Spoiler-Chris Isaak-Christmas! [Archive]

estranged4life

12-02-2004, 11:30 PM

Just finished watching (And recording) the "Chris Isaak Christmas", So do not read below the green line if you do not want to be spoiled:

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It was a great looking Stevie tonite on the "Chris Isaak Christmas" episode of Soundstage...She looked damn sexy, Much better than she did on the "Live In Boston" Soundstage/DVD/etc. Even a few camera closeups from the side proved she looked much sexier than ever...And her voice sounded great, But sounded just undermixed a tad.

Chris Isaak introduced Stevie the following humorous way:

"One of the nice things about being in show business is to not only to be able to entertain but to also find and discover new talent and we have somebody tonight I think you will hear alot of in the future and I want you to give her a warm welcome, Stevie Nicks...Remember that name."

Of course she sang on "Santa Claus is Coming to Town", But only after being teased with a few musical bars of a song Chris called a "Christmas classic". Once the jazzy music started, the piano player, Scott Plunkett, lead everyone on the forementioned "Christmas Classic" alright, A few short bars of Rhiannon to which Stevie was amused to hear. (It sounded quite cool...They should have played the whole version of it in that jazzy-esqe sound!)

Stevie finished the song ("Santa Claus is Coming To Town") and after a very short intermission she came back to the stage with the other special guests, Brian McKnight & the other guy whos name escapes me at the moment to sing "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" in which Stevie sounded great.

Btw, The credits showed the following phone number where you can purchase the "Chris Isaak Christmas" DVD, Which includes bonus footage not shown tonite for $19.95 (Maybe some bonus Stevie footage???)

1-866-383-4643

I recommend watching this show if it airs on yer local PBS station...Very entertaining and very humorous!!!

Brian j.

KateTheCursed

12-02-2004, 11:35 PM

I couldn't agree more. I thought it was a wonderful performance...the only downside being that it came to an end far too soon.

strandinthewind

12-02-2004, 11:36 PM

Thanks Brian - just ordered it!!!!!!!!!! Who knows WHEN Atlanta will air it :laugh:

estranged4life

12-02-2004, 11:36 PM

I couldn't agree more. I thought it was a wonderful performance...the only downside being that it came to an end far too soon.

my DVD burner's counter had it at 56 minutes...Shoulda/coulda been much longer IMHO.

Brian j.

strandinthewind

12-02-2004, 11:38 PM

When I get mine (should be like two weeks) I will check it against your's - etc. :cool:

estranged4life

12-02-2004, 11:40 PM

When I get mine (should be like two weeks) I will check it against your's - etc. :cool:

I may order it myself since it was a great show!

Brian j.

GardenStateGirlie

12-02-2004, 11:42 PM

From what I heard, it sounded incredibly good and yes, despite having no picture, I laughed at Chris's jokes. I think i'm going to end up ordering it :thumbsup:

estranged4life

12-02-2004, 11:45 PM

From what I heard, it sounded incredibly good and yes, despite having no picture, I laughed at Chris's jokes. I think i'm going to end up ordering it :thumbsup:

his jokes were pretty good, But the "Christmas Classic" song was the best one :thumbsup:

Brian j.

ShangriLaTroubl

12-02-2004, 11:51 PM

I just ordered one...but she said "it should take 3-4 weeks" lol o well i will watch it after christmas

Johnny Stew

12-03-2004, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the review, Brian!
I'm really anxious to see this... hopefully at least one of my two local PBS stations will air it.

sodascouts

12-03-2004, 12:59 AM

Thanks for the review, Brian!
I'm really anxious to see this... hopefully at least one of my two local PBS stations will air it.

Mine didn't air it!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

WelshWitchPMD

12-03-2004, 07:44 AM

Soundstage was a no show here in RI and only in Boston IF you have digital which I don't. :(

ontheEdgeof17

12-03-2004, 09:41 AM

No air here, either. :( :mad:

It was on at 5 am, but I went to the bar and got home around 2 and needed much sleep. If I stayed home, I was going to just get up and pop in a tape since my TV timer is whack. Oh well, such is life. :o

ShangriLaTroubl

12-03-2004, 12:21 PM

Hmmm...so who is gonna be the first to put this performance onto a wma file and post it somewhere? hellooo?

Chris

Nixxxed

12-03-2004, 01:56 PM

PBS in Houston is now split into two channels - digital cable and air broadcast (which also shows up on primitive cable).

The digital channel premiered the special last night, and is showing it about 15 times this month. If you have regular cable or are watching PBS with rabbit ears, you have to wait until Dec. 18th. The only other time the regular broadcast will show it is on Dec. 24th.

Which sucks, IMHO. :nod:

Livia

12-03-2004, 04:14 PM

I saw it! It was on at 4 AM last nite, I taped it, forgot to check this morning, but went home for lunch and ff-d thru everything else to see Stevie! Did anyone notice her tambourine ribbons? Were they red and green, or different shades of red? She sounds FABULOUS on both songs. And Chris Isaak should do stand up, he's damn funny! :thumbsup:

Enchanted_Stevi

12-03-2004, 04:34 PM

I watched it this morning before going to school.....I woke up at 4:51 am to watch it at 5am....plus I video taped it. I love it when Chris says "down and sexy" and Stevie did a funny thing....lol...She's so funny! She looked as GORGOUS as ever....like she always does. I ant to order it and see if there is extra footage of Stevie :blob2: :blob1:

GODDESS6

12-03-2004, 10:04 PM

friggin' awesome!!!~ it didn't air here until 11 am this morning & then again periodically thruout the day, it was a gr8 show, the whole playing of the beginning of "rhiannon" was priceless~ loved all the humor & stevie's was the best "comet, cupid, donner & blitzen", i have ever heard!!! :nod: :thumbsup: :nod: ~ i also orderd it on dvd, i can't wait 2 get it, i thought when they showed the phone #, they said there was more footage than showed during the hour show :shrug: ~ oh yeah & i loved & the end when chris introduced her, he said "little stevie nicks", lol, how cute was that?

ricohv

12-04-2004, 12:41 AM

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 12:58 AM

Ok-did it not sound like Stevie was singing in a sweet much higher than usual voice? And didn't she look effortless doing it??? Was it just me??? Does this prove she hasd not lost her range? If yes, why does she constantly try to make us think she has lost her range???

Call me deluded (shut it, dissention :p), but I've never thought she's lost all of her range... I really do think it's a matter of her just not singing with it. My belief is that singing night after night proves to be too much of a strain on her voice if she goes beyond the range we typically hear from her, so she avoids it in order to preserve her voice.
But one-off performances like this are a different story.

She sounded beautifully sweet on "Say Goodbye" too, on various recordings I've heard from the tour... but that's another case where it's just one song on which she's not singing lead. So something like that is probably more "do-able" than singing several songs that way, as the lead vocalist.

Anyway, that's just my theory... I'm sure others will completely disagree! :laugh:

ricohv

12-04-2004, 01:24 AM

Yes- there are times where she does still pull out the higher voice. I thought it was funny how she'd sing so pretty and high but when she walked up to the microphone and said "hi Chris" it was in the much deeper voice. I also notice when she was singing higher there was not really any vibratto to it-I always kind of wonder if that is natural or affectation?!?
Anyways...sheesh...too bad the early-in-the-SYW-tour-TV-appearances couldn't have been a little more like this. This was the Stevie we all know and love and clamor for. I remember when Rolling Stone did a review of one of the Tango shows and they said something like "Stevie Nicks, the eternal time-warped love-goddess casts her spell again...". This performance made me think that again. F*ck!!! She looked so good!!. And even though she looked a little hippy (i.e. her hips looked a little on the biggish side) I think that dress was more of what she wants as far as "slenderizing black". The sheer, sort of tiered or layery effect worked well...or maybe it was the boots (YEEHAW!!!!) giving her legs an extra 6 inches!! :D

CelticGypsy

12-04-2004, 03:57 AM

Loved Stevie and loved how her dress sort of matched Chris's jacket. ;)
By the way, the little white dog at the end of the show is so cute :) :) :) I guess it belongs to Chris Isaak.

MACFAN

12-04-2004, 10:26 AM

I havent seen the special yet. However on the debate of Stevie's range. Almost all singers after 30 years in the business will lose some range, it's inevitable. I recently saw Whitney Houston on some show and although she sounded great, she most definately lost some of her range. I have a friend who sings in a band and on some nights she sounds awesome (her Silver Springs is great) and on some nights, well even she knows it just was not happening. She says that some days her voice just does not want to get up and go to work.

After seeing some 12 SYW shows the only one I can think of where Stevie was a tad off was the Nassau Coliseum show. Another instance is Stevie's storytellers. I was at the taping and that voice was all over that damn room. When she sang HAEWAFY, I got chills she reminded me of Streisand (whom I'm not a fan of), the effect was overwhelming. However when I viewed the show on TV, it sounded like a different taping.

estranged4life

12-04-2004, 11:17 AM

LilyRose

12-04-2004, 04:06 PM

By the way, the little white dog at the end of the show is so cute :) :) :) I guess it belongs to Chris Isaak.

I saw Chris Isaak perform in San Francisco this past Thurs. night and I got to meet him afterward. The dog is actually his personal assistant's dog, but as she said, "Chris thinks it's his dog." It's so cute. I got a picture of it. He brought it out on stage for the last song, but it got up and walked backstage again. I guess it didn't feel like entertaining that night. :D

Susie

dissention

12-04-2004, 04:41 PM

Call me deluded (shut it, dissention :p), but I've never thought she's lost all of her range... I really do think it's a matter of her just not singing with it. My belief is that singing night after night proves to be too much of a strain on her voice if she goes beyond the range we typically hear from her, so she avoids it in order to preserve her voice.
But one-off performances like this are a different story.

Hi, Deluded! :wavey:

Of course she hasn't lost all of her range, otherwise she'd never be singing amazing versions of Beautiful Child. But she's lost a LOT of her range from misusing her voice for years. Anyone who tries to say that her current voice is just from aging is nuts, she killed that voice of hers and it's a bloody miracle that she can even speak, let alone sing a song. If she had sung properly, she'd probably only have lost a fraction of what she has. Look at Ann Wilson or Patti Labelle or Cyndi Lauper or Debbie Harry or Linda Ronstadt or Martha Davis. Between them, they haven't lost much range at all because while they knew when not to f*ck with their voices and they knew how to sing properly; they learned one way or another. Stevie didn't learn until the nineties and that was when most of the damage had been done. :laugh: I wince when I hear those reels where she says she takes care of her voice with cough drops and when she breathes in moist air to "open up" her voice. No wonder she had a sore throat constantly.

I've taken voice lessons for years and the worst thing to do is to sing with your throat. When you start doing that, your voice starts shredding, cracking, and running out of steam by the third or fourth song. You lose your range for that night and if you keep up, you lose more and more eventually. :nod: The reason Julie Andrews had so many vocal problems is because she didn't song properly for quite a long time.

GardenStateGirlie

12-04-2004, 04:54 PM

Hi, Deluded! :wavey:

Of course she hasn't lost all of her range, otherwise she'd never be singing amazing versions of Beautiful Child. But she's lost a LOT of her range from misusing her voice for years. Anyone who tries to say that her current voice is just from aging is nuts, she killed that voice of hers and it's a bloody miracle that she can even speak, let alone sing a song. If she had sung properly, she'd probably only have lost a fraction of what she has. Look at Ann Wilson or Patti Labelle or Cyndi Lauper or Debbie Harry or Linda Ronstadt or Martha Davis. Between them, they haven't lost much range at all because while they knew when not to f*ck with their voices and they knew how to sing properly; they learned one way or another. Stevie didn't learn until the nineties and that was when most of the damage had been done. :laugh: I wince when I hear those reels where she says she takes care of her voice with cough drops and when she breathes in moist air to "open up" her voice. No wonder she had a sore throat constantly.

I've taken voice lessons for years and the worst thing to do is to sing with your throat. When you start doing that, your voice starts shredding, cracking, and running out of steam by the third or fourth song. You lose your range for that night and if you keep up, you lose more and more eventually. :nod: The reason Julie Andrews had so many vocal problems is because she didn't song properly for quite a long time.

Ugh...vomit vomit vomit...(this is me, agreeing with Dissention...it hurts my everything :nod: ). He's right on. YEARS and YEARS she screamed out Rhiannon and a myriad of other songs. She never had formal training until recent years and had she not received that formal training, I fear her voice would be shot to sh*t by now. However, I love Stevie's voice...always have.. always will. But, had she properly breathed and sang from her diaphragm and not her throat, we might be hearing a different Stevie now. I kind of like her as she is though :shrug:

dissention

12-04-2004, 05:00 PM

Ugh...vomit vomit vomit...(this is me, agreeing with Dissention...it hurts my everything :nod: ).

:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

I did my good deed for the day. :laugh:

amber

12-04-2004, 05:24 PM

Ugh...vomit vomit vomit...(this is me, agreeing with Dissention...it hurts my everything :nod: ). He's right on. YEARS and YEARS she screamed out Rhiannon and a myriad of other songs. She never had formal training until recent years and had she not received that formal training, I fear her voice would be shot to sh*t by now. However, I love Stevie's voice...always have.. always will. But, had she properly breathed and sang from her diaphragm and not her throat, we might be hearing a different Stevie now. I kind of like her as she is though :shrug:
Yeah, but so what? that didn't happen, and we have millions of great performances because of it. And now we have this Stevie. I mean, it's not as though by talking about it we can go back in time and make Stevie sing properly :shrug: (thank goodness) You know, Stevie shoulda done this and that, blah. Well, she didn't, we have still an astonishing number of incredible performances, and get over it! :wavey: :p

dissention

12-04-2004, 06:13 PM

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 06:44 PM

Hi, Deluded! :wavey:

Of course she hasn't lost all of her range, otherwise she'd never be singing amazing versions of Beautiful Child. But she's lost a LOT of her range from misusing her voice for years.

I don't disagree at all with anything you said. She's most definitely lost a lot of her range (of course, as I've said before, I LOVE her current voice -- it has such substance and character). I just wanted to point out that, contrary to popular belief, she hasn't lost all of it. She still has an upper range beyond what we get to hear on a regular basis, but for one reason or another, she doesn't sing with it. But when she does... it's stunning.

You didn't bring this up, but I'm definitely in the same camp with those fans (which I know you are one of) who would much rather see her focus solely on recording now, and semi-retire from the road (a one-off show here and there would be cool, or maybe a short tour after every other album).

But that's the selfish side of my fandom. If Stevie really does still enjoy touring, then she should do what makes her happy.

dissention

12-04-2004, 06:54 PM

I don't disagree at all with anything you said. She's most definitely lost a lot of her range (of course, as I've said before, I LOVE her current voice -- it has such substance and character). I just wanted to point out that, contrary to popular belief, she hasn't lost all of it. She still has an upper range beyond what we get to hear on a regular basis, but for one reason or another, she doesn't sing with it. But when she does... it's stunning.

I wouldn't call it stunning because it's too weak for that moniker, but I would definitely call it refreshing. :nod:

You didn't bring this up, but I'm definitely in the same camp with those fans (which I know you are one of) who would much rather see her focus solely on recording now, and semi-retire from the road (a one-off show here and there would be cool, or maybe a short tour after every other album).

I agree. I think that if she could do things differently like playing new songs and making the show simpler instead of theatrical, she'd have a lot more energy to put into the shows and the songs themselves, so I'd enjoy them. But since this will not happen in my lifetime, I'd like to see her record instead of tour. Honestly, she's in her golden years, she should concentrate on recording lots of good music instead of time passing her by as she sings Rhiannon for the twelve millionth time. :nod:

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 07:12 PM

I wouldn't call it stunning because it's too weak for that moniker, but I would definitely call it refreshing. :nod:

It's the frailty of it that I find stunning and beautiful... and, in that frailty, it's very powerful. At least in my opinion.

Other singers may be able to hit the notes better or with more strength, but I find far more beauty in Stevie's weird little imperfect voice, which sounds like it might give out on her at any time. :shrug:

dissention

12-04-2004, 07:22 PM

It's the frailty of it that I find stunning and beautiful... and, in that frailty, it's very powerful. At least in my opinion.

Other singers may be able to hit the notes better or with more strength, but I find far more beauty in Stevie's weird little imperfect voice, which sounds like it might give out on her at any time. :shrug:

I just think that it sounds like she's really straining to hit those notes sometimes. I like her voice when it's powerful but still warm and emotive, like around Street Angel and The Dance.

Serrart

12-04-2004, 07:22 PM

I'd like to see her record instead of tour. Honestly, she's in her golden years, she should concentrate on recording lots of good music instead of time passing her by as she sings Rhiannon for the twelve millionth time. :nod:

Is it common for singers in US to tour in theatres? I'm asking it because I love those kind of shows, the emotions are much stronger, IMO. Stevie could risk more in a small venue, both in the setlist and the performance.

Romy

ShangriLaTroubl

12-04-2004, 07:28 PM

Is it common for singers in US to tour in theatres? I'm asking it because I love those kind of shows, the emotions are much stronger, IMO. Stevie could risk more in a small venue, both in the setlist and the performance.

Romy

Well, not COMMON. A lot of bigger artists will tour theatres after they do a large tour, just for fun, or the more intimate feel like you said. Stevie did a small theatre tour in late 1999. She did a couple of shows extending it past the New Year in 2000, I'm sure you've heard about it..the Millenium Tour as she called it....pretty cool.
Just depends on the artist really...People like Norah Jones, Jewel, etc do theatres a lot...Heart does a lot of theatres

Chris

dissention

12-04-2004, 07:28 PM

Is it common for singers in US to tour in theatres? I'm asking it because I love those kind of shows, the emotions are much stronger, IMO. Stevie could risk more in a small venue, both in the setlist and the performance.

Romy

It depends on the performer. I'm sure Stevie would see performing in a theater a step down for a tour of hers, whereas people like Bob Dylan and Neil Young thrive in small venues and play them every time they're on the road. I'd love to see her tour small theaters and clubs, though, she'd be a natural and the performances would be spectacular, I would imagine.

ShangriLaTroubl

12-04-2004, 07:30 PM

You didn't bring this up, but I'm definitely in the same camp with those fans (which I know you are one of) who would much rather see her focus solely on recording now, and semi-retire from the road (a one-off show here and there would be cool, or maybe a short tour after every other album).

Maybe I'm in a wierd minority...I love her albums...but I enjoy the tours better...

Chris

amber

12-04-2004, 08:46 PM

Aren't you the one who thinks Stevie should wish for her range and mobility back? :p

This place is here for discussion and if people want to bring up her voice and how it has or hasn't lost range, they're welcome to. :wavey:
right, and then i can say, to the people who b*** incessantly about how much she sucks, and why, to get over it, we can't go back in time. And yes, i'm talking about you. :)

GardenStateGirlie

12-04-2004, 08:56 PM

Yeah, but so what? that didn't happen, and we have millions of great performances because of it. And now we have this Stevie. I mean, it's not as though by talking about it we can go back in time and make Stevie sing properly :shrug: (thank goodness) You know, Stevie shoulda done this and that, blah. Well, she didn't, we have still an astonishing number of incredible performances, and get over it! :wavey: :p

Ooooh Ammmber deeaaar....I believe I ended my post by saying, "...I kind of like her as she is though." If I thought she was horrible, I assure you, I wouldn't have spent a ton of money following Fleetwood Mac around the east coast for 13 shows over the past year and a half to see them. Honestly, if we could turn back the hands of time, I wouldn't want her to sound any other way. It's THAT voice that has appealed to the masses for all of these years. JS is right...there is a frality about it that no matter what the reason is for having it is incredibly unique and yes, to me stunning AND refreshing in comparison to PEOPLE WHO BELT IT OUT THAT DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO (a la Jessica Simpson and many many others).

My response to Dissention was certainly not to knock Stevie in any way shape or form. However, it was to agree with him that yes, from a vocal point of view (this is also coming from someone who's been singing since she's been a tyke) Stevie is unable to have the same register she once had NOT ONLY due to aging but due to the fact that she never sang properly up until the past few years. Let's also not forget that this is the woman who smoked a ton of cigarettes on a daily basis and in general, didn't take very good care of herself.

All I can ever ask from a performer when I go to see them in concert is that they go out there and give 100% and I believe wholeheartedly that she does both emotionally and vocally. She's not Ann Wilson, she's not Cyndi Lauper or Debbie Harry. She's Stevie Nicks and I think she's pretty damn fabulous :nod:

amber

12-04-2004, 09:03 PM

Ooooh Ammmber deeaaar....I believe I ended my post by saying, "...I kind of like her as she is though." If I thought she was horrible, I assure you, I wouldn't have spent a ton of money following Fleetwood Mac around the east coast for 13 shows over the past year and a half to see them. Honestly, if we could turn back the hands of time, I wouldn't want her to sound any other way. It's THAT voice that has appealed to the masses for all of these years. JS is right...there is a frality about it that no matter what the reason is for having it is incredibly unique and yes, to me stunning AND refreshing in comparison to PEOPLE WHO BELT IT OUT THAT DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO (a la Jessica Simpson and many many others).

