it seems like you have to be part of a special club to understand and care about the crap she writes and sings. She needs to do what true musical artists do: search out new experiences and find new muses and sources of inspiration for your music. Stop dwelling on your goddamned relationship with Lindsey Buckingham, it's old hat and makes for shitty and boring music in the twenty-first century. Give me the masterpieces she wrote up until the mid-eighties and you can keep junk like Say You Will and Love Is. There's something about her writing that just evaporated about 15 years ago and while she's much better than she was a few years back, she still hasn't even come close to recapturing the magic of yesteryear. The only song that I can think of off the top of my head that is just as good as anything she wrote twenty years ago is Trouble In Shangri-La. If she wrote more songs that were as shockingly good as that one, she'd be ON FIRE and I'd be in awe.
I was hoping you'd go into a long-ass explanation instead of simply saying, "Earlier because her newer music is crap." :)

One thing I really don't get is how you say her music is not as universal now. Who can't relate to "Say You Will" and "Love Is"? But who feels they can really relate to "Sisters of the Moon" or "Bella Donna"? I imagine some listeners are too busy trying to figure out what the hell she's talking about in the last two I mentioned. But that is why I really like her earlier writings, because they are wonderfully vague and I come up with my own interpretations. They mean whatever I want them to mean. (Is this starting to sound like one of her lame Q&A answers? :laugh: ) I am tempted to say that her earlier lyrics have more depth, but do I just have it in my head that ambiguity and inimitability automatically equals depth? I'm not sure. I know that her earlier writings generally mean more to me because "Outside the Rain" can be about a number of things, some of which I have experienced, whereas "Everybody Finds Out" can really only be about a guy and a chick who are having an affair and the chick is angry with the other chick the guy's with. (I suppose EFO does fall into that category you mentioned diss, since it is one that doesn't have that universal appeal).

Now, it seems presumptuous to me to say that she needs to lose the Lindsey obsession. Do you really know that all those SYW songs are about him? I don't know; maybe it's common knowledge that they are and I'm just fooling myself in saying that they might be about someone else. But it pains me to think that EFO could be about Lindsey. How hurtful would that be to Lindsey and Kristin and eventually, their children? It's hard for me to fathom Stevie being so thoughtless and self-absorbed. I don't know; maybe it's all part of the game, just like how they insist on being affectionate on stage because, as Stevie has put it in articles, that's what people come to the concerts to see. I find that disturbing as well. :shrug:

And I thought she wrote "Trouble in Shangri-La" twenty years ago? I thought it was an old demo. Am I wrong? Whatever the case, I agree that if she came out with more songs like that one, it would be beyond awesome. I'll take more of that over "Love Is," "I Miss You," and "Say You Will" any day. (I still don't think "Say You Will" is "junk," as you say, but then I'm not going to agree with a lot of what I see as your over-the-top negative language in that post). ;) :xoxo:

Hillary

[Merf]

Earlier.

The only song that I can think of off the top of my head that is just as good as anything she wrote twenty years ago is Trouble In Shangri-La. If she wrote more songs that were as shockingly good as that one, she'd be ON FIRE and I'd be in awe.

So you can honestly tell me that none of the songs she wrote for SYW (the ones that were from recently, not "Smile At You" & "Goodbye Baby" obviously) were just crap? I mean, yeah, they weren't her best, but I think they were the best she's written in a long time (especially "Thrown Down" & "Illume")

[GateandGarden]

So you can honestly tell me that none of the songs she wrote for SYW (the ones that were from recently, not "Smile At You" & "Goodbye Baby" obviously) were just crap? I mean, yeah, they weren't her best, but I think they were the best she's written in a long time (especially "Thrown Down" & "Illume")I know I'm not dissention and this was directed at him, but I don't think the songs on SYW are nearly as good as her earlier writings. I still enjoy most of her SYW material. I think you said it--they're the best she's written in a long time, but not the best ever.

Hillary

[Merf]

I know I'm not dissention and this was directed at him, but I don't think the songs on SYW are nearly as good as her earlier writings. I still enjoy most of her SYW material. I think you said it--they're the best she's written in a long time, but not the best ever.

Hillary

That's why I said they were the best she'd written in a long time. Come on people, they were MUCH better than anything on Street Angel & "Sweet Girl."

[amber]

Well, maybe I'm just thinking Marissa's all on fire!!!!!!!!!

PREACH IT ON SISTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I second that emotion.

[GateandGarden]

That's why I said they were the best she'd written in a long time. Come on people, they were MUCH better than anything on Street Angel & "Sweet Girl."I agree. Except maybe in the case of EFO; I just don't think that one represents great songwriting necessarily. I like it, but I tend to think "Blue Denim" has better lyrics. That's very debatable, I know. Well, all of this is. Especially after dissention brought in the unkind language. :wavey:

Hillary

[DrummerDeanna]

It's ALL debatable - but it'd be a silly debate as this stuff is all relative....someone's favorite Stevie stuff is someone elses worst Stevie stuff etc....

I chose "both equally" because I can find writing from ALL Stevie eras that I love and writing that I dislike...I think she is in a completely different place now than back then - and her writing has changed - some think for the worst...some say for the better...but whatever...I love it all!!!

[skcin]

And I thought she wrote "Trouble in Shangri-La" twenty years ago? I thought it was an old demo. Am I wrong? Whatever the case, I agree that if she came out with more songs like that one, it would be beyond awesome. I'll take more of that over "Love Is," "I Miss You," and "Say You Will" any day. (I still don't think "Say You Will" is "junk," as you say, but then I'm not going to agree with a lot of what I see as your over-the-top negative language in that post). ;) :xoxo:

Hillary

Nope, TISL was written around 94 or 95, right after she got off the Klonopin. She's said it was inspired by the OJ trial - having someone "so beloved" do something to screw it up so bad & lose it all.

As far as her writing, I can't honestly say that her current writing is as good as earlier work (say, 75 - 83) but it's definitely up there.

The only era that I think is subpar is from around 87-94. It's not all bad, it's just not as great as pre or post.

[GateandGarden]

Nope, TISL was written around 94 or 95, right after she got off the Klonopin. She's said it was inspired by the OJ trial - having someone "so beloved" do something to screw it up so bad & lose it all.
Oh! For some reason, I was under the impression that TISL was much older. Thanks for the info!

Hillary

[skcin]

That's why I said they were the best she'd written in a long time. Come on people, they were MUCH better than anything on Street Angel & "Sweet Girl."


I love Sweet Girl. :shrug: "...still through the sunlight days I wait, track a ghost through the fog, the sun is burning me, and you come walking out in the wind with me, the ocean is your blanket." I LOVE that line! :o

[GateandGarden]

I love Sweet Girl. :shrug: "...still through the sunlight days I wait, track a ghost through the fog, the sun is burning me, and you come walking out in the wind with me, the ocean is your blanket." I LOVE that line! :oYeah, I think that one also has better lyrics than songs on SYW like "Say You Will" and "EFO." :shrug:

Hillary

[ontheEdgeof17]

Yeah, I think that one also has better lyrics than songs on SYW like "Say You Will" and "EFO." :shrug:

Hillary



What's so bad with those two songs? Say You Will's chorus is repeated too much, but the verse lyrics are pretty good. :nod: As with EFO, it's perfection, lyric-wise (except for "most of the time").

[GardenStateGirlie]

As with EFO, it's perfection, lyric-wise (except for "most of the time").

I've always thought the "most of the time" was a shot at the "other woman." As if to say even when he's not physically with me and is with you? his heart and his mind are with me. Hence, "most of the time."

Love EFO.

[amber]

I love Sweet Girl. :shrug: "...still through the sunlight days I wait, track a ghost through the fog, the sun is burning me, and you come walking out in the wind with me, the ocean is your blanket." I LOVE that line! :o
oh, she says track a ghost again? Hmmm, I thought it was something else. guess not.
But - I think she says "you come running out in the wind with"
I also love this song. mainly the last verse, but still.

[amber]

I've always thought the "most of the time" was a shot at the "other woman." As if to say even when he's not physically with me and is with you? his heart and his mind are with me. Hence, "most of the time."

Love EFO.
me, too. I don't think it's a great lyric, though. It clunks a little.

[ontheEdgeof17]

me, too. I don't think it's a great lyric, though. It clunks a little.


My point, exactly. The "I do have him" is powerful...then "most of the time" is just there.....an after thought that doesn't fit lyrically or with the music.

[GardenStateGirlie]

My point, exactly. The "I do have him" is powerful...then "most of the time" is just there.....an after thought that doesn't fit lyrically or with the music.

Maybe in her mind the "most of the time" is an after thought? Maybe she thinks she does have him all the time but then realizes that the other woman has this man in a capacity that she does not. Just a thought...

[amber]

Maybe in her mind the "most of the time" is an after thought? Maybe she thinks she does have him all the time but then realizes that the other woman has this man in a capacity that she does not. Just a thought...
I think you're right. But I don't think we're questioning the intention of the lyric, but the actual words chosen to express it - they do not flow very well. At least, that's what i'm saying. :shrug: I love EFO, to... :)

[ontheEdgeof17]

Maybe in her mind the "most of the time" is an after thought? Maybe she thinks she does have him all the time but then realizes that the other woman has this man in a capacity that she does not. Just a thought...

Agreed. I'm just ranting over the flow and tone and placement of the line. It just doesn't fit for me. :wavey:




I think you're right. But I don't think we're questioning the intention of the lyric, but the actual words chosen to express it - they do not flow very well. At least, that's what i'm saying. :shrug: I love EFO, to... :)

What she said. :xoxo:

[GardenStateGirlie]

I think you're right. But I don't think we're questioning the intention of the lyric, but the actual words chosen to express it - they do not flow very well. At least, that's what i'm saying. :shrug: I love EFO, to... :)

No no, i'm not saying you guys don't like it, i'm just trying to possibly provide a reason as to why she chose to use the words that she did :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

What's so bad with those two songs? Say You Will's chorus is repeated too much, but the verse lyrics are pretty good. :nod: As with EFO, it's perfection, lyric-wise (except for "most of the time").They both strike me as shallow, lyrically. The subject matter is not shallow but I do think most of the way it's presented is.

That being said, I still love both of those songs. Especially "Say You Will." I find it irresistable.

Hillary

[ontheEdgeof17]

No no, i'm not saying you guys don't like it, i'm just trying to possibly provide a reason as to why she chose to use the words that she did :wavey:

For me, she is saying that even though this other person is connected to him and "has him", she has him, too....most of the time. She may not be living with him or eating dinner with him, he is thinking of Stevie during those times. So, even though this man is physically with this other woman, he's not mentally.

[dissention]

So you can honestly tell me that none of the songs she wrote for SYW (the ones that were from recently, not "Smile At You" & "Goodbye Baby" obviously) were just crap? I mean, yeah, they weren't her best, but I think they were the best she's written in a long time (especially "Thrown Down" & "Illume")

I wouldn't say they're crap because they're much better than some of her other newer material, but they aren't classics by any means. Say You Will is fluff and I can listen to it as fluff, but it's too cliched and bland. She sleepwalks through it. Everybody Finds Out is great and has a phenomenal vocal, but some of the lyrics are cringeworthy. "She gets on a midnioght plane, she's done it a thousand times" is stupefying. Illume has superb lyrics overall but the song itself is too monotone and it goes absolutely nowhere. Y'all know my opinion on Thrown Down, I can't stand it. I'm one of the few who likes Silver Girl just based on the portrait she paints in it.

[dissention]

Oh please. Yes, I agree Stevie suffers from a certain level of self- consciousness but I think that goes with the territory. You look at her prior to the Street Angel album and then look at her now, you can tell she aproaches her endevors with a certain level of awareness. HOWEVER, to call her music SHITTY and accuse her of DWELLING on a relationship that may or may not have been (depending on who I'm speaking to with this post) the greatest love she's ever had is completely and totally assinine. You're telling her to act like younger artists and I believe we've already had this discussion before in one way or another. SHE ISN'T 25 ANYMORE. She's lived her life and been through some tough times whereas many of these younger artists haven't and a lot don't even write their own songs. What's she supposed to do? Go out and find another addiction so she can write about it? As far as muse is concerned maybe in her mind, the relationship she had with Lindsey was more satisfying to her than any other relationship could possibly ever be and who the hell am I to knock her for that? JMO.

I'm telling her to act like younger artists? Quote me.

She does dwell on a relationship that's been over since the seventies. Thrown Down is proof of that. Some may enjoy it, as you do, but I find it repetitive and dull. Maybe he is her muse, but it doesn't make the current music up to snuff for some people.

[DeadliestPoison]

Everybody Finds Out is great and has a phenomenal vocal, but some of the lyrics are cringeworthy. "She gets on a midnioght plane, she's done it a thousand times" is stupefying.
See, I like that line. It sort of reminds me of Casablanca, and I guess the song could fit in with the Casablanca image to an extent.

But I loooooove EFO, so maybe I'm biased. The vocal's phenomenal, the music's great, I think the lyrics are stellar - they're relatively straight-forward and everyone can figure out what it's dealing with (a woman torn between two men). Whereas with Sara, my most hated song ever ;), the lyrics are ~*shrouded in mystery*~ and the music's all fluffy and light and her voice is so ~~soft~ delicate~ magyckal~~ that I just can't stand it. And it goes on F O R E V E R.

[dissention]

I was hoping you'd go into a long-ass explanation instead of simply saying, "Earlier because her newer music is crap." :)

One thing I really don't get is how you say her music is not as universal now. Who can't relate to "Say You Will" and "Love Is"? But who feels they can really relate to "Sisters of the Moon" or "Bella Donna"? I imagine some listeners are too busy trying to figure out what the hell she's talking about in the last two I mentioned. But that is why I really like her earlier writings, because they are wonderfully vague and I come up with my own interpretations. They mean whatever I want them to mean. (Is this starting to sound like one of her lame Q&A answers? :laugh: ) I am tempted to say that her earlier lyrics have more depth, but do I just have it in my head that ambiguity and inimitability automatically equals depth? I'm not sure. I know that her earlier writings generally mean more to me because "Outside the Rain" can be about a number of things, some of which I have experienced, whereas "Everybody Finds Out" can really only be about a guy and a chick who are having an affair and the chick is angry with the other chick the guy's with. (I suppose EFO does fall into that category you mentioned diss, since it is one that doesn't have that universal appeal).

Now, it seems presumptuous to me to say that she needs to lose the Lindsey obsession. Do you really know that all those SYW songs are about him? I don't know; maybe it's common knowledge that they are and I'm just fooling myself in saying that they might be about someone else. But it pains me to think that EFO could be about Lindsey. How hurtful would that be to Lindsey and Kristin and eventually, their children? It's hard for me to fathom Stevie being so thoughtless and self-absorbed. I don't know; maybe it's all part of the game, just like how they insist on being affectionate on stage because, as Stevie has put it in articles, that's what people come to the concerts to see. I find that disturbing as well. :shrug:

And I thought she wrote "Trouble in Shangri-La" twenty years ago? I thought it was an old demo. Am I wrong? Whatever the case, I agree that if she came out with more songs like that one, it would be beyond awesome. I'll take more of that over "Love Is," "I Miss You," and "Say You Will" any day. (I still don't think "Say You Will" is "junk," as you say, but then I'm not going to agree with a lot of what I see as your over-the-top negative language in that post). ;) :xoxo:

Hillary

I gave a long ass explanation a few weeks ago:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=230849&postcount=248

I think that the big reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of her later work is because, for me, something about her writing started to awry in the late eighties and the songs became much less relatable than they were before. I think she's at her best when there's a large sense of ambiguity to her songs. When she started to write songs like "Ghosts," "Two Kinds of Love," "That Made Me Stronger," "Sweet Girl," "Silver Girl," "Welcome to the Room Sara," and others along those lines, the songs became less universal and too personal in detail for me to enjoy very much. I know that I, personally, really have no desire to know how Stevie's depends on her music like a husband or how she talked to her famous friend last night. I don't know the woman, and never will, so it just strikes me as TMI and it begins to cloy. Others like that stuff and more power to them if they enjoy it, but I enjoy her work that doesn't explicitly refer to herself and her career and her dinners with friends about her songwriting. I can't get into them because I have a hard time relating. I like Silver Girl because it's quite vivid, but I don't enjoy it on the same level as something like Sable On Blonde because I'm not a girly-girl, I'm not lost in a hardcore world, and I don't have or look like a million bucks. It may just be me, but I listen to those songs and really don't give a fiddler's fig. Unfortunately, that's the turn her writing took and I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I think she's a master at taking incredibly personal feelings and emotions and writing them into songs everyone can relate to, but I think she lost a bit of that over the years. Doesn't mean she can't be good when she wants to be because she can still knock her material out of the park, but I think it's come to point where for every fabulous song she records, she records a stinker to go along with it. Maybe she's run out of ideas or maybe I'm just a cold prick with no empathy or emotion, who knows. But those are the reasons I, personally, don't enjoy her new material that much.

As for the rest of your post:

1. Trouble In Shangri-La was written in 1995, which is amazing to me.
2. EFO is a good song, but it's another one of her "me songs." And those are the ones I absolutely despise, normally. Thankfully, she doesn't go as overboard as she does on songs like That Made Me Stronger, which makes it listenable.
3. No one knows if all the SYW are about Lindsey, half the time I think that the two of them are just bullshit artists who continue to create the "drama" and "romance" to sell albums and make cash (that's certainly their onstage schtick). But the fact that she still writes songs (Thrown Down) about this particular guy after their relationship ended almost 30 years ago is just odd to me. If she wants to do so that's fine, but I've lost interest in those particular songs for the most part.

:wavey:

[dissention]

It's ALL debatable - but it'd be a silly debate as this stuff is all relative....someone's favorite Stevie stuff is someone elses worst Stevie stuff etc....

Exactly. ;) :wavey:

[dissention]

What's so bad with those two songs? Say You Will's chorus is repeated too much, but the verse lyrics are pretty good. :nod: As with EFO, it's perfection, lyric-wise (except for "most of the time").

I can't get over the unfinished train of thought in the first verse of SYW. It drives me mad. :laugh:

[amber]

Exactly. ;) :wavey:
yep - for instance, I don't care much for Bella Donna :shrug: with some notable exceptions, of course.

[dissention]

yep - for instance, I don't care much for Bella Donna :shrug: with some notable exceptions, of course.

I like it, minus Think About It, some of the title track (rather cloying), The Highwayman, and After the Glitter Fades. :woohoo: Not my favorite by any means, though.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I'm telling her to act like younger artists? Quote me.

She does dwell on a relationship that's been over since the seventies. Thrown Down is proof of that. Some may enjoy it, as you do, but I find it repetitive and dull. Maybe he is her muse, but it doesn't make the current music up to snuff for some people.

To me, you're insinuating that she's not experiencing life like other musical artists are who perhaps haven't been around as long she. Just remember (oh wait, you never fail to remind us) Stevie's a lot older than many artists and she's been through many experiences in her life that a lot of these other people perhaps never went through. Not to mention, she's a different type of writer and her calling card has always been romanticism. Like I said, writers write about what they know, what they experience. What else does she have left to pull from? SHE'S WRITTEN IT ALL because she's experienced most topics covered in lyric form in some way or another. How many "new" experiences could she possibly have that wouldn't garner the same results? This is who she is and she's been this way for 30 years. She's not going to change. I don't want her to.

Thrown Down is hardly proof that she's dwelling on the past. "He fell for her again, she watched it happen." I don't need to belong to some "special club" to figure out what she's talking about. It couldn't be any more black and white unless she used names.

Call it repetitive and dull but don't refer to it as "shitty."

[dissention]

Call it repetitive and dull but don't refer to it as "shitty."

I'll call it whatever I please, that's why it's my opinion and not yours. ;)

[amber]

I like it, minus Think About It, some of the title track (rather cloying), The Highwayman, and After the Glitter Fades. :woohoo: Not my favorite by any means, though.
rather cloying? sheesh. Although i do like a bit of the vocal. When she goes.."Belladonna" :laugh: in that low, sexy way.

[dissention]

rather cloying? sheesh. Although i do like a bit of the vocal. When she goes.."Belladonna" :laugh: in that low, sexy way.

Well, the pony and phoney line is beyond words because it's so bad, but I like when it gets very low and then kicks back up towards the end. Love that part. :D

[amber]

Well, the pony and phoney line is beyond words because it's so bad, but I like when it gets very low and then kicks back up towards the end. Love that part. :D
yeah. Vocally, it is interesting. And pretty.

[GateandGarden]

I gave a long ass explanation a few weeks ago:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=230849&postcount=248

I think that the big reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of her later work is because, for me, something about her writing started to awry in the late eighties and the songs became much less relatable than they were before. I think she's at her best when there's a large sense of ambiguity to her songs. When she started to write songs like "Ghosts," "Two Kinds of Love," "That Made Me Stronger," "Sweet Girl," "Silver Girl," "Welcome to the Room Sara," and others along those lines, the songs became less universal and too personal in detail for me to enjoy very much. I know that I, personally, really have no desire to know how Stevie's depends on her music like a husband or how she talked to her famous friend last night. I don't know the woman, and never will, so it just strikes me as TMI and it begins to cloy. Others like that stuff and more power to them if they enjoy it, but I enjoy her work that doesn't explicitly refer to herself and her career and her dinners with friends about her songwriting. I can't get into them because I have a hard time relating. I like Silver Girl because it's quite vivid, but I don't enjoy it on the same level as something like Sable On Blonde because I'm not a girly-girl, I'm not lost in a hardcore world, and I don't have or look like a million bucks. It may just be me, but I listen to those songs and really don't give a fiddler's fig. Unfortunately, that's the turn her writing took and I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I think she's a master at taking incredibly personal feelings and emotions and writing them into songs everyone can relate to, but I think she lost a bit of that over the years. Doesn't mean she can't be good when she wants to be because she can still knock her material out of the park, but I think it's come to point where for every fabulous song she records, she records a stinker to go along with it. Maybe she's run out of ideas or maybe I'm just a cold prick with no empathy or emotion, who knows. But those are the reasons I, personally, don't enjoy her new material that much.

As for the rest of your post:

1. Trouble In Shangri-La was written in 1995, which is amazing to me.
2. EFO is a good song, but it's another one of her "me songs." And those are the ones I absolutely despise, normally. Thankfully, she doesn't go as overboard as she does on songs like That Made Me Stronger, which makes it listenable.
3. No one knows if all the SYW are about Lindsey, half the time I think that the two of them are just bullshit artists who continue to create the "drama" and "romance" to sell albums and make cash (that's certainly their onstage schtick). But the fact that she still writes songs (Thrown Down) about this particular guy after their relationship ended almost 30 years ago is just odd to me. If she wants to do so that's fine, but I've lost interest in those particular songs for the most part.

:wavey:
Having read through everything, I completely understand the way you feel. I think you may (or may not--you decide) have oversimplified it before. Is it crappy, sloppy, mediocre songwriting, or is it simply something you personally can't relate to?

On that note, (and I know I've said this before) I think "That Made Me Stronger" is universal. It's simply about the realization that you have to do things on your own, that you can't always rely on someone else being there to help you along. I think it also has some good lines about love gone wrong that are universal, like, "Don't call me when you're lonely" "The conversations ring in my head, I remember everything that we said, all those tears that we shed..." I don't think it's a fantastic song at all, lyrically or musically, but I think it's universal. :shrug:

And finally, it is my opinion that if all of those songs are supposed to be understood to be about Lindsey and Lindsey is in on it as well, I cannot for the life of me understand why that's just okay with everyone, especially when there are lines like "You can't have him--I do have him, most of the time." And it only gets worse after those lines. I might've taken the kids and left him at that point. If it's all a joke, then I don't see why it's funny. This is part of why I like to think of the music as being about what I want it to be about.

Hillary

[HejiraNYC]

I think if you removed the music and the vocals from the equation, and just focused on the lyrics in isolation, it appears that very little has changed between 1975-1986 and 1997-2003. I think everyone can pretty much discount the intervening years as being a bit of a creative void from which little light emerged. Today, as then, Stevie ran the gamut from maudlin to profound. "Oh, mirror in the sky, what is love," is sweetly innocent, but it is also cloyingly maudlin at the same time, just as "Just like a river, it's neverending" can induce cringes. At the same time, she was elegantly lucid, even terse then ("No speed limit; this is the fast lane") as now ("Love that starts out in the darkness doesn't do well in the light"). In a way it would be almost dull if she was as coldly precise with every song as, say, Joni Mitchell. Just like it would be rather dull if she had a 6 octave soprano voice. We love Stevie because of her despite her apparent weaknesses as a musician/songwriter. When she soars, we cheer, and when she tanks, we pull for her.

Now, when you add the music back into the equation, I think the difference becomes much more apparent. For example, I don't think Stevie has in her the capability to produce another masterpiece on a par with "Edge of Seventeen" or "Gypsy" or "Bella Donna" or even "Sleeping Angel." Her newer songs, even when produced by Lindsey, don't have the same kind of intensity and melodic urgency of those older songs. Even as wonderfully captivating and haunting as TISL is, it does not have the timeless quality of the songs she had recorded 20-some years earlier.

Even moreso than the deterioration of her vocal range, I think the apparent blandness of her newer material can be attributed to her choice of collaborators. I think she was extremely lucky to have been able to work with Tom Petty, Jimmy Iovine, et al., who really knew what to do with her material. But then she made several bad decisions- collaborating with Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby, Rick Nowels, Rupert Hine, Sheryl Crow and the most egregious of them all... MIKE "Desert Angel" CAMPBELL. I think he has been the "deadliest poison" to Stevie's songs. The only recent exception to this was John Shanks, who is, IMHO, one of Stevie's best collaborators ever.

[Johnny Stew]

As I've said, ad naseum (but, hey, if dissention gets to repeat himself, so do I! ;) ), I don't have to relate in a literal way to every single thing I listen to, in order to enjoy it.

I'm a 32 year old lower-middle-class gay man, listening to lyrics written by a 56 year old wealthy straight woman. Of course I'm not going to relate to every single thing she has to say, in a literal way... but, at the same time, it's still relatable in regards to the larger, "human-condition" angle of it.
We all have our struggles, our triumphs, our highs & lows... that's the only thing we ever need relate to. Understanding that we're all on the same journey, and that we're all basically trying to acheive the same goals (love & happiness).

A line like "she depends on her music like a husband" may not be relatable to someone's life in a direct way, but who out there cannot relate to depending on SOMETHING to fill a void in their life? Drugs, alcohol, casual sex, being a workaholic, spending endless hours on the internet... people don't tend to rely on those things, or even seek them out in a major way, unless they're trying to fill some void in their lives. Whether we wish to admit that or not.
And that void is often a lack of true intimacy or companionship of one sort or another.

And, no, I don't relate to having a famous friend tell me to write my songs by myself, but I sure as hell relate to having a friend tell me that I don't need anyone else's guidance or help -- that I'm perfectly capable of confronting life's challenges on my own.

Other songs, like "Sweet Girl" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," are pretty exclusive to Stevie's personal experiences, but, in those instances, she's offering a glimpse into her world. Like a friend (forgive me for sentimentalizing the relationship between songwriter and listener by comparing it to that of two bosom buddies) who's been around the globe... or in drug rehab... and has returned to tell you about her journeys and experiences.
So, again, you might not be able to relate to the specific experience, but the capability is certainly there to relate to the human condition.

Not that I'm offering a brand new perspective on things, but I think the difference between Stevie's earlier writing and her current writing, is that she's cut through a lot of the "veiling"... she steeped her early writing in vague (though compelling) imagery, while her current writing is more straight-forward and clear-headed overall.

I love the dignity and maturity in her current writing, and I love the youthful longing of her earlier work... quite simply, I enjoy watching this woman's journey. :)

[strandinthewind]

Ah the shippers against Diss :laugh:

I think TD is evidence that their relationship has not been over since the 70's. I think Diss. focuses too much on the sexual aspect of it. I think that aspect has reared its head ( :eek: ) intemittently over the last 20 or so years. I think that is what TD refers to - I mean she said so - she said that everytime there was a reconciliation some barrier was thrown down to stop that from seeing its fruition. So, to say the relationship as a whole has been over, dead, done with, never again, finis since the 70's is contrary to her own recent words that it comes and goes and has done so for a long time. I note this is not necess. a sexual thing - although I think it has been :cool:

[Johnny Stew]

And finally, it is my opinion that if all of those songs are supposed to be understood to be about Lindsey and Lindsey is in on it as well, I cannot for the life of me understand why that's just okay with everyone, especially when there are lines like "You can't have him--I do have him, most of the time." And it only gets worse after those lines. I might've taken the kids and left him at that point. If it's all a joke, then I don't see why it's funny. This is part of why I like to think of the music as being about what I want it to be about.

I don't think "Everybody Finds Out" is about Lindsey at all. Not even in the least.

[strandinthewind]

I don't think "Everybody Finds Out" is about Lindsey at all. Not even in the least.

I think he is in there somewhere - but I think the song is not really about him. I think it is about someone else - maybe Henley because he used to send a private jet to get her after a concert - presumably a midnight plane. But who knows :cool:

[Johnny Stew]

I think she was extremely lucky to have been able to work with Tom Petty, Jimmy Iovine, et al., who really knew what to do with her material. But then she made several bad decisions- collaborating with Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby, Rick Nowels, Rupert Hine, Sheryl Crow and the most egregious of them all... MIKE "Desert Angel" CAMPBELL. I think he has been the "deadliest poison" to Stevie's songs. The only recent exception to this was John Shanks, who is, IMHO, one of Stevie's best collaborators ever.

I'll give you Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby and Rupert Hine, but I think her collaborations with Rick Nowels, Sheryl Crow and Mike Campbell, typically rank amongst her best.

I agree though, that John Shanks is easily the best producer, overall, that she's had since Jimmy Iovine. :nod:

I also agree that a lot of that earlier "urgency" is missing from her current songs. It's still there at times... "Trouble In Shangri-La," "Fall From Grace," "Everybody Finds Out" and parts of "Illume"... but not quite enough for my tastes. A little more of that vibe would be a GREAT thing, in my book. :D

[Johnny Stew]

I think he is in there somewhere - but I think the song is not really about him. I think it is about someone else - maybe Henley because he used to send a private jet to get her after a concert - presumably a midnight plane. But who knows :cool:

Stevie has said, on more than one occasion, that as intensely as she loved Lindsey, and as much as she may wish it had worked out for the two of them, he is not the man she considers "THE love of her life."

I feel that's either Don Henley or Joe Walsh (ahh, those Eagles!).

You may be right about Henley being in the lyrics to "EFO" somewhere, but I really don't feel that Lindsey is. At all.

In fact, my feeling is that "EFO" isn't really about Stevie's experiences, but is a rare instance of her writing from someone else's perspective.

[DeadliestPoison]

Her newer songs, even when produced by Lindsey, don't have the same kind of intensity and melodic urgency of those older songs. Even as wonderfully captivating and haunting as TISL is, it does not have the timeless quality of the songs she had recorded 20-some years earlier.
That's really interesting that you say that, because I was just thinking about how, to me, "Everybody Finds Out" is a VERY urgent, straight-forward, intense song. It's almost on par with Fall From Grace in terms of intensity (interesting to note that they're both sort of "surprise" songs -- everything's fairly normal on the album and then there's a song that comes out swinging).

I have to agree, though (and even though you made the point with TISL), that EFO isn't necessarily as timeless as say Landslide or Rhiannon. EFO is going for a sort of 80s-esque vibe (which seems to be what the cool kids are doing nowadays) that I think will make it sound a little dated in 5-10 years. RAL's full of synths, and that sounds pretty dated - it's sort of the typical 80's synthy poppy album. OSOTM was lite rock personified. While it, IMO, is not as dated as RAL, you can tell it's from the late 80's/early 90's.

Everybody Finds Out is sort of in the vein of that. It's not classic Fleetwood Mac, it's not quite classic Stevie, and it's not quite 80's Stevie. It sort of stands on its own when compared to other songs that don't match the urgency and intensity of it.

Er.. what was my point? :shocked:

[strandinthewind]

Stevie has said, on more than one occasion, that as intensely as she loved Lindsey, and as much as she may wish it had worked out for the two of them, he is not the man she considers "THE love of her life."

I feel that's either Don Henley or Joe Walsh (ahh, those Eagles!).

You may be right about Henley being in the lyrics to "EFO" somewhere, but I really don't feel that Lindsey is. At all.

In fact, my feeling is that "EFO" isn't really about Stevie's experiences, but is a rare instance of her writing from someone else's perspective.

I thought that as well for while - like she was being cryptic about another's love affair. I just cannot get over that midnight plane and the apparent connection to Henley. Maybe Walsh sent her one too.

Also, I do not remember reading her ever saying LB was not one of the three great loves of her life :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Not that I'm offering a brand new perspective on things, but I think the difference between Stevie's earlier writing and her current writing, is that she's cut through a lot of the "veiling"... she steeped her early writing in vague (though compelling) imagery, while her current writing is more straight-forward and clear-headed overall.
That's the thing--I can't help but prefer the vague but compelling imagery. I want it back! But that's me.

Thanks for those last few posts, y'all (Hejira, Jason, Brian, and Greg). They have been very interesting to read.

Hillary

[skcin]

But - I think she says "you come running out in the wind with"


Ooops. Brain fart, I guess. I was reading your response thinking 'of course she says "running" silly' and then I re-read my post. Duh. :rolleyes:

[Johnny Stew]

Also, I do not remember reading her ever saying LB was not one of the three great loves of her life :shrug:

One of the three, definitely, but this seems to be another instance where Lindsey couldn't quite manage to reach #1. ;)

[amber]

Ooops. Brain fart, I guess. I was reading your response thinking 'of course she says "running" silly' and then I re-read my post. Duh. :rolleyes:
oh! you know what i thought she said on the other part? "Traffic goes, through the fog" :laugh: :laugh: so dumb... :lol:

[strandinthewind]

That's the thing--I can't help but prefer the vague but compelling imagery. I want it back! But that's me.

Thanks for those last few posts, y'all (Hejira, Jason, and Brian). They have been very interesting to read.

Hillary

You are welcome :cool:

I also think the way she uses her voice these days has alot to do with it. I do not know how to put my finger on it, but it is harsher than the way she used to use it. And - I think she can still sing that way - Gypsy Live is a good example of that - I just think she evolved.

[amber]

One of the three, definitely, but this seems to be another instance where Lindsey couldn't quite manage to reach #1. ;)
yeah, I believe he has the title of "most irritating love" though.... :laugh: :lol:

[Moony]

oh! you know what i thought she said on the other part? "Traffic goes, through the fog" :laugh: :laugh: so dumb... :lol:

L.M.A.O. :nod:

[skcin]

oh! you know what i thought she said on the other part? "Traffic goes, through the fog" :laugh: :laugh: so dumb... :lol:


NICE! Almost as good as "pick up the pizzas and go home..." :D

BTW - you don't care for the Bella Donna album but you love the song Kick It? WFT?!?! :shrug:

[amber]

NICE! Almost as good as "pick up the pizzas and go home..." :D

BTW - you don't care for the Bella Donna album but you love the song Kick It? WFT?!?! :shrug:
A lot of Bella Donna is too slow and drifty for me. Of course I love Edge, and SDMHA, and like a few others, but... :shrug:
Kick It is all yelly and passionate. Also, fairly uptempo. not drifty at all! :D

[Johnny Stew]

I also think the way she uses her voice these days has alot to do with it. I do not know how to put my finger on it, but it is harsher than the way she used to use it. And - I think she can still sing that way - Gypsy Live is a good example of that - I just think she evolved.

She sings more "full-chested" these days, as opposed to that softer, almost-whispery voice she often used in the past.

I do miss that voice, and LOVE when she brings it down off the curio shelf and shows it off ("Goodbye Baby," "Say Goodbye," "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town").
I wish she'd do that more often.

[strandinthewind]

She sings more "full-chested" these days, as opposed to that softer, almost-whispery voice she often used in the past.

I do miss that voice, and LOVE when she brings it down off the curio shelf and shows it off ("Goodbye Baby," "Say Goodbye," "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town").
I wish she'd do that more often.

That is what I was trying to say :laugh:

[DeadliestPoison]

NICE! Almost as good as "pick up the pizzas and go home..." :D
Why am I always sewing tents?

And lest we forget - One setter dog was the color of honey.

[skcin]

A lot of Bella Donna is too slow and drifty for me. Of course I love Edge, and SDMHA, and like a few others, but... :shrug:
Kick It is all yelly and passionate. Also, fairly uptempo. not drifty at all! :D

It's that crappy chorus - not yelly OR passionate, IMO.

Bella Donna the song - talk about yelly & passionate! "...and the woman may be so awestruck, and the woman may truly care, but the woman is so tired, OOOOOOOOHHH, so the woman disappears...come in out of the darkness, Bella Donna, MY SOOOUUULL!"

OK, I'm done. This is not the time nor the thread :laugh:

[amber]

Why am I always sewing tents?

And lest we forget - One setter dog was the color of honey.
which one is sewing tents?

[ontheEdgeof17]

She sings more "full-chested" these days, as opposed to that softer, almost-whispery voice she often used in the past.



It's called following the instructions of her vocal coach. :]

[amber]

It's that crappy chorus - not yelly OR passionate, IMO.

Bella Donna the song - talk about yelly & passionate! "...and the woman may be so awestruck, and the woman may truly care, but the woman is so tired, OOOOOOOOHHH, so the woman disappears...come in out of the darkness, Bella Donna, MY SOOOUUULL!"

OK, I'm done. This is not the time nor the thread :laugh:
What? Evah.

[DeadliestPoison]

which one is sewing tents?
Why am I always so intense? (Fall From Grace) ;)

Get with it, Amber! :rolleyes: :wavey:

[amber]

Why am I always so intense? (Fall From Grace) ;)

Get with it, Amber! :rolleyes: :wavey:
oooooh...with it. right. :laugh: :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

It's called following the instructions of her vocal coach. :]

Let's kidnap him and drop him off on some deserted island somewhere!

[skcin]

That's it. You get a -20.

F.


YEAH! :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Let's kidnap him and drop him off on some deserted island somewhere!

Nurse Curtis or the vocal coach :eek:

[amber]

That's it. You get a -20.

F.
?!!!! :mad: you're not the boss of my points!!!
Love Always,
H.

[amber]

YEAH! :nod:
oh, that's it. You're not the vice president of my points either, However, you're about to be the sole owner of my Can of Whoopass!!! :lol: :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

Nurse Curtis or the vocal coach :eek:

:laugh:
The vocal coach!

I'm thinking Nurse Curtis wouldn't have to be kidnapped... he'd come along willingly. ;) :xoxo:

[skcin]

oh, that's it. You're not the vice president of my points either, However, you're about to be the sole owner of my Can of Whoopass!!! :lol: :lol:


Oh, you don't want to mess with me - I can Kick It pretty hard myself! Bring it!!! :nod:

:blob1: :blob2: :blob1:

[amber]

Oh, you don't want to mess with me - I can Kick It pretty hard myself! Bring it!!! :nod:

:blob1: :blob2: :blob1:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[amber]

Yes I am. That's an extra -5.

Love Always,
F.
:xoxo:
let me show you where you can keep those "points" :) :) :) :cool:

[amber]

:eek:
Don't make me come over there young lady.
:p
well, I wouldn't want you to get "lost" :rolleyes: :laugh: You can't use mapquest, but you're in charge of my points??! yeah. yeah. that makes sense. :)
*kisses*
H.

[skcin]

well, I wouldn't want you to get "lost" :rolleyes: :laugh: You can't use mapquest, but you're in charge of my points??! yeah. yeah. that makes sense. :)
*kisses*
H.

*gasp* OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! :eek:

[GateandGarden]

I'm thinking Nurse Curtis wouldn't have to be kidnapped... he'd come along willingly. ;) :xoxo::laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[takenbythesky]

There has been this debate over what time period (earlier or later) in which Stevie's songwriting was stronger/more relatable. To me, you just have to listen carefully...Lines like "Well who knows/Have we really changed/Some say we have/Reflecting our past/Who can say/Who can say" from the early years are every bit as universal and moving to me as lines like "Goodbye baby/I hope your heart's not broken/Don't forget me/Yes I was outspoken/You were with me all the time/I'll be with you one day" from very recently. (Note: excuse me if those lines from "Goodbye Baby" were written in the past; the demo version I have heard of it does not contain that verse.)

:shrug: Stevie's different today than she was 25 years ago so shouldn't her songwriting be different, too? I can understand why people miss the mysticism and the veiled imagery of yesteryear, but there's a growth in her songwriting that I find irresistable anyway. There is not always a drop in quality with her recent work, unless I am mistaken? Aren't "Trouble In Shangri-La" and "I Miss You" as timeless as anything off the Bella Donna album?

Anyway...This was rather pointless...I want to make it clear that I can understand why most think that Miss Nicks' earlier writing is superior. What I don't understand is how people can say that the creative juices have dried up and that her stuff now is "shi**ty" or "crap." There's just too much evidence that says otherwise for me to ignore...

I've always thought that "Everybody Finds Out" was about Sheryl Crow and Lance Armstrong. :confused:

Although the production qualities of Rock A Little are outdated, the album is still excellent and has a very human quality. Just my two cents. ;)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I'm thinking Nurse Curtis wouldn't have to be kidnapped... he'd come along willingly. ;) :xoxo:


So I'm submissive. This has already been discussed in great length. ;)

[GateandGarden]

Aren't "Trouble In Shangri-La" and "I Miss You" as timeless as anything off the Bella Donna album?IMO, "I Miss You" is a shitty piece of crap. But you won't see me saying that about any other Stevie songs. (Maybe "WISYA," but I have a hard time being that hateful about that one even :laugh: ). I just really hate that one song. It's mediocrity at its best. (I love that oxymoron). Once again, that's just my opinion of that song. I don't think it's anywhere near as good as any of the material on Bella Donna, and I can't even say that I really like every single song on that album. I agree that "Trouble in Shangri-La" is just as good (though I would've preferred the same production on that one as the Bella Donna songs), but I also think TISL is an anomaly these days.

I've always thought that "Everybody Finds Out" was about Sheryl Crow and Lance Armstrong. :confused:
Hey, maybe so! I hadn't even considered that.

Anyway...This was rather pointless...No, don't say that. That was a great post. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on this subject. :)

Hillary

[DrummerDeanna]

IMO, "I Miss You" is a shitty piece of crap.

Ummm...weren't you blasting someone earlier for saying something was crappy or bad or whatever? Such a harsh statement for a song that IMO is not that bad...:shrug: again though - it's all subjective...

:edit: Oh - it was GardenStateGirlie who addressed the calling of something shitty...my bad...STILL - that's totally harsh....

[takenbythesky]

IMO, "I Miss You" is a shitty piece of crap. But you won't see me saying that about any other Stevie songs. (Maybe "WISYA," but I have a hard time being that hateful about that one even :laugh: ). I just really hate that one song. It's mediocrity at its best. (I love that oxymoron). Once again, that's just my opinion of that song. I don't think it's anywhere near as good as any of the material on Bella Donna, and I can't even say that I really like every single song on that album. I agree that "Trouble in Shangri-La" is just as good (though I would've preferred the same production on that one as the Bella Donna songs), but I also think TISL is an anomaly these days.
:lol: :lol: :lol: "Shitty piece of crap..."
I agree that "Trouble In Shangri-La" is an anomaly, much stronger than most of her recent work. I also dislike the production on the Trouble In Shangri-La album, too cold--like they stripped the material of something.

I just know that someone is waiting to pounce on the fact that I like Rock A Little and have the gumption to diss the production of Trouble In Shangri-La. It's just my taste...I could eat "Sister Honey" all up, I love it that much... :nod:

Anyway, thanks Hillary!
--Justin

[ontheEdgeof17]

Why does everyone relate everything to Bella Donna? That was 1981 for goodness sakes. It's apples and oranges. If everything sounded like Bella Donna, then we would be complaining about how all her stuff sounds the same. I give props to her that none of her albums sound like the previous one. If I wanted 6 Bella Donnas, I would have bought 6 Bella Donnas.



....and I Miss You is far from shitty. She wrote it and recorded it for a reason. It means sometime to her. That point alone makes it unshitty (is that a word? :lol: )

[Serrart]

I voted for both equally but the main difference that make me being closer to Stevie's more recent writings is the different, fresh and more courageous way to express her art.

Beware... I'm going to ramble again :D :
Codes and mysticism very often used strategically, are suggestive, but also a comfortable cover for tough topics. To speak about drugs, the complex relationship between a star and his/her fans, death, we got wonderful and powerful gold dust women, pale shadows, dragons, sisters of the moons, white winged doves. Twenty years later instead her truth is almost deafening in songs like Trouble in Shangri-La, I Miss You, Space Needle, Illume, Everybody Finds Out, Destiny Rules.... Old demos like The Tower and No Light gained a new touch of inspiration in Goodbye Baby and Planets Of the Universe Obviously a huge range of metaphors is and will ever be part of her style, but today IMO she is able to look at herself, her past, the world she is living, with a more vibrant and compelling energy. :nod:

Basically... Stevie rules :thumbsup:
Romy

[Villavic]

lyrics, equally
but melodies, earlier are better

[takenbythesky]

Codes and mysticism very often used strategically, are suggestive, but also a comfortable cover for tough topics. To speak about drugs, the complex relationship between a star and his/her fans, death, we got wonderful and powerful gold dust women, pale shadows, dragons, sisters of the moons, white winged doves. Twenty years later instead her truth is almost deafening in songs like Trouble in Shangri-La, I Miss You, Space Needle, Illume, Everybody Finds Out, Destiny Rules.... Old demos like The Tower and No Light gained a new touch of inspiration in Goodbye Baby and Planets Of the Universe Obviously a huge range of metaphors is and will ever be part of her style, but today IMO she is able to look at herself, her past, the world she is living, with a more vibrant and compelling energy. :nod:

That was most excellent, Romy! :thumbsup:

Why does everyone relate everything to Bella Donna? That was 1981 for goodness sakes. It's apples and oranges. If everything sounded like Bella Donna, then we would be complaining about how all her stuff sounds the same. I give props to her that none of her albums sound like the previous one. If I wanted 6 Bella Donnas, I would have bought 6 Bella Donnas.
^Don't really know if this was directed at me or not, but anyway...That's a great point, Curtis. All of her albums are wonderful in their own ways, and Bella Donna shouldn't be the benchmark with which to compare everything else she has done since. In fact, there shouldn't really be a benchmark at all. As you said, apples and oranges. :nod:

I said that "I Miss You" and "Trouble In Shangri-La" are just as powerful as anything off Bella Donna because Trouble is her most recent solo album while Bella Donna is her earliest solo album. I thought it kinda fit with the earlier vs. later debate. :)
--Justin

[gldstwmn]

I don't think "Everybody Finds Out" is about Lindsey at all. Not even in the least.

I've often thought that myself. It's too obvious.

[GateandGarden]

Ummm...weren't you blasting someone earlier for saying something was crappy or bad or whatever? Such a harsh statement for a song that IMO is not that bad...:shrug: again though - it's all subjective...

:edit: Oh - it was GardenStateGirlie who addressed the calling of something shitty...my bad...STILL - that's totally harsh....I wouldn't blast someone for that. I teased dissention about being harsh, but I was only teasing 'cause it's his opinion and that's cool. It's not a comment about the Goddess Stevie (I swear--I sometimes say that and I'm not sure that I'm being sarcastic :eek: ), it's just a comment about that one song. It really isn't supposed to be a reflection on her. I've written some things myself that I thought were shitty pieces of crap, and I've written things that I liked but some people thought were shitty pieces of crap. :shrug: I made a point of saying that it was just my opinion because I didn't want anyone to say "Hey, that's not fair! I love that song! You just think it's bad!" I know it's just me. I think that song's nauseatingly cheesy, but others like it a lot. I'm not saying that I think I'm the one who's right at all. It's just a personal opinion.

Sorry about how repetitive I'm being. :o

Hillary

[The Tower]

So I'm submissive. This has already been discussed in great length. ;)
:eek: No comment.

IMO, "I Miss You" is a shitty piece of crap. But you won't see me saying that about any other Stevie songs. (Maybe "WISYA," but I have a hard time being that hateful about that one even :laugh: ). I just really hate that one song.

Not even! "I Miss You" is one of Stevie's saddest songs ever. One of the best on TISL.

I don't think it's anywhere near as good as any of the material on Bella Donna, and I can't even say that I really like every single song on that album. I agree that "Trouble in Shangri-La" is just as good (though I would've preferred the same production on that one as the Bella Donna songs), but I also think TISL is an anomaly these days.

"I Miss You" is better than "How Still My Love" and "Think About It". TISL the album has got nothing on Bella Donna- nothing. If she had released it without the shitty middle ("Too Far From Texas", "Loves Changes", "It's Only Love" and "That Made Me Stronger") and stuck in "Space Needle", then it really would have been the powerhouse to be in the big leagues.

[GateandGarden]

...I could eat "Sister Honey" all up...
--JustinWell, don't let that golden hair get in your way, baby! (Okay, that was supposed to be suggestive, but I guess it just came out ridiculous. :laugh: Plus I inserted a superfluous "well"! She's really rubbing off on me!) Anyway, I do love "Sister Honey" myself. I can't explain it to people, and I really, really don't know what she was talking about, but it's really sexy to me. :nod:

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

I voted for both equally but the main difference that make me being closer to Stevie's more recent writings is the different, fresh and more courageous way to express her art.

Beware... I'm going to ramble again :D :
Codes and mysticism very often used strategically, are suggestive, but also a comfortable cover for tough topics. To speak about drugs, the complex relationship between a star and his/her fans, death, we got wonderful and powerful gold dust women, pale shadows, dragons, sisters of the moons, white winged doves. Twenty years later instead her truth is almost deafening in songs like Trouble in Shangri-La, I Miss You, Space Needle, Illume, Everybody Finds Out, Destiny Rules.... Old demos like The Tower and No Light gained a new touch of inspiration in Goodbye Baby and Planets Of the Universe Obviously a huge range of metaphors is and will ever be part of her style, but today IMO she is able to look at herself, her past, the world she is living, with a more vibrant and compelling energy. :nod:

Basically... Stevie rules :thumbsup:
RomyJust wanted to say that that was a really great post, Romy.

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

Why does everyone relate everything to Bella Donna? That was 1981 for goodness sakes. It's apples and oranges. If everything sounded like Bella Donna, then we would be complaining about how all her stuff sounds the same. I give props to her that none of her albums sound like the previous one. If I wanted 6 Bella Donnas, I would have bought 6 Bella Donnas.It's my favorite by far, so I guess I just wish that her albums would be just as great (in my eyes). I wouldn't want them to be exactly like that, but, now that you've said that, I wouldn't mind if they were quite similar. A few of the tracks that I really like on The Wild Heart sound like they could've also fit on Bella Donna to me.

....and I Miss You is far from shitty. She wrote it and recorded it for a reason. It means sometime to her. That point alone makes it unshitty (is that a word? :lol: )I don't think unshitty is a word, but I like it anyway. :thumbsup: I see what you mean, but I've got a whole binder of shitty older poetry of mine under my bed that you can read (actually, no you can't 'cause that would be ultra-embarrassing :laugh: ), and I can tell you it means a lot to me, but I still think it's shitty. Yay for run-on sentences! Come on, don't you hate "Desert Angel" with a passion? It's shitty, isn't it? And doesn't it mean a lot to Stevie? Yes, I keep bringing up Operation Desert Angel because I love you, you must understand. :D :wavey: :xoxo:

Hillary

[The Tower]

Anyway, I do love "Sister Honey" myself.

"Sister Honey" is just plain awful....

Come on, don't you hate "Desert Angel" with a passion? It's shitty, isn't it?

I really, really like "Desert Angel"- a great song!

[DeadliestPoison]

I just know that someone is waiting to pounce on the fact that I like Rock A Little <snip>. It's just my taste...I could eat "Sister Honey" all up, I love it that much... :nod:
Psh. I'll fight right beside you, Justin. I? Love me some RAL. MmMmm.

[GateandGarden]

"I Miss You" is better than "How Still My Love" and "Think About It". TISL the album has got nothing on Bella Donna- nothing. If she had released it without the shitty middle ("Too Far From Texas", "Loves Changes", "It's Only Love" and "That Made Me Stronger") and stuck in "Space Needle", then it really would have been the powerhouse to be in the big leagues.Hey now, where's the obligatory IMO? 'Cause IMO, "I Miss You" is one of the stinkers on that album and though "Love Changes," "That Made Me Stronger," and "It's Only Love" are not fabulous, they are in the stinkers category. And I think "Think About it" and "How Still My Love" are both worlds better than "I Miss You." :nod: But once again, that's just me and I'm being argumentative and obnoxious on purpose because I find it entertaining sometimes. That and I really hate "I Miss You." :laugh:

Um, am I starting to sound like dissention? I just noticed the similarities in our avatars since I changed mine, and I'm now frightened that I will come off as just as blunt and insanely opinionated. :eek:

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

"Sister Honey" is just plain awful....
Now, don't make me go fast like a jet plane and then a star stream to hit you with a fury! :laugh:

Hillary

[Johnny Stew]

So I'm submissive. This has already been discussed in great length. ;)

Hmmm... I must have completely missed that particular discussion!

Intriguing. :nod:

[amber]

It's my favorite by far, so I guess I just wish that her albums would be just as great (in my eyes). I wouldn't want them to be exactly like that, but, now that you've said that, I wouldn't mind if they were quite similar. A few of the tracks that I really like on The Wild Heart sound like they could've also fit on Bella Donna to me.



Hillary
Least favorite. :wavey: but contains two of my most favorite songs.

[amber]

Hmmm... I must have completely missed that particular discussion!

Intriguing. :nod:
you didn't hear? :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

[amber]

Rock A Little [/I] and have the gumption to diss the production of Trouble In Shangri-La. It's just my taste...I could eat "Sister Honey" all up, I love it that much... :nod:

Anyway, thanks Hillary!
--Justin
Are you kidding? RAL doesn't rock a little, it rocks a lot. (sorry :laugh: ) I love it like a sister, honey. :wavey:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Come on, don't you hate "Desert Angel" with a passion? It's shitty, isn't it? And doesn't it mean a lot to Stevie? Yes, I keep bringing up Operation Desert Angel because I love you, you must understand. :D :wavey: :xoxo:


Do I hate it? Yes. Is it shit? Nah. I'd rather listent to DA than listen to shit. Listening to shit would be very boring.

[amber]

Do I hate it? Yes. Is it shit? Nah. I'd rather listent to DA than listen to shit. Listening to shit would be very boring.
:laugh:
I dunno, though, dude. That song is about as close to shit as a song can be without being actual shit, I would say. :lol:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Hmmm... I must have completely missed that particular discussion!

Intriguing. :nod:


:lol: I'm sure Amber would be happy to tell ya all about it. (in private, of course). :shocked:

[Johnny Stew]

:lol: I'm sure Amber would be happy to tell ya all about it. (in private, of course). :shocked:

I'd rather hear all about it from you personally, Curtis, dear. ;) :xoxo:

[ontheEdgeof17]

:laugh:
I dunno, though, dude. That song is about as close to shit as a song can be without being actual shit, I would say. :lol:


I know. She's my gurl! I can't say anything she does is shit......but close, it is! :)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I'd rather hear all about it from you personally, Curtis, dear. ;) :xoxo:

:sings the lyrics to Johnny Stew loudly:


What? I can't hear you.

[amber]

I'd rather hear all about it from you personally, Curtis, dear. ;) :xoxo:
yeah, Stew doesn't talk to girls, Curtis. I mean, why would he? :shrug: Anyways... :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

:sings the lyrics to Johnny Stew loudly:

What? I can't hear you.

Curtis, everybody's talkin' 'bout the amazing Johnny Stew... why aren't you? ;) :laugh:

Nice dodge, by the way... but "you can't get out of this one." :xoxo:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Nice dodge, by the way... but "you can't get out of this one." :xoxo:

Let's just say it involved Amber asking me questions about me and what I do......

Ta Da!

[Johnny Stew]

yeah, Stew doesn't talk to girls, Curtis. I mean, why would he? :shrug: Anyways... :wavey:

:p
I talk to girls all the time... even flirt with some of them! ;)
But I want Curtis to tell me, not someone else. Otherwise, it's just second hand news! :laugh:

[takenbythesky]

I'd rather listent to DA than listen to shit. Listening to shit would be very boring.
:D:lol::thumbsup: I don't know why...That was the funniest thing I've heard today.

Thanks to GateAndGarden, DeadliestPoison, and Amber for their Rock A Little Love and "Sister Honey" Love.

And, lastly...Curtis and Johnny Stew: Your little exchange reminds of a little song called "Tell Me All The Things You Do." ;)
--Justin

[Johnny Stew]

Let's just say it involved Amber asking me questions about me and what I do......

Ta Da!

Hmm... and what is it that you do do? ;)

I have a PM box you know. ;) :laugh:

[amber]

:p
I talk to girls all the time... even flirt with some of them! ;)
But I want Curtis to tell me, not someone else. Otherwise, it's just second hand news! :laugh:
yeahrightwhateveranyways... :rolleyes:
so, curtis answered you, it looks like.
:D

[Johnny Stew]

And, lastly...Curtis and Johnny Stew: Your little exchange reminds of a little song called "Tell Me All The Things You Do." ;)

*hehehe* Cute, Justin. :xoxo:

I thought it was reminiscent of "(Let's Give 'Em) Something To Talk About"! :laugh:

[amber]

Let's just say it involved Amber asking me questions about me and what I do......

Ta Da!
"Ta Da"???
:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Hmm... and what is it that you do do? ;)

I have a PM box you know. ;) :laugh:

It's embarassing...in PM or in here.


Convo over. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

yeahrightwhateveranyways... :rolleyes:

Aw, come on, Amber... don't be jealous. You know I love ya.
But even though we fooled around on prom night, we can never be together... I like other boys. :xoxo:

[amber]

Aw, come on, Amber... don't be jealous. You know I love ya.
But even though we fooled around on prom night, we can never be together... I like other boys. :xoxo:
pfffffttt! :lol: :lol: If i'd been drinking soda (which i wanted to be) I would've spit it right then...
um, by the way, us switching clothes doesn't constitute fooling around... :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

It's embarassing...in PM or in here.

Convo over. :laugh:

Ve haf vays uhv making you tawk. :nod:

[ontheEdgeof17]

:D:lol::thumbsup: I don't know why...That was the funniest thing I've heard today.

Thanks! It was corny, but good. :xoxo:

Thanks to GateAndGarden, DeadliestPoison, and Amber for their Rock A Little Love and "Sister Honey" Love.

As do I, but that's a gimme.

And, lastly...Curtis and Johnny Stew: Your little exchange reminds of a little song called "Tell Me All The Things You Do." ;)
--Justin

EFO rings a bell, too.

[Johnny Stew]

um, by the way, us switching clothes doesn't constitute fooling around... :laugh:

I wonder if I was the first person to ever go commando in a prom dress. ;)

I still remember skipping around the gymnasium, singing, "I feel pretty, oh, so pretty....!"

Fun night! Even if the captain of the football team never did call me again.
(The vice-principal did though!!! :D )

[dissention]

Having read through everything, I completely understand the way you feel. I think you may (or may not--you decide) have oversimplified it before. Is it crappy, sloppy, mediocre songwriting, or is it simply something you personally can't relate to?

I think it's lazy songwriting.

On that note, (and I know I've said this before) I think "That Made Me Stronger" is universal. It's simply about the realization that you have to do things on your own, that you can't always rely on someone else being there to help you along. I think it also has some good lines about love gone wrong that are universal, like, "Don't call me when you're lonely" "The conversations ring in my head, I remember everything that we said, all those tears that we shed..." I don't think it's a fantastic song at all, lyrically or musically, but I think it's universal. :shrug:

When thought of in those terms, it certainly is. But the "me songs" turn me off to begin with and I really could care less in the end. I think it's self-indulgent for a someone famous to sing about being famous as if other people care, just as I think that it's self-indulgent and boring for a writer to write about writing (or lack thereof). It just does not appeal to me. Would any of us pay a dry cleaner to tell us about the woes of using certain solvents and what they do when they can't get a stain out? I think not. :laugh:

[amber]

I wonder if I was the first person to ever go commando in a prom dress. ;)

I still remember skipping around the gymnasium, singing, "I feel pretty, oh, so pretty....!"

Fun night! Even if the captain of the football team never did call me again.
(The vice-principal did though!!! :D )
Oh Sh**!!!! The Vice principal called me, too!!! :shocked: :laugh:
didn't i look hot in the Tuxedo, though? ;)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I

Fun night! Even if the captain of the football team never did call me again.


That was my dad, fool. :shrug:

[amber]

That was my dad, fool. :shrug:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[dissention]

Well, don't let that golden hair get in your way, baby!

I just spittled on my keyboard. :eek:

[dissention]

Um, am I starting to sound like dissention? I just noticed the similarities in our avatars since I changed mine, and I'm now frightened that I will come off as just as blunt and insanely opinionated. :eek:

Your claws are coming out today, eh?

[Johnny Stew]

I think it's self-indulgent for a someone famous to sing about being famous as if other people care, just as I think that it's self-indulgent and boring for a writer to write about writing (or lack thereof). It just does not appeal to me.

By that token, is it not self-indulgent for us to expect anyone to ever care about anything we have to say?

Who other than our friends truly cares if we've had our heart broken, or if we're happily in love, etc.? And, yet, people write about it all the time.

Even if a songwriter or poet writes about something seemingly dispersonal, like politics, they're still assuming that someone other than themselves gives a flying fig about what they think in regards to that topic.

As I've said, Stevie might write about "being famous" at times on the surface, but, at the core, she's still writing about universal themes... love, loss, loneliness, self-discovery, disillusionment, hope, and, essentially, the pursuit of happiness and fulfillment.

[dissention]

By that token, is it not self-indulgent for us to expect anyone to ever care about anything we have to say?

Who other than our friends truly cares if we've had our heart broken, or if we're happily in love, etc.? And, yet, people write about it all the time.

Even if a songwriter or poet writes about something seemingly dispersonal, like politics, they're still assuming that someone other than themselves gives a flying fig about what they think in regards to that topic.

As I've said, Stevie might write about "being famous" at times on the surface, but, at the core, she's still writing about universal themes... love, loss, loneliness, self-discovery, disillusionment, hope, and, essentially, the pursuit of happiness and fulfillment.

How many straws did you grasp that time, Le Stew? :laugh:

And you still did not answer my question. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

That was my dad, fool. :shrug:

Excuse me, Hot Shot, but I am not THAT old. Hmmpf. :mad:

:p

[amber]

How many straws did you grasp that time, Le Stew? :laugh:

And you still did not answer my question. ;)
just enought to plug your pie hole with.... :lol: :wavey:

[Serrart]

Would any of us pay a dry cleaner to tell us about the woes of using certain solvents and what they do when they can't get a stain out? I think not. :laugh:

*Raises hand* I would, and I'd ask a lot of questions too, we all have our stains to cope with. ;)

Romy

[dissention]

just enought to plug your pie hole with.... :lol: :wavey:

I didn't know it was possible to manufacture enough of them. :cool:

[amber]

I didn't know it was possible to manufacture enough of them. :cool:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh:
"ATTACK OF THE 50 FOOT PIE HOLE!!!"

[dissention]

*Raises hand* I would

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. ;)

[dissention]

:laugh: :lol: :laugh:
"ATTACK OF THE 50 FOOT PIE HOLE!!!"

Sounds like a dirty movie I once saw... :wavey:

[amber]

Sounds like a dirty movie I once saw... :wavey:
:laugh: Oh yeah! Wasn't Jake Weber in that one?? ;) :D :wavey:

[ontheEdgeof17]

:laugh: :lol: :laugh:
"ATTACK OF THE 50 FOOT PIE HOLE!!!"


AMBER! You know about our mental images problem! Stop! :lol:

[amber]

AMBER! You know about our mental images problem! Stop! :lol:
:lol:
You? Love it, and want some more of it! :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

How many straws did you grasp that time, Le Stew? :laugh:

Well, I see you didn't have a strong counter-argument. Ha. ;) :xoxo:


And you still did not answer my question. ;)

Which question? The one about the dry cleaner?
Well, if he managed to write about it in a compelling and illuminating way, then I'm sure I would want to hear it.

My point remains that it's all, fundamentally, self-indulgent.
It's a pretty big assumption to think that someone out there will be even remotely interested in hearing our thoughts and insights, or about our experiences.

[dissention]

:laugh: Oh yeah! Wasn't Jake Weber in that one?? ;) :D :wavey:

*fans self*

I wish, my dear, I wish. I would have volunteered to costar for free in that flick. :laugh:

[Serrart]

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. ;)

Hey, I'm an Iranian and Taiwanese films lover, I'm used to watch people doing and talking of their jobs for hours. :nod: You should try, it could be surprising.

Romy

[amber]

Would now be a bad time to mention my porn star name was Ritzy Rugmuncher? :confused:

Sorry if that causes a "mental image problem," Curtis.
no, this is a great time for that! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! :lol: :lol: :laugh:

[amber]

*fans self*

I wish, my dear, I wish. I would have volunteered to costar for free in that flick. :laugh:
hmmmm...and i think i'll volunteer to watch it for free.... :wavey:

[dissention]

hmmmm...and i think i'll volunteer to watch it for free.... :wavey:

Yeah, but who knows if I'll have any screentime. I might just be Mr. Jake's personal fluffer. :eek: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, but who knows if I'll have any screentime. I might just be Mr. Jake's personal fluffer. :eek: :laugh:

KKKKRRRUUUHHCCCHHCHCHCHHCHCHCHCHHCHCHC

Attention please - would Mr. Webber's fluffer

PLEASE REPORT TO TRAILER NINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mick Jagger lips indeed :eek: :p :cool: :] :woohoo:

[amber]

Yeah, but who knows if I'll have any screentime. I might just be Mr. Jake's personal fluffer. :eek: :laugh:
it's nice work if you can get it.... :cool:

[dissention]

it's nice work if you can get it.... :cool:

I wouldn't turn it down, that's for sure. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Your claws are coming out today, eh?
:xoxo: :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

Would now be a bad time to mention my porn star name was Ritzy Rugmuncher? :confused:

Sorry if that causes a "mental image problem," Curtis.Thank you for that! :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[glitter_fades]

I think it's lazy songwriting.



When thought of in those terms, it certainly is. But the "me songs" turn me off to begin with and I really could care less in the end. I think it's self-indulgent for a someone famous to sing about being famous as if other people care, just as I think that it's self-indulgent and boring for a writer to write about writing (or lack thereof). It just does not appeal to me. Would any of us pay a dry cleaner to tell us about the woes of using certain solvents and what they do when they can't get a stain out? I think not. :laugh:

The difference today is the lack of strong imagery used to describe vague subject matter. She used poetic imagery more effectively in the early days. Today she thinks using a word in the wrong tense or making a mockery of a well known metaphor is somehow poetic if she likes the way it sounds. Rubbish. Today her songs simply sound more self-indulgent because she's lost the ability to cloak the words in vivid imagery that's as universally appealing as some of her earlier work. Some of her words still evoke stong images for fans, but these days you almost have to already be a fan to appreciate Stevie's work. She aint winning over too many new fans with what she's writing now. Let's face it. She needs to find ways to make her words sound less about herself and more about the unversal human condition. Only fans think of her songs that way anymore. She has lead an incredibly interesting life but she seems to have little or nothing important to say about life's lessons, as far as I can tell. If only she could tell me something I could learn from other than what an ordeal it is to be Stevie. :shrug:

.

[Johnny Stew]

If only she could tell me something I could learn from other than what an ordeal it is to be Stevie. :shrug:

See, I'm not looking to learn anything meaningful about life from Stevie Nicks... I'm just looking to learn about this particular woman's ups and downs.

If we want to learn something, it has to be through our own life experiences. At least that's how I feel about it. :shrug: :xoxo:

And, really, aside from about a half dozen songs directly mentioning famous friends or being famous herself, her songs are largely about unrequited love/searching for love. And I haven't met a person yet who can't relate to that.

[glitter_fades]

See, I'm not looking to learn anything meaningful about life from Stevie Nicks... I'm just looking to learn about this particular woman's ups and downs.

I guess I've had enough of this particular woman's ups and downs. :sorry:

I expect a little more from someone who considers herself a poet. :wavey:

I also think she's capable of more but she's too used to writing the way she does now.

Who's going to tell her otherwise? LB? :eek:

[Johnny Stew]

I guess I've had enough of this particular woman's ups and downs. :sorry:

Fair enough, but there are plenty of other songwriters out there with different perspectives, if you wish to explore new territory.
Stevie is always going to be Stevie.
But then I guess the old cliché is true... familiarity breeds contempt. :nod:


I expect a little more from someone who considers herself a poet. :wavey:

An occasional mixed metaphor or grammatical error... are those things really that heinous or "lazy"? In mainstream pop/rock music?


I also think she's capable of more but she's too used to writing the way she does now.

I still think a lot of people set themselves up for a fall by wishing every single new song will be as "brilliant" as whatever they consider to be Stevie's best song(s), and are then disappointed when it doesn't live up to their inherently unreasonable expectations.

At any rate, I'm once again getting involved in a discussion I've already wasted too much time debating. :sorry:

[glitter_fades]

I still think a lot of people set themselves up for a fall by wishing every single new song will be as "brilliant" as whatever they consider to be Stevie's best song(s), and are then disappointed when it doesn't live up to their inherently unreasonable expectations.



I'd settle for intelligible never mind brilliant. I'm not sure she's done brilliant yet. I said this in another thread but it bears repeating. If Stevie wants to be more literal in her songs that's fine but in that case she has to stick to literacy rules more than if she's writing with imagery or figuratively. I also don't think my expectations are unreasonable toward someone who prides herself on being a songwriter not a pop tart. Stevie's career was founded on songwriting but her celebrity image has far outstripped her songwriting abilities, I'd say since the early 1980's. A lot of the songs she's done since then are throw backs to the 70's. Stevie's always gone to the vault rather than pen new and relevant works. That's just Stevie, I suppose. The last good songs she wrote imo were "Nightbird" and "Gypsy" (which was nowhere until Lindsey worked on the music. The words have great imagery but the music makes the images come to life.) Great songs those...even if you don't know exactly what she's talking about...you can see images in your mind and form any ideas you want. Those songs work for me and for a lot of people who aren't necessarily Stevie fans. Most everything she's done since then has been one long diatribe in the ongoing saga of the ordeal of being Stevie. I'm bored with it.

[ryan8472]

I like the new stuff, but I like the older songs more. They're so...mystical and funky, and SO Stevie.

[Kelly]

I chose both equally. Stevie has grown and changed as we all do over time and that is reflected in her writing style. The day I get bored with her songs or find her writing to be crappy, I will find a new singer/songwriter to start listening to. Some of the songs on TISL and SYW are at the top of my favorite list, like the song TISL, Planets, EFO, Illume, Goodbye Baby...

As far as EFO and Lance Armstrong and Sheryl Crow..I cannot see how that could be possible. Stevie wrote EFO sometime around 1999 (well it was copywritten then) and that was long before Sheryl and Lance had even met. Lance was married and I am not even sure he had had his twin daughters at that point. Lance was divorced for quite awhile before he even met Sheryl so it is not like he was involved in this big love triangle with Kristen and Sheryl. I do not have a clue what or whom Stevie penned EFO about but I can't see how it could be Lance and Sheryl. It is also sort of hard for me to believe that Stevie has suddenly started writing in the first person about someone else's love experiences. The song does rock and I adore the vocal! The intensity in which she sings also give me goosebumps. The one version of the song in which LB's vocals are more pronounced is fantastic as you can hear his intensity too. He rarely gets that into her songs vocally anymore, ala Frozen Love, but in EFO and the Wall of Sound version of TD, he certainly expresses more passion than usual. (for Lindsey that is.)

[GateandGarden]

As far as EFO and Lance Armstrong and Sheryl Crow..I cannot see how that could be possible. Stevie wrote EFO sometime around 1999 (well it was copywritten then) and that was long before Sheryl and Lance had even met. Lance was married and I am not even sure he had had his twin daughters at that point. Lance was divorced for quite awhile before he even met Sheryl so it is not like he was involved in this big love triangle with Kristen and Sheryl.Oh, okay. I thought about that later and realized that I wasn't sure when their relationship began. So, that theory is out the window now. I suppose it also sounds quite personal to be about other people.

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

I also think she's capable of more but she's too used to writing the way she does now.

Who's going to tell her otherwise? LB? :eek:I'd back him up if he wanted to broach the subject. :wavey: :laugh:

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

I like the new stuff, but I like the older songs more. They're so...mystical and funky, and SO Stevie.It's funny how you say that--like the newer ones aren't really Stevie as much as the older ones are. I know everyone begs to differ.

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

Well, this is quite controversial, but no one thinks it was the drugs that allowed her to write the way she did before, and her songwriting has evolved into something different and in some ways more personal and definitely more lucid since she's been clean? No one wants to credit the illegal substances with those timeless lyrics? I can't blame y'all if you don't want to because I feel like it takes something away from Stevie, or perhaps a lot away from Stevie, but I can't help but think that this may be a drug thing, at least partially.

Hillary

[Serrart]

I'd settle for intelligible never mind brilliant. I'm not sure she's done brilliant yet. I said this in another thread but it bears repeating. If Stevie wants to be more literal in her songs that's fine but in that case she has to stick to literacy rules more than if she's writing with imagery or figuratively. I also don't think my expectations are unreasonable toward someone who prides herself on being a songwriter not a pop tart.

Why should she? Rules in art aren't set in stone, or we would never have had abstractism, cubism, dadaism, futurism, pop art, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Tchaikovsky Grotowsky, Brecht, Neorealism, Nouvelle Vague, Dogma 95, jazz, rap... Artists write those rules for themselves, IMO. Certainly there are common standards that are learnt and used as a basis but a creative personality tends to reinvent them continously. What I don't understand it's the "old songs are Stevie and new aren't". It's like saying that her new material doesn't correspond anymore to the preconceived image of Stevie reflected by her past works. Well, it means she's alive, right? We change everyday, every moment, why shouldn't she?
Certainly fans choose to follow an artist or not, love one period more than another, but to chain them to their past makes me think to a certain portrait in a Wilde's novel.

Romy

[dissention]

I'd back him up if he wanted to broach the subject. :wavey: :laugh:

Hillary


I'd gladly offer my opinions to Miss Nicks, no back up needed. :wavey:

[estranged4life]

for earlier...

Need I say more??? :thumbsup:

Brian "<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/music3/rhiannon/Fucktard.gif">" j.

[dissention]

The difference today is the lack of strong imagery used to describe vague subject matter. She used poetic imagery more effectively in the early days. Today she thinks using a word in the wrong tense or making a mockery of a well known metaphor is somehow poetic if she likes the way it sounds. Rubbish. Today her songs simply sound more self-indulgent because she's lost the ability to cloak the words in vivid imagery that's as universally appealing as some of her earlier work. Some of her words still evoke stong images for fans, but these days you almost have to already be a fan to appreciate Stevie's work. She aint winning over too many new fans with what she's writing now. Let's face it. She needs to find ways to make her words sound less about herself and more about the unversal human condition. Only fans think of her songs that way anymore. She has lead an incredibly interesting life but she seems to have little or nothing important to say about life's lessons, as far as I can tell. If only she could tell me something I could learn from other than what an ordeal it is to be Stevie. :shrug:

.

I think it also has to do with what I, personally, see as Stevie becoming artistically stagnant. It seems like she just stopped growing musically and just retreads the same waters time after time. Back in the day, things were considerably different (musically, artistically, and emotionally) from album to album and I've felt that since around the early nineties to now, everything has really been the same thing over and over.

I've always gravitated more towards artists that constantly change the things they do, as if they're on an artistic quest. That's why I adore Lindsey Buckingham, David Bowie, and Debbie Harry. They never settle for just doing something adequately and they never stop growing when it comes to their art. There's a difference between growing and changing emotionally and growing and exploring your art and the means in which you express those changes and emotions.

Pop in something from Lindsey that's twenty years old and then pop in something recent and there are stunning differences. He's always been innovative, even when it comes to standard fluff; that's what makes him a genius. Bowie has done so much different stuff that it boggles the mind, same with Debbie Harry. Bowie went from concept albums like Ziggy Stardust to truly experimental albums like Low and Lodger, not to mention countless other incarnations like his plastic soul period. Debbie went from punk to pop to urban chic to avant garde jazz to standards to improvisation, etc. Did they change what made people love them? No, they simply grew as artists. They still possessed the qualities that gave them their fans and they kept them.

For Stevie, I guess she's pleased with her current artistic path. But changing things artistically won't make her lose fans. She did something truly different when it came to Illume, like it or love it. Would any of us desert her and sell her albums to a used music store if she decided to record an entire album in that vein? Would she suffer if she decided to record a jazz album? I doubt it. The voice would still be there, as would the lyrics. It's just a matter of exploring your mind for different ideas. I don't think any of us could sit here and say that this is the best Stevie could do artistically. I've always thought that she'd love to do some truly odd stuff like Lindsey, but she's afraid to do so.

[Serrart]

For Stevie, I guess she's pleased with her current artistic path. But changing things artistically won't make her lose fans. She did something truly different when it came to Illume, like it or love it. Would any of us desert her and sell her albums to a used music store if she decided to record an entire album in that vein? Would she suffer if she decided to record a jazz album? I doubt it. The voice would still be there, as would the lyrics. It's just a matter of exploring your mind for different ideas. I don't think any of us could sit here and say that this is the best Stevie could do artistically. I've always thought that she'd love to do some truly odd stuff like Lindsey, but she's afraid to do so.

I'd also love a jazz album, or an album in the vein of Illume, or a coutry one produced by Jack White, or an album with Stevie featuring some monks in a collection of Gregorian choirs... anything new! :D

Jokes aside, I think changes are always positive for every artist, and Stevie could take so many ways right now.

Romy

[dissention]

I'd also love a jazz album, or an album in the vein of Illume, or a coutry one produced by Jack White, or an album with Stevie featuring some monks in a collection of Gregorian choirs... anything new! :D

Jokes aside, I think changes are always positive for every artist, and Stevie could take so many ways right now.

Romy

I'd actually love to hear her work with Jack White. :laugh: It would certainly be interesting, that's for sure.

[Hawkeye]

I think both Smile At You and Illume were very experimental and new for Stevie. And I'd even call Everybody Finds Out different. Stevie tried a lot of new things on Say You Will.

[dissention]

I think both Smile At You and Illume were very experimental and new for Stevie. And I'd even call Everybody Finds Out different. Stevie tried a lot of new things on Say You Will.

Illume was quite different for Stevie, I've said that and you'll get no arguments from me about it. I don't see Smile At You as being "experimental," though, not in the least. As for Everybody Finds Out, as much as I like it, it screams of Rock A Little (and it doesn't help that Rick Nowels co-wrote it). Adventurous and experimental it ain't, IMO.

[GateandGarden]

I think "Smile at You" is experimental in that, to my knowledge, she had never recorded a song with lyrics so blatantly sexual and vivid as "my walls are flaming." I mean, with all of her other sexual lyrics, she can probably say, "Oh, but what I really meant was such and such." What's she gonna say for this? What else in the world can one possibly mean by "my walls are flaming"??? So, it's experimental because of that. :laugh:

I was watching my Destiny Rules DVD today and one of Mick's comments made me think of this thread. He said that her material for SYW was the best material she had written in years, and probably the best since the first couple of albums she did with FM. I was thinking, First couple of albums? What?!?

Can I say:

"Storms" and "Gyspy"?

Just to name a couple

[GypsySorcerer]

Overall, I say earlier. Trouble in Shangri-La had some gems (the title track in particular) but some of the rest I've been lukewarm to. I can't stand "Illume". :sorry: And I also not that crazy about "Everybody Finds Out." That "you can't have him" stuff sounds like things I said on the playground in 6th grade.

[sparky]

I expect a little more from someone who considers herself a poet. :wavey:

I also think she's capable of more but she's too used to writing the way she does now.

Who's going to tell her otherwise? LB? :eek:


Oh My God. Did I write this and channel it to you, GF ?
:wavey:

[GateandGarden]

Overall, I say earlier. Trouble in Shangri-La had some gems (the title track in particular) but some of the rest I've been lukewarm to. I can't stand "Illume". :sorry: And I also not that crazy about "Everybody Finds Out." That "you can't have him" stuff sounds like things I said on the playground in 6th grade.I agree. I've tried to get into "Illume," but it just doesn't do it for me. I don't dislike it, but I never feel like listening to it all the way through. It seems far too rambling, and this is coming from a big "Sara" fan. I'm a bit fond of "Everybody Finds Out" because I just think it's fun, but those lyrics tend to annoy me. They're like playground talk--you said it.

Hillary

[DeadliestPoison]

I think "Smile at You" is experimental in that, to my knowledge, she had never recorded a song with lyrics so blatantly sexual and vivid as "my walls are flaming." I mean, with all of her other sexual lyrics, she can probably say, "Oh, but what I really meant was such and such." What's she gonna say for this? What else in the world can one possibly mean by "my walls are flaming"??? So, it's experimental because of that. :laugh:
I didn't even think about how it could be conceived as a sexual line until someone brought it up a year or so ago on a mailing list or something. I had always figured that she was so pissed the walls in the room were on fire or something. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

I didn't even think about how it could be conceived as a sexual line until someone brought it up a year or so ago on a mailing list or something. I had always figured that she was so pissed the walls in the room were on fire or something. :shrug:I.........I'm just not seeing how she could have meant the walls in a room. I'm thinking either you're too pure or I'm too dirty. I don't see how I could possibly be too dirty. But then again, since I have to live vicariously through other people's sexual experiencs, perhaps I do have a bit of a dirty mind. :laugh: File that under "too much information." I think this would make a good pole...er...poll. :angel:

Hillary

[dissention]

I.........I'm just not seeing how she could have meant the walls in a room. I'm thinking either you're too pure or I'm too dirty. I don't see how I could possibly be too dirty. But then again, since I have to live vicariously through other people's sexual experiencs, perhaps I do have a bit of a dirty mind. :laugh: File that under "too much information." I think this would make a good pole...er...poll. :angel:

Hillary

This is the woman who was upset that she had to sing the word "bitch," Hillary. :xoxo: I find it incredibly hard to believe that "my walls are flaming" references her vaginal walls. If it is, get the girl some Vagisil because that line has always grossed my ass out big time. It sounds more like a personal problem than anything else, regardless of it's actual intent or meaning.

[GateandGarden]

This is the woman who was upset that she had to sing the word "bitch," Hillary. :xoxo: I find it incredibly hard to believe that "my walls are flaming" references her vaginal walls. If it is, get the girl some Vagisil because that line has always grossed my ass out big time. It sounds more like a personal problem than anything else, regardless of it's actual intent or meaning.You know, you've got a good point there. I didn't even realize she had a problem with singing "bitch." Since she had a problem with that, I suppose she'd be horrified at what we think of the flaming line. And you're right about the personal problem...yeast infections come to mind. :laugh:

Hillary

[Johnny Stew]

And I also not that crazy about "Everybody Finds Out." That "you can't have him" stuff sounds like things I said on the playground in 6th grade.

See, I love it. And I think it works to maximum effect in the song, because it's full of attitude, and is total chick-fight posturing: "You can't have him! He's mine!"

[sparky]

See, I love it. And I think it works to maximum effect in the song, because it's full of attitude, and is total chick-fight posturing: "You can't have him! He's mine!"

Which is an interesting concept - and totally elementary school playground. "The object is MINE." The object really has no say in the matter. It is just an inert item being fought over. I've thought of some guys that way before too. :shocked:

Although, let's be clear - Sparky has never fought over one before.

[dissention]

Which is an interesting concept - and totally elementary school playground. "The object is MINE." The object really has no say in the matter. It is just an inert item being fought over. I've thought of some guys that way before too. :shocked:

Although, let's be clear - Sparky has never fought over one before.

:lol:

Give Stevie a break, man. It's a nice change of pace for her to be singing about a f*ckbuddy. Now we know not only does she shit like the rest of us, she's got the same sexual urges. :blob2:

[Johnny Stew]

Which is an interesting concept - and totally elementary school playground. "The object is MINE." The object really has no say in the matter. It is just an inert item being fought over.

Exactly. :nod: No (or extremely little) regard is being given to what the MAN wants... it's all about these two women wrestling over who he "belongs" to. A female version of a territorial pissing.


I've thought of some guys that way before too. :shocked:

Although, let's be clear - Sparky has never fought over one before.

Attaboy, Sparky. I'm the same way. The jealousy game never works on me, because I'm not about to fight over someone. If a guy can't see that I'm the better choice, then it's his loss. ;) :laugh: