Early Mac Memories

[windjammer]

As a fairly new (but rather elderly) member of the Fleetwood Mac and Peter Green Forums I thought that you folks might be interested in my early memories of Fleetwood Mac. In 1967 and 1968 I used to frequent the Thames Hotel in Windsor, where every Wednesday night in the side room the blues bands of the day used to play. The likes of John Mayall (Mick Taylor era), Savoy Brown, Ten Years After, Chicken Shack etc were regulars. Not forgetting the mighty Mac, these were the days of the 4 piece, Greeny, Mick Fleetwood, John McVie and Jeremy Spencer, before Danny Kirwan joined. Here are the notes from my diary of that era.
Jan 31st 1968
"In the evening I went to the Thames Hotel where I saw Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. They were good, hard well played blues. Also 4 rock numbers with McVie raving all over the floor, kneeling, crawling etc. They fooled around between numbers and occasionally threatened to do Cream, Hendrix or Mayall numbers. They would start and then Fleetwood would wreck his drums. When they played properly they played well, little Jeremy Spencer good on slide guitar and Peter Green good on lead. Quite a few 4 letter words as well"
Feb 28th 1968
"Saw Peter Green and co at the Thames Hotel again.Really superb, brilliant, it really got thru' to me. No fooling around or rock numbers as on Jan 31st, no obscenities either. Peter Green did some slow moving blues with brilliant sympathetic guitar work from him. Jeremy Spencer great on slide. Slower numbers all round, best gig I've seen".
March 27th 1968
"Fleetwood Mac again, the group were superb as usual. Jeremy Spencer was supposed to have been sick before the gig so he wasn't feeling too grand but you wouldn't have known it, he still managed 1 or 2 dubious comments! Jeremy and Peter great guitarists while John and Mick provide a good solid backing".
This sums up the Mac of those days, great music and a very ribald sense of humour, great for a 19 year old with a few pints inside him!
As regards the present Peter Green situation, well like most other people I think it's a great shame. I saw the Splinter Group in Reading a few years back, when they toured with John Mayall, while it was great to see Peter back on stage after all his troubles, the group did seem to be more of the Nigel Watson Group. We all know that Nigel was a great help to Peter but eventually that help seemed to suffocate him. The albums slowly went downhill, the excellent "Destiny Road" eventually ending with the mediocre "Cold 100". Hopefully Peter can find someone to encourage him and help with HIS music. Certainly Mick has always shown an ongoing interest in Peter, maybe he and John in the "Mac-less"years (of which there have been many) could help to get him back on track. I was playing some of Peter's late 70s and early 80s stuff today and contrary to some reviews there is some good stuff on there. While he can never be the Green God of the Mac days, a mixture of Mac classics and his later solo stuff would let us see the TRUE Greeny. Remember how Lindsey featured "Oh Well" in the live set for several years and Rick Vito acknowledged his Green influence.

[amber]

Did you post this again? I replied to it before, but now i don't see that... :confused:

[sharksfan2000]

Did you post this again? I replied to it before, but now i don't see that... :confused:
The original post was on the Peter Green forum (that's where your reply is). I suggested that windjammer post it on this forum as well since it's very relevant and I thought that more people might see it here.

[amber]

The original post was on the Peter Green forum (that's where your reply is). I suggested that windjammer post it on this forum as well since it's very relevant and I thought that more people might see it here.
Sweet. It really is quite a thing that he has diary entries about those nights, isn't it? Incredible! :)

[SuzeQuze]

A few things really stand out for me here. First, windjammer, thank you for your post. It's wonderful to read a fan review from "back in the day". The blues years of FM are not so well known here in the states, and I honestly am only familiar with what showed up on the box set, which I really enjoyed.

Back to my few things. I cannot IMAGINE John on his knees and all over as you described :laugh: . He is the most low-key player I have ever seen! Perhaps he embarrassed himself enough. Also, Mick destroying his drums? :shocked: It's just weird. I love Lindsey's treatment of Oh Well and Peter's song is genious. It is hard to see him as you did because he has been a "lunatic" all of my life and completely out of the "spotlight" as I have known it.

Your post is fascinating windjammer, again, thank you so much for sharing it.

[windjammer]

The pre-Rumours days of the Mac, and indeed the pre "Greeny goes weird and gives his money away" era are easily forgotten, especially by you American friends who never had the pleasure of seeing the early Mac. Booze and crude humour featured with Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac as much as their great music. John McVie was well known for his liking for the demon alcohol in those days, indeed in his pre-Mac John Mayall days he was regularly thrown out of the band (and literally the van) by Mayall only to be reinstated for the next gig. Mick Fleetwood's excesses are also well documented as are Jeremy Spencer's, indeed the latter would regularly change some of the lyrics during songs to those of a more earthy variety! Peter was a different man to the man he became by 1969/1970, his humour was as earthy as the others, as they were not earning much in those pre chart days he didn't feel the need to give it away, and the LSD days didn't start until they toured the States supporting the Dead. The Mac felt the need to counter the essentially downbeat mood of the blues with their own brand of inimitable humour. The music itself was basic blues, even their own compositions never strayed far from the blues template. The days of "Man of the World", "Manalishi" and "Oh Well" were still over 18 months away, remember these were the days of the "Dustbin" album. The big controversy just around the corner was when they put strings on "Need Your Love So Bad"!!

[ThePenguin]

The pre-Rumours days of the Mac, and indeed the pre "Greeny goes weird and gives his money away" era are easily forgotten, especially by you American friends who never had the pleasure of seeing the early Mac. Booze and crude humour featured with Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac as much as their great music. John McVie was well known for his liking for the demon alcohol in those days, indeed in his pre-Mac John Mayall days he was regularly thrown out of the band (and literally the van) by Mayall only to be reinstated for the next gig. Mick Fleetwood's excesses are also well documented as are Jeremy Spencer's, indeed the latter would regularly change some of the lyrics during songs to those of a more earthy variety! Peter was a different man to the man he became by 1969/1970, his humour was as earthy as the others, as they were not earning much in those pre chart days he didn't feel the need to give it away, and the LSD days didn't start until they toured the States supporting the Dead. The Mac felt the need to counter the essentially downbeat mood of the blues with their own brand of inimitable humour. The music itself was basic blues, even their own compositions never strayed far from the blues template. The days of "Man of the World", "Manalishi" and "Oh Well" were still over 18 months away, remember these were the days of the "Dustbin" album. The big controversy just around the corner was when they put strings on "Need Your Love So Bad"!!


I am so jealous that you got to see them way back in the beginning...I would have loved to hear Jeremy's crude humor and see Pete's incredible charisma.

It is difficult to imagine John on the floor LOL. John Mayall did say he had to throw him out of the van and leave him at a bus stop one night, as they were afraid he was going to throw up and was "completely out of control!" I just recently was reading an older interview w/ Mayall-- he said John was such a straight 16 yr old schoolboy when he began working w/ the Bluesbreakers, but that in that pub environment, he got quickly pulled into the drinking scene (even though Mayall himself never drank, he got through the gig "with a pint of milk"!) He recalled John was such a darn good player but that sometimes he got to the point of being "unable to hold his instrument." I wonder if Mayall sometimes felt a bit responsible for John's 'overindulgence'-- I mean, he was just a kid, really, while mayall was nearly 30.

-Lis

[sharksfan2000]

Mick Fleetwood's excesses are also well documented as are Jeremy Spencer's, indeed the latter would regularly change some of the lyrics during songs to those of a more earthy variety! Peter was a different man to the man he became by 1969/1970, his humour was as earthy as the others
Fortunately some examples of Jeremy and Peter changing song lyrics have survived in bootlegged shows - helps demonstrate what a different band they were on stage than in the studio. There are not many live shows around from that first, pre-Danny Kirwan period, so it's wonderful to have your first-hand recollections of that time, windjammer. :)

Did you ever have the chance to meet and talk with any of the band members back in the early days?

[Blue Horizon]

Great to hear your tales Windjammer of 67/68
I also saw the Mac a few times back in 68 when they played the 'Toby Jug' pub in Tolworth, the 'Blue Horizon' pub in Battersea, South London and the 'Gin Mill' club at the Angel Hotel in Godalming Surrey.
You are spot on with regards to their earthy humour and choice swear words, not forgetting of course 'Harold' the dildo' which used to live on Mick's kick drum bobing up and down in time with the beat. Jeremy was so vulgar at times that he used to make me feel embarrased let alone all the femail fans in attendance. The music which was 100% blues based, was out of this world and I would stand there absolutely dumbstruck by Peter's guitar playing. I have never heard anybody before or since play and sing the blues like him-Pure Magic.
I can also recall a gig after Danny had joined at the 'Surrey Tavern' Oval cricket ground when Peter played a good hour or so with an ape mask on! He was so funny doing all of the stuff that a real ape would do, had to be seen to be belived. I went to the gig with a workmate who knew Danny Kirwan from school and as the Mac were leaving the stage he called out to Danny. Danny indicated that he would releave himself of his Gibson Les Paul and come back out to join us, which he did. We exchanged hello's and had a brief chat about how things were going and the gig they had just played. Danny looked shattered and had a few days worth of stubble on his face, confirming that life with the Mac was very hetic to say the least. Apparently the reason they were late on stage that evening was they had been to the 'Top of the Pops' studio to record
'Man of the World' for the BBC. One thing that I did notice was his left hand finger tips which were red raw! Being a guitar player myself I was quite shocked at this as your finger tips become quite hard and accustomed to playing. Danny just made light of this when mentioned and did'nt seem to bother him one jot. Anyone who has seen or heard Danny play will know his great vibrato technique and this was the price he was paying. It still makes me sad to think of Danny and the loss of his playing to us all. I hope he is happy and in good health. Unfortunately I lost touch with my workmate many years ago before Danny gave up his solo career, but I did meet Danny again briefly whilst he was still with Fleetwood Mac at another gig in London. Our conversation was cut short somewhat when Dinkey Dawson their roadie shouted to Danny to make haste to the exit and get going to the next stop of their tour-: dont remember where that might have been.
I have fond memories of those great times back then and Danny was a real nice guy besides a truly excellent guitar player. Untill Peter left, the Mac were out of this world when playing live- as they are now having seen them at Earls Court last year.
So lots of great memories for me -a Fleetwood Mac fan since late 67.
Hope you enjoy the little tales above.

Blue Horizon.

[wondergirl9847]

These stories are amazing!! :D The fans' stories are probably the only ones we will hear about in regards to early FM. :(

[sharksfan2000]

Wonderful stories, Blue Horizon! I never get tired of hearing stories about the band in their early years. Hope you and windjammer can share more of them with us.

[ThePenguin]

Blue Horizon, thanks for your memories. I love to read stuff like that.

-Lis

[rhubarb]

Blue Horizon, I was at the 'Toby Jug' gig (Tolworth, Surrey). My god........I don't think you could get anymore than 150 people in there! But what a performance! Something i'll never ever forget for the rest of my life.

Jeez, I saw Mayall, Captain Beefheart, Savoy Brown, Free, Keef Hartley , Tim Rose, Mac, Chicken Shack and Led Zeppelin at that pub and they are only the ones I can remember! Those mid week blues sessions were a blast! It's hard to believe it all happened.......but it did!! Happy days indeed.

[Blue Horizon]

Great days indeed Rhubarb!
Most of the blues clubs on the circuit in the late 60's were very small and as you state 150-200 persons max were the order of the day. Saw all those bands you listed plus Jethro Tull, Ten Years After, Duster Bennett and Blodwyn Pig at the various venues I listed. Used to get into the gigs for about 2/6d -5/0d (pre decimal in those days) which makes the mind boggle somewhat now.
I remember the Mac used to turn up in a couple of white Ford transit vans which had messages scrawled all over them by fans usually in lipstick, plus a couple of dents from gun target practice. Somebody told me that Mick-I think?-used to take aim now and again! Dont know if thats true or not, but it sounds like the sort of thing they used to get up to.
Yes it did happen Rhubarb, but a very long time ago indeed.

Blue Horizon

[ThePenguin]

Jeez, I saw Mayall, Chicken Shack ... Those mid week blues sessions were a blast! It's hard to believe it all happened.......but it did!! Happy days indeed.


Any stand out memories of Mayall or Chicken Shack? I'm so curious about the old days. Can anyone describe what Chris was like onstage back then-- did she talk etc? Did guys think she was a good looking bird LOL?

-Lis

[macfan 57]

I'd be interested in Christine & Chicken Shack too. What was Christine's onstage demeanor like? How did she & Stan Webb interact? I've heard he was pretty wild on stage.

[desertangel]

These stories make me giggle :lol: I can totally see Mick destroying his kit, seems it was the "in" thing to do. That and smash guitars.

Doesn't surprise me to learn they threatened to do some Hendrix. Did anyone else know this....? According to Eddie Kramer's book, Peter Green contributed on Hendrix's "Third Stone From the Sun." Man, I love that song... it's so ethereal. Imagine Albatross and Third Stone next to each other on a CD. :angel:

Laura

[sharksfan2000]

According to Eddie Kramer's book, Peter Green contributed on Hendrix's "Third Stone From the Sun"

Laura, I've never heard this before - could you elaborate on what the book says about Green's contribution? Thanks :)

[desertangel]

Sure...

"With little available cash, but hot to capitalize on Hendrix's creative burst, Chandler called in a favor promised to him by an engineer who worked at CBS Studios in London. The Experience were allowed to come in one evening after midnight for a few hours. With John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac guitarist Peter Green in attendance, the Experience laid down basic tracks for a new song Hendrix was calling "Third Stone From the Sun." While they lacked the time to fully complete the song, Hendrix's latest composition was a quantum leap from songs such as "Remember."

The book later mentions that some parts of this song were overdubbed.

While it only says Green was "in attendance," in the same sentence it says basic tracks were laid down. So I dunno, it sounded to me like he may have added something to the song. Especially after learning Brian Jones guested in the studio and laid down a keyboard part for All Along the Watchtower (??) but his part was later scrapped cuz it didn't sound right.

Whadya think?

Laura

[sharksfan2000]

Wow - that's really interesting info. The date of that recording of "Third Stone From The Sun" must have been in late '66 or early '67. The passage from the book is a bit misleading when it talks about "Fleetwood Mac guitarist Peter Green" since he was still with Mayall & the Bluesbreakers at that time.

Wonder whether Mayall & Green were at the CBS studio specifically to see Hendrix record "Third Stone", since the Bluesbreakers were with Decca, not CBS. Also wondering who the engineer at CBS might have been? Mike Ross is listed as the recording engineer on Fleetwood Mac's recording sessions at the CBS studio later in '67 - perhaps he was the one?

Fascinating to think that Green could have played some part in the recording of "Third Stone", although we'll probably never know just what happened that night at the studio. I think that "Underway" bears some resemblence to "Third Stone" - maybe that was Green's way of paying tribute to Hendrix?

[desertangel]

I assume it was early to mid 1967. Backtracking in the book from that excerpt, the first date I find is Feb. 1967 when Experience were touring around London and recording between shows. Several pages after the excerpt, the next year listed is 1968. I think the mention of Fleetwood Mac was so the casual reader would know who Peter Green is. Who knows who the person at CBS was. (Chandler was using several different studios during that time, trying to find one with the right fit. Which is partly why Electric Lady was built in New York.) My guess is that Green and Mayall were at CBS checking the studio out and just popped in, since that's how Brian Jones ended up guesting as a keyboard player. He was in one of the other studios that night and just popped in. Hendrix was known for handing an instrument to anyone who was a musician and popped in during his sessions.

Third Stone is one of my favorite Hendrix songs, so I was really excited to learn Peter Green was in the studio. It's very possible if he did put anything down that it could have been overdubbed. Seems Jimi was famous for redoing things. And it's hard to listen to the song and know. Even the remaster is hard to pick out very many layers. I'm trying to understand this whole recording process thing; the book talks about how they would record on 4 tracks, then mix them down so Jimi could put lead guitar and vocals on. This was to save time and money and because Jimi would record over and over until the tape was just about fried. Maybe whatever got mixed down on the first tracks got sqwashed so bad it would be hard to pick out something as subtle as a "guest" guitar player.

I only have one Peter Green LP, In the Skies. I'll have to check out the song you mentioned. About a day or two ago when I was listening to Third Stone, it hit me that there is a Cure song out there with the same vocal effects pattern. So I'm going to have to dig all those albums out, find the song and see if there's some Hendrix inspired words. I'm sure there's no end to the artists who've been inspired by Jimi. It's fun connecting the dots, when there's nothing better to do. ;)

Fascinating...

Laura

[sharksfan2000]

Thanks for the additional info, Laura. I don't know a lot about Hendrix & his recording sessions so your input is much appreciated. Curious that Martin Celmins' biography of Peter Green does not mention this recording studio incident - seems interesting enough that it should have been included there.

You're most likely right that if Green and/or Mayall did record anything with Hendrix that night it was either lost beneath layers of overdubs or just edited out. Looking at the Chrome Oxide web page for Hendrix - Chrome Oxide - Jimi Hendrix Experience (http://www.chromeoxide.com/hendrix.htm) - it looks like there was at least one alternate version of "Third Stone" that was recorded, so it's also possible that the basic tracks from the CBS studio session ended up on an alternate version. Maybe someone who has an alternate version of "Third Stone" can tell us more. By the way, the Chrome Oxide site is where I found the recording dates for the Are You Experienced album tracks - 12/66 through 4/67. It's not any more specific than that regarding the album version of "Third Stone" although it lists 1/11/67 as the date for the alternate version (that's listed as from DeLane Le studio in London, but it's possible that some of it could have been recorded elsewhere).

The song I mentioned, "Underway", is from Fleetwood Mac's Then Play On album, and is part of a longer jam that was released in it's entirety on the Vaudeville Years 2-disc set from a few years ago. Sounds like you're a Cure fan, so I'm sure you know that Hendrix is a favorite of Robert Smith (the Cure covered "Foxy Lady" on their first album, and did "Purple Haze" on the Stone Free Hendrix tribute album). I found this quote from a review of the Cure's recent Join The Dots 4-disc b-side & rarities compilation:

The two versions of Hendrix’ Purple Haze are both interesting, a recognizable full band version followed by a dirgelike, keyboard-drenched Smith solo version that sounds more like Third Stone From the Sun.
So maybe that's the Cure song you're thinking of - maybe it's not a coincidence that you mentioned "connecting the dots" in your post :D Thanks again on all the info about this interesting Green-Hendrix connection.

[desertangel]

The thing about these historical recounts... there's a lot of jabber about who's recollections are accurate and whose aren't, who's sensationalizing and who isn't. That makes it difficult for fans who want to know what really happened.

Chrome Oxide is a great site. I was able to attend my first ever record show with information provided there. It was all pretty overwhelming to me. There was a lot of really rare stuff, really expensive stuff, some junk and a lot of elbowing. Everybody had portable DVD and CD players (except me, I expected only vinyl.) And I was like a kid in a candy store, too many choices!!

If there are alternate versions or premix down masters of Third Stone circulating, I will do my best to get a copy. If Green is present, and it shouldn't be too hard to tell, I'll let you know and provide a copy if you'd like. Seems there's a ton of bootleg material openly and freely circulating in the Hendrix community.

I have Then Play On, so I'll have to dig it out and give it a spin.

Actually, I wasn't positive on the Cure-Hendrix connection, was just something that jumped up and bit me one day when I was listening. I only have Staring at the Sea, Kiss Me..., Disentigration, Pornography and the Trilogy DVD. So I didn't know they covered Foxey Lady. I'll have to find that and give a listen. I've been too deep into Fleetwood Mac for several years to bother with very much information about other bands. For some reason, recently, I decided to dig around in the Hendrix fold. There's a bargeful of stuff and it's all very intriguing, kinda like the Mac. One day I was reading liner notes on a Goo Goo Dolls album and discovered the lead singer is a fan of The Cure. No surprise there either, I believe it was the opening riff to "Truth is a Whisper" off the Gutterflower album that gave it away. I remember when Robin Trower first hit the scene, we all figured it was Jimi Hendrix and that he faked his own death. :D

Too much good music, fascinating information and not near enough hours in a day to take it all in. hehe what a terrible dilema, eh?

Laura

[annaconda69]

Man, I've been away from this site for too long.... Dealin' with life get's in the way of good reading. Nice to stumble across these lovely recollections of Green & the Boys....
I vaguely remember being dragged to the Fillmore & Winterland back when I was about 12, lol.... My mom wouldn't let my brother go out unless he took me along so I got to go to tons of gigs before I even knew how lucky I really was. It fueled my passion for guitar players & got me hooked on the Mac pre-chicks.... Remember, this was back in the day in S.F. when you could hitch-hike as a female & camp out in front of clubs overnight to get in & sit right up close at the foot of the stage. So, it wasn't too wierd bein' out after dark for me. Even than I knew it was pretty dang cool being able to see & hear monster players before they went totally through the roof & ya could still sit at their feet.
I don't remember much but that I dug Green's sweet playing & knew Jeremy was a fab slide player. & there was always this funny smell in the air & everyone rolled their own ciggies. I do remember sitting on the lip of the stage at one of my idol's feet, Van Morrison, while he sang at our local fairgrounds I think it was.... & him with his terrible stagefright where he wouldn't even open his eyes but for a second here & there.... But I digress.... this is a Fleetwood Mac forum....
I'd love it if any of you guys has personal pics of the band from this era.... Yeah, like we brought a camera, lol....

[desertangel]

I NEVER thought of taking a camera ...the most important concert a-cu-tre-mon at the time was mind candy, at least with us it was. Yep, I went to several great concerts; Ten Years After, Black Sabbath, Yes, Alice Cooper, Billy Cobham.. and don't remember much about them at all. It's a drag, because so many of the great people, like Alvin Lee, are no longer around.

My 2 older brothers always got stuck with me (12 at the time) for all the concerts they went to. Tickets WERE more affordable and it was great for getting kids out of the house for the night. Glad they weren't the kind of parents that burned rock and roll albums. GAWD!! :lol:

Laura