My response to Dissention was certainly not to knock Stevie in any way shape or form. However, it was to agree with him that yes, from a vocal point of view (this is also coming from someone who's been singing since she's been a tyke) Stevie is unable to have the same register she once had NOT ONLY due to aging but due to the fact that she never sang properly up until the past few years. Let's also not forget that this is the woman who smoked a ton of cigarettes on a daily basis and in general, didn't take very good care of herself.

All I can ever ask from a performer when I go to see them in concert is that they go out there and give 100% and I believe wholeheartedly that she does both emotionally and vocally. She's not Ann Wilson, she's not Cyndi Lauper or Debbie Harry. She's Stevie Nicks and I think she's pretty damn fabulous :nod:
yeah, i realized later i should've quoted his post, not yours. :p :wavey: :sorry:

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 09:16 PM

She's not Ann Wilson, she's not Cyndi Lauper or Debbie Harry. She's Stevie Nicks and I think she's pretty damn fabulous :nod:

Hear that? It's the sound of applause for an excellent post. :nod: :D

dissention

12-04-2004, 09:21 PM

right, and then i can say, to the people who b*** incessantly about how much she sucks, and why, to get over it, we can't go back in time. And yes, i'm talking about you. :)

And I could give a rats ass. ;) The point is, this is a place to discuss all things regarding the music. If you don't like the discussions, maybe you should get over it instead of those who are partaking in it.

GardenStateGirlie

12-04-2004, 09:24 PM

yeah, i realized later i should've quoted his post, not yours. :p :wavey: :sorry:

You're forgiven...this time :p

amber

12-04-2004, 09:27 PM

And I could give a rats ass. ;) The point is, this is a place to discuss all things regarding the music. If you don't like the discussions, maybe you should get over it instead of those who are partaking in it.
no way, assmunch, I can post my opinion just as much as anyone else. Since when have you withheld any opinion about what someone was discussing? :laugh: :wavey:

GardenStateGirlie

12-04-2004, 09:27 PM

Hear that? It's the sound of applause for an excellent post. :nod: :D

Thank you, sweetie :xoxo:

amber

12-04-2004, 09:28 PM

You're forgiven...this time :p
Whew! thanks... :)

dissention

12-04-2004, 09:30 PM

no way, assmunch, I can post my opinion just as much as anyone else. Since when have you withheld any opinion about what someone was discussing? :laugh: :wavey:

Nor did I tell you to withold your opinions. ;) I think I explicitly stated that maybe you should be the one to get over it if you don't like the discussion. Has nothing to do with witholding your opinions. Assmunch. :p

amber

12-04-2004, 09:35 PM

Nor did I tell you to withold your opinions. ;) I think I explicitly stated that maybe you should be the one to get over it if you don't like the discussion. Has nothing to do with witholding your opinions. Assmunch. :p
Instead of getting over it, I decided to disagree with it in print. Thanks, though! :D
http://tinypic.com/ubh2c
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

dissention

12-04-2004, 09:36 PM

Instead of getting over it, I decided to disagree with it in print. Thanks, though! :D
http://tinypic.com/ubh2c
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing you're camera works because you'd have a glimpse of a certain finger right now. ;)

Assmunch. :p :laugh:

diamondsnake

12-04-2004, 09:37 PM

Can I just say that I think Stevie's voice rocks more now then it did say back in the 70's. I just love the way TISL opens with that whisky voice. She has a weird smokey sort of voice now and she doesn't try to hide it! Her vocals I think are warmer now, I can't put it into words. But for me at least, her raspy pipes are one of the main things that attracts me to her. And without all the abuse her voice took for decades she would not sound the same today. So... for some people her current voice is a good thing!

And about retiring from the road.... Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The four shows I saw on the SYW tour were the best four nights of my life. I didn't take my eyes off Stevie for one second. I can't wait for a new solo album but also can't wait for a new solo tour. I guess it makes me sort of sad knowing I never got to experience any of the FM and Stevie tours Pre-SYW. I wish I was born in the 60's so I could have seen these tours. I would have "prefered the last generation" as Stevie puts it! Anyways, I just don't want Stevie to stop touring the second I become old enough to go to the shows. That is just plain unfair/unfortunate!

GardenStateGirlie

12-04-2004, 09:37 PM

Instead of getting over it, I decided to disagree with it in print. Thanks, though! :D
http://tinypic.com/ubh2c
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:lol: +10 for that one

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 09:38 PM

dissention

12-04-2004, 09:45 PM

amber

12-04-2004, 09:45 PM

Good thing you're camera works because you'd have a glimpse of a certain finger right now. ;)

Assmunch. :p :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Do you like my new ring?
http://tinypic.com/ubj0j

amber

12-04-2004, 09:47 PM

:lol: +10 for that one
Thanks, Marissa! :laugh: :thumbsup:

dissention

12-04-2004, 09:47 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Do you like my new ring?
http://tinypic.com/ubj0j

Not really, but your finger suits you, Assmunch. :p

amber

12-04-2004, 09:49 PM

Not really, but your finger suits you, Assmunch. :p
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :thumbsup:

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 10:01 PM

Everything you listed is her product, Stew, and we are the consumers. It's not selfish to want her product to sound a certain way, it just may not be practical. If she recorded a rap album and littered it with "fo shizzles," I'm pretty sure you'd want her to get back to her normal music. If she did a show where she sang the telephone book, I'd be willing to bet that you, as the consumer, would be left wanting the Stevie of old.

I don't look at the music as "product" though... I consider it art.
And I wouldn't tell da Vinci to make the Mona Lisa a blond, or Michelangelo to put some trousers on David. :shrug:

I'm perfectly willing to express what I like or dislike about a piece of art, but I'm not comfortable with suggesting that I know better than the artist when it comes to their art.

I don't have to love all of it, in order to respect the artist's need to express themselves in whatever manner they desire.

The packaging, the liner notes, the pricing... that's all part and parcel of the product. The music contained therein is art. At least in my opinion.

dissention

12-04-2004, 10:03 PM

I don't look at the music as "product" though... I consider it art.
And I wouldn't tell da Vinci to make the Mona Lisa a blond, or Michelangelo to put some trousers on David. :shrug:

I'm perfectly willing to express what I like or dislike about a piece of art, but I'm not comfortable with suggesting that I know better than the artist when it comes to their art.

I don't have to love all of it, in order to respect the artist's need to express themselves in whatever manner they desire.

The packaging, the liner notes, the pricing... that's all part and parcel of the product. The music contained therein is art. At least in my opinion.

Right, and when she does sing the phone book someday, let me know how you're feeling. :laugh:

It may be art, but it's still a product. It's manufactured to sell, that's why she prays to the commercial gods.

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 10:20 PM

Right, and when she does sing the phone book someday, let me know how you're feeling. :laugh:

But that was the point I was making... I might not like it personally, but I'd still respect her decision as an artist.

It may be art, but it's still a product. It's manufactured to sell, that's why she prays to the commercial gods.

When I draw or paint, I want as many people to enjoy it and appreciate it as possible... I think that's a normal desire for an artist.
For recording artists, one of the most noticeable signs of people appreciating your art, is how much it sells.

A lot of music is manufactured for absolutely no other reason than to sell.
But for Stevie, I think that she creates for artistic purposes first, and then hopes that it will be appreciated by as large a group of people as possible (ie: sells well).

amber

12-04-2004, 10:21 PM

But that was the point I was making... I might not like it personally, but I'd still respect her decision as an artist.

When I draw or paint, I want as many people to enjoy it and appreciate it as possible... I think that's a normal desire for an artist.
For recording artists, one of the most noticeable signs of people appreciating your art, is how much it sells.

A lot of music is manufactured for absolutely no other reason than to sell.
But for Stevie, I think that she creates for artistic purposes first, and then hopes that it will be appreciated by as large a group of people as possible (ie: sells well).
hear, hear!!!! :nod:

dissention

12-04-2004, 10:25 PM

But that was the point I was making... I might not like it personally, but I'd still respect her decision as an artist.

And the point I was making is that while you may respect their decision as an artist, it does not mean that you don't wish they could have done something else, like the stuff they had done previously. Don't you get it? :shrug: It's got nothing to do with respecting artistic choices, it has to do with likes and dislikes and what you may have wanted to hear. People don't like the new Smile At You because it doesn't stack up to the demo, that doesn't make them selfish. People wanted to hear Sara desperately over the past 15 years and were disappointed that they didn't, that doesn't make them selfish.

When I draw or paint, I want as many people to enjoy it and appreciate it as possible... I think that's a normal desire for an artist.
For recording artists, one of the most noticeable signs of people appreciating your art, is how much it sells.

A lot of music is manufactured for absolutely no other reason than to sell.
But for Stevie, I think that she creates for artistic purposes first, and then hopes that it will be appreciated by as large a group of people as possible (ie: sells well).

And that's where the logic abruptly stops. A truly artistic person doesn't hope for any appreciation, big or small, they do what they need to do and to hell with how others perceive it. I've always thought that Stevie writes for artistic purposes, but when it comes to recording her material, she makes it as commercial as she can to sell records. But we'll just have to disagree. :woohoo:

EDIT: I missed the part about you painting and wanting people to enjoy it, which makes my comment sound bitchier and meaner than it was meant to be. Apologies all around. :wavey:

seeker007nmss

12-04-2004, 10:36 PM

A truly artistic person doesn't hope for any appreciation, big or small, they do what they need to do and to hell with how others perceive it. :wavey:

On the otherside, a truly artistic person still has to eat. :D

dissention

12-04-2004, 10:39 PM

On the otherside, a truly artistic person still has to eat. :D

Of course. Which is why I donate to the food bank every month. :laugh: j/k

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 10:43 PM

And the point I was making is that while you may respect their decision as an artist, it does not mean that you don't wish they could have done something else, like the stuff they had done previously. Don't you get it? :shrug: It's got nothing to do with respecting artistic choices, it has to do with likes and dislikes and what you may have wanted to hear. People don't like the new Smile At You because it doesn't stack up to the demo, that doesn't make them selfish. People wanted to hear Sara desperately over the past 15 years and were disappointed that they didn't, that doesn't make them selfish.

I guess I don't "get" wanting an artist to fit OUR perception of them. Hoping they'll perform a certain song on stage is one thing, but when we say "Stevie shouldn't sing like that," or "Stevie should try something different," for whose benefit is that?
Ours, right? Not Stevie's.
When we desire something for our own benefit, it is a selfish impulse, no?

And that's where the logic abruptly stops. A truly artistic person doesn't hope for any appreciation, big or small, they do what they need to do and to hell with how others perceive it. I've always thought that Stevie writes for artistic purposes, but when it comes to recording her material, she makes it as commercial as she can to sell records. But we'll just have to disagree. :woohoo:

I'm not one of those people who buys into the whole "being truly artistic means you don't give a flying fig whether or not anyone else likes it" mentality. Certainly not when it comes to pop/rock singers... otherwise they never would have bothered signing a record contract in the first place.

The first time you ever show someone something you've painted, or the first time you ever play for someone a song you've written, you've demonstrated a desire for someone else to appreciate what you've created.
And when you release an album, you do not do so just for every last copy of it to sit on record store shelves collecting dust. You do it in the hopes that people will buy and appreciate your art.

seeker007nmss

12-04-2004, 10:44 PM

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 10:44 PM

EDIT: I missed the part about you painting and wanting people to enjoy it, which makes my comment sound bitchier and meaner than it was meant to be. Apologies all around. :wavey:

No worries! :xoxo:

dissention

12-04-2004, 10:53 PM

I guess I don't "get" wanting an artist to fit OUR perception of them. Hoping they'll perform a certain song on stage is one thing, but when we say "Stevie shouldn't sing like that," or "Stevie should try something different," for whose benefit is that?
Ours, right? Not Stevie's.
When we desire something for our own benefit, it is a selfish impulse, no?

Sorry, but no, not when we're the consumer. If I was getting it for nothing, then it would be selfish.

I'm not one of those people who buys into the whole "being truly artistic means you don't give a flying fig whether or not anyone else likes it" mentality. Certainly not when it comes to pop/rock singers... otherwise they never would have bothered signing a record contract in the first place.

I am. If someone wants to do nothing but express their art, they're concerned about their art and not how people view their art. Patti Smith is a true artist, Basquiat was a true artist, Warhol was a true artist, etc. Most rock stars, almost by definition, are in it for the money AND the art. And if getting the cash means being more commercial, most comply.

The first time you ever show someone something you've painted, or the first time you ever play for someone a song you've written, you've demonstrated a desire for someone else to appreciate what you've created.
And when you release an album, you do not do so just for every last copy of it to sit on record store shelves collecting dust. You do it in the hopes that people will buy and appreciate your art.

Not me. I don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of stuff I create (other than the stuff I create for my job because I have to design stuff based on what they tell me). I wish more "artists" were like that, but they aren't, especially rock stars.

Johnny Stew

12-04-2004, 11:04 PM

Sorry, but no, not when we're the consumer. If I was getting it for nothing, then it would be selfish.

I'm a consumer when I buy something functional and utilitarian like a washing machine or a refrigerator.
I buy CDs as an appreciator of music and the artists who create it.

I have to get going, so I'll try to comment on the rest of your post later.

MACFAN

12-05-2004, 11:16 AM

GODDESS6

12-05-2004, 11:36 AM

Call me deluded (shut it, dissention ),
[QUOTE=dissention]Hi, Deluded! :wavey:

sorry, this made me laff out loud this mornin'!!!!!!!!! 2 where my hubby & my son cme from what they were doin' 2 c what was so damn funny~ thanx 4 the laff!!!~

dissention

12-05-2004, 12:28 PM

I dont really feel Stevie has lost much of her range. The vibrato is still there and she still sounds awesome to me. Aging has a lot to do with vocal capabilities as well as abuse does. I just saw Linda Ronsdadt on CBS this morning and she definately does not sing like she used to. I saw Debbie Harry twice recently. On that Diva's show she truly sucked. She was very flat. :sorry: And she appeared, to me anyway, that she was trying way to hard to be the "blondie" of years past and it did not work that well. I also saw her on another TV show and she was horrid. We talk about Stevie's clothes well at least she wears things that fit her instead of squeeziing herself into clothing that is 2 sizes to small for her. Pattie Labelle was always a screamer and I never cared for her, all that throwing herself on the floor and screaming did not do it for me. I saw Pattie in the 80's and was not impressed at all, I was like why don't you pull your hair out of your head and be done with it. I may be the only gay man in the world who does not bow to queen Pattie. :sorry: Ann Wilson has lost range and she sounds a little duller than she used to but still like her alot.

Take all of those singers, stack them next to Stevie, and they've lost such a miniscule amount of their ranges that it's rather negligible.

Everyone loses some of their range eventually, including all the women I mentioned. It's natural. But they haven't lost nearly as much as Stevie because of the simple fact that they sang properly over the years. When it comes to range and vocal stamina, every one of them could blow Stevie away. Stevie used to be able to sustain some pretty high notes, she no longer can. Say what you want about all the women I mentioned, they certainly can and then some, due to the simple fact that they knew how to maintain their voices. :nod:

This is not to say that I dislike Stevie's voice, I like her older voice much better than the high-pitched one she had in the early seventies. I love the strength she had during Street Angel through Enchanted. Her voice would never have been like that if she hadn't f*cked it up so badly over the years. But because she f*cked it up so badly, that's why it continues to change, no matter what she does for vocal exercises or lessons. Eventually, she just will not be able to tour because of it. I've made no secret about the fact that her voice, to me, lost something very magical about it during 2001. I still enjoy it for the most part, but something about it has become monotonous and very tired. That's simply how I feel.

Stevie's current voice is not simply due to aging, it has to do with using it improperly and abusing it for twenty years. One listen to her albums back to back shows you exactly how much damage to did to it; she had a different voice for each one. That is not from simply "aging," not one bit.

dissention

12-05-2004, 12:30 PM

I'm a consumer when I buy something functional and utilitarian like a washing machine or a refrigerator.
I buy CDs as an appreciator of music and the artists who create it.

I have to get going, so I'll try to comment on the rest of your post later.

That's you. :woohoo:

It may be art, but it's still made for money. When it is purchased, it is a product and we are the consumer. We can call it whatever we want, but the simple fact is that it is a product.

ontheEdgeof17

12-05-2004, 12:39 PM

That's you. :woohoo:

It may be art, but it's still made for money. When it is purchased, it is a product and we are the consumer. We can call it whatever we want, but the simple fact is that it is a product.

Agreed. The only reason I buy their material is to support them financially. If I was doing it for the "appreciation of the art", I would just download it and be done. :)

dissention

12-05-2004, 12:42 PM

Agreed. The only reason I buy their material is to support them financially. If I was doing it for the "appreciation of the art", I would just download it and be done. :)

I don't buy it to support them financially because they already have an obscene amount of money and really don't need anymore with people in third world countries starving, I buy it because I don't like to steal by downloading and because I like the pretty artwork and lyric booklets. :laugh:

ontheEdgeof17

12-05-2004, 12:50 PM

and because I like the pretty artwork and lyric booklets. :laugh:

I wish FM had pretty artwork and lyric booklets. They went downhill after Tusk.

dissention

12-05-2004, 12:54 PM

I wish FM had pretty artwork and lyric booklets. They went downhill after Tusk.

:laugh:

I won't argue with that. ;)

I did quite like the cover for Say You Will, though. Why they released the limited edition with that crappy red one is beyond me.

ontheEdgeof17

12-05-2004, 12:59 PM

:laugh:

I won't argue with that. ;)

I did quite like the cover for Say You Will, though. Why they released the limited edition with that crappy red one is beyond me.

I also liked it. I thought it set the mood for the album fairly well. As for the inside, I can only take so many pictures of their facial profiles.....and lay off the hand shots.

dissention

12-05-2004, 01:01 PM

I also liked it. I thought it set the mood for the album fairly well. As for the inside, I can only take so many pictures of their facial profiles.....and lay off the hand shots.

Oh christ, what about the awful stock photos of water and sunshine? That is some fugly shit. The nad shot at the end is so obviously not them that it's laughable. And the scary thing is that none of it gels together. I suspect Chris Nicks got a new software program. ;)

ontheEdgeof17

12-05-2004, 01:12 PM

Oh christ, what about the awful stock photos of water and sunshine? That is some fugly shit. The nad shot at the end is so obviously not them that it's laughable. And the scary thing is that none of it gels together. I suspect Chris Nicks got a new software program. ;)

Those background layouts are just total random. I think they all picked a page number and the first two who smoked their joint first would have the sun/water background on their page. There's no other rhyme and reason to it. :shrug:

dissention

12-05-2004, 01:17 PM

Those background layouts are just total random. I think they all picked a page number and the first two who smoked their joint first would have the sun/water background on their page. There's no other rhyme and reason to it. :shrug:

:laugh:

And the font is terrible, real torture on the eyes. Everything looks the same. The thing I hate most about it, though, is the fold out. How cumbersome is that beast?

amber

12-05-2004, 02:08 PM

:laugh:

And the font is terrible, real torture on the eyes. Everything looks the same. The thing I hate most about it, though, is the fold out. How cumbersome is that beast?
Poor Diss. You need to find some kind of "FM disappoints me constantly" support group... :distress: :(

MACFAN

12-05-2004, 03:19 PM

Or how about a support group for "Fans of monotanous and very tired singers" :laugh:

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 03:32 PM

I don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of stuff I create (other than the stuff I create for my job because I have to design stuff based on what they tell me).

I could point out that Stevie is also employed (as are all musicians signed to a recording contract), and therefore has to be willing to make some concessions to her employers per her job.

Even though you have to design things based on your employers' wishes, hopefully you're still as proud of your output as she is of hers. :nod: :)

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 03:39 PM

It may be art, but it's still made for money. When it is purchased, it is a product and we are the consumer. We can call it whatever we want, but the simple fact is that it is a product.

Agreed. The only reason I buy their material is to support them financially. If I was doing it for the "appreciation of the art", I would just download it and be done. :)

Like I said, I buy the CDs out of an appreciation for the art AND the artist. I appreciate and respect the work they put into it, so I don't mind purchasing it.

Also as I said, I can understand questioning the choices made regarding lousy packaging, crummy quality photos, etc.... because that part IS the "product" side of it.
But I still feel the music contained within is art... whether the artist made a few compromises during the process of creation or not.

amber

12-05-2004, 03:42 PM

Or how about a support group for "Fans of monotanous and very tired singers" :laugh:
NOT.......

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 03:42 PM

Poor Diss. You need to find some kind of "FM disappoints me constantly" support group... :distress: :(

Prince said it best... "Dissy, you're just like my mother -- she's never satisfied." ;) :xoxo:

dissention

12-05-2004, 03:49 PM

Even though you have to design things based on your employers' wishes, hopefully you're still as proud of your output as she is of hers. :nod: :)

I'm proud that I can please clients, but I certainly don't like my designs that require the likes of chintz and maple. :laugh:

dissention

12-05-2004, 03:51 PM

Prince said it best... "Dissy, you're just like my mother -- she's never satisfied." ;) :xoxo:

:laugh:

I'd rather be unsatisfied my whole life than be satisfied by mediocrity. ;) :wavey:

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 04:41 PM

:laugh:

I'd rather be unsatisfied my whole life than be satisfied by mediocrity. ;) :wavey:

See, and I'm no longer interested in being displeased and unhappy with everything like I used to be, because nothing could live up to my expectations.

So I look for beauty everywhere... focus on the things that matter most, and understand that not everything can be the textbook definition of "perfect" or the way I want them to be.
I don't feel that I'm "satisfied by mediocrity," or blind to reality, but rather that I've learned to appreciate the things that bring me joy, without trying to put endless conditions on them.

dissention

12-05-2004, 04:48 PM

takenbythesky

12-05-2004, 04:56 PM

See, and I'm no longer interested in being displeased and unhappy with everything like I used to be, because nothing could live up to my expectations.

So I look for beauty everywhere... focus on the things that matter most, and understand that not everything can be the textbook definition of "perfect" or the way I want them to be.
I don't feel that I'm "satisfied by mediocrity," or blind to reality, but rather that I've learned to appreciate the things that bring me joy, without trying to put endless conditions on them.

That's a great way to look at life!

Similar attitude here. I try to live thinking that there are bad things but also 1,000 beautiful things each and every day. I just try and look for those 1,000 beautiful things(thank you, Annie Lennox). It sure ain't easy sometimes. ;)

-Justin

amber

12-05-2004, 05:01 PM

See, and I'm no longer interested in being displeased and unhappy with everything like I used to be, because nothing could live up to my expectations.

So I look for beauty everywhere... focus on the things that matter most, and understand that not everything can be the textbook definition of "perfect" or the way I want them to be.
I don't feel that I'm "satisfied by mediocrity," or blind to reality, but rather that I've learned to appreciate the things that bring me joy, without trying to put endless conditions on them.
:thumbsup: I try that, too. Also, especially with music, i've known so many music snobs that i hate it. So when i like something, It's very visceral, and i don't usually analyze it or put to many conditions on it. I mean, i hardly can, really... :confused: Gosh, i'm usually just really happy that i have something to be happy about! Cause life ain't no barrel of roses over here, know what i'm sayin, J? :laugh:

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 10:43 PM

You sure are perfect. ;) :xoxo:

Oh, hush, ya little sarcastic brat. :p ;) :laugh:

There's not a single perfect thing about me... I'm just trying to create my own path to a happy life by changing the things I can change in my world, and trying to learn what's worth being disappointed in and what isn't. :)

strandinthewind

12-05-2004, 10:45 PM

Oh, hush, ya little sarcastic brat. :p ;) :laugh:

There's not a single perfect thing about me... I'm just trying to create my own path to a happy life by changing the things I can change in my world, and trying to learn what's worth being disappointed in and what isn't. :)

well . . . maybe one thing ;) :woohoo: :)

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 10:45 PM

That's a great way to look at life!

Similar attitude here. I try to live thinking that there are bad things but also 1,000 beautiful things each and every day. I just try and look for those 1,000 beautiful things(thank you, Annie Lennox). It sure ain't easy sometimes. ;)

It's definitely not always easy, Mr. Adorable ( ;) )... so I shouldn't have worded my first post in a way that sounded as if I'm always successful at it.
But I try.

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 10:51 PM

Cause life ain't no barrel of roses over here, know what i'm sayin, J? :laugh:

I know exactly what you're saying. Which is why, more and more, I see how important it is to have something (or some things) from which you can try to derive pure enjoyment without the usual conditions and potential disappointments.

So when Stevie has some clunkers, I like to focus more on the songs that I truly love, and then on the aspects of the clunkers that I enjoy.

Of course, I couldn't find anything that I enjoyed about that "Lily Girl" song.... :shocked: :laugh:

Johnny Stew

12-05-2004, 10:53 PM

well . . . maybe one thing ;) :woohoo: :)

I know this quote is soooo three years ago... :laugh:... but you're going the right way for a smacked bottom. ;) :p

strandinthewind

12-05-2004, 10:55 PM

I know this quote is soooo three years ago... :laugh:... but you're going the right way for a smacked bottom. ;) :p

well, its about time ya went down that road :laugh: :wavey: :p :wavey: :laugh:

gldstwmn

12-05-2004, 11:22 PM

Of course, I couldn't find anything that I enjoyed about that "Lily Girl" song.... :shocked: :laugh:

Yes but we haven't heard it yet. Her vocal could change the whole thing. That's Stevie.

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 12:42 AM

Yes but we haven't heard it yet. Her vocal could change the whole thing. That's Stevie.

True, very true. And I almost mentioned that.

takenbythesky

12-06-2004, 12:56 AM

Yes but we haven't heard it yet. Her vocal could change the whole thing. That's Stevie.
True, very true. And I almost mentioned that.

I wonder how she delivers the line, "...And then something in the mail comes."

-Justin

amber

12-06-2004, 12:59 AM

I wonder how she delivers the line, "...And then something in the mail comes."

-Justin
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: I *wonder* :rolleyes: too. I've been trying a few things out... :laugh:

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 09:12 AM

I wonder how she delivers the line, "...And then something in the mail comes."

-Justin

I said the same thing anout "I am a cliffdweller from the old school" and she nailed it :shrug: AND - I pretty much despise the expression "old school" as it is WAY WAY WAY overused :laugh:

sparky

12-06-2004, 01:10 PM

I recently saw Whitney Houston on some show and although she sounded great, she most definately lost some of her range.

That would be the crack.

sparky

12-06-2004, 01:13 PM

r The reason Julie Andrews had so many vocal problems is because she didn't song properly for quite a long time.

Julie's voice was damaged by a botched surgery, Homie. Before that, she had lost only a trace of her range - maybe 2 notes.
:nod: :xoxo:

sparky

12-06-2004, 01:26 PM

I don't mind the criticisms and opinions, etc. (and God knows, I LOVE the debates), but I do think sometimes that we... myself included... sound like spoiled little brats.

"Stevie should sing the way I like best."
"Stevie should write her lyrics the way I say she should."
"Stevie should wear the clothes and footwear I think she'd look best in."
"Stevie should only record the songs that I like."

It is pretty self-centered, and we've all been guilty of it from time to time, and to one degree or another.

I often say things like this, and really it is not about ME. I wish for the best for Homegirl, artistically, critically, financially, the whole ball of wax. I don't want her to sing the way I like the best. I wish for her to sing correctly. I wish her lyrics were always in a league that would qualify them for inclusion in a poetry course - on a par with the finest of Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan's work. I want her to wear the most flattering and fab clothes for her figure.
I would love for the songs to be inarguably great - the kind of songs that not even a naysayer non-fan could put down because they are so thoughtfully constructed and artfully produced. Not just songs that the fanatics praise because we are so in love with the mere sound of her voice.
ALAS, these things don't always happen. If they did, everyone would win, me included. I don't consider myself a bitter pill for pointing out the times these things don't happen, because I practically toss a party when they do.
:thumbsup:

sparky

12-06-2004, 01:31 PM

A truly artistic person doesn't hope for any appreciation, big or small, they do what they need to do and to hell with how others perceive it.

Need I remind all of us that Vincent Van Gogh was an abject starving failure while alive ? Of course, he ended up in an institution and cut off his own ear. But he didn't stop painting...kind of like I won't stop posting on a thread I missed when it was boiling up the ledge on the weekend. :laugh:

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 01:34 PM

Need I remind all of us that Vincent Van Gogh was an abject starving failure while alive ? Of course, he ended up in an institution and cut off his own ear. But he didn't stop painting...kind of like I won't stop posting on thread I missed when it was boiling up the ledge on the weekend. :laugh:

But - you are ALWAYS appreciated :xoxo: :angel: :xoxo: :wavey:

sparky

12-06-2004, 01:37 PM

. I may be the only gay man in the world who does not bow to queen Pattie. :sorry: Ann Wilson has lost range and she sounds a little duller than she used to but still like her alot.

Patti LaBelle, the mother of all car alarm vocalists, makes me want to claw my eyes out. So you are not alone on that one.

Ann Wilson lost range ? I beg to differ. I'll give you this - she may have lost two notes. She hits the notes differently, but her voice is 95% of what it ever was. Have you seen her live lately ? At the Greek in Los Angeles in August I noticed she dropped two notes in "Magic Man", and no other noticable key changes or "melody rejiggers" the likes of which Stevie has been doing since the White Wing Dove (Bella Donna) tour.

dissention

12-06-2004, 01:56 PM

dissention

12-06-2004, 02:00 PM

Patti LaBelle, the mother of all car alarm vocalists, makes me want to claw my eyes out. So you are not alone on that one.

Ann Wilson lost range ? I beg to differ. I'll give you this - she may have lost two notes. She hits the notes differently, but her voice is 95% of what it ever was. Have you seen her live lately ? At the Greek in Los Angeles in August I noticed she dropped two notes in "Magic Man", and no other noticable key changes or "melody rejiggers" the likes of which Stevie has been doing since the White Wing Dove (Bella Donna) tour.

When Patti's good, she's good. When she's bad, she's annoying as all hell. But there can be no denying that that voice of hers is a force of nature itself. :laugh:

Ann Wilson has lost next to nothing. I would even venture out and say she's better than she was twenty years ago because her voice has been fine-tuned into quite the powerful instrument.

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 02:05 PM

When Patti's good, she's good. When she's bad, she's annoying as all hell. But there can be no denying that that voice of hers is a force of nature itself. :laugh:

Ann Wilson has lost next to nothing. I would even venture out and say she's better than she was twenty years ago because her voice has been fine-tuned into quite the powerful instrument.

ITA :eek: :laugh:

As for Stevie - yes, she shuffles the meoldy, harmony, etc. But, her voice, to me is still great even though not as great as the 70's. Such is life and I am happy she is still making music of any kind and IMO most of it is still pretty good if not GREAT. I do, however, long for the high high voice.

dissention

12-06-2004, 02:30 PM

ITA :eek: :laugh:

Christ, everyone thinks they're going to catch a venereal disease if they agree with me on anything. :rolleyes: :cool: :laugh:

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 02:32 PM

Christ, everyone thinks they're going to catch a venereal disease if they agree with me on anything. :rolleyes: :cool: :laugh:

LOL - it is just a rarity - that is all :angel:

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 03:27 PM

Ann Wilson lost range ? I beg to differ. I'll give you this - she may have lost two notes. She hits the notes differently, but her voice is 95% of what it ever was. Have you seen her live lately ? At the Greek in Los Angeles in August I noticed she dropped two notes in "Magic Man", and no other noticable key changes or "melody rejiggers" the likes of which Stevie has been doing since the White Wing Dove (Bella Donna) tour.

I'm a pretty big Heart fan... though not quite to the degree of my Mac/Stevie fandom, but Ann has definitely lost more than two notes from her range based on the various concert vids and live CDs I have.

She shies away from the highest parts of "Magic Man," "Crazy On You," "Barracuda" and several others.
Now, don't get me wrong, she can still nail those songs... but she certainly has lost her upper range.

MACFAN

12-06-2004, 04:25 PM

I think when I saw Whitney on television the last time, she was supposed to be just out of rehab. I forget what the show was called. It was about a month or 2 ago.

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 04:33 PM

I often say things like this, and really it is not about ME. I wish for the best for Homegirl, artistically, critically, financially, the whole ball of wax. I don't want her to sing the way I like the best. I wish for her to sing correctly. I wish her lyrics were always in a league that would qualify them for inclusion in a poetry course - on a par with the finest of Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan's work. I want her to wear the most flattering and fab clothes for her figure.
I would love for the songs to be inarguably great - the kind of songs that not even a naysayer non-fan could put down because they are so thoughtfully constructed and artfully produced. Not just songs that the fanatics praise because we are so in love with the mere sound of her voice.
ALAS, these things don't always happen. If they did, everyone would win, me included. I don't consider myself a bitter pill for pointing out the times these things don't happen, because I practically toss a party when they do.
:thumbsup:

Despite the fact that I don't know her, I want what's best for Stevie, too. But I guess I'd just prefer to see that be on her own terms (as much as is realistically possible in the music business).

You know what I'm saying? I think it's easy for us to be "Monday morning quarterbacks," second-guessing the songs she includes on her albums, how she wrote certain lyrics, the way she's singing, and so on.
It almost sounds as if we don't have enough trust in her to make her own decisions.

I'd love for her to have the same level of respect that Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan have (though I'm reminded of the fact that neither of them are universally loved either), but I don't think she ever will.
I think the fact that Stevie was so closely connected to her visual image for so many years, sort of made it impossible for her to ever be THAT respected. So I tend to think that she's as respected now as she's ever going to be.

For a long time, she was as known for her wild hairstyles, eccentric choice in footwear (well, it was eccentric once platform shoes were no longer "hip"), and her endlessly changing stage wardrobe, as she was for her songs.
But, ironically, now that she's toned all that down... maintaining a simpler hairstyle, wearing comfortable footwear that still gives her the height she likes, and donning a more basic stage "uniform" which retains some of the classic "Stevie Nicks Style" but doesn't take it over the top, the hue and cry from the fan base is deafening.

But that whole "rock and roll ballerina" thing made her seem fluffy, and the metaphysical and surreal themes that she peppers her songs with makes her come across to many people as being "hippy-dippy."

And, yet, those are some of the important aspects of what made and makes Stevie so unique, and by dropping them completely, she'd be losing some of her weird "Stevie" appeal... so it's a double-edged sword.
Had she never adopted them (or dropped them much earlier in her career), she may be more respected today, like Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan. But if she had never had those aspects about her, then she may not have ever acheived the level of recognition she has these days.

Anyway, I'm babbling. All I'm trying to say is that I understand wanting her to be successful and respected, and I also understand that we're never going to just flat-out love every single thing she does... I just don't understand the opinion we often convey that WE somehow know better than Stevie does when it comes to HER life and career.
Should she not sing the way SHE wants to sing? Should she not dress the way SHE wants to dress? Should she not write the way SHE wants to write? (These are rhetorical questions -- not directed as a challenge or criticism to anyone here.)

Like I said, when we try to change her, it comes off... to me at least... as sounding as if it's more for our own benefit than for hers.

BTFLCHLD

12-06-2004, 06:08 PM

Here is the link to check for SOUNDSTAGE-CHRIS ISAAK air dates

http://www.pbs.org/wttw/soundstage/airdate.htm

HDREADY is the company that produces the Soundstage DVDs
http://www.hdready.com/

In checking their site for an online purchase, they are still showing the BOSTON/DESTRULES combo for purchase. Perhaps they will post the ISAAK show soon. Here are the contact numbers for ordering:

866.383.4643
630.443.3000

FYI - I pre-ordered BOSTON/DESTRULES from HDREADY without any issues.

Serrart

12-06-2004, 06:13 PM

First of all, I think this is great thread, thanks to all.
All I can say is that when I look at Stevie I see her talent, the path she's made till now, in her life and art.

The voice she has now (that I find breathtaking, I get from it many more emotions than from her seventies voice :nod: ) comes from a series of choices, good and bad, that made her the person and the artist she is, an absolutely amazing one, IMO.

Obviously, I would love to see her win tons of Grammies, sell millions of albums more, and to be elected best artist from every possible league of snob critics, but i wouldn't worry too much if it won't happen. What I care more about, is that she still loves writing and performing, that after years of great pain, she can create masterpieces like TISL and Illume or make of Beautiful Child live such a prodigy.

Not that I don't have my opinions on her clothes or shoes but Stevie Nicks' ways of being an artist are very personal, inspiring and unique, and it wouldn't change anything for me, if she would walk through them in black dresses and Frankenboks, jeans and boots, or Armani suits. JMHO. :)

Romy

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 07:31 PM

sparky

12-06-2004, 07:34 PM

Now, don't get me wrong, she can still nail those songs... but she certainly has lost her upper range.

I would consider saying "losing her upper range" means losing an octave - or at least 4-6 notes of an octave. You must be hearing a completely different thing than me. Stevie has lost the better part of an octave, if not an entire octave. Ann has lost a few notes, and that's it. Certain shows I have seen, she hits every single note, and isn't shifting down the key two steps. Maybe I am a music geek for knowing this, but that's what my ears tell me. Anyone with a music degree want to weigh in on this one ?

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 07:41 PM

I would consider saying "losing her upper range" means losing an octave - or at least 4-6 notes of an octave. You must be hearing a completely different thing than me. Stevie has lost the better part of an octave, if not an entire octave. Ann has lost a few notes, and that's it. Certain shows I have seen, she hits every single note, and isn't shifting down the key two steps. Maybe I am a music geek for knowing this, but that's what my ears tell me. Anyone with a music degree want to weigh in on this one ?

Well, I studied voice for a long time. To me, it sounds like Ann wisely realizes she is older and to hit every single high and super high note. For her age, considering that she lived in the hard partying 70's, and thast she was overweight and has lost a bunch (that can affect the voice - mostly in stamina) - her voice defies all norms and is clearly exceptional, esp. considering she still hits 99% of the high and really high notes.

A good example of someone whose voice lost the entire upper range is La Streisand. Take the song "People." When she goes to hit that last "WOOOOORRRRHHHOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDDDD" It used to be an octave higher. Now, she sounds like she is singing in the key of "Ole Man River" :laugh:

Serrart

12-06-2004, 08:29 PM

Thank you for that, Romy. I really admire those who can say in just a few paragraphs or sentences, what it takes me page after page of dissertation to only begin to convey. :o

Brevity is not one of my stronger suits. :o

Thank you Johnny, even if my brevity is more a necessity than a quality, it's supposed to make me avoid as many errors in English as I can, and doesn't even work that well, unfortunately! :o

By the way, for me a great thing on the Ledge it's to read posts from people who are able to express in such a honest and witty way their opinions, as you and many others do. :thumbsup:

Romy

Serrart

12-06-2004, 08:42 PM

A good example of someone whose voice lost the entire upper range is La Streisand. Take the song "People." When she goes to hit that last "WOOOOORRRRHHHOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDDDD" It used to be an octave higher. Now, she sounds like she is singing in the key of "Ole Man River" :laugh:

Really? The last time I listened to her was 10 years ago in a concert aired on TV, and I didn't notice; now I'm curious, I should still have it somewhere. It wasn't a bad show: I remember vividly Robert Redford images from The Way We Were :D

Romy

dissention

12-06-2004, 08:49 PM

I'm a pretty big Heart fan... though not quite to the degree of my Mac/Stevie fandom, but Ann has definitely lost more than two notes from her range based on the various concert vids and live CDs I have.

She shies away from the highest parts of "Magic Man," "Crazy On You," "Barracuda" and several others.
Now, don't get me wrong, she can still nail those songs... but she certainly has lost her upper range.

Darling, would you even know a b-flat from an f-sharp? Miss Wilson has lost a few notes here and there, nothing more and nothing less. She's maintained her voice in a manner that would shock most singers.

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 08:51 PM

Really? The last time I listened to her was 10 years ago in a concert aired on TV, and I didn't notice; now I'm curious, I should still have it somewhere. It wasn't a bad show: I remember vividly Robert Redford images from The Way We Were :D

Romy

I just remember being shocked at how low it was compared to 20 years ago. The same cannot be said for the Wilson girl, who sings in the same range as she did then :cool:

sparky

12-06-2004, 09:51 PM

Well, I studied voice for a long time. To me, it sounds like Ann wisely realizes she is older and to hit every single high and super high note. For her age, considering that she lived in the hard partying 70's, and thast she was overweight and has lost a bunch (that can affect the voice - mostly in stamina) - her voice defies all norms and is clearly exceptional, esp. considering she still hits 99% of the high and really high notes.

Indeed she does. It was driving me nuts, so I got out my guitar and a recent live Heart recording from the last 6 months. They do "What About Love". If anyone is familiar with the song, in the last few moments, Miss Wilson does this little trill and goes into her head voice. She nails a high C in this little segment more than once. Still does it. In "Black on Black", the chorus melody is alternating between E, F#, and G. She even bitch slaps an A and a B a few times just for fun. That is one half step below high C, which is about the highest she ever sang on record. In that song, she does this in the chorus. It is repeated about five times throughout the song. They alternate songs on tour, so she may not sing it every night. Has she lost her upper range ? Methinks not.

dissention

12-06-2004, 10:02 PM

Indeed she does. It was driving me nuts, so I got out my guitar and a recent live Heart recording from the last 6 months. They do "What About Love". If anyone is familiar with the song, in the last few moments, Miss Wilson does this little trill and goes into her head voice. She nails a high C in this little segment more than once. Still does it. In "Black on Black", the chorus melody is alternating between E, F#, and G. She even bitch slaps an A and a B a few times just for fun. That is one half step below high C, which is about the highest she ever sang on record. In that song, she does this in the chorus. It is repeated about five times throughout the song. They alternate songs on tour, so she may not sing it every night. Has she lost her upper range ? Methinks not.

Fabulous example, darling. Black On Black is one of her best vocals, her voice is sterling on that track.

strandinthewind

12-06-2004, 10:47 PM

Indeed she does. It was driving me nuts, so I got out my guitar and a recent live Heart recording from the last 6 months. They do "What About Love". If anyone is familiar with the song, in the last few moments, Miss Wilson does this little trill and goes into her head voice. She nails a high C in this little segment more than once. Still does it. In "Black on Black", the chorus melody is alternating between E, F#, and G. She even bitch slaps an A and a B a few times just for fun. That is one half step below high C, which is about the highest she ever sang on record. In that song, she does this in the chorus. It is repeated about five times throughout the song. They alternate songs on tour, so she may not sing it every night. Has she lost her upper range ? Methinks not.

Yep - and she stays in that range and BELTS from the diaphram. She reallty is a case study on a God given talent. I mean she is in her 50's (I think) and she certainly has lived the rock and roll life (at least in the beginning). I am in NOTHING but AWE of her voice. SHEEBUS!!!!!!

ricohv

12-06-2004, 11:02 PM

I really know nothing technically about music (certainly not a B sharp or an F flat or whatever) but I know this: Ann Wilson can belt it out, she can be a real rock n roller and even kind of a blues mama. I don't know about her vocal training, but her and her sister can play about any instrument and play it well. She seems to me like she'd be one of these people who had operatic training but then went into rock (a la Pat Benatar). I seem to remember always hearing that Pat had an 8 octave range (?) or whatever Mariah Carey has (but so what-just cuz you've got it doesn't mean you should cover the whole range in every single song!) but to me Ann seemed to have the same range as Pat (maybe?) but could be a way stronger powerhouse.
Going back in the threads a bit about wanting Stevie to get Grammies and have more respect...I think in that regard she has "came out the other end" of her image/vocal disrespect. She'd have to have came into prominence 10 years earlier to be considered in the Mitchell/Dylan league. And sometimes she almost reaches that level of respect IMO. I think the Dance was when things started to turn around. All of a sudden she was everywhere again (and everyone loves a successful comeback-that seems to be when they really start getting respected). With up n comers mentioning her as an influence and covering her songs, and then following up the Dance with TISL, which to my eyes got the best solo reviews of her career, and designers mentioning her flatteringly and paying homage to her with their lines-she's done great. Sure TISL din't sell like Bella Donna-but has Joni Mitchell ever had an album that sold like Bella Donna? Has Joni had a top 5 album in the last 20 years or been on a tour that grossed #3 in tour business for the year? So Stevie, although not getting the hit singles we want to see in the Billboard Hot 100 (and never will again...I mean really) is doing still better than any of her contemporaries (check the sales figures of Heart's or Pat Benatar's albums-yeah, betcha didn't even know Pat still cranks out an album every couple years! But they flop...bigtime!).

Somajoseph

12-06-2004, 11:09 PM

It's nice to see that Ann Wilson has alot of fans here on The Ledge. Heart was the first live show I ever saw, way back in 1978. They gave a very rousing performance, and I loved Ann's vocals and Nancy's guitar playing. It was great to see them right up front..they both had, and have a very powerful stage presence.
And as much as I love Stevie & Christine, the Wilson sisters seem to have the edge on them live. That's not a put down of Stevie or Christine in any way, alot of it has to do with the differences in their writing.
Stevie's power is hard to pinpoint on just one thing. Her voice, though not as capable of singing those high notes, is in fact, probably alot more expressive. I remember reading a review of Tusk when it came out and the reviewer called Stevie's voice a fascinating instrument, and I couldnt agree more.

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 11:22 PM

I would consider saying "losing her upper range" means losing an octave - or at least 4-6 notes of an octave. You must be hearing a completely different thing than me. Stevie has lost the better part of an octave, if not an entire octave. Ann has lost a few notes, and that's it. Certain shows I have seen, she hits every single note, and isn't shifting down the key two steps. Maybe I am a music geek for knowing this, but that's what my ears tell me. Anyone with a music degree want to weigh in on this one ?

Darling, would you even know a b-flat from an f-sharp? Miss Wilson has lost a few notes here and there, nothing more and nothing less. She's maintained her voice in a manner that would shock most singers.

A b-flat? An f-sharp? What is this strange language in which you're speaking? I'm not edumacated enough to understand. :p

I'm not saying Ann Wilson sounds like Barry White these days... which is sure what you guys make it seem like I said. I'm just saying that I do believe she's lost more than just two notes from her register.

There are parts in the various songs that I mentioned in which she shies away from the highest of the high notes (and a couple of times I noticed that Nancy was actually singing a part higher than Ann) or sounds a little thin on them.
That's not to say that she doesn't still have an AMAZING range... just that I do believe she has lost more than two notes from the upper end of it.

But, again, I'm too dumb to know otherwise, so.... ;)

sparky

12-06-2004, 11:25 PM

It almost sounds as if we don't have enough trust in her to make her own decisions.

Frankly, I don't. The lyrics to Silver Girl ? The fact that she even recorded Everyday ? Granted, that was probably a business deal, but that song was a world class stinker from the word go. I shan't go on.

I'd love for her to have the same level of respect that Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan have (though I'm reminded of the fact that neither of them are universally loved either), but I don't think she ever will.

Well, she ain't dead yet. But she isn't likely to get there copping lines from a dead Englishman ("It was the best of times, it was the worst of times") or using phrases that would get a student flunked out of a high school English course("Oooh it's just like a river, oooh it's never ending"). She's got it in her. She just doesn't edit herself. And she ought to use a thesaurus. Or at least a rhyming dictionary.

I think the fact that Stevie was so closely connected to her visual image for so many years, sort of made it impossible for her to ever be THAT respected. So I tend to think that she's as respected now as she's ever going to be.

That held water in her early career, when critics who were either chauvinist men or ugly women hated her for purely personal reasons. If the writing is there - respect happens. The really great songs get covered, which I have noted before, and almost everyone scoffs at. The rest get ignored by most all but us, the fanatics. Again, striking words and interesting music could get her that level of respect.

But, ironically, now that she's toned all that down... maintaining a simpler hairstyle, wearing comfortable footwear that still gives her the height she likes, and donning a more basic stage "uniform" which retains some of the classic "Stevie Nicks Style" but doesn't take it over the top, the hue and cry from the fan base is deafening.

Makes you wonder who the shallow ones are, huh ? The fans or the critics ?

That whole "rock and roll ballerina" thing made her seem fluffy, and the metaphysical and surreal themes that she peppers her songs with makes her come across to many people as being "hippy-dippy."

People never called Kate Bush dippy, or Lorenna McKennitt, and even Tori Amos doesn't get that. The difference perhaps being a higher degree of authentic literary references, more sophisticated chord choices, and the fact that they don't use words like WELL for emotional emphasis. Or refer to love or pain being like a river.

:lol:

Had she never adopted them (or dropped them much earlier in her career), she may be more respected today, like Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan. But if she had never had those aspects about her, then she may not have never acheived the level of recognition she has these days.

Well, Joni dressed like a flower child and wrote about clouds and butterflies(in a few songs anyways). Dylan looked like he rolled out of a dumpster and has always had a voice like a frog. The difference is the material. They explored, and did things that were wildly unpopular. I think they are both authentic "artists" with little interest in the mainstream. The focus of both these artists work was always much larger than themselves. The entire range of human experience and different characters became their canvases. Therefore, the scope of their work has a different kind of resonance. It speaks about the whole culture, and truly about the most important historical movements, both political and personal, of the late 20th century. Stevie never set out to do that. Her work, ulitmately, is always really about herself, when you get down to it. Moving, frequently. Always about her, yup. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it keeps her way out of their league.

I just don't understand the opinion we often convey that WE somehow know better than Stevie does when it comes to HER life and career.

Oh, don't get me started. Everyday and Silver Girl are the tip of the iceberg. As a matter of fact, I do think I sometimes know better than her how to run her career. A lot of people do. That's why artists have managers and agents.
As far as her life goes...well, the coke and Klonopin would both be potshots, wouldn't they ? I won't take that one another step.

ricohv

12-06-2004, 11:34 PM

Sparky Sparky Sparky-
Stevie is our friend! Now open your heart and let all that blackness out :nod:

Johnny Stew

12-06-2004, 11:57 PM

Frankly, I don't. The lyrics to Silver Girl ? The fact that she even recorded Everyday ? Granted, that was probably a business deal, but that song was a world class stinker from the word go. I shan't go on.

She says she heard "Every Day" on a demo tape and loved it, and wanted to record it (which also kicked off her collaboration with John Shanks).
Meanwhile "Silver Girl" was written as a sweet gesture for a cherished friend.

But God forbid the woman record a song SHE likes or that has personal meaning to HER, when a few snotty fans might not like it, and will wring their hands and gnash their teeth over it. ;) (That was meant much more light-heartedly than it sounded)

And, hey, count your blessings that the woman with absolutely no ability to properly choose her own material, hasn't recorded a Diane Warren song.
Yet. ;)

And she ought to use a thesaurus. Or at least a rhyming dictionary.

And be exactly like every. other. songwriter. out. there.

People never called Kate Bush dippy, or Lorenna McKennitt, and even Tori Amos doesn't get that.

Well, Joni dressed like a flower child and wrote about clouds and butterflies(in a few songs anyways). Dylan looked like he rolled out of a dumpster and has always had a voice like a frog. The difference is the material. They explored, and did things that were wildly unpopular. I think they are both authentic "artists" with little interest in the mainstream.

Yet more references to all of the songwriters and performers Stevie isn't, but apparently should strive to be (you know, because we said so). Being Stevie Nicks just isn't good enough anymore. :nod:

As a matter of fact, I do think I sometimes know better than her how to run her career. A lot of people do. That's why artists have managers and agents.

Yes, to make them look, dress, sound and act just like eeeeeeverybody else.
It's getting so that folks around here don't even want Stevie to dress herself in the morning. Way to promote individuality! ;)

As far as her life goes...well, the coke and Klonopin would both be potshots, wouldn't they ? I won't take that one another step.

Well, since I hear plenty of fans talk about their own dalliances with various illegal and ill-advised substances, then I'd say that, yes, bringing up her cocaine and Klonopin abuse would probably be a potshot.

My tone for this entire post is a lot more lighthearted than I'm sure it came out, but I do really wonder what the deep-seated need to change Stevie is all about. Why it's felt that what SHE is, just simply isn't good enough, and why she constantly must be compared to every Tom, Dick & Debbie Harry in the business, rather than just allowing her to be herself... imperfections and all.

I guess I just don't sit around listening to Paul McCartney albums and wishing he was more like John Lennon. Or listening to Tony Bennett and wishing he was more like Frank Sinatra.
I listen to an artist for who they are, and for what makes them unique... both good and bad.
I don't waste my time thinking about all the other people they should be more like.

sparky

12-07-2004, 12:50 AM

Sparky Sparky Sparky-
Stevie is our friend! Now open your heart and let all that blackness out :nod:

There is little blackness in my heart. Only love and light.
:xoxo:

sparky

12-07-2004, 01:17 AM

She says she heard "Every Day" on a demo tape and loved it, and wanted to record it (which also kicked off her collaboration with John Shanks).
Meanwhile "Silver Girl" was written as a sweet gesture for a cherished friend.

Everyone knows both of those stories. Everyone here anyway.
Doesn't mean both songs aren't beneath her, even if she wrote one of them.
"Lily Girl" might be about Sharon Celani, for all we know.

:lol:

But God forbid the woman record a song SHE likes or that has personal meaning to HER, when a few snotty fans might not like it, and will wring their hands and gnash their teeth over it. ;)

Great writing is all about rewriting and editing. My hands are sore from the wringing....so sore.

And, hey, count your blessings that the woman with absolutely no ability to properly choose her own material, hasn't recorded a Diane Warren song.
Yet. ;)

I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED DIANE WARREN TO BRET MICHAELS.

And be exactly like every. other. songwriter. out. there

Lord have mercy. Finding a new twist on expressing a tired sentiment doesn't have to SOUND contrived. Using new words sure beats sounding pedestrian.
Is there anyone who doesn't think the phrase "like a thief in the night" couldn't be improved upon ?

Yet more references to all of the songwriters and performers Stevie isn't, but apparently should strive to be (you know, because we said so). Being Stevie Nicks just isn't good enough anymore.

You posit that she has not been taken seriously because of the airy fairy imagery in her writing and style of dress. I brought up three other female artists awash in fairy imagery in both images and subject matter who for some reason HAVEN'T been pinned with the tag of "airhead fairy" by music critics. I am simply responding to your commentary.

Yes, to make them look, dress, sound and act just like eeeeeeverybody else.
It's getting so that folks around here don't even want Stevie to dress herself in the morning. Way to promote individuality! ;)

I don't suggest someone try to turn her into Jessica Simpson. Good managers, agents, and producers are honest with artists and tell them if they are going to humiliate themselves or make terrible decisions. Like, "Don't record that damned John Shanks song ! "

Well, since I hear plenty of fans talk about their own dalliances with various illegal and ill-advised substances, then I'd say that, yes, bringing up her cocaine and Klonopin abuse would probably be a potshot.

Dude. I was kidding.

I do really wonder what the deep-seated need to change Stevie is all about. Why it's felt that what SHE is, just simply isn't good enough, and why she constantly must be compared to every Tom, Dick & Debbie Harry in the business, rather than just allowing her to be herself... imperfections and all.

We want people we like and love to be all they can be. When we feel they aren't living up to their potential - we pipe up. At least I do.

I guess I just don't sit around listening to Paul McCartney albums and wishing he was more like John Lennon. Or listening to Tony Bennett and wishing he was more like Frank Sinatra.
I listen to an artist for who they are, and for what makes them unique... both good and bad.
I don't waste my time thinking about all the other people they should be more like.

I don't think Stevie should be "like" anyone else. Actually, I wish she would grow into her potential. At times, I wish she had made career decisions and decisions as an artist that would have her career and output be in a different stratosphere. When anyone questions why she isn't regarded as one of the "great" songwriters, it is extremely clear to me why she isn't. I have a very pragmatic view of her and her place in history. And of her place in my own world. There is really no difference to me in criticizing her or praising her. There are a lot of things about her I love. And a lot of things that drive me completely nuts. Obviously she is a fascinating enough subject that I never tire of doing either. And there will always be people who think that I am mean or angry because I can speak of my disappointments in her in a critical and detached fashion.
:wavey:

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 01:53 AM

Great writing is all about rewriting and editing. My hands are sore from the wringing....so sore.

Lord have mercy. Finding a new twist on expressing a tired sentiment doesn't have to SOUND contrived. Using new words sure beats sounding pedestrian.
Is there anyone who doesn't think the phrase "like a thief in the night" couldn't be improved upon ?

We want people we like and love to be all they can be. When we feel they aren't living up to their potential - we pipe up. At least I do.

When anyone questions why she isn't regarded as one of the "great" songwriters, it is extremely clear to me why she isn't. I have a very pragmatic view of her and her place in history. And of her place in my own world. There is really no difference to me in criticizing her or praising her. There are a lot of things about her I love. And a lot of things that drive me completely nuts. Obviously she is a fascinating enough subject that I never tire of doing either. And there will always be people who think that I am mean or angry because I can speak of my disappointments in her in a critical and detached fashion.
:wavey:

No one thinks you're mean or angry for having your opinion... at least I don't... but do you at least see my point? Stevie seems to be a person who wears her heart on her sleeve, and seems to make decisions about her material and her career more from the heart than from what would seem logical or sensible to other people.

It's something I've always respected about her in this world where being cold and calculating seem to reign supreme.

There might be things about her that exasperate me, and yet, I wouldn't change them for the world... because, for me at least, it's all part of what makes Stevie and her music so endlessly fascinating.

I listen to songwriters who are more clever in their phrasing. I listen to singers who have far more impressive ranges. I watch performers who are infinitely more animated. And, yet, few of them move me the way Stevie moves me, because very few of them seem to be as deeply linked to their output, emotionally, as Stevie does.

Let me explain... if she writes a lyric a certain way on first impulse, then it's pure and unadulterated. If she then works and re-works it to make it more clever, or to fit the "rules of good writing," then it becomes once or twice removed from the sentiment she originally wrote straight from her heart and personality. It becomes more about impressing someone, silencing critics, or following rules, and less about how she felt in her heart at that very moment in time.

In a literal way, "great writing is about editing and re-editing"... but then it becomes more about impulses of the brain telling us what "great writing" is, instead of a visceral thing coming straight from the heart (pardon the cliché).

"The mediator between head and hands must be the heart."

takenbythesky

12-07-2004, 02:10 AM

No one thinks you're mean or angry for having your opinion... at least I don't... but do you at least see my point? Stevie seems to be a person who wears her heart on her sleeve, and seems to make decisions about her material and her career more from the heart than from what would seem logical or sensible to other people.

It's something I've always respected about her in this world where being cold and calculating seem to reign supreme.

There might be things about her that exasperate me, and yet, I wouldn't change them for the world... because, for me at least, it's all part of what makes Stevie and her music so endlessly fascinating.

I listen to songwriters who are more clever in their phrasing. I listen to singers who have far more impressive ranges. I watch performers who are infinitely more animated. And, yet, few of them move me the way Stevie moves me, because very few of them seem to be as deeply linked to their output, emotionally, as Stevie does.

And, hey, count your blessings that the woman with absolutely no ability to properly choose her own material, hasn't recorded a Diane Warren song.
AMEN! Get out of my head, Mr. Stew, you're frightening me! :lol:

sparky

12-07-2004, 03:08 AM

It's something I've always respected about her in this world where being cold and calculating seem to reign supreme.

I think it's lazy.

:shrug:

Let me explain... if she writes a lyric a certain way on first impulse, then it's pure and unadulterated. If she then works and re-works it to make it more clever, or to fit the "rules of good writing," then it becomes once or twice removed from the sentiment she originally wrote straight from her heart and personality. It becomes more about impressing someone, silencing critics, or following rules, and less about how she felt in her heart at that very moment in time.

There is something to be said for first drafts. And honesty. But Stevie herself has said she kept first vocal takes because of superstition or the "magic" of a first take, later to realize it was a mistake to not do it over. This 'pure unadulterated flow' has also given us ridiculous river metaphors and the like. Rewriting lyrics isn't about being clever, it is about capturing an emotion in beautiful, expressive language. It's not about rules, it is about art. Poetry isn't automatic. Poetry is hard work. Anyone can say "I have always been alone. I haven't been in love." Yet Joni Mitchell, for example, feeling this, sings :

"Like Icarus ascending
On beautiful foolish arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm
Maybe I've never really loved
I guess that is the truth
I've spent my whole life in clouds
At icy altitudes
And looking down on everything
I crashed into his arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm".

I bet my mortgage that lyric was work. She didn't just burp it up. It's not less beautiful because she may have rewritten it 40 times.

And it beats the hell out of Stevie feeling lonely writing this, which was probably first draft :

"So what is this...when you can
What is this...what about me
What is this...(What is this)
I understand...(I understand)
What is this...I'm lonely....I'm lonely...(I'm lonely)

Words that have been said 40,000 times.

First draft or rewrite. You decide. I could throw 400 examples of poetic original imagery out here, and I think you'd believe Stevie is somehow more pure or uncompromising for holding onto unoriginal phrases instead of working harder and capturing something new and unique to express her own unique experiences and make her work richer and more resonant. That Mitchell snippet could have an essay written about it. Just on the Icarus and Amelia references alone. I believe Stevie's writing could have this depth (it sometimes used to) and she just doesn't bother. Without her voice, so many of her lyrics are meaningless. And it annoys the hell out of me. Me and my great expectations. (Uh-oh, now I'M copping Dickens)

"The mediator between head and hands must be the heart."

Indeed. The mediator is the editor.

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 03:23 AM

I'm sorry, but as beautiful and eloquent as that particular Joni Mitchell lyric is... and its beauty is undeniable... to me it feels aloof.
Where's the warmth to match the beauty?

You're always going to see it your way, and I'm always going to see it mine.
I still say that Stevie writing her lyrics any differently, would change what makes STEVIE who she is, and we might as well just listen to someone else.

"What a perfect rose... but, oh, if only its petals were larger and its color more vivid and its thorns less jagged...."

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 03:33 AM

Indeed. The mediator is the editor.

I think you missed the point of that quote (from Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis').
The heart cannot be the editor... the "heart" is your emotional core. The brain is the editor, because it protects us from revealing the flaws and vulnerabilities of our emotions, by trying to make things more palatable to those around us.
But always allowing the brain to edit what your heart is feeling is why so few people are capable of truly communicating their deepest emotions.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 06:33 AM

Livia

12-07-2004, 10:50 AM

Indeed she does. It was driving me nuts, so I got out my guitar and a recent live Heart recording from the last 6 months. They do "What About Love". If anyone is familiar with the song, in the last few moments, Miss Wilson does this little trill and goes into her head voice. She nails a high C in this little segment more than once. Still does it. In "Black on Black", the chorus melody is alternating between E, F#, and G. She even bitch slaps an A and a B a few times just for fun. That is one half step below high C, which is about the highest she ever sang on record. In that song, she does this in the chorus. It is repeated about five times throughout the song. They alternate songs on tour, so she may not sing it every night. Has she lost her upper range ? Methinks not.

LOL - "bitch slaps an A and a B..." Black on Black is NOT an easy song to sing! When I saw Heart in September, I was floored! I don't think Ms. Wilson ever smoked cigs either, did she? To me, her voice hasn't changed one bit since the 70's.

ontheEdgeof17

12-07-2004, 10:59 AM

BTW - I LOVE Silver Girl and Everyday :eek: :laugh: :wavey:

As do I. :shrug: I can see why ppl dislike Silver Girl. It's not my favorite song, but it's not bad, either. Everyday, though? What's so bad about it. I think it's fabulous. The lyrics are touching. The music is smooth. It actually has a climax (unlike Sara hehe). I just don't get the hate. :o

sparky

12-07-2004, 11:13 AM

I'm sorry, but as beautiful and eloquent as that particular Joni Mitchell lyric is... and its beauty is undeniable... to me it feels aloof.
Where's the warmth to match the beauty?

BINGO. The song isn't about warmth. See, it worked.
:p

You're always going to see it your way, and I'm always going to see it mine.
I still say that Stevie writing her lyrics any differently, would change what makes STEVIE who she is, and we might as well just listen to someone else.

Oh, I know. I'll call some of it great, and some of it wretched. And you'll never understand why I think any of it fails. It's all good.
I will submit as well that she does sometimes write differently. She can and has written thoughtfully and carefully. When she does, it shows. I take great interest in why it works when it does. At least as much as in the failures.

"What a perfect rose... but, oh, if only its petals were larger and its color more vivid and its thorns less jagged...."

Landslide and Storms are two perfect roses. I am commenting on the Tansy Ragwort that has been allowed to grow around them.
:xoxo:

sparky

12-07-2004, 11:21 AM

I think you missed the point of that quote (from Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis').
The heart cannot be the editor... the "heart" is your emotional core. The brain is the editor, because it protects us from revealing the flaws and vulnerabilities of our emotions, by trying to make things more palatable to those around us.
But always allowing the brain to edit what your heart is feeling is why so few people are capable of truly communicating their deepest emotions.

Oh, I got the quote all right, I just don't agree with it when it comes to art. If the brain helps to phrase what the heart is feeling into cogent, precisely constructed thoughts, often the sentiment is expressed with more clarity and power. We're back to the first draft argument.
:lol:
If our brain didn't edit those emotions at all, feelings of anger and outrage would simply become violence. I don't think consideration is a contrivance when it comes to communicating with words.

I always bought that line about art being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. I think we're always going to disagree on this one. :nod:

sparky

12-07-2004, 11:23 AM

LOL - "bitch slaps an A and a B..." Black on Black is NOT an easy song to sing! When I saw Heart in September, I was floored! I don't think Ms. Wilson ever smoked cigs either, did she? To me, her voice hasn't changed one bit since the 70's.

Cigarettes, nope. Marijuana, at times.

SuzeQuze

12-07-2004, 12:53 PM

...Dylan looked like he rolled out of a dumpster and has always had a voice like a frog...

Oh man, this is the funniest freaking thing I've heard today!!!
:laugh: :lol: :lol: :lol: :laugh:

dissention

12-07-2004, 01:55 PM

Frankly, I don't. The lyrics to Silver Girl ? The fact that she even recorded Everyday ? Granted, that was probably a business deal, but that song was a world class stinker from the word go. I shan't go on.

Well, she ain't dead yet. But she isn't likely to get there copping lines from a dead Englishman ("It was the best of times, it was the worst of times") or using phrases that would get a student flunked out of a high school English course("Oooh it's just like a river, oooh it's never ending"). She's got it in her. She just doesn't edit herself. And she ought to use a thesaurus. Or at least a rhyming dictionary.

That held water in her early career, when critics who were either chauvinist men or ugly women hated her for purely personal reasons. If the writing is there - respect happens. The really great songs get covered, which I have noted before, and almost everyone scoffs at. The rest get ignored by most all but us, the fanatics. Again, striking words and interesting music could get her that level of respect.

Makes you wonder who the shallow ones are, huh ? The fans or the critics ?

People never called Kate Bush dippy, or Lorenna McKennitt, and even Tori Amos doesn't get that. The difference perhaps being a higher degree of authentic literary references, more sophisticated chord choices, and the fact that they don't use words like WELL for emotional emphasis. Or refer to love or pain being like a river.

:lol:

Well, Joni dressed like a flower child and wrote about clouds and butterflies(in a few songs anyways). Dylan looked like he rolled out of a dumpster and has always had a voice like a frog. The difference is the material. They explored, and did things that were wildly unpopular. I think they are both authentic "artists" with little interest in the mainstream. The focus of both these artists work was always much larger than themselves. The entire range of human experience and different characters became their canvases. Therefore, the scope of their work has a different kind of resonance. It speaks about the whole culture, and truly about the most important historical movements, both political and personal, of the late 20th century. Stevie never set out to do that. Her work, ulitmately, is always really about herself, when you get down to it. Moving, frequently. Always about her, yup. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it keeps her way out of their league.

Oh, don't get me started. Everyday and Silver Girl are the tip of the iceberg. As a matter of fact, I do think I sometimes know better than her how to run her career. A lot of people do. That's why artists have managers and agents.
As far as her life goes...well, the coke and Klonopin would both be potshots, wouldn't they ? I won't take that one another step.

Hotshit! Will you breed, already? :p :laugh:

Who loves ya, babe! :xoxo:

dissention

12-07-2004, 01:59 PM

I guess I just don't sit around listening to Paul McCartney albums and wishing he was more like John Lennon. Or listening to Tony Bennett and wishing he was more like Frank Sinatra.
I listen to an artist for who they are, and for what makes them unique... both good and bad.
I don't waste my time thinking about all the other people they should be more like.

I guess I do sit around listening to Stevie Nicks albums and wishing that she was as fresh and creative as she once was.
I listen to Stevie Nicks for who she is, but unfortunately, she just isn't the artist that she once was.
I listen to most of her albums and love them. Just because she was once superb, it doesn't mean that she currently is. But such is life and such statements piss off those who actually believe she's still as good as she was in her prime.

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 04:02 PM

BINGO. The song isn't about warmth. See, it worked.
:p

If that's what Joni was going for, then more power to her. Myself, I prefer lyrics which demonstrate warmth... not aloof perfection. :shrug:

Oh, I know. I'll call some of it great, and some of it wretched. And you'll never understand why I think any of it fails. It's all good.
I will submit as well that she does sometimes write differently. She can and has written thoughtfully and carefully. When she does, it shows. I take great interest in why it works when it does. At least as much as in the failures.

See this is the problem I sometimes have in explaining my position. It's not that I don't think she sometimes misses the mark, and it's not that I don't understand why others also feel that she sometimes misses the mark.
It's merely that I feel a person's missteps are just as important (and sometimes more important) as their moments of glory.

That Stevie occasionally writes a cringe-worthy clunker is endlessly engaging to me, because it demonstrates... to me at least... a woman who's not afraid of just putting herself out there, warts and all, in her lyrics.

She could edit and re-edit ad naseum, and continually present to us lyrics that are as perfect and airbrushed as the cover of her next album will be... but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting or endearing to me.

So-called clunkers like "Desert Angel" are just as important to me as gems like "Silver Springs," because they present a more multi-faceted and well-rounded portrait of the artist, in all of her foibles and triumphs. Stevie comes across in her music as a warm, but flawed, human being... and I relate more to that, than I do to icy perfection.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 04:11 PM

I guess I do sit around listening to Stevie Nicks albums and wishing that she was as fresh and creative as she once was.
I listen to Stevie Nicks for who she is, but unfortunately, she just isn't the artist that she once was.
I listen to most of her albums and love them. Just because she was once superb, it doesn't mean that she currently is. But such is life and such statements piss off those who actually believe she's still as good as she was in her prime.

Well, I know this may sound foreign to you, but your opinion is not the law :laugh: :wavey:

People can think songs like "I Miss You" are just as great as, say, Rhiannon and to them - they probably are. It is all subjective :shrug:

Thus, when people say things like her current work is not as good or use even stronger lang. to describe it, people who like it are gonna take offense :wavey:

I think she is just great then and now. I long for "the voice" to be back. But, that will never happen - so I adjust :cool:

Livia

12-07-2004, 04:15 PM

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 04:18 PM

I hate to interrupt this somewhat heated discussion - but back to the original topic for a sec - I love when Stevie sings higher on the "for goodness sake" and you can hear some people in the audience go, "Wooo!" :)

Yep - and I think she demonstrates her range is still mostly there and she does it throughout that song actually :nod: She also did it everynight they sang Say Goodbye as well. i think she just knows that it is not wise to use the higher end all of the time - though I wish she could and would :woohoo:

Serrart

12-07-2004, 05:01 PM

Well, I know this may sound foreign to you, but your opinion is not the law :laugh: :wavey:

People can think songs like "I Miss You" are just as great as, say, Rhiannon and to them - they probably are. It is all subjective :shrug:

Definitely it's all subjective, I'm one of them. I even think Trouble in Shangri-la, Illume or Destiny Rules are all great as Rhiannon.

Thus, when people say things like her current work is not as good or use even stronger lang. to describe it, people who like it are gonna take offense :wavey:

Personally I don't take offense, I know they are all wrong :nod: ... Just to use the peremptory tone a bit myself... ;)

Romy

sparky

12-07-2004, 05:23 PM

If that's what Joni was going for, then more power to her. Myself, I prefer lyrics which demonstrate warmth... not aloof perfection. :shrug:

Warmth in a song about a character that is isolated and a situation that is about consistently missing the mark ? Why on earth would a writer talk warmly about loneliness, desolation, and emotional ennui ?
I don't consider the language and tone to be the message.

See this is the problem I sometimes have in explaining my position. It's not that I don't think she sometimes misses the mark, and it's not that I don't understand why others also feel that she sometimes misses the mark.
It's merely that I feel a person's missteps are just as important (and sometimes more important) as their moments of glory.

That Stevie occasionally writes a cringe-worthy clunker is endlessly engaging to me, because it demonstrates... to me at least... a woman who's not afraid of just putting herself out there, warts and all, in her lyrics.

I think I understand your position quite well. There is a certain lovability that comes with shortcomings. That's why our families and friends are so precious to us. On the other hand, when an artist has repeated blunders on an epic scale, it greatly contributes to the public's perception that they aren't so great at their job. In previous posts on this thread, you have asked why SN is not regarded in the league of the great writers. That's the main reason.
I have had to justify Stevie and make excuses for her to so many of my friends I have about pulled a muscle over the years. I don't have the patience for it anymore. It makes me nuts.

She could edit and re-edit ad naseum, and continually present to us lyrics that are as perfect and airbrushed as the cover of her next album will be... but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting or endearing to me....
Stevie comes across in her music as a warm, but flawed, human being... and I relate more to that, than I do to icy perfection.

She has labored over the quality of her lyrics and music as is evidenced by the songs most universally regarded as her finest (even here on the ledge). Landslide, Storms, Silver Springs, GDW, etc...are actually quite perfect in their execution as poems. They are the pieces one could take into a class in college, and they wouldn't get you laughed out of the room.
The "icy perfection" you speak of is puzzling to me. It sounds like you think that a piece of music that is without obvious flaws is by definition emotionally disconnected. Is Beethoven icy ? Stevie labored like hell over Leather and Lace. She edited the hell out of it. I don't like it, but it is very well constructed. And was a big hit. Is that icy perfection ? Or is it not icy because it is from the POV of someone lovestruck and vulnerable ?
Or is Joni just icy ? Maybe it's the Blue eyes and natural blonde hair ? :laugh:

ricohv

12-07-2004, 05:30 PM

Do the people who are so critical of Stevie's lyrics, and things like using rivers as metaphors, think Chrisitine spent hours toiling over lines like "I wanna be with you everywhere". She didn't spend hours toiling over lyrics, she says so. If a new album required 4 new songs from Chris, out came 4 new songs. Voi la. I'm not knocking Chris, I love her. If Stevie limited her work to the same pace as Chris, we'd probably only see a few perfectly polished gems as well. But I'd rather have a new album every few years (as well as whenever FM rolls around) and put up with a few clunkers here and there.

David

12-07-2004, 05:43 PM

Do the people who are so critical of Stevie's lyrics, and things like using rivers as metaphors, think Chrisitine spent hours toiling over lines like "I wanna be with you everywhere".I'm occasionally critical of Stevie's lyric-writing (she's not a poet in my book, but she is a great pop singer). Christine isn't a great lyricist, either, but of course she doesn't call herself a poet or a sage. She says she's a "pretty basic love-song writer," which puts her about on par with her bandmates, & with Howard Dietz, Irving Caesar, Lorenz Hart, etc.

David

12-07-2004, 05:50 PM

The "icy perfection" you speak of is puzzling to me. It sounds like you think that a piece of music that is without obvious flaws is by definition emotionally disconnected. Is Beethoven icy?Good example. Beethoven's notebooks look like the (& maybe are) the tortured notational rantings of a madman. He went at his scores like a sculptor at a hunk of marble. That's what art is -- that's what poetry is. It's fiendishly difficult. Art isn't the experience itself; it's the experience formalized, given structure. A beautiful sunset isn't a work of art; it's nature. The sky never expects it when it rains, but the sea changes color.

Serrart

12-07-2004, 06:46 PM

Good example. Beethoven's notebooks look like the (& maybe are) the tortured notational rantings of a madman. He went at his scores like a sculptor at a hunk of marble. That's what art is -- that's what poetry is. It's fiendishly difficult. Art isn't the experience itself; it's the experience formalized, given structure. A beautiful sunset isn't a work of art; it's nature. The sky never expects it when it rains, but the sea changes color.

Fellini basically based all his movies only on his own life and dreams, with a universe of returning patterns, images, themes, that deformalized or took away structure to his experiences. Moreover usually there wasn't a real script at the start of the shooting, and he used to give to the actors their lines day by day, but I have no problem in calling him an artist or a poet.

Romy

sparky

12-07-2004, 07:39 PM

Christine isn't a great lyricist, either, but of course she doesn't call herself a poet or a sage.

Precisely.
:thumbsup: :wavey:

The Tower

12-07-2004, 07:41 PM

Sorry, I was at Diz-nee-land all last weekend and sick from the flu yesterday and today, so I'm just getting caught up on this delicious thread. Thank gawd Sparky was here to convey all the stuff I probably woulda said anyway. Here's my highlights:

One listen to her albums back to back shows you exactly how much damage to did to it; she had a different voice for each one. That is not from simply "aging," not one bit.

Exactly! Listen to the vocal for "Sara", which I believe was recorded just before they started recording Tusk. Then listen to "Angel". Then go to Belladonna... not bad at all, but the change from the Stevie of "Dreams" to this point is pretty solidified. Then, holy hell, listen to anything from The Wild Heart! :eek: Her voice is completely breaking down. Granted, at this point she was really high as a kite, so that made her vocals much more adventurous. I love all the shit she does on that album. "Enchanted", "Wild Heart" (where she hits that high E flat), and "Nothing Ever Changes" are killer! But then slide into "Rock A Little" and it's all over. I don't think her voice ever recovered from that slide. Personally, I blame the cigarettes!!

I'd rather be unsatisfied my whole life than be satisfied by mediocrity.

This will be printed on my tombstone. Complacency sucks ass.

See, and I'm no longer interested in being displeased and unhappy with everything like I used to be, because nothing could live up to my expectations.

There is a difference for looking for beauty within things and striving and/or desiring for beauty to exist. Very rarely does anything live up to my expectations, but that does not mean that I'm going to stop trying to get them there.

I said the same thing about "I am a cliffdweller from the old school" and she nailed it :shrug:

Yes, that line is very evocative and creepy, creepy, creepy! I love it! I have always considered Stevie to be the greatest communicator of song emotion. The greatest.

I'm a pretty big Heart fan... though not quite to the degree of my Mac/Stevie fandom, but Ann has definitely lost more than two notes from her range based on the various concert vids and live CDs I have.

She shies away from the highest parts of "Magic Man," "Crazy On You," "Barracuda" and several others.
Now, don't get me wrong, she can still nail those songs... but she certainly has lost her upper range.

Not even close. Ann's range was more limited in the 70's than it is now. Her voice really came into it's own in the mid 80's and has pretty much stayed there ever sense. She doesn't shy away from ANYTHING. The F# killer note she still sings on "Alone" is higher than any note she sang on the first three Heart albums from the 70's.

I'd love for her to have the same level of respect that Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan have (though I'm reminded of the fact that neither of them are universally loved either), but I don't think she ever will.

Actually, I think she does- they are just different animals. I believe Stevie is greatly respected. Her art is evocative emotion. Joni's is skillful imagery. Bob Dylan's is universal communication. They're all great, they just do different things.

I would consider saying "losing her upper range" means losing an octave - or at least 4-6 notes of an octave.Stevie has lost the better part of an octave, if not an entire octave. Ann has lost a few notes, and that's it. Anyone with a music degree want to weigh in on this one ?

BINGO! Prior to joining FM, Stevie had quite a high-ish alto at 23 years of age. It only took her thirteen years to trash her voice and shave off that upper level. Female voices actually get better with age and are at their prime in the mid-forties. Stevie's voice was a shell of it's former self at forty.

I'm just saying that I do believe she's lost more than just two notes from her register.

Nope.

And, hey, count your blessings that the woman with absolutely no ability to properly choose her own material, hasn't recorded a Diane Warren song.
I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED DIANE WARREN TO BRET MICHAELS.

I swear to gawd- that was exactly what flashed in my mind when Brian said that! Verbatim. Swear. :nod:

"Like Icarus ascending
On beautiful foolish arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm
Maybe I've never really loved
I guess that is the truth
I've spent my whole life in clouds
At icy altitudes
And looking down on everything
I crashed into his arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm"

:xoxo: I absolutely LOVE Hejira. It's my favorite Joni album.

Where's the warmth to match the beauty?
BINGO. The song isn't about warmth. See, it worked.

YESSS!!!!!! It isn't about warmth- an that is Joni's particular "thing"- all that imagery. And my point (which I also think is Sparky's point) is that Stevie can do that, too. She just needs to keep herself up there. If the material isn't good, she doesn't have to release it. And Joni isn't perfect- Wild Things Run Fast, Dog Eat Dog and the majority of Chalkmark in a Rain Storm are pretty stanky.

People never called Kate Bush dippy, or Lorenna McKennitt, and even Tori Amos doesn't get that. The difference perhaps being a higher degree of authentic literary references, more sophisticated chord choices, and the fact that they don't use words like WELL for emotional emphasis. Or refer to love or pain being like a river.

Exactly. I think Stevie has run out of stuff to write about. When Loreena McKennitt runs out of stuff to write about, she goes on the Orient Express and hangs out in Morocco, Turkey and Tunisia to discover the journeys of her Celtic roots. BTW, I worship Loreena McKennitt!!!! Worship, I tells ya!!!

If that's what Joni was going for, then more power to her. Myself, I prefer lyrics which demonstrate warmth... not aloof perfection.

Stevie comes across in her music as a warm, but flawed, human being... and I relate more to that, than I do to icy perfection.

First of all, the song "Amelia" isn't about "aloof perfection". It's about loneliness and helplessness and fear of the unknown. Joni has expressed her flaws greater than any other songwriter out there, in my opinion. "Warmth" is subjective. Not all of Stevie's songs are "warm" (thank gawd). "Planets of the Universe" is just about as icy cold as you can get- but that song is fantastic.

People can think songs like "I Miss You" are just as great as, say, Rhiannon and to them - they probably are.

I think "I Miss You" is better than "Rhiannon" personally.

I think she is just great then and now. I long for "the voice" to be back. But, that will never happen - so I adjust.

Me, too. But I HATE waiting for it to be killer again.

Warmth in a song about a character that is isolated and a situation that is about consistently missing the mark ? Why on earth would a writer talk warmly about loneliness, desolation, and emotional ennui ?

:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

The "icy perfection" you speak of is puzzling to me. It sounds like you think that a piece of music that is without obvious flaws is by definition emotionally disconnected. Is Beethoven icy ? Stevie labored like hell over Leather and Lace. She edited the hell out of it. I don't like it, but it is very well constructed.

PREACH IT SISTAH!!!! TESTIFY!!!!!!!!!

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 07:49 PM

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 08:12 PM

Warmth in a song about a character that is isolated and a situation that is about consistently missing the mark ? Why on earth would a writer talk warmly about loneliness, desolation, and emotional ennui ?
I don't consider the language and tone to be the message.

Then the original comparison is flawed. :shrug:

I have had to justify Stevie and make excuses for her to so many of my friends I have about pulled a muscle over the years. I don't have the patience for it anymore. It makes me nuts.

Well, there ya go, Sparkalah... stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music. ;)
Hopefully Stevie will someday apologize to you personally for embarrassing you in front of your friends. ;) :p :laugh:

The "icy perfection" you speak of is puzzling to me. It sounds like you think that a piece of music that is without obvious flaws is by definition emotionally disconnected. Is Beethoven icy ?

Beethoven wrote classicial compositions... I would expect him to labor more over his work than a pop writer would.
Classical music and pop music are two vastly different beasts in my opinion. And I'm sorry but as much as I love Stevie, I don't put her on the same level as someone like Beethoven. I don't put any pop/rock songwriter on that level, no matter how brilliant they may be.

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.
I read great literature because it stimulates my mind. I listen to pop music because it stimulates my emotions.

Or is Joni just icy ? Maybe it's the Blue eyes and natural blonde hair ? :laugh:

You're right... maybe if she had big, brown dow-eyes it would sway my opinion. ;) :rolleyes:

amber

12-07-2004, 08:15 PM

"who's johnny, she said, and smiled in her special way. Johnny, she said, you know i love you..."
I've been watching this thread, and just have to say :xoxo: to the Don.

sparky

12-07-2004, 08:18 PM

Not to thro gasoline on the fire, but Stevie has often said that sings like Rhiannon, Landslide, etc. just flowed through her as if some spirit had possessed her. Those are widely considered to be her best work - yet there apparently was no poetic labor :shrug:

Of course that happens. It happens to every writer. It's a miracle when it happens. It just doesn't happen often. I think Stevie started to believe that everything that flowed out of her was up to that level.

But, I do agree to an extent that polish takes time - and IMO she to these ears could polish a little better - e.g. "that made me stronger - it made me hold on to me" - great sentiment IMO said in a trite and Hallmark greeting card way. But, IMO it all is so subjective and many people love the latter song. So, who am I to keep them down :laugh:

Agreed. A lot of people love it and God Bless Em. Just hope Homegirl doesn't take it to heart though.

AND ANOTHER THING :laugh: all of my dress and other parodies flowed out of me with little to know effort due to two things: 1. I am brilliant and 2. someone possessed me :laugh: :wavey: :rolleyes: :angel:

Indeed. The dress parodies just HAPPEN, don't they ? I think I have been consistently possessed by the wayward spirit of the missing Darklinensuit.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 08:21 PM

Yes, alas poor Jake - I knew him well :laugh: :laugh: :wavey: (to Jake if you are a readin' this!!!!)

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 08:24 PM

I'm occasionally critical of Stevie's lyric-writing (she's not a poet in my book, but she is a great pop singer). Christine isn't a great lyricist, either, but of course she doesn't call herself a poet or a sage. She says she's a "pretty basic love-song writer," which puts her about on par with her bandmates, & with Howard Dietz, Irving Caesar, Lorenz Hart, etc.

That's what art is -- that's what poetry is. It's fiendishly difficult. Art isn't the experience itself; it's the experience formalized, given structure.

Emily Dickinson isn't Pablo Neruda, but they're both still poets, no?

Photography isn't as laborious as oil painting, but they're both forms of art, correct?

I don't compare pop music to classical music, and I don't compare pop lyrics to sonnets, but I consider Stevie, Christine and Lindsey (as well as Peter, Danny, Bob, etc.), as artists and poets in their own right.

sparky

12-07-2004, 08:30 PM

Then the original comparison is flawed. :shrug:

Huh ? The original comparison was about imagery and using language in an interesting way.

Well, there ya go, Sparkalah... stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music. ;)
Hopefully Stevie will someday apologize to you personally for embarrassing you in front of your friends. ;) :p :laugh:

Oh, I have. Apologize to me ? If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that. Have fun, tell the world !

Beethoven wrote classicial compositions... I would expect him to labor more over his work than a pop writer would.

Classical, shmassical. If an artist takes their work seriously, they should be laboring over it. That is the kind of argument people use when trying to prove pop music isn't important.

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.
I read great literature because it stimulates my mind. I listen to pop music because it stimulates my emotions.

Really ? You think TISL the song wasn't labored over and perfected ? Sara ? Storms ? Lindsey's solo material ? All of Lindsey's SYW material ?

You're right... maybe if she had big, brown dow-eyes it would sway my opinion. ;) :rolleyes:

Well, and a hairy chest. :eek: :laugh:

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 08:31 PM

Are you two ready to kiss and make up :cool:

sparky

12-07-2004, 08:47 PM

Sorry, I was at Diz-nee-land all last weekend and sick from the flu yesterday and today, so I'm just getting caught up on this delicious thread. Thank gawd Sparky was here to convey all the stuff I probably woulda said anyway. Here's my highlights:

Disneyland ? I am so sorry. How traumatic. Glad to stand in, buddy.

Then, holy hell, listen to anything from The Wild Heart! :eek: Her voice is completely breaking down. I love all the shit she does on that album. "Enchanted", "Wild Heart" (where she hits that high E flat), and "Nothing Ever Changes" are killer! But then slide into "Rock A Little" and it's all over. I don't think her voice ever recovered from that slide. Personally, I blame the cigarettes!!

Yup. That E flat is never happening again. Even though it was a little screechy, it was impressive. Let's not forget the coke - which is hellish for vocal cords, according to a physician I know.

This will be printed on my tombstone. Complacency sucks ass.

IN LIFE AS IN ART.

There is a difference for looking for beauty within things and striving and/or desiring for beauty to exist. Very rarely does anything live up to my expectations, but that does not mean that I'm going to stop trying to get them there.

Bingo.

I love it! I have always considered Stevie to be the greatest communicator of song emotion. The greatest[/I

When the material is up to snuff, no doubt about it.

Not even [I]close. Ann's range was more limited in the 70's than it is now. Her voice really came into it's own in the mid 80's and has pretty much stayed there ever sense. She doesn't shy away from ANYTHING. The F# killer note she still sings on "Alone" is higher than any note she sang on the first three Heart albums from the 70's.

And can we just ruminate on the high C in What About Love ? And the fact that it happens live. Wallowing in it. I listened to it three times today.

Actually, I think she does- they are just different animals. I believe Stevie is greatly respected. Her art is evocative emotion. Joni's is skillful imagery. Bob Dylan's is universal communication. They're all great, they just do different things.

I don't think the respect is the same, but I think Stevie is more passionately loved by her fans. The only reason I always dwell on this little fact is that she is SO about speaking of herself as if she is in that league.

Prior to joining FM, Stevie had quite a high-ish alto at 23 years of age. It only took her thirteen years to trash her voice and shave off that upper level. Female voices actually get better with age and are at their prime in the mid-forties. Stevie's voice was a shell of it's former self at forty.

Oh, man. I think she did it in 10.

:xoxo: I absolutely LOVE Hejira. It's my favorite Joni album.

Well, have you heard Travelogue ? The new versions of the old songs are better, IMO. I love her older voice.

When Loreena McKennitt runs out of stuff to write about, she goes on the Orient Express and hangs out in Morocco, Turkey and Tunisia to discover the journeys of her Celtic roots.

This would be feeding yourself and growing artistically, so OLD SCHOOL.

First of all, the song "Amelia" isn't about "aloof perfection". It's about loneliness and helplessness and fear of the unknown. Joni has expressed her flaws greater than any other songwriter out there, in my opinion. "Warmth" is subjective. Not all of Stevie's songs are "warm" (thank gawd). "Planets of the Universe" is just about as icy cold as you can get- but that song is fantastic.

True, true, and true.

PREACH IT SISTAH!!!! TESTIFY!!!!!!!!!

Sparky ain't a sister to nobody. But I am still tempted to ask you to marry me.

:wavey: :xoxo: :laugh:

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 08:54 PM

Huh ? The original comparison was about imagery and using language in an interesting way.

You were discussing the conveyance of the emotion of loneliness. I feel Stevie's expressions of loneliness are warmer and more relatable, which is an aspect of her writing that I had already stated I respond to. You posted a lyrical passage by Joni in comparison, that, as you said, was meant to be cool and aloof.

So, to me, it's not an accurate comparison. :shrug:

Oh, I have. Apologize to me ? If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that. Have fun, tell the world !

But assuming she's proud of every other thing she's written, aside from the Klonopin material, does she still need to apologize to herself? Or should she be embarrassed about these songs because we say she should?

Classical, shmassical. If an artist takes their work seriously, they should be laboring over it. That is the kind of argument people use when trying to prove pop music isn't important.

Pop music is important to me, but I still don't put pop/rock songwriters in league with classicial composers.

Really ? You think TISL the song wasn't labored over and perfected ? Sara ? Storms ? Lindsey's solo material ? All of Lindsey's SYW material ?

Well, they're not raw demos... any idiot can see that. So of course they've been perfected in their own way. But I'm not talking about polishing something. I'm talking about writing lyrics and then obsessing over the way you expressed yourself, and then editing them countless times.
"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"

takenbythesky

12-07-2004, 09:00 PM

"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"
Danny Goldberg stated in Enchanted's liner notes that Stevie never ever had a rhyming dictionary. I understand that you certainly know that, Mr. Stew. I just thought I ought to add this bit of info to reinforce your point. ;)
-Justin
P.S. One of my favorite Stevie lines ever...

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 09:03 PM

There is a difference for looking for beauty within things and striving and/or desiring for beauty to exist. Very rarely does anything live up to my expectations, but that does not mean that I'm going to stop trying to get them there.

I worry about making the world a better place... changing minds, bettering situations. That's when I care about something not living up to my expectations.
I don't sweat what I consider to be the small stuff, like a clunky lyric. Music is something I choose to ENJOY, not obsess over perfecting. It's a simpler beauty.

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 09:07 PM

Danny Goldberg stated in Enchanted's liner notes that Stevie never ever had a rhyming dictionary. I understand that you certainly know that, Mr. Stew. I just thought I ought to add this bit of info to reinforce your point. ;)
-Justin
P.S. One of my favorite Stevie lines ever...

;) I did know it, but I'm glad you reinforced that point. :nod: :)
I mentioned a rhyming dictionary because Sparky suggested that Stevie is in desperate need of one. Of course I got rebuffed when I suggested that that would make her just like every other songwriter out there. ;)

"That Made Me Stronger" isn't necessarily my favorite song... but I do love some of the lyrics, especially that particular one. :nod:

The Tower

12-07-2004, 09:27 PM

And can we just ruminate on the high C in What About Love ? And the fact that it happens live. Wallowing in it. I listened to it three times today.

I would LOVE to hear it! When did they do "What About Love" recently? I haven't heard that one live in a long, long time.

Well, have you heard Travelogue ? The new versions of the old songs are better, IMO. I love her older voice.

I do like Travelogue. "Refuge of the Roads" and "For the Roses" were the highlights for me. I preferred Both Sides Now, though. Seeing her at the Greek Theatre for that tour was amazing- simply amazing.

But I am still tempted to ask you to marry me.

:o :xoxo: :thumbsup: :laugh:

The Tower

12-07-2004, 09:35 PM

I worry about making the world a better place... changing minds, bettering situations. That's when I care about something not living up to my expectations.
I don't sweat what I consider to be the small stuff, like a clunky lyric. Music is something I choose to ENJOY, not obsess over perfecting. It's a simpler beauty.

To me, music is the pinnacle of the life experience. So, I always want it to be great. That's why I'm picky. That's why I despise most rap/hip-hop ('cept Mary J. Blige- I looovvvvve her) and all this new "pop" crap. It's all soulless and dead.

I'm all for making the world a better place. However, most of that effort goes into quests that take quite a bit of time and quite a lot of energy from quite a lot of people. Most of that stuff I have very little direct control over, so I can understand that it takes 20 to 30 years to get gay marriage on the table.

Stevie has the ability to write great stuff. She has the ability to make the decision to mix it up a little bit and breathe life into their setlists. She has the ability to sing with conviction. However, she chooses not to do these things so many times- and with all those abilities available to her with just a thought. She doesn't need money. She doesn't need publicity. She doesn't need a record company. She doesn't need any of that stuff to take "her" at 56 years old and really do something special.

So, you can see how easy it is for me to want her to live up to my expectations. It's not that damn hard. Now, getting the US of A to get over its problem with homosexuality- that's hard!

dissention

12-07-2004, 10:03 PM

Actually, I think she does- they are just different animals. I believe Stevie is greatly respected. Her art is evocative emotion. Joni's is skillful imagery. Bob Dylan's is universal communication. They're all great, they just do different things.

Stevie was on the right track for awhile, but then her train derailed. Releasing albums like Rock A Little and Street Angel only served to fan the flames of the crash. There is nowhere near the respect for the author of "Sister Honey" that there is for the authors of "Big Yellow Taxi" and "Tombstone Blues." To me, that's like saying VC Andrews is respected like Dickens. She's managed to put herself back on track a bit in recent years, but the damage is done. If anything, she's respected as one of the female pioneers of rock, nothing else, honestly.

stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music.

Pot, meet kettle.

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.

How in the world did you manage to enjoy TISL and SYW so much? :p

Exactly. I think Stevie has run out of stuff to write about.

Tell the man what he's won.

She hasn't really done anything original in years. It's all been pilfered from her old songs. There are only so many times one can write about dreams and the like before it starts to cloy on the listener. She's been using the same inspiration (i.e. Lindsey and shitty boyfriends) for decades and it's old hat. When she gets away from that garbage, she positively shines. The song TISL is a glaring example of that.

If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that.

Anyone with a shred of self-respect would apologize for letting that beast roam free.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 10:22 PM

David

12-07-2004, 10:22 PM

Emily Dickinson isn't Pablo Neruda, but they're both still poets, no?They're both poets by virtue of their accomplishments.
Photography isn't as laborious as oil painting, but they're both forms of art, correct?They're both forms of art. I couldn't tell you whether photography is as laborious as oil painting, being neither a photographer nor a painter.
I don't compare pop music to classical music, and I don't compare pop lyrics to sonnets, but I consider Stevie, Christine and Lindsey (as well as Peter, Danny, Bob, etc.), as artists and poets in their own right.I think my post was really directed (indirectly, that is) at the dozens of fans who say Stevie is the greatest poet who ever lived, or something equally goofy.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 10:24 PM

. . . I think my post was really directed (indirectly, that is) at the dozens of fans who say Stevie is the greatest poet who ever lived, or something equally goofy.

Well, she is pretty good :shrug: at least to me :cool: - I would put Landslide, Rhainnon, Sara, Gypsy, TISL, and a few others up there against some of the better poets I have known. But, that is just me I guess.

AND - I can assure you photography is MUCH easier than painting - although I suck at both :laugh:

David

12-07-2004, 10:24 PM

With all due respect, it is a little unfair to compare Big Yellow Taxi to Sister Honey :shrug: I would, however, put HAEWAFY up against it - even WITH the poet priedt of nothing line (hey - its grown on me LOL). Personally, I like Sister Honey though :cool:
"Sister Honey" is Stevie's sublimest achievement. I would rank it in depth, rhetorical excellence, & sheer emotional power with the Book of Common Prayer.

David

12-07-2004, 10:26 PM

Well, she is pretty good :shrug: at least to meShe's one of my favorites! She's probably the greatest poet of the 19th & 20th centuries, but she has pretty stiff competition from the 16th century.

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 10:27 PM

"Sister Honey" is Stevie's sublimest achievement. I would rank it in depth, rhetorical excellence, & sheer emotional power with the Book of Common Prayer.

I can remember JAMMING to it in college. Even now, when it comes on randonly on my comp. - I totally rock out. I think one reviewer appropriately called it a "funky little screamer" :eek:

Stevie is like Baskin Robbins and their 31 flavors - something for everyone :laugh: :cool:

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 10:28 PM

She's one of my favorites! She's probably the greatest poet of the 19th & 20th centuries, but she has pretty stiff competition from the 16th century.

Well, ya HAD to bring those up didn't ya :laugh: But, I agree. I would also put Dickinson over her, but I LOVE the latter. Plus, I love that I can sing "Because I could not stop for death - he kindly stopped for me," as well as most of her other poems, to the tune of Gilligan's Island :laugh:

ontheEdgeof17

12-07-2004, 10:33 PM

I can remember JAMMING to it in college. Even now, when it comes on randonly on my comp. - I totally rock out. I think one reviewer appropriately called it a "funky little screamer" :eek:

Stevie is like Baskin Robbins and their 31 flavors - something for everyone :laugh: :cool:

It's hard not to like "Can we still be friends....etc". I don't think she wrote that part, but it's still hella good. Great tempo and lyrics all in the same bridge. :)

Johnny Stew

12-07-2004, 11:18 PM

Pot, meet kettle.

I actually started writing an explanation of that comment when I initially made it, because I knew that I'd be introduced to the kettle (I also knew exactly who would be doing the introductions ;) ).

The difference though, as I see it, is that I'm having these conversations here with other Stevie fans, as an attempt to explain why I don't feel the need to hand-wring over every clunky line. But I can, with complete honesty, say that I have NEVER tried to justify or excuse my love of Stevie's music to any of my friends. Ever.

It's the arrogant side of me, I guess. You either accept and appreciate me and the things I like, or you don't. And if you don't, it's your problem, not mine. I've got bigger fish to fry. :shrug:

How in the world did you manage to enjoy TISL and SYW so much? :p

Again, I'm talking about my opinion regarding lyrics. The instrumentation and production that surrounds it is something altogether different for me. That can be polished. It fact, I prefer that it is, because I can't stand to listen to something that sounds like it was recorded by a bunch of kids in their neighbor's garage.
But I prefer the lyrics to be raw, emotional, and off the cuff as much as possible.

She hasn't really done anything original in years. It's all been pilfered from her old songs. There are only so many times one can write about dreams and the like before it starts to cloy on the listener. She's been using the same inspiration (i.e. Lindsey and shitty boyfriends) for decades and it's old hat.

There's a very simple solution for that: Give up on her. Move on. Go listen to someone who you do find interesting and who you do feel still lives up to their potential.
Limit yourself to listening to Stevie's songs only up until "Gypsy," and then stop right there if you think her music has gone downhill since then and that she hasn't had anything original to say. ;) :p

Either that or you just have to continue wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' (and gnashin' and wringin' and bitchin' and moanin') about something that you have no control over. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

strandinthewind

12-07-2004, 11:20 PM

Either that or you just have to continue wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' (and gnashin' and wringin' and bitchin' and moanin') about something that you have no control over. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

:laugh: laugh: Actually, Diss has said he liked TISL (the song) and Silver Girl. So, there must be some light in his tunnel (vision :shrug: ) :wavey:

David

12-08-2004, 12:30 AM

Again, I'm talking about my opinion regarding lyrics. The instrumentation and production that surrounds it is something altogether different for me. That can be polished. It fact, I prefer that it is, because I can't stand to listen to something that sounds like it was recorded by a bunch of kids in their neighbor's garage.
But I prefer the lyrics to be raw, emotional, and off the cuff as much as possible.Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

Of course, we're all guilty of the fallacy of confusing the content with the process. We're all drawing the mostly unsupported conclusion that Stevie's "rawness" & emotionalism are the result of penning her words immediately or letting them spill from her pen, unfettered by revision or any additional attention whatsoever. But we don't have anywhere near a complete idea of her process. For all we know, she worked on the "Rhiannon" words for months, twisting & pulling & replacing & mulling over, etc. The appearance of "rawness" might be as carefully tooled as a jet engine. The aesthetic response we have from a poem can't automatically be applied to the poet's process willy-nilly. Ginsberg's "Howl" sure produces that sense of immediacy & rawness in a reader, but it would be a mistake to conclude from that response that the poet didn't revise thoroughly, that he didn't calculate that effect, because in fact he did.

(However, it's my personal view that Stevie generally just grabs lines from her journals & slaps them down, which is probably what creates the triteness, woolliness & deafness to idiom that I often see in those lyrics. My hunch is that she essentially just copy-pastes from her journals onto the lyric sheet, without bothering much to form a more coherent expression. Still, if I love "The Nightmare" -- & I definitely do -- I can't ipso facto conclude that it was written any differently. It may have been, but it may not have been.)

sparky

12-08-2004, 12:41 AM

You were discussing the conveyance of the emotion of loneliness. I feel Stevie's expressions of loneliness are warmer and more relatable, which is an aspect of her writing that I had already stated I respond to. You posted a lyrical passage by Joni in comparison, that, as you said, was meant to be cool and aloof.

So, to me, it's not an accurate comparison. :shrug:

This is hysterical. I am not talking about tone. I am talking about the use of language. "I'm lonely, I'm lonely, I'm lonely" is warm ? Is poetic ? I am thrilled that you respond to it. But to call a line like that poetry is like calling Stevie tall.

But assuming she's proud of every other thing she's written, aside from the Klonopin material, does she still need to apologize to herself? Or should she be embarrassed about these songs because we say she should?

I don't suspect she apologized, per se. She just admitted most of that work was not worthwhile and she didn't listen to it.

But I'm not talking about polishing something. I'm talking about writing lyrics and then obsessing over the way you expressed yourself, and then editing them countless times.

I can't see the difference here. Is it artistically inauthentic to rework a phrase to make it sound better ? Obsessing ? Countless times ? It is preosterous to suggest rewriting a lyric or a line in a book is tantamount to gutting it of all meaning. Art doesn't fall out of people like apples off a tree. That's where you and I really differ. That belief right there.
"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"

That is actually not a bad line, of course she is using the word dream for the 400th time, but at least it's coupled with a new word.
I am not actually suggesting that Stevie use a rhyming dictionary for all her songs, but for God's sake how about expanding the vocabulary ? I suppose that would be somehow violating her muse and selling out. Education is the bastardization of all creative authenticy ? Following this logic she would be a more pure artist if she were banging on a rock. It is puzzling to me that you interpret rewriting and refining art as second guessing and not following one's artisitic impulses. Especially when we have all seen the evolution of Stevie's demos - the ones that did radically change lyric wise and music wise over the years. Are the evolved products phony and less meaningful ? I don't think so. Ultimately, we don't know how much each song was changed from inception to release. However, I would bet anything most of the lyrics lately aren't getting a whole lot of second looks. I think she used to concentrate more on them.

sparky

12-08-2004, 12:49 AM

I would LOVE to hear it! When did they do "What About Love" recently? I haven't heard that one live in a long, long time.

A pal sent me a recent cd from the last tour. I wish I knew the city !

I do like Travelogue. "Refuge of the Roads" and "For the Roses" were the highlights for me. I preferred Both Sides Now, though. Seeing her at the Greek Theatre for that tour was amazing- simply amazing.

My envy...Ugh. Lucky dog.

GypsySorcerer

12-08-2004, 01:05 AM

Well, she is pretty good :shrug: at least to me :cool: - I would put Landslide, Rhainnon, Sara, Gypsy, TISL, and a few others up there against some of the better poets I have known. But, that is just me I guess.

AND - I can assure you photography is MUCH easier than painting - although I suck at both :laugh:

Take "Sara" out of your list and I'd agree. ;)

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 01:05 AM

Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

That's not the type of rawness I'm referring to. :p Even if Stevie says, "that made me stronger, it made me hold onto me" in a clunky way, it's still a little more poetic than a truck-driver shouting expletives at a passing car.

Regardless, I'm not saying that the opinions I hold are completely cut and dry/black and white. Certainly there are variances and room for exceptions.

My point remains that I think Stevie's clunky lyrics are just as important as her brilliant lyrics, when it comes to what makes Stevie so appealing to me. And I feel that way whether those lyrics damage her respect in someone else's eyes, or not.

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 01:20 AM

This is hysterical. I am not talking about tone. I am talking about the use of language. "I'm lonely, I'm lonely, I'm lonely" is warm ? Is poetic ? I am thrilled that you respond to it. But to call a line like that poetry is like calling Stevie tall.

Forgive me, but I feel that the simple expression "I'm lonely," is warmer than comparing oneself to Icarus... a somewhat obscure mythological character that the average person is NOT going to be able to relate to.
I'm not saying that Joni's line wasn't brilliant and beautiful... but I would like to know how many people out there, outside those of us familiar with Greek mythology, could actually relate to it.

I can't see the difference here. Is it artistically inauthentic to rework a phrase to make it sound better ? Obsessing ? Countless times ? It is preosterous to suggest rewriting a lyric or a line in a book is tantamount to gutting it of all meaning. Art doesn't fall out of people like apples off a tree. That's where you and I really differ. That belief right there.

That is actually not a bad line, of course she is using the word dream for the 400th time, but at least it's coupled with a new word.
I am not actually suggesting that Stevie use a rhyming dictionary for all her songs, but for God's sake how about expanding the vocabulary ? I suppose that would be somehow violating her muse and selling out. Education is the bastardization of all creative authenticy ? Following this logic she would be a more pure artist if she were banging on a rock. It is puzzling to me that you interpret rewriting and refining art as second guessing and not following one's artisitic impulses. Especially when we have all seen the evolution of Stevie's demos - the ones that did radically change lyric wise and music wise over the years. Are the evolved products phony and less meaningful ? I don't think so. Ultimately, we don't know how much each song was changed from inception to release. However, I would bet anything most of the lyrics lately aren't getting a whole lot of second looks. I think she used to concentrate more on them.

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.
Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better. :shrug:

:wavey:

sparky

12-08-2004, 01:49 AM

Forgive me, but I feel that the simple expression "I'm lonely," is warmer than comparing oneself to Icarus... a somewhat obscure mythological character that the average person is NOT going to be able to relate to.
I'm not saying that Joni's line wasn't brilliant and beautiful... but I would like to know how many people out there, outside those of us familiar with Greek mythology, could actually relate to it.

I am sure that's way more obscure than a certain figure in Welsh mythology. Talk about obscure !

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

Okay. I never considered it a debate. I'm just trying to clearly understand your persective and explain mine, but I do believe we are speaking two different languages, in a sense.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.

Forgiveness ? That has got to be fascetious. Defend away ! I am endlessly fascinated by WHY poeple think what they think. Much more than what they think.
Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better. :shrug:
:wavey:

Dude, I create sets every day. And people comment on them all the time. And I have written many songs, some magazine articles, and painted some paintings. I like criticism, and frankly, the more people talk about someone's work, the better. Like Mae West said, "I don't care what you call me, just as long as ya call me."
:xoxo:

takenbythesky

12-08-2004, 01:50 AM

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.
Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better. :shrug:

:wavey:
To me...The simplest explanation for why I love Stevie's songs (clunkers and all) is that she is very human; I have never found another artist who is quite like her in this regard. Her delivery somehow manages to get me every time; of course sometimes it takes a million listens to songs from her less creative periods to feel the emotional impact. Still, she has a song for each one of my billions of moods/emotions. No one else does.

This effect is a result of not only Stevie's lyrics but also her delivery. I am not talking about whether or not she is on key nor how her voice stacks up to its past glories and triumphs. To me, Stevie is an even better interperter of song than she ever was. A listen to recent tunes such as Goodbye Baby or Somebody Stand By Me proves this. "Sara" on the second leg of the Say You Will tour was better than ever, hands down. The voice is more textured and deeper, allowing for more nuances in certain cases. The burden of 56 years of life has, to me, only served to ripen her gift.

That voice is undeniably unique. There's something oh so intangible about it; I call the phenomonon "tracking a ghost through a fog" in honor of a certain song ;). The quality is partly the technical aspect of her voice (the vibratto, etc.) Yet in every single recording I've heard, no matter how drug-influenced, there is an urgency and yearning to Stevie's voice. The voice can lift me up to the stars high, high above; hit me like an icepick to my very emotional core; make me relaxed and sure that everything is going to be all right; wrap around a groove and make me want to dance; the possibilities are endless, I believe. The whole package of Stevie Nicks' voice is why I will always track that "ghost" quality through any fog until she sings her final note. I don't care how mediocre the material is, she makes the songs extraordinarily relatable and listenable.

Of course I'm exasperated and tired of Ms. Nicks at times; but there is something about the way she sings and writes that always brings me back. It always will, too. The first time that I heard "Rhiannon" I was absolutely floored. I had absolutely no idea what the woman who sang it would look like, only that she would be dead sexy to match her voice-the sexiest thing that I have ever heard. "What in the hell is that," I recall thinking. "Whose voice is that? I've never heard anything like it..." With each new release from Stevie, there are moments exactly like that one. Moments that I cherish. It's just something within her. And I love whatever it is.

Feel free to dissect and prove wrong every point I have made. It doesn't matter. I just wanted to express myself here. Stevie Nicks has rescued me from the brink of wanting to kill myself; I also listen to her when rehabilitating my body because her songs are very encouraging. For that, I'm eternally grateful. Nothing you can say can break the spell that woman can hold over me with song.
-Justin

ricohv

12-08-2004, 02:02 AM

Somewhere in this thread I just really lost interest as it is all so subjective arguing the merits of someone against other poets or singers or blah blah blah. But to you Justin I say kudos, high fives and probably some other blah blah blah that I can't think of right now. You said it perfectly (and by page 14 it's about time!)
:lol:
Ricoh

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 02:47 AM

Okay. I never considered it a debate. I'm just trying to clearly understand your persective and explain mine, but I do believe we are speaking two different languages, in a sense.

I thought I had explained my perspective. To the point where I was repeating myself.
I feel Stevie's lyrical foibles are just as important to the appreciation of her music as her moments of lyrical brilliance. I even explained why (because it humanizes her in a way that is lacking in many other songwriters, how ever perfect their lyrical turn of phrases might be).
And then we just started going around and around in circles.

This isn't a dig at anyone even though I'm going to quote certain complaints, but I find that it eventually sucks all life and enjoyment out of music to endlessly nitpick at it.
Every pop/rock singer/songwriter has their strengths and their weaknesses. The weaknesses are as much what makes them unique as their strengths. Certainly the weaknesses should be discussed right alongside the strengths... it's all part of the package deal... but more often than not, it seems the former is all anyone emphasizes.
To the point that I eventually scratch my head and think, "well, now that we've heard so often how her lyrics, her style of dress, her performances and her voice are all currently laughable, embarrassing, trite and rote, what on Earth is left that you DO like? What's left to actually enjoy?"

I also think sometimes the expectation level is unreasonable. This woman has officially released around 130 songs... the law of averages state that they can't all be a "Landslide" or "Trouble In Shangri-La."
In fact, the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal when you consider the sheer number of songs which she's released over the years... and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.

But my opinion is not a popular one, and I realize this. If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.

I was going to wrap up with some little attempt at humour, but it's nearly 3am and I'm tired. So that's that. :)

estranged4life

12-08-2004, 03:21 AM

Somewhere in this thread I just really lost interest as it is all so subjective arguing the merits of someone against other poets or singers or blah blah blah.

Ricoh

me too, And I was the one who started this thread :thumbsup:

Brian j.

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 04:56 AM

me too, And I was the one who started this thread :thumbsup:

Sorry, Brian... I do apologize for my participation in hijacking your thread. :o :o

Maybe I can blame it on my local PBS stations for not airing the concert so I could talk about it too... thereby forcing me to engage in a tired old discussion. ;) :laugh:

amber

12-08-2004, 04:59 AM

You know what makes the whole thing easy for me? (And, I don't like all of stevie's songs by any stretch of the imagination) is that, what i do like, is so magnificent, and so unique, that i don't even care to compare. And the songs i like that are less than stellar? They're still so unique, to me, cause of her voice, rhythm, sensibility, that it's extremely compelling. Who else can have a cack voice and use it in such a magnificent, strange manner? No one. Who plays with phrasing and improv in such a way? no one. And, her songs i don't like? At least she's still singing them, and hey, no one hits a home run every time. But also (and this has been debated before) it seems to me that someone with so much constant touring, with 2 bands, for 30 years (sometimes touring more heavily than others) touring, and recording constantly...well, i don't think there is another person with that level of output. And with that level of output? I admire her all the more...yeah, she trashed her voice, she was touring constantly FOR YEARS with two bands. :shocked: I really think, OVERALL, with all the years, counting charisma, output, vocal gymnastics, vocal variance, and media friendly saturation...well, that she's the STAR. yep, she's the star, alright...No one IS stevie...no one else, no matter how well they sing, or their range, can ever be like Stevie. NO ONE. All the other people everyone has mentioned have, maybe, more skills or whatevah. But - they don't have Stevie's special brand of magnificence, and i don't think anyone ever will. the whole package. nope.
That is all, thanks much.

The Tower

12-08-2004, 11:59 AM

well, that she's the STAR. yep, she's the star, alright...No one IS stevie...no one else, no matter how well they sing, or their range, can ever be like Stevie. NO ONE. All the other people everyone has mentioned have, maybe, more skills or whatevah. But - they don't have Stevie's special brand of magnificence, and i don't think anyone ever will. the whole package. nope.

This is why I think she is respected- even to the level of Joni and Bob Dylan. She really is the "Queen of Rock and Roll". I can't think of anyone else that is more deserving of that title. Music is what she wanted to do with her life and she has done it consistantly for the last 35ish years. I love her to death.

But I still want her to be good. Having things phoned in is just not enough for me- nor the idea of releasing sub-par material. That's just me.

sparky

12-08-2004, 12:20 PM

I feel Stevie's lyrical foibles are just as important to the appreciation of her music as her moments of lyrical brilliance. I even explained why (because it humanizes her in a way that is lacking in many other songwriters, how ever perfect their lyrical turn of phrases might be).

We kind of differ here. I don't particularly need my artists humanized. I want them to be brilliant. That inspires me. I have friends for humanizing. Stevie is plenty human to me. She's a nice lady, and a very talented one at that. I love it when she strikes me speechless. If I didn't like her so much, I wouldn't expect such greatness out of her.

This isn't a dig at anyone even though I'm going to quote certain complaints, but I find that it eventually sucks all life and enjoyment out of music to endlessly nitpick at it.

And I find it increases my understanding and appreciation. Go figure !
Too many classes in literary criticism and art history in college ? Perhaps.

"well, now that we've heard so often how her lyrics, her style of dress, her performances and her voice are all currently laughable, embarrassing, trite and rote, what on Earth is left that you DO like? What's left to actually enjoy?"

Since you're responding to me, I can only take this in reference to myself. As far as that goes, I may rant and rave about certain shortcomings of Stevie's career and work when I am flabbergasted by what such a genius let slip under her radar. Absolutely. On the flip side, I have done my share of hooting and hollering about what is wonderful. I am just as passionate about that. It's kind of a given - why else woukld I be so shocked at the mis-steps ? My attempts at intelligent exchanges about this artist are not character assassination. It's a friggin' dialogue.

I also think sometimes the expectation level is unreasonable...the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal...and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.

Not me. I'll beat a song to death to make a point, certainly. Actually, I don't think my expectations are unreasonable...I expect greatness from someone who has exhibited it in the past. I know she's capable of it. So maybe it is a personal insult when it's bad...
:lol:

If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.

Well, welcome to my world. I can express horror at what I consider sub-par work from an artist I consider capable of brilliance, and it is implied that I think she is worthless on all levels.
End of the world ? :lol:
I may be a homo, but I am not that much of a drama queen. Though we all did gush and spaz out like it was Armageddon when Beautiful Child was in the last set....
There is no defense issue here. I really look at this in a larger scope. Call me a frustrated intellectual, but I think that discussing what works and what doesn't in someones art is illuminating and fascinating. It doesn't hurt my feelings or get me caught up personally. And I don't ever feel the need to protect or defend Stevie. Her career does that for itself. I do, however, enjoy explaining my own thought processes, and trying to understand other ones. :wavey:

David

12-08-2004, 12:21 PM

Every pop/rock singer/songwriter has their strengths and their weaknesses. The weaknesses are as much what makes them unique as their strengths. Certainly the weaknesses should be discussed right alongside the strengths... it's all part of the package deal... but more often than not, it seems the former is all anyone emphasizes.Come on, Stew. You know that's not true. That point does not stand up to scrutiny. I've been listening to Fleetwood Mac fans voice their opinions for going on three decades now. I know what I've seen, & I know what I've heard. Stevie has had -- & continues to have -- the vast majority of most fans' love & admiration, light years ahead of any other single person in the group. To claim otherwise is just bunk. To take this stance repeatedly that she is the target of so much fan resentment or hatred or whatever is absolutely ridiculous. She is beloved throughout the FM fan world & well beyond. The rock press hasn't thought much of her over the years, & a very small number of Macheads have been vocal about their dislike of or disappointment in her, but that's all. To claim otherwise is to peddle an agenda of some sort -- something about how the demonstrably small amount of criticism Stevie gets from a tiny corner of the fan world just proves how people are A) unable to feel, or B) grinding an ax. Go bring up any Mac message board, bulletin board, newsgroup. Dig through the archives & read as much or as little of it as you have the time for. You won't see a predominance of Stevie Nicks hatred; you will see Stevie Nicks love. You will see Stevie praised for being the greatest songwriter, the greatest performer, the greatest singer, the nicest big star in the music business, the sweetest to her fans, the prettiest, & the most generous. That's been the case for decades, Stew. I've seen it. The adverse criticism from the scattered few doesn't amount to anything when compared with the outpouring of love for her since 1977.
In fact, the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal when you consider the sheer number of songs which she's released over the years... and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.But to claim that this is some sort of majority -- or even widespread -- view is to set up a straw man argument.
But my opinion is not a popular one, and I realize this.Actually, your opinion is a popular one, & you know it. With all respect, JS, you're being disingenuous. You're creating bogeymen where none -- or only a few -- exist.
If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.That's because the same three or four people on this particular board engage you in discussion on these topics.
I was going to wrap up with some little attempt at humour, but it's nearly 3am and I'm tired. So that's that. :)Well, get some sleep, pal! As you drift off into restful slumber, comfort yourself with the demonstrable fact that Stevie is beloved like few other current rock stars, & that her particular appeal to fans shows absolutely no signs of waning at this point.

Moony

12-08-2004, 01:54 PM

Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

Yeah - especially from me! ROAD RAGE :laugh:

Ok so this thread was quite interesting to read. I found myself agreeing with points made by both "sides." All I can really say is I genuinely love Stevie and love her music, however, she does put out some sub-par songs at times. But I don't dwell on it. You gotta take the good with the bad, right?

Kudos to Johnny & Sparky for such passionate convictions :xoxo: (And everyone else too :xoxo: )

Bottom Line: WE ALL LOVE STEVIE.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:01 PM

With all due respect, it is a little unfair to compare Big Yellow Taxi to Sister Honey :shrug: I would, however, put HAEWAFY up against it - even WITH the poet priedt of nothing line (hey - its grown on me LOL). Personally, I like Sister Honey though :cool:

Just as it's unfair to compare the level of respect there is for artists like Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan to Stevie. Mitchell and Dylan have solidified themselves in critic circles and public circles as two of the best that music has to offer, Stevie has not. When people say that Stevie has the same level of respect, it boggles the mind. Whereas you would put something like HAEWAFY next to Big Yellow Taxi, most people would laugh you right out of the room.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:03 PM

Just as it's unfair to compare the level of respect there is for artists like Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan to Stevie. Mitchell and Dylan have solidified themselves in critic circles and public circles as two of the best that music has to offer, Stevie has not. When people say that Stevie has the same level of respect, it boggles the mind. Whereas you would put something like HAEWAFY next to Big Yellow Taxi, most people would laugh you right out of the room.

Who gives a shite who laughs at me - it is my opinion and that is all that matters in the end. I mean some critics and people love Yoko Ono and all of her "art." Again, you are trying to assert your and other opinons on what I and others think is good if not great. It is an unwinnable argument because the "more people agree with me" argument is fallacious :shrug:

As for the level of respect - wasn't it Bette M. that just called La Nicks the voice of a generation last week at her concert :shrug: Many Many like her - yet you dismiss them so easily. I think you are being purposefully argumentative :nod:

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:03 PM

Limit yourself to listening to Stevie's songs only up until "Gypsy," and then stop right there if you think her music has gone downhill since then and that she hasn't had anything original to say. ;) :p

I pretty much do. :xoxo:

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:06 PM

:laugh: laugh: Actually, Diss has said he liked TISL (the song) and Silver Girl. So, there must be some light in his tunnel (vision :shrug: ) :wavey:

TISL is one of her best accomplishments. Silver Girl has some really sucky lyrics, but I like the vibe of the song and the image she paints.

Unfortunately, since I don't worship at the Altar of Stevie and fall head over heels for her current work, I'm not worthy to discuss any of it. :p

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:07 PM

TISL is one of her best accomplishments. Silver Girl has some really sucky lyrics, but I like the vibe of the song and the image she paints.

Unfortunately, since I don't worship at the Altar of Stevie and fall head over heels for her current work, I'm not worthy to discuss any of it. :p

Get off the cross and let someone else hang for awhile :rolleyes: :wavey:

The Tower

12-08-2004, 03:13 PM

Whereas you would put something like HAEWAFY next to Big Yellow Taxi, most people would laugh you right out of the room.

I wouldn't. I worship Joni, but "Big Yellow Taxi" really isn't one of her better songs. I think that "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You?" is better than it.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:13 PM

I wouldn't. I worship Joni, but "Big Yellow Taxi" really isn't one of her better songs. I think that "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You?" is better than it.

Ah Ha - Dissention amongst the ranks - hey wait a minute :laugh:

The Tower

12-08-2004, 03:18 PM

Mitchell and Dylan have solidified themselves in critic circles and public circles as two of the best that music has to offer, Stevie has not.

Critics, schmitics.... In 1975 the all-knowing critics thoroughly trashed Joni's Hissing of Summer Lawns. Nowadays, they slobber all over it as a masterful pre-cursor to "world music". The majority of Bob Dylan's catalog is complete and utter crapola.

I think getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a pretty good barometer of how much respect Stevie gets. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't get inducted on her own.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:21 PM

Critics, schmitics.... In 1975 the all-knowing critics thoroughly trashed Joni's Hissing of Summer Lawns. Nowadays, they slobber all over it as a masterful pre-cursor to "world music". The majority of Bob Dylan's catalog is complete and utter crapola.

I think getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a pretty good barometer of how much respect Stevie gets. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't get inducted on her own.

AMEN!!!!

I totally see La Nicks getting in in 07 or 08 - too many ordinary people and too many current stars (music and otherwise) and producers love her and her music to death. In fact, many of the ones from Madonna's age down pretty much grew up to her music and manyof them attend her and FM's concerts. I see it as a shoe in - but with the RR HOF - you never know.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:22 PM

Who gives a shite who laughs at me - it is my opinion and that is all that matters in the end. I mean some critics and people love Yoko Ono and all of her "art." Again, you are trying to assert your and other opinons on what I and others think is good if not great. It is an unwinnable argument because the "more people agree with me" argument is fallacious :shrug:

As for the level of respect - wasn't it Bette M. that just called La Nicks the voice of a generation last week at her concert :shrug: Many Many like her - yet you dismiss them so easily. I think you are being purposefully argumentative :nod:

You can think what you want and hold whatever opinion you want, but to compare the level of respect Stevie has to the level of respect that Mitchell and Dylan have is disingenuous. It circumvents reality in order to back up your personal beliefs about her and her art.

I'm not trying to assert my opinions on anyone, though if believing that makes you feel better about this particular topic, more power to you. I think I specifically said that in my post that you quoted from that in critic circles, Nicks simply does not compare to other "poets." It's got nothing to do with your personal opinion, it has to with the rock press not giving a flying turkey about her. She was a joke to them back in her heyday and nowadays they've simply moved on. She can release a million more songs like Trouble In Shangri-La, but no matter how much us fans adore them, they still won't change her standing. She's viewed as one of the first and most successful female rockers, but really not much else. Whether that's fair or not, who knows. I've always thought that when she's good, she's amazing, and when she's bad, she's awful. But going over the catalogs of Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and Stevie Nicks will tell you exactly why some are revered and some are just thought of kindly.

If you feel like taking offense to my statements, go right ahead, but it still doesn't change the fact that Stevie is considered by most to be an airy fairy and Dylan is considered a rock poet. :laugh:

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:24 PM

Get off the cross and let someone else hang for awhile :rolleyes: :wavey:

How original. ;)

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:27 PM

You can think what you want and hold whatever opinion you want, but to compare the level of respect Stevie has to the level of respect that Mitchell and Dylan have is disingenuous. It circumvents reality in order to back up your personal beliefs about her and her art.

I'm not trying to assert my opinions on anyone, though if believing that makes you feel better about this particular topic, more power to you. I think I specifically said that in my post that you quoted from that in critic circles, Nicks simply does not compare to other "poets." It's got nothing to do with your personal opinion, it has to with the rock press not giving a flying turkey about her. She was a joke to them back in her heyday and nowadays they've simply moved on. She can release a million more songs like Trouble In Shangri-La, but no matter how much us fans adore them, they still won't change her standing. She's viewed as one of the first and most successful female rockers, but really not much else. Whether that's fair or not, who knows. I've always thought that when she's good, she's amazing, and when she's bad, she's awful. But going over the catalogs of Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and Stevie Nicks will tell you exactly why some are revered and some are just thought of kindly.

If you feel like taking offense to my statements, go right ahead, but it still doesn't change the fact that Stevie is considered by most to be an airy fairy and Dylan is considered a rock poet. :laugh:

Again, get off the cross :laugh: You are so totally asserting your perceptionof reality as the truth with no exceptions. I think it is perfectly possible for someone (not me) to say Dylan's work is horrible and the Backstreet Boys are great. If that is what they think - that is what they think and it does not matter if 99.9999999% of the world disagrees. In sum and in conclusion (because you will never admit this point :laugh: ) I am just saying one person's "reality" is another's non-reality - and what is your (objective) reality is really all that matters in the end. I think you have issues seeing that and you seem to think that because more critics and people like someone, they are better by your def. and everyone should just see that and not argue against it :shrug:

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:28 PM

How original. ;)

Bless your heart :cool:

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:28 PM

Critics, schmitics.... In 1975 the all-knowing critics thoroughly trashed Joni's Hissing of Summer Lawns. Nowadays, they slobber all over it as a masterful pre-cursor to "world music". The majority of Bob Dylan's catalog is complete and utter crapola.

I think getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a pretty good barometer of how much respect Stevie gets. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't get inducted on her own.

I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a good barometer of how much respect Fleetwood Mac gets. I'd be very surprised if she got in as soon as she became eligible, but that's just me. I'm sure she'll get in eventually, though, and rightfully so.

While they may now regard Joni's albums as masterpieces, I don't foresee them having the same regard for Rock A Little, The Other Side of the Mirror, Street Angel, or Trouble In Shangri-La ever.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:29 PM

I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a good barometer of how much respect Fleetwood Mac gets. I'd be very surprised if she got in as soon as she became eligible, but that's just me. I'm sure she'll get in eventually, though, and rightfully so.

While they may now regard Joni's albums as masterpieces, I don't foresee them having the same regard for Rock A Little, The Other Side of the Mirror, Street Angel, or Trouble In Shangri-La ever.

Correct me if I am wrong, but "they" pretty much unanimously praised TISL :shrug: - but not the other three and they somewhat if not mostly panned BD and WH. For the record. Tusk also got panned. Go figure.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:30 PM

Again, get off the cross :laugh: You are so totally asserting your perception of reality as the truth with no exceptions. I think it is perfectly possible for someone (not me) to say Dylan's work is horrible and the Backstreet Boys are great. If that is what they think - that is what they think and it does not matter if 99.9999999% of the world disagrees. In sum and in conclusion (because you will never admit this point :laugh: ) I am just saying one person's "reality" is another's non-reality - and what is your (objective) reality is really all that matters in the end. I think you have issues seeing that and you seem to think that because more critics and people like someone, they are better by your def. and everyone should just see that and not argue against it :shrug:

Oy, it's like talking to a brick wall. :xoxo:

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:32 PM

Oy, it's like talking to a brick wall. :xoxo:

That is because you seem to want everyone to agree with you that because the critics and other people like Dylan and Mitchell better than La Nicks, they are. That argument will never fly. I know you know this - but you will never admit it :wavey: I mean that is all I have heard you argue. If you have argued something other than that, please note it.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:32 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but "they" pretty much unanimously praised TISL :shrug: - but not the other three.

"They" said it was a strong comeback album with some great material. Entertainment Weekly added up all the reviews after the first two weeks and it came out to getting, I believe, a B-. I still have the issue, I'll check it later.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:34 PM

That is because you seem to want everyone to agree with you that because the critics and other people like Dylan and Mitchell better than La Nicks, they are. That argument will never fly. I know you know this - but you will never admit it :wavey:

Speaking of tunnel vision. ;)

I don't believe Mitchell is better than Stevie, I prefer Stevie. But if you actually read through my posts, you'd understand that I'm not trying to get anyone to think Mitchell or Dylan (who is superior to Stevie Nicks, IMO) are better than her.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:35 PM

Speaking of tunnel vision. ;)

I don't believe Mitchell is better than Stevie, I prefer Stevie. But if you actually read through my posts, you'd understand that I'm not trying to get anyone to think Mitchell or Dylan (who is superior to Stevie Nicks, IMO) are better than her.

Brick Wall :wavey:

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 03:40 PM

We kind of differ here. I don't particularly need my artists humanized. I want them to be brilliant. That inspires me. I have friends for humanizing. Stevie is plenty human to me. She's a nice lady, and a very talented one at that. I love it when she strikes me speechless. If I didn't like her so much, I wouldn't expect such greatness out of her.

I'm as fascinated by the human condition as I am by art. I'm happiest when the two converge.

What inspires me is the ability to rise above our failings to be something greater. So the fact that Stevie sometimes stumbles and falls, makes her high points even more impressive to me. She's not brilliant 100% of the time. If she was, then she'd seem inhuman to me.
She makes mistakes... doozies sometimes... but then the next minute she can blow you away again.

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:42 PM

"They" said it was a strong comeback album with some great material. Entertainment Weekly added up all the reviews after the first two weeks and it came out to getting, I believe, a B-. I still have the issue, I'll check it later.

Well, there were alot more reviewers than EW cites. The Nicksfix has many articles and other less biased sites have other reviews - although the Nicksfix has some that are not five stars.

Interestingly, I am thinking of a Timespace review (possibly Rolling Stone - but I cannot remember) where the reviewer said that the hit songs indicated Stevie had been dissed too much and they conveyed the level of respect she rightfully earned - or something like that. :cool:

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:47 PM

Interestingly, I am thinking of a Timespace review (possibly Rolling Stone - but I cannot remember) where the reviewer said that the hit songs indicated Stevie had been dissed too much and they conveyed the level of respect she rightfully earned - or something like that. :cool:

That would be a first for Rolling Stone. :laugh: They were always pretty negative about Stevie (though I believe they gave TISL three stars). I particulary liked the reviews for The Wild Heart (one of my faves, but the review was hilariously wicked) and Rock A Little (be still my heart, this was a fab review). The review for Street Angel was pretty mediocre, but I loved the "woman-child" line in that review. :laugh:

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 03:56 PM

Come on, Stew. You know that's not true. That point does not stand up to scrutiny. I've been listening to Fleetwood Mac fans voice their opinions for going on three decades now. I know what I've seen, & I know what I've heard. Stevie has had -- & continues to have -- the vast majority of most fans' love & admiration, light years ahead of any other single person in the group. To claim otherwise is just bunk. To take this stance repeatedly that she is the target of so much fan resentment or hatred or whatever is absolutely ridiculous. She is beloved throughout the FM fan world & well beyond. The rock press hasn't thought much of her over the years, & a very small number of Macheads have been vocal about their dislike of or disappointment in her, but that's all. To claim otherwise is to peddle an agenda of some sort -- something about how the demonstrably small amount of criticism Stevie gets from a tiny corner of the fan world just proves how people are A) unable to feel, or B) grinding an ax. Go bring up any Mac message board, bulletin board, newsgroup. Dig through the archives & read as much or as little of it as you have the time for. You won't see a predominance of Stevie Nicks hatred; you will see Stevie Nicks love. You will see Stevie praised for being the greatest songwriter, the greatest performer, the greatest singer, the nicest big star in the music business, the sweetest to her fans, the prettiest, & the most generous. That's been the case for decades, Stew. I've seen it. The adverse criticism from the scattered few doesn't amount to anything when compared with the outpouring of love for her since 1977.
But to claim that this is some sort of majority -- or even widespread -- view is to set up a straw man argument.
Actually, your opinion is a popular one, & you know it. With all respect, JS, you're being disingenuous. You're creating bogeymen where none -- or only a few -- exist.
That's because the same three or four people on this particular board engage you in discussion on these topics.
Well, get some sleep, pal! As you drift off into restful slumber, comfort yourself with the demonstrable fact that Stevie is beloved like few other current rock stars, & that her particular appeal to fans shows absolutely no signs of waning at this point.

You know what it is, David? I think sometimes I'm a bit of an oddball in the fan community.

I don't fit it in with the group of fans who think Stevie is the second-coming of the Virgin Mary, and I don't fit in with the fans who feel the need to make snide comments about every little hand gesture and metaphysical reference.

I want to discuss the songs with thoughtfulness and intelligence... I get bored with the "Stevie is the greatest poet to ever live!" stuff. Yeah, it's great to hear that so many people love her music as much as I do... but where's the rational discussion?
But I also get bored with all of the "Hooo-ey! That song's a big steaming turd! Stevie can't write anymore to save her soul!" type comments too.

Something somewhere inbetween would be nice. Which is why I always enjoy your posts so much. When you like what she's done, you ruminate on it in a well-articulated and thoughtful manner. And when you don't like something she's done, you express your opinion on it in the same fashion.
Nothing seems to be disproportionate. The good and the bad get equal attention.

Anyway... maybe I just have a rod up my arse (no comments from the Peanut Gallery :p ), and need to take up a new hobby.

dissention

12-08-2004, 03:57 PM

Anyway... maybe I just have a rod up my arse (no comments from the Peanut Gallery :p ), and need to take up a new hobby.

That must be more uncomfortable than the bug that's lodged up my ass. :p :laugh:

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 03:59 PM

That must be more uncomfortable than the bug that's lodged up my ass. :p :laugh:

LORD CHILD - you beat me to the punch because I was just a fxin' to type that exact response :eek: :wavey:

Johnny Stew

12-08-2004, 04:01 PM

That must be more uncomfortable than the bug that's lodged up my ass. :p :laugh:

It's not so much the length of the rod that makes it uncomfortable -- it's the thickness.

I cannot believe I just said that. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

dissention

12-08-2004, 04:02 PM

LORD CHILD - you beat me to the punch because I was just a fxin' to type that exact response :eek: :wavey:

There's no hope for you, Jason, you're just naturally anal. :angel: :xoxo:

I'm in a good mood because I just bought (and am watching) They Shoot Horses, Don't They? and I haven't seen it in years. What a fab film. :woohoo:

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 04:03 PM

There's no hope for you, Jason, you're just naturally anal. :angel: :xoxo:

I'm in a good mood because I just bought (and am watching) They Shoot Horses, Don't They? and I haven't seen it in years. What a fab film. :woohoo:

Sad, very true :nod:

and - yes, it was a GREAT flic.

dissention

12-08-2004, 04:04 PM

It's not so much the length of the rod that makes it uncomfortable -- it's the thickness.

I cannot believe I just said that. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

:eek:

I'm speechless. Bask in the glory, because it's a rarity. ;)

dissention

12-08-2004, 04:07 PM

Sad, very true :nod:

and - yes, it was a GREAT flic.

And no matter how nasty and dirty Jane Fonda gets in it, she's still gorgeous. :laugh: I do wish they had removed the clips of Robert with the police that are interspersed throughout, though, because they lessen the impact of the ending.

heyjupiter678

12-08-2004, 06:04 PM

I think sometimes I'm a bit of an oddball in the fan community.

I don't fit it in with the group of fans who think Stevie is the second-coming of the Virgin Mary, and I don't fit in with the fans who feel the need to make snide comments about every little hand gesture and metaphysical reference.
Actually, JS, I think quite a few of us fit into the same category as you. I know I do.

takenbythesky

12-08-2004, 06:41 PM

You know what it is, David? I think sometimes I'm a bit of an oddball in the fan community.

I don't fit it in with the group of fans who think Stevie is the second-coming of the Virgin Mary, and I don't fit in with the fans who feel the need to make snide comments about every little hand gesture and metaphysical reference.

I want to discuss the songs with thoughtfulness and intelligence... I get bored with the "Stevie is the greatest poet to ever live!" stuff. Yeah, it's great to hear that so many people love her music as much as I do... but where's the rational discussion?
But I also get bored with all of the "Hooo-ey! That song's a big steaming turd! Stevie can't write anymore to save her soul!" type comments too.

Something somewhere inbetween would be nice. Which is why I always enjoy your posts so much. When you like what she's done, you ruminate on it in a well-articulated and thoughtful manner. And when you don't like something she's done, you express your opinion on it in the same fashion.
Nothing seems to be disproportionate. The good and the bad get equal attention.

Same here...Despite the relative "worshipfullness" of my previous post. :laugh: When she's good, she's very, very good. When she isn't, she isn't good. Just like any other artist.
-Justin

amber

12-08-2004, 06:49 PM

Serrart

12-08-2004, 06:56 PM

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 07:19 PM

Same here...Despite the relative "worshipfullness" of my previous post. :laugh: When she's good, she's very, very good. When she isn't, she isn't good. Just like any other artist.
-Justin

ITA - and my point is the term "good" is subjective. Again, many like Sister Honey - many do not. Does that make it good or bad. Well, it depends on the person you ask :nod: BUT - I think everyone, well almost everyone :laugh: - agree that like any artist, when Stevie's on she's on and when she is not she is not. Personally, I like almost all of her songs even the ones I do not like (e.g. That Made Me Stronger) - I can still see a glimmer of brilliance - to me, in that song, it is " . . . tell the shadows of my soul to stay back" :nod: So, I, too, take the good with the bad, call it as I see it, and think the wjole package is FAR greater than the sum of the parts :woohoo:

The Tower

12-08-2004, 08:05 PM

Personally, I like almost all of her songs even the ones I do not like (e.g. That Made Me Stronger) - I can still see a glimmer of brilliance - to me, in that song, it is " . . . tell the shadows of my soul to stay back"

There's not a single thing I like about "The Nightmare". There are a couple others, too. But not many!

strandinthewind

12-08-2004, 08:41 PM

There's not a single thing I like about "The Nightmare". There are a couple others, too. But not many!

Touche' Touche' :laugh:

takenbythesky

12-08-2004, 10:48 PM

Personally, I like almost all of her songs even the ones I do not like (e.g. That Made Me Stronger) - I can still see a glimmer of brilliance - to me, in that song, it is " . . . tell the shadows of my soul to stay back" :nod: So, I, too, take the good with the bad, call it as I see it, and think the wjole package is FAR greater than the sum of the parts :woohoo:
Exactamundo! :nod:
-Justin

dissention

12-09-2004, 12:56 PM

ITA - and my point is the term "good" is subjective. Again, many like Sister Honey - many do not. Does that make it good or bad. Well, it depends on the person you ask :nod: BUT - I think everyone, well almost everyone :laugh: - agree that like any artist, when Stevie's on she's on and when she is not she is not. Personally, I like almost all of her songs even the ones I do not like (e.g. That Made Me Stronger) - I can still see a glimmer of brilliance - to me, in that song, it is " . . . tell the shadows of my soul to stay back" :nod: So, I, too, take the good with the bad, call it as I see it, and think the wjole package is FAR greater than the sum of the parts :woohoo:

I think that the big reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of her later work is because, for me, something about her writing started to awry in the late eighties and the songs became much less relatable than they were before. I think she's at her best when there's a large sense of ambiguity to her songs. When she started to write songs like "Ghosts," "Two Kinds of Love," "That Made Me Stronger," "Sweet Girl," "Silver Girl," "Welcome to the Room Sara," and others along those lines, the songs became less universal and too personal in detail for me to enjoy very much. I know that I, personally, really have no desire to know how Stevie's depends on her music like a husband or how she talked to her famous friend last night. I don't know the woman, and never will, so it just strikes me as TMI and it begins to cloy. Others like that stuff and more power to them if they enjoy it, but I enjoy her work that doesn't explicitly refer to herself and her career and her dinners with friends about her songwriting. I can't get into them because I have a hard time relating. I like Silver Girl because it's quite vivid, but I don't enjoy it on the same level as something like Sable On Blonde because I'm not a girly-girl, I'm not lost in a hardcore world, and I don't have or look like a million bucks. It may just be me, but I listen to those songs and really don't give a fiddler's fig. Unfortunately, that's the turn her writing took and I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I think she's a master at taking incredibly personal feelings and emotions and writing them into songs everyone can relate to, but I think she lost a bit of that over the years. Doesn't mean she can't be good when she wants to be because she can still knock her material out of the park, but I think it's come to point where for every fabulous song she records, she records a stinker to go along with it. Maybe she's run out of ideas or maybe I'm just a cold prick with no empathy or emotion, who knows. But those are the reasons I, personally, don't enjoy her new material that much. :)

Johnny Stew

12-09-2004, 11:39 PM

I think that the big reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of her later work is because, for me, something about her writing started to awry in the late eighties and the songs became much less relatable than they were before. I think she's at her best when there's a large sense of ambiguity to her songs. When she started to write songs like "Ghosts," "Two Kinds of Love," "That Made Me Stronger," "Sweet Girl," "Silver Girl," "Welcome to the Room Sara," and others along those lines, the songs became less universal and too personal in detail for me to enjoy very much. I know that I, personally, really have no desire to know how Stevie's depends on her music like a husband or how she talked to her famous friend last night. I don't know the woman, and never will, so it just strikes me as TMI and it begins to cloy. Others like that stuff and more power to them if they enjoy it, but I enjoy her work that doesn't explicitly refer to herself and her career and her dinners with friends about her songwriting. I can't get into them because I have a hard time relating. I like Silver Girl because it's quite vivid, but I don't enjoy it on the same level as something like Sable On Blonde because I'm not a girly-girl, I'm not lost in a hardcore world, and I don't have or look like a million bucks. It may just be me, but I listen to those songs and really don't give a fiddler's fig. Unfortunately, that's the turn her writing took and I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I think she's a master at taking incredibly personal feelings and emotions and writing them into songs everyone can relate to, but I think she lost a bit of that over the years. Doesn't mean she can't be good when she wants to be because she can still knock her material out of the park, but I think it's come to point where for every fabulous song she records, she records a stinker to go along with it. Maybe she's run out of ideas or maybe I'm just a cold prick with no empathy or emotion, who knows. But those are the reasons I, personally, don't enjoy her new material that much. :)

I can totally understand that. I don't necessarily relate to some of the songs either... no famous friends here! :laugh:
Though, as I've said, I definitely relate to "Ghosts," and the idea of depending on music for the comfort a husband would normally provide.
But I don't really have to relate to a song to love it. I don't relate to Madonna's "Promise To Try," which is about her mother dying when Mo was a little girl, but I still love it.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from... the songs that you relate to, or that are more ambiguous and open for interpretation, are the ones that you enjoy more. It makes it more personal for you. That's true for me too.
But I do also love those moments when the song or lyric is like an uncensored page from Stevie's diary, and I get a glimpse into the loneliness of a middle-aged woman isolated by her fame. Even if there's no way I could ever relate to that.

Maybe it's the voyeur in me! :o :laugh: