"I've come to make you better, I've come to take you away"

[diamondsnake]

I just got Touched By an Angel and this song is so haunting and sad. Is it just me or is Stevie not human? I seriously think she has some power over people. That one line "I have come to make you better, I have come to take you away" gives me chills. It is actually a song that makes you feel okay about knowing that you're going to die one day. For me anyways it is like Stevie is an angel that died several years ago and is bringing her lover up to heaven when he dies. I don't know what I am talking about- I just love this song and would love to get everyone's thoughts on it.

[Dreammms]

i really love this song too. i listened to it when my uncle died nonstop and it helped me out a bit.

[dissention]

I just got Touched By an Angel and this song is so haunting and sad. Is it just me or is Stevie not human? I seriously think she has some power over people. That one line "I have come to make you better, I have come to take you away" gives me chills. It is actually a song that makes you feel okay about knowing that you're going to die one day. For me anyways it is like Stevie is an angel that died several years ago and is bringing her lover up to heaven when he dies. I don't know what I am talking about- I just love this song and would love to get everyone's thoughts on it.

I think it's safe to say that she's human. Angels wouldn't wear Frankenboks. ;)

To my knowledge, the song is about AIDS.

[diamondsnake]

I think it's safe to say that she's human. Angels wouldn't wear Frankenboks. ;)

To my knowledge, the song is about AIDS.
Where'd you get that from? Although illness did come to mind when I was listening to the song? Sort of like... don't fear death because you will be healed or something, I don't know. This song has really effected me- I am in love with it.

And she is an angel! The reboks are just there to throw us off.

[ontheEdgeof17]

To my knowledge, the song is about AIDS.


Yeah. That came straight from the horse's mouth. It's on the Nicksfix that she said it was about AIDS victims.


Personally, I think most of the song is about the band getting back together for The Dance Reunion, with little bits about AIDS throughout the song, mostly the ending.


BTW....My second favorite soundtrack song after Battle of the Dragon. :nod:

[dissention]

Where'd you get that from?

Stevie herself.

[dissention]

Personally, I think most of the song is about the band getting back together for The Dance Reunion, with little bits about AIDS throughout the song, mostly the ending.

What a combo. :rolleyes: :laugh:

[jwd]

I just got Touched By an Angel and this song is so haunting and sad. Is it just me or is Stevie not human? I seriously think she has some power over people. That one line "I have come to make you better, I have come to take you away" gives me chills. It is actually a song that makes you feel okay about knowing that you're going to die one day. For me anyways it is like Stevie is an angel that died several years ago and is bringing her lover up to heaven when he dies. I don't know what I am talking about- I just love this song and would love to get everyone's thoughts on it.

I'm with you. "Touched By An Angel" is a BEAUTIFUL song, and in particular the line you quoted. I'd be perfectly happy to "go", if a figure the likes of Stevie walked into my room uttering those words. :)

Oh and for those of you that may not know, you can find it on the "Sweet November" soundtrack.

[diamondsnake]

I'd be perfectly happy to "go", if a figure the likes of Stevie walked into my room uttering those words. :)


That is exactly what I was thinking, and I think the warm vocals on this track add to that effect.

[skcin]

I think it's a tiny bit about Robin too -

"...not standing in the shadows, I see her face, glowing in the darkness, in her own angel way..."

Like Robin's always still there with her.

Paula

[strandinthewind]

I think it is all about visiting a friend dying of AIDS in the hospital that she was angry with and when she saw him for the first time in a long time her pain was apparent but everyone was, given the gravity of the situation, friendly for the first time in years.

The person standing at the side of the stage is the Angel that Stevie thinks takes pain away when she sings a la Rhiannon and her birds.

The song is brilliant IMO.

The whole "life will once more be a celebration and that you will find the answers to your questions" reduced me to a ball of tears the first time heard it and still gets me weepy. My cousin and best friend from childhood died of AIDS related causes a year or two before this song came out. Needless to say, it home hard and still does :cool:

[ontheEdgeof17]

I think it is all about visiting a friend dying of AIDS in the hospital that she was angry with and when she saw him for the first time in a long time her pain was apparent but everyone was, given the gravity of the situation, friendly for the first time in years.



I've never seen it that way before. I can totally view the song in this way now. :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

I've never seen it that way before. I can totally view the song in this way now. :thumbsjob:

It just totally hit me that way - I guess because I had been there - although Kyle and I were not really angry but there was some anger there. I also readily admit it could me about the Mac.

But, the line, "the floor was wet and slippery - with the tracks of their tears" just sounds like the sterile linoleum floor of a hospital to me and they are all there crying for the dying friend :shrug:

I also think that is the great thing about her songs - they can mean diff. things to people :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

Yes, Stevie has said that it was written for and about those who live with or have died from AIDS.
Stevie said she believes in what she refers to as the "passageway angel," who comes to us at the end of our lives to lead us to the other side, and that this angel is the "she" she's referring to in the song.

I really don't think it's about Fleetwood Mac's 1997 reunion, though I can see why others feel that way. My opinion is that her use of the phrase "standing at the side of the stage" is a metaphor... a rumination of sorts on the old saying that "all of life is a stage."

By the way, Stevie stated she was inspired to write it on the Fourth Annual Day Of Compassion, which was June 21st, 1996, and the U.S. Copyright site reflects this. The entry for the song states that it was created in 1996, and registered for copyright on August 14th, 1997.
The 'Dance' tour didn't start until September of that year, but, of course, the initial reunion was in May, when the 'Dance' concert video was filmed... so who knows.


Touched By An Angel
(written by Stevie Nicks)

And when she walked in the room
After so many years,
He looked up and saw her
He was standing at the crossroads
She was moving in slow motion
Everything was the same,
Except that everything was different

In that very moment, everyone was silent
And everyone was friendly,
For the first time in years,
Everyone was smiling
Though their pain was apparent
and the floor was wet and slippery
With the tracks of their tears

And then I see someone standing
At the side of the stage
Not standing in the shadows
I see her face
Glowing in the darkness
In her own angel way
"I have come to make you better,
I have come to take you away."

No one slipped and fell
This time, everyone was steady
Someone held my arm so that
I would not fall
For the first time, in a long time
Everyone was ready
No one said a word
And that simply said it all

And then I see someone standing
At the side of the stage
Not standing in the shadows
I see her face
Glowing in the darkness
In her own angel way
"I have come to make you better,
I have come...to take you away."
I’ll make you better

Walking through the room together
In suspended animation...
No one saw us go... no one said goodbye
But in my heart, I leave
Great expectations
That you will find the answers
to your questions
And that life will once more...
be a celebration...
and that you will be touched by an Angel
and that you will be touched by an Angel
and that you will be touched by an Angel

Celebration
Someday
Someday, Someday
Celebration

[Johnny Stew]

I think it is all about visiting a friend dying of AIDS in the hospital that she was angry with and when she saw him for the first time in a long time her pain was apparent but everyone was, given the gravity of the situation, friendly for the first time in years.

That part always makes me think of how many families of AIDS patients I have heard of, who only reconciled with the patient on their death bed.

It's a sad thing that so many people can't get over their own issues until it's too late.


"Someday... someday...."

[strandinthewind]

I love this song so much I will give my interpretation :cool:

Touched By An Angel
(written by Stevie Nicks)

And when she walked in the room
After so many years, (again, time has gone by since they have seen each other )
He looked up and saw her (from the hospital bed in a weakened state)
He was standing at the crossroads (dying)
She was moving in slow motion (like when you see someone dying in the hospital and do not want to believe it )
Everything was the same,
Except that everything was different (like when you see a friend for the first time in years and you pick right up but you are both different, etc. )

In that very moment, everyone was silent
And everyone was friendly,
For the first time in years,
Everyone was smiling
Though their pain was apparent
and the floor was wet and slippery
With the tracks of their tears (again, the uncomfortable moment of realizing what has past has past and is irrelevant because this person is dying and it is a shock to see it - thus come the tears )

And then I see someone standing
At the side of the stage
Not standing in the shadows
I see her face
Glowing in the darkness
In her own angel way
"I have come to make you better,
I have come to take you away." (passageway angel that maybe she sees as taking her audience away when she sings - she wants to take this AIDS patient's pain away and make them better, etc. - she repeatedly says this is what she does or wants to happen when she sings )

No one slipped and fell
This time, everyone was steady
Someone held my arm so that
I would not fall
For the first time, in a long time
Everyone was ready
No one said a word
And that simply said it all ( the person dies and she almost faints or when she leaves the room and they are still alive, she almost faints from the shock of it all )

And then I see someone standing
At the side of the stage
Not standing in the shadows
I see her face
Glowing in the darkness
In her own angel way
"I have come to make you better,
I have come...to take you away."
I’ll make you better

Walking through the room together
In suspended animation...
No one saw us go... no one said goodbye (She is leaving the patient in the room and in disbelief as if in suspended animation )


But in my heart, I leave
Great expectations
That you will find the answers
to your questions
And that life will once more...
be a celebration...
and that you will be touched by an Angel
and that you will be touched by an Angel
and that you will be touched by an Angel (Arguably the most beautiful thing you could wish for a dying person to have in that moment - It makes me cry to think about how beautiful that sentiment and wish is - I am such a softy :laugh: - Also, this is her trying to, as she says, give hope into the darkness of her songs, etc. )

Celebration
Someday
Someday, Someday
Celebration

[strandinthewind]

That part always makes me think of how many families of AIDS patients I have heard of, who only reconciled with the patient on their death bed.

It's a sad thing that so many people can't get over their own issues until it's too late.


"Someday... someday...."

I agree. But - I think she was not mad about them having AIDS - I tend to think they got into a fight about something else years before and then she heard the person was dying and knew she had to see them one more time. That is what I think anyways :cool:

BTW - thanks for posting the lyrics :)

[ontheEdgeof17]

Good interp. J! I can honestly say, I totally see it.


Could you see the video? GAWD...it would have been gorgeous.

[Hawkeye]

What a combo. :rolleyes: :laugh:

Only Stevie can write a song about her band getting back together and just sprinkle in some lines about AIDS victums in there just to mix things up.

[Johnny Stew]

I agree. But - I think she was not mad about them having AIDS - I tend to think they got into a fight about something else years before and then she heard the person was dying and knew she had to see them one more time.

No, no, I don't think Stevie (as one of the figures in the song) is mad at the person for having AIDS, it's just that that part reminds me of all of the families I have heard of who only reconcile once the patient is in their final hours.

[strandinthewind]

No, no, I don't think Stevie (as one of the figures in the song) is mad at the person for having AIDS, it's just that that part reminds me of all of the families I have heard of who only reconcile once the patient is in their final hours.


Ah Ha - :sorry:

I, too, have seen that and hate that. I mean it is aweful that it takes something like that - and in some cases that horribleness (death bed etc.) cannot even heal some people's prejudices. I mean even Christ forgave the people who killed him - I think it is a little easier for mortals to get over their what I see as pettiness :shrug:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Ah Ha - :sorry:

I, too, have seen that and hate that. I mean it is aweful that it takes something like that - and in some cases that horribleness (death bed etc.) cannot even heal some people's prejudices. I mean even Christ forgave the people who killed him - I think it is a little easier for mortals to get over their what I see as pettiness :shrug:


That is rather sad. I dream about this topic often.


When I came out to my mom, the first thing she said to me was "You are going to get AIDS." That still haunts me.......It's painful that I am automatically thought of as someone who will carry the disease since I am gay. I wish it wasn't such a taboo disease. Let's get over it. Fight it. Cure it.

[Moony]

That is rather sad. I dream about this topic often.


When I came out to my mom, the first thing she said to me was "You are going to get AIDS." That still haunts me.......It's painful that I am automatically thought of as someone who will carry the disease since I am gay. I wish it wasn't such a taboo disease. Let's get over it. Fight it. Cure it.

That is very sad, Curtis.. *hugs* Almost makes me want to cry.

Unfortunately, I have never heard this song...would anyone be good enough to send me an mp3? I don't have any money at the moment to go buy the soundtrack...PM me if you can.

[strandinthewind]

That is rather sad. I dream about this topic often.


When I came out to my mom, the first thing she said to me was "You are going to get AIDS." That still haunts me.......It's painful that I am automatically thought of as someone who will carry the disease since I am gay. I wish it wasn't such a taboo disease. Let's get over it. Fight it. Cure it.


I know you know you are FAR better than any stereotype - but it never hurts to hear it again - so here for all to hear I say - Curtis is an exceptional young man who has devoted his life to help the sick. He is of charming wit and often bawdy, esp. after a LARGE screwdriver - a trait I admire LOL. That he is gay is irrelevant and if relevant FAR eclipsed by the relevance of his good nature and deeds. :cool:

Plus, he and Stew are together - really I swear :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

When I came out to my mom, the first thing she said to me was "You are going to get AIDS." That still haunts me.......It's painful that I am automatically thought of as someone who will carry the disease since I am gay. I wish it wasn't such a taboo disease. Let's get over it. Fight it. Cure it.

Ah, yes, I got the "you could get AIDS and die" thing from my mother, too. And when I dated my first boyfriend, she repeatedly told me that I'd "better not be doing anything that could kill (me)." :distress:

I think part of it is being afraid for their child's well-being, and I think part of it is just plain not being informed enough about HIV/AIDS or even homosexuality in general.

[Johnny Stew]

Plus, he and Stew are together - really I swear :laugh:

To quote Melanie Hutsell as Tammy Wynette on 'Saturday Night Live'... "this is how rumours get started, bitch!" :p :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Thanks for the kind words. :wavey: It was years ago and my mother is more understanding now and she's a cool cat!





Plus, he and Stew are together - really I swear :laugh:


I just think someone is jealous. :o

[strandinthewind]

Plus, the disease is rising fastest amongst African American women and had been for years. AIDS does not care who it infects, it just does :shrug: Gay people were just the first it hit hard.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Plus, the disease is rising fastest amongst African American women and had been for years. AIDS does not care who it infects, it just does :shrug: Gay people were just the first it hit hard.


Do you know the REAL story of how it spread?

Well....


They used to have boating games and such off the Boston Harbor/in that area (I dunno if they still do). It used to be a big sport, I guess. Anyway, guys from Europe (I don't remember which country it actually was...I think France) had sex with the boaters from the US. They were carrying the virus. And since it was between man and man in the beginning here in the states, it has become the 'gay disease'. That's how it started here.

[Moony]

Do you know the REAL story of how it spread?

Well....


They used to have boating games and such off the Boston Harbor/in that area (I dunno if they still do). It used to be a big sport, I guess. Anyway, guys from Europe (I don't remember which country it actually was...I think France) had sex with the boaters from the US. They were carrying the virus. And since it was between man and man in the beginning here in the states, it has become the 'gay disease'. That's how it started here.

I knew it - France is to blame! :]

Sorry :p Had to throw a little humor in there...this kind of stuff always makes me depressed..

[strandinthewind]

Do you know the REAL story of how it spread?

Well....


They used to have boating games and such off the Boston Harbor/in that area (I dunno if they still do). It used to be a big sport, I guess. Anyway, guys from Europe (I don't remember which country it actually was...I think France) had sex with the boaters from the US. They were carrying the virus. And since it was between man and man in the beginning here in the states, it has become the 'gay disease'. That's how it started here.

Can they actually prove that :shrug: If so, that is weird :eek:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Can they actually prove that :shrug: If so, that is weird :eek:


That's what they told my nursing class. These guys were the first to show the symptoms. I'm going to do some research on this when I wake to see if it is 100% accurate.

[Johnny Stew]

I just think someone is jealous. :o

We should consider it a sport to make Jason jealous, and start giving him some good reasons to be green with envy. ;) :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

Touched by an Angel is one of my favorite Stevie songs...it's so sad but beautiful - and also a personal situation took place the first time I heard that song (over and over) - and it brings back memories of that...

And as much as I love Stevie - I do believe her to be human...:p

[strandinthewind]

We should consider it a sport to make Jason jealous, and start giving him some good reasons to be green with envy. ;) :laugh:

See!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next thing ya know - there'll be reports of backstage antics confirming the shipper theory of you two :cool:

[glitter_fades]

Only Stevie can write a song about her band getting back together and just sprinkle in some lines about AIDS victums in there just to mix things up.

:nod: My thoughts, exactly!

[ontheEdgeof17]

See!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next thing ya know - there'll be reports of backstage antics confirming the shipper theory of you two :cool:


:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

And what would that be? Hiding in the shadows, holding each other singing "Country Roads"? :laugh:

[glitter_fades]

I don't see AIDS in the song at all but Stevie always gives a number of different misleading stories about her songs. To me it's about when she first went back onstage with the band for the Dance rehearsals and it was going so well. Then I think it reminded her of how nice it was in the very begining. I'd guess she had a vision of Robin visiting her and making her feel better like she was alive again. Everything was like it used to be before all the bad things in her life happened. The vision of Robin reassured her she could die happy one day now that things have been brought back to a positive place. She could have peace. Everyone can die happy because all the hurtful things of the past were now resolved. No AIDS in sight for me, but that's JMHO.

[strandinthewind]

:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

And what would that be? Hiding in the shadows, holding each other singing "Country Roads"? :laugh:

sending your blonde other BF who is post partum home and having him show up at a concert holding a baby at the side of the stage while Johnny is singing just to piss him off :eek:

:cool:

(relax people - I am just having fun :laugh: )

[strandinthewind]

I don't see AIDS in the song at all but Stevie always gives a number of different misleading stories about her songs. To me it's about when she first went back onstage with the band for the Dance rehearsals and it was going so well. Then I think it reminded her of how nice it was in the very begining. I'd guess she had a vision of Robin visiting her and making her feel better like she was alive again. Everything was like it used to be before all the bad things in her life happened. The vision of Robin reassured her she could die happy one day now that things have been brought back to a positive place. She could have peace. Everyone can die happy because all the hurtful things of the past were now resolved. No AIDS in sight for me, but that's JMHO.

That is the cool thing about her songs. They can mean two totally diff. things to people. AND - I totally get your point of view. We need to sit that chick down one day, put her on a polygraph and/or give her truth serum, and start the rigorous cross examination :laugh: :laugh: You say it is about AIDS - yet you are talking about being onstage - please explain in no less than 500 words :laugh: :rolleyes:

[ontheEdgeof17]

sending your blonde other BF who is post partum home and having him show up at a concert holding a baby at the side of the stage while Johnny is singing just to piss him off :eek:

:cool:

(relax people - I am just having fun :laugh: )


WAS I JUST A FOOL?!?!?!?!? GO AHEAD AND CRY!!!!!!!!!!! OOHHHHHH STILL I AM A FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:stomp stomp: :stare: :stare:

[ontheEdgeof17]

You say it is about AIDS - yet you are talking about being onstage - please explain in no less than 500 words :laugh: :rolleyes:


She can do it. Just read her Q&A. :lol:

[gldstwmn]

That's what they told my nursing class. These guys were the first to show the symptoms. I'm going to do some research on this when I wake to see if it is 100% accurate.

You might also want to research the airline steward who was one of the first cases reported.

[gldstwmn]

sending your blonde other BF who is post partum home and having him show up at a concert holding a baby at the side of the stage while Johnny is singing just to piss him off :eek:

:cool:

(relax people - I am just having fun :laugh: )

Oooh you are wild today. :laugh:

[glitter_fades]

You might also want to research the airline steward who was one of the first cases reported.

Was that the airline steward from Canada? Weren't the earliest US cases traced to this guy who flew all over the world having gay sex? I thought he was well traveled in the NYC gay community during the 70's. He died in the 80's after infecting thousands of partners. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

I know - that was in that movie about AIDS - I cannot remember the title - perhaps "And the Band Played On?" - I think it would be extremely difficult to tell who introduced the virus because people could, even then, live YEARS without knowing they had it and the 70's and even 60'd were all about free love. I mean it is even possible HIV existed for hundreds of years prior to then and just never was spread to readily until the sexual liberation. So, who knows :shrug:

[dissention]

I know - that was in that movie about AIDS - I cannot remember the title - perhaps "And the Band Played On?" - I think it would be extremely difficult to tell who introduced the virus because people could, even then, live YEARS without knowing they had it and the 70's and even 60'd were all about free love. I mean it is even possible HIV existed for hundreds of years prior to then and just never was spread to readily until the sexual liberation. So, who knows :shrug:

I was once read that a few men had a very early strain of AIDS in the Tuskeegee Syphilis "Experiments." Who knows how true it is, but I'm inclined to believe it.

[strandinthewind]

I was once read that a few men had a very early strain of AIDS in the Tuskeegee Syphilis "Experiments." Who knows how true it is, but I'm inclined to believe it.

Well, the virus, even now, frequently mutuates and that is part of the reason why it is difficult to get a hold of it with medication. So, I am incluned to think it was around WAY before it became in the spotlight :shrug:

[sparky]

Was that the airline steward from Canada? Weren't the earliest US cases traced to this guy who flew all over the world having gay sex? I thought he was well traveled in the NYC gay community during the 70's. He died in the 80's after infecting thousands of partners. :distress:


That would be the mythic Patient Zero. He was some guy with a french name. It escapes me now, though I have the Excellent book at home and I recommend it to anyone with even a remote interest in the subject. Talk about outrage. Youi think you like Reagan ? Read this book.

On an epidemiological level, this is all fascinating stuff. It was, epidemiologically speaking, a perfect storm. The infection route of the virus meets the abundant cheap travel, meets the fall of Rome sexual expression of post sexual revolution gay culture. It was a strange historical convergence of events. The details of all that sex club and bath house culture are grisly. I can't imagine the people who would have 20-50 sex partners a night, but it was the perfect environment for that virus to spread and infect an entire community. Never before, and hopefully, never again.

Okay, there's the intro to my dissertation.



:laugh:

[sparky]

Well, the virus, even now, frequently mutuates and that is part of the reason why it is difficult to get a hold of it with medication. So, I am incluned to think it was around WAY before it became in the spotlight :shrug:

It may have been, in a different mutation - a less virulent form. But then again, who the hell was keeping infectious disease statistics in the friggin Congo in the early and mid part of the last century ?

[strandinthewind]

That would be the mythic Patient Zero. He was some guy with a french name. It escapes me now, though I have the Excellent book at home and I recommend it to anyone with even a remote interest in the subject. Talk about outrage. Youi think you like Reagan ? Read this book.

On an epidemiological level, this is all fascinating stuff. It was, epidemiologically speaking, a perfect storm. The infection route of the virus meets the abundant cheap travel, meets the fall of Rome sexual expression of post sexual revolution gay culture. It was a strange historical convergence of events. The details of all that sex club and bath house culture are grisly. I can't imagine the people who would have 20-50 sex partners a night, but it was the perfect environment for that virus to spread and infect an entire community. Never before, and hopefully, never again.

Okay, there's the intro to my dissertation.



:laugh:

I was gonna say that - but you said it better!!!!!!

Also, the gay culture somewhat resisted the closing of the bath houses in the beginning - and - they are reopened today (at least some of them). That movie and other sources thought it was the Regean Admin. trying to take away gay rights and force gay people into the closet. I think in the beginning no one really knew what was going on and the CDC was trying to say what was the case, but the govt. (under Regean) refused to buy it and the gay community already HATED (with good cause) the Regean Administration. The perfect storm indeed. Then, in ALL of that - we have Ray Cohen -- I am not a homosexual - I just like sex with men - homosexuals are weak silly people - I am not. I mean really :eek:

[dissention]

I was gonna say that - but you said it better!!!!!!

Also, the gay culture somewhat resisted the closing of the bath houses in the beginning - and - they are reopened today (at least some of them). That movie and other sources thought it was the Regean Admin. trying to take away gay rights and force gay people into the closet. I think in the beginning no one really knew what was going on and the CDC was trying to say what was the case, but the govt. (under Regean) refused to buy it and the gay community already HATED (with good cause) the Regean Administration. The perfect storm indeed. Then, in ALL of that - we have Ray Cohen -- I am not a homosexual - I just like sex with men - homosexuals are weak silly people - I am not. I mean really :eek:

Yeah, but think of the times. To admit that you were gay back in those days, especially if you were a person of reasonable power, or to even admit to having sex with other men, is akin to someone saying today that they like sex with kids. The animosity and hatred that people had for gays back in the early eighties was just as bad as the hatred of black people in the Southern states. I think society contributed a LOT to the ways people like "Ray Cohen" viewed things, it was hammered into them that "fags" were pieces of shit, that they amounted to nothing. It really was sickening and it still goes on today, though to a much lesser extent.

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, but think of the times. To admit that you were gay back in those days, especially if you were a person of reasonable power, or to even admit to having sex with other men, is akin to someone saying today that they like sex with kids. The animosity and hatred that people had for gays back in the early eighties was just as bad as the hatred of black people in the Southern states. I think society contributed a LOT to the ways people like "Ray Cohen" viewed things, it was hammered into them that "fags" were pieces of shit, that they amounted to nothing. It really was sickening and it still goes on today, though to a much lesser extent.
So true - look at the former Gov. of Jersey. I am not condoning what he did because it was wrong, but the FAR larger question is if society would have been willing to accept him - he would have never been put in that situation in the first place :shrug:

[dissention]

So true - look at the former Gov. of Jersey. I am not condoning what he did because it was wrong, but the FAR larger question is if society would have been willing to accept him - he would have never been put in that situation in the first place :shrug:

Well, he was a piece of shit because of what he did in office and who he appointed to head Homeland Security for NJ. :laugh: But I agree. Sexual preference should be not be an issue. It's no more an issue than if a straight guy appointed his piece of ass to head an important office with no qualifications. But as soon as he got wind that his sexuality would be disclosed, he jumped in the air and disclosed it first, then resigned. He made it an issue, IMO.

[sparky]

Yeah, but think of the times. To admit that you were gay back in those days, especially if you were a person of reasonable power, or to even admit to having sex with other men, is akin to someone saying today that they like sex with kids. The animosity and hatred that people had for gays back in the early eighties was just as bad as the hatred of black people in the Southern states. I think society contributed a LOT to the ways people like "Ray Cohen" viewed things, it was hammered into them that "fags" were pieces of shit, that they amounted to nothing. It really was sickening and it still goes on today, though to a much lesser extent.

I must differ with you here. It wasn't THAT bad. It was that bad in the 60's, but the 70's changed so much of that. In big cities, this was not the case. Perhaps those raised in small towns had residue of this, but society by and large, especially in educated circles, had changed quite a lot by then. Ray Cohn moved in very moneyed, sophisticated circles. Come on, this was the New York charity crowd which lived to finance shows by the likes Mapplethorpe and other avant garde artists of the time. Sure they were slumming, but they were thrilled to be doing it. His failings as a man and a citizen were more about his character than the social pressures of the time.

[dissention]

I must differ with you here. It wasn't THAT bad. It was that bad in the 60's, but the 70's changed so much of that. In big cities, this was not the case. Perhaps those raised in small towns had residue of this, but society by and large, especially in educated circles, had changed quite a lot by then. Ray Cohn moved in very moneyed, sophisticated circles. Come on, this was the New York charity crowd which lived to finance shows by the likes Mapplethorpe and other avant garde artists of the time. Sure they were slumming, but they were thrilled to be doing it. His failings as a man and a citizen were more about his character than the social pressures of the time.

I agree. But I'm saying that with the changing of the guard back in '80 to the neocons, gay hatred was not only pushed further across the country (such as in "middle" America), but it was an issue that was exploited by the neocons; just look at Reagan's popularity and his absolute disdain for those with AIDS (he singlehandedly kill thousands, if not millions). With the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on television every morning pushing the gay hatred agenda, calling them vile pigs with Satan's disease, it only made more people fearful of the gay community and we all know that fear breeds contempt.

And I actually have Mapplethorpe hanging on my walls. :lol: :p

[strandinthewind]

Well, he was a piece of shit because of what he did in office and who he appointed to head Homeland Security for NJ. :laugh: But I agree. Sexual preference should be not be an issue. It's no more an issue than if a straight guy appointed his piece of ass to head an important office with no qualifications. But as soon as he got wind that his sexuality would be disclosed, he jumped in the air and disclosed it first, then resigned. He made it an issue, IMO.

Oh - I agree - what he did was bad and he jumped on the pity me bandwagon only after he got caught. But, I am being more philosophical than literal and questioning if he would have ever done that had society "allowed" (which is a whole other discussion LOL) him to run as an openly gay person for the Gov. of Jersey. In other words, if he had not essentially HAD to have been a married family man and instead been "allowed" to be a happily partnered gay man - would he have done what he did?

It is a philosophical question I guess we will never know the answer to until someone has the ba**S to do it. And then, Barney Frank did it and still had scandal ( I think) - so who know :laugh:

[sparky]

I agree. But I'm saying that with the changing of the guard back in '80 to the neocons, gay hatred was not only pushed further across the country (such as in "middle" America), but it was an issue that was exploited by the neocons; just look at Reagan's popularity and his absolute disdain for those with AIDS (he singlehandedly kill thousands, if not millions). With the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on television every morning pushing the gay hatred agenda, calling them vile pigs with Satan's disease, it only made more people fearful of the gay community and we all know that fear breeds contempt.

And I actually have Mapplethorpe hanging on my walls. :lol: :p

I don't disagree. But I just don't think it had taken hold in a way that would influence the decisions made by the urban living sophisticates of the time. They had ditched their hometowns and bolted for the culture and fast pace of the cities. That wave of neo-con barbarism rose up fast in the bible belt and rural areas, but then again, it was never far below the surface in those places anyway.

I hope that piece of art is a close up of a flower or something and doesn't involve an African American man in a suit. :eek:

[strandinthewind]

I don't disagree. But I just don't think it had taken hold in a way that would influence the decisions made by the urban living sophisticates of the time. They had ditched their hometowns and bolted for the culture and fast pace of the cities. That wave of neo-con barbarism rose up fast in the bible belt and rural areas, but then again, it was never far below the surface in those places anyway.

I hope that piece of art is a close up of a flower or something and doesn't involve an African American man in a suit. :eek:

LOL -that reminds me - I have to confess, I think Mapplethorpe's work was contrived :eek: But, everyone's a critic :laugh: :rolleyes:

[dissention]

Oh - I agree - what he did was bad and he jumped on the pity me bandwagon only after he got caught. But, I am being more philosophical than literal and questioning if he would have ever done that had society "allowed" (which is a whole other discussion LOL) him to run as an openly gay person for the Gov. of Jersey. In other words, if he had not essentially HAD to have been a married family man and instead been "allowed" to be a happily partnered gay man - would he have done what he did?

It is a philosophical question I guess we will never know the answer to until someone has the ba**S to do it. And then, Barney Frank did it and still had scandal ( I think) - so who know :laugh:

And Barney Frank still wins every time he's up re-election. :thumbsup:

No, I don't think he would have done what he did. If he was openly gay and he was governor, he wouldn't have to pacify and shut up his piece of ass by giving him a cush job. If society was different, this would be a non-issue.

If he was openly gay, though, he still would have been a shitty governor. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

. . If he was openly gay, though, he still would have been a shitty governor. :laugh:

LOL - that of course would depend on his relationship with his mother :laugh: :rolleyes: :laugh: :wavey:

[dissention]

I don't disagree. But I just don't think it had taken hold in a way that would influence the decisions made by the urban living sophisticates of the time. They had ditched their hometowns and bolted for the culture and fast pace of the cities. That wave of neo-con barbarism rose up fast in the bible belt and rural areas, but then again, it was never far below the surface in those places anyway.

Oh, I don't think that it affected the urban areas, either. I just think that while people like Cohn didn't consider themselves "gay" because of their own miserable failings as human beings and their own disdainful views of homosexuals, societal views still had at least a little to do with their not coming-out or openly procliaming themselves gay. I think it's a combination of fear of scorn AND their own bigotry.

I hope that piece of art is a close up of a flower or something and doesn't involve an African American man in a suit. :eek:

:eek:

Trust me, there are no fisting photos on my walls. :laugh:

[dissention]

LOL -that reminds me - I have to confess, I think Mapplethorpe's work was contrived :eek: But, everyone's a critic :laugh: :rolleyes:

I like most of it (love some of it :nod: ), but it were his arguments about his bondage photos showing "humanity" that I found contrived. They show humanity in the respect that they showcase human sexuality, but not much else. Some of the photos were outstanding because they didn't shy away from showing things that people found sickening and because they showed that sex was sex and that it could be cold and aloof, yet still satisfying. But other ones were just shocking to be shocking, something he would never admit to.

[SuzeQuze]

I just got Touched By an Angel and this song is so haunting and sad. Is it just me or is Stevie not human? I seriously think she has some power over people. That one line "I have come to make you better, I have come to take you away" gives me chills. It is actually a song that makes you feel okay about knowing that you're going to die one day. For me anyways it is like Stevie is an angel that died several years ago and is bringing her lover up to heaven when he dies. I don't know what I am talking about- I just love this song and would love to get everyone's thoughts on it.

I'm going to have to pull this out tonite and listen again. I agree that Stevie has an otherworldly quality, this is why we love her so much! She believes in angels and all of that so she is able to "channel" that energy and it is startling at times. Someone on these boards posted about an older man leaving a concert and saying, "What the hell just happened?", I think that about sums it up.

[SuzeQuze]

...



:eek:

Trust me, there are no fisting photos on my walls. :laugh:

:eek: New low Diss, new low. :eek:

[strandinthewind]

I like most of it (love some of it :nod: ), but it were his arguments about his bondage photos showing "humanity" that I found contrived. They show humanity in the respect that they showcase human sexuality, but not much else. Some of the photos were outstanding because they didn't shy away from showing things that people found sickening and because they showed that sex was sex and that it could be cold and aloof, yet still satisfying. But other ones were just shocking to be shocking, something he would never admit to.


I agree. I guess it is just that I am not a real fan of photography. I like a good picture and there are some good ones. But, his, to me, just felt like shock and awe. I will say though - he has some good things, the fisting ones not being one of them - I mean buy porn for goodness sake - granted the great shading and lighting is not there, but the effect is :eek:

[amber]

Oh - I agree - what he did was bad and he jumped on the pity me bandwagon only after he got caught. But, I am being more philosophical than literal and questioning if he would have ever done that had society "allowed" (which is a whole other discussion LOL) him to run as an openly gay person for the Gov. of Jersey. In other words, if he had not essentially HAD to have been a married family man and instead been "allowed" to be a happily partnered gay man - would he have done what he did?

It is a philosophical question I guess we will never know the answer to until someone has the ba**S to do it. And then, Barney Frank did it and still had scandal ( I think) - so who know :laugh:
Well, Harvey Milk had the balls to do it as Mayor. Course, he got shot...

[dissention]

Well, Harvey Milk had the balls to do it as Mayor. Course, he got shot...

Milk wasn't the mayor, he was an administrator (board of supervisors). ;) Twinkies killed him. :cool:

[amber]

Milk wasn't the mayor, he was an administrator (board of supervisors). ;) Twinkies killed him. :cool:
um....what does Twinkies killed him mean?

[SuzeQuze]

Ah, yes, I got the "you could get AIDS and die" thing from my mother, too. And when I dated my first boyfriend, she repeatedly told me that I'd "better not be doing anything that could kill (me)." :distress:

I think part of it is being afraid for their child's well-being, and I think part of it is just plain not being informed enough about HIV/AIDS or even homosexuality in general.

Jesus, I can't believe people would say such things! Of course it isn't true but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Hugs Stew and Curtis :xoxo:

[dissention]

um....what does Twinkies killed him mean?

You've never heard of the Twinkie Defense? The guy who killed him and Moscone claimed during his trial that a weeks-long binge on Twinkies and other sweet treats made him kill them. The jury bought it and found him not guilty.

[amber]

You've never heard of the Twinkie Defense? The guy who killed him and Moscone claimed during his trial that a weeks-long binge on Twinkies and other sweet treats made him kill them. The jury bought it and found him not guilty.
oh, right, i didn't connect it. I've only learned that once, so it wasn't in my mind. :wavey:

[amber]

Jesus, I can't believe people would say such things! Of course it isn't true but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Hugs Stew and Curtis :xoxo:
Well, but my mom says that to me, too...always has. :confused: But i guess their moms meant only cause they're gay??? :shrug: I just thought everyone's mom said that :D

[strandinthewind]

You've never heard of the Twinkie Defense? The guy who killed him and Moscone claimed during his trial that a weeks-long binge on Twinkies and other sweet treats made him kill them. The jury bought it and found him not guilty.

Child - it is well and I mean WELL known that California juries are plumb nuts, esp. in SFCA :laugh

[dissention]

Child - it is well and I mean WELL known that California juries are plumb nuts, esp. in SFCA :laugh:

Ummm, OJ? Peterson? They're loopier than a box of Fruit Loops. :laugh:

Any jury that could actually buy the Twinkie Defense should be ashamed of themselves, for they have gone through life without the slightest shred of common sense. :nod:

[amber]

Ummm, OJ? Peterson? They're loopier than a box of Fruit Loops. :laugh:

Any jury that could actually buy the Twinkie Defense should be ashamed of themselves, for they have gone through life without the slightest shred of common sense. :nod:
That's why we're so happy out here... :p :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Jesus, I can't believe people would say such things! Of course it isn't true but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Hugs Stew and Curtis :xoxo:

Thank you for the cyber-hugs... they're appreciated. :nod:

The comments were like a kick in the teeth at the time (as were some of the other comments she made), but I understood she was scared and that I had dropped a pretty big bombshell on her.

At any rate, it's done and over... and just one more part of the journey. :)

[skcin]

Thank you for the cyber-hugs... they're appreciated. :nod:

The comments were like a kick in the teeth at the time (as were some of the other comments she made), but I understood she was scared and that I had dropped a pretty big bombshell on her.

At any rate, it's done and over... and just one more part of the journey. :)

Friend's mom cried & cried & told him it was all her fault, she must have a "defective gene."

Not a great feeling to have your mom think you're defective. But whatever, he's over it & she supports him & they're very close.

Paula

[gldstwmn]

Was that the airline steward from Canada? Weren't the earliest US cases traced to this guy who flew all over the world having gay sex? I thought he was well traveled in the NYC gay community during the 70's. He died in the 80's after infecting thousands of partners. :distress:

Yes, I believe we are talking about the same person.

[Johnny Stew]

Friend's mom cried & cried & told him it was all her fault, she must have a "defective gene."

Not a great feeling to have your mom think you're defective. But whatever, he's over it & she supports him & they're very close.

Someday, coming out to one's parents won't be a painful experience.

No kid will ever again have to hear their mother cry, "what did I do wrong? -- this is all my fault, isn't it?"
Or watch as their father storms off, slamming the door behind himself -- figuratively and literally.

But then, I suppose it can be argued that it's all a necessary part of the process... after all, there's no growth in life without some struggle.

[dissention]

Someday, coming out to one's parents won't be a painful experience.

No kid will ever again have to hear their mother cry, "what did I do wrong? -- this is all my fault, isn't it?"
Or watch as their father storms off, slamming the door behind himself -- figuratively and literally.

But then, I suppose it can be argued that it's all a necessary part of the process... after all, there's no growth in life without some struggle.

My friend that died of AIDS last year was ignored by his family. Wouldn't even go to his wake or his funeral. I called them to tell them when it was and where it was, and they said they didn't feel the need to celebrate the life of a sinner and that I was a heathen for participating in such "evil." Three months after he died, I got a call from his mother telling me that they had gone through the attic and they had "all the faggot's shit" if I wanted it. Can you imagine dying in agony and being positively despised by your family? It just goes to show that there is true evil in this world, but most definitely not the evil his family was talking about.

[Johnny Stew]

My friend that died of AIDS last year was ignored by his family. Wouldn't even go to his wake or his funeral. I called them to tell them when it was and where it was, and they said they didn't feel the need to celebrate the life of a sinner and that I was a heathen for participating in such "evil." Three months after he died, I got a call from his mother telling me that they had gone through the attic and they had "all the faggot's shit" if I wanted it. Can you imagine dying in agony and being positively despised by your family? It just goes to show that there is true evil in this world, but most definitely not the evil his family was talking about.

The way some people act defies all comprehension. How hateful must you be to ostracize your OWN child, especially on their death bed, and then to continue showing absolutely no remorse after they've died?

I wouldn't want any part of whatever "God" they believe in.

[skcin]

Sometimes tha hate people have in their hearts not only saddens me, it scares me. :distress:

Paula

[diamondsnake]

I got a call from his mother telling me that they had gone through the attic and they had "all the faggot's shit" if I wanted it. ].

Oh that is terrible. I cannot beleive someone's Mother could say those things, let alone about their late son. If I were you I would have ripped into that woman and told her exactly what a pig she was.

...That is just unbeleivable because in my experience the love between a Mother and child is so strong I can't imagine something like that happening.

[dissention]

Oh that is terrible. I cannot beleive someone's Mother could say those things, let alone about their late son. If I were you I would have ripped into that woman and told her exactly what a pig she was.


Well, I wanted to get his stuff out of there. :o It was around Christmas time and I sent her a lump of coal with a note that said "If you ever have heart problems, here's a replacement." Never heard back, thankfully. His sister called me a couple of months ago to apologize over her disgusting behavior, but I couldn't even convince her to visit her brothers grave so she's just as much of a piece of shit in my eyes.

[macfanken]

My friend that died of AIDS last year was ignored by his family. Wouldn't even go to his wake or his funeral. I called them to tell them when it was and where it was, and they said they didn't feel the need to celebrate the life of a sinner and that I was a heathen for participating in such "evil." Three months after he died, I got a call from his mother telling me that they had gone through the attic and they had "all the faggot's shit" if I wanted it. Can you imagine dying in agony and being positively despised by your family? It just goes to show that there is true evil in this world, but most definitely not the evil his family was talking about.

Sorry about your friend, what a sad story. I really don't understand this kind of thinking.

-Ken

[amber]

Well, I wanted to get his stuff out of there. :o It was around Christmas time and I sent her a lump of coal with a note that said "If you ever have heart problems, here's a replacement." Never heard back, thankfully. His sister called me a couple of months ago to apologize over her disgusting behavior, but I couldn't even convince her to visit her brothers grave so she's just as much of a piece of shit in my eyes.
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: - i can't believe you sent her that! (that, of course, is the part i'm laughing at, not the bitch sister part)

[Nicks Fan]

This song is special to me because it brought a special girl into my life. I work in a bookstore and fell instantly head over heels in love with one very beautiful young woman named Kataryzna. We have a stero system at work and I was shy about playing my music because at the time I didn't know if we were aloud to play our own music. One day I was sick of listening to everyone else's choices of music that I decided to put on a mixed cd of Stevie Nicks tunes. Touched By An Angel is the 10 track on the Cd and when I played it two female employee's (she was one of them) instantly were wanting to know the name of the singer and the song. She kept asking me to play this song for her as she thought was so amazing. Gradually I made Kataryzna not only a fan of SN and Fm (She thinks LB is very hot!) but my girlfriend as well. We have been together almost three years. She is currently
teaching in Korea and when she returns I plan to ask her to marry me !!! She has made so happy!!! Amazing how the power of music can bring people together.

[strandinthewind]

This song is special to me because it brought a special girl into my life. I work in a bookstore and fell instantly head over heels in love with one very beautiful young woman named Kataryzna. We have a stero system at work and I was shy about playing my music because at the time I didn't know if we were aloud to play our own music. One day I was sick of listening to everyone else's choices of music that I decided to put on a mixed cd of Stevie Nicks tunes. Touched By An Angel is the 10 track on the Cd and when I played it two female employee's (she was one of them) instantly were wanting to know the name of the singer and the song. She kept asking me to play this song for her as she thought was so amazing. Gradually I made Kataryzna not only a fan of SN and Fm (She thinks LB is very hot!) but my girlfriend as well. We have been together almost three years. She is currently
teaching in Korea and when she returns I plan to ask her to marry me !!! She has made so happy!!! Amazing how the power of music can bring people together.

That is an INCREDIBLE story - I am elated for you and her - how romantic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angel:

[WednesdaysChild]

Bumping this waaaaay up...

I was listening to it last night...and originally I thought it was about the Mac reuniting...but also about meeting Matthew Anderson again after all that time had passed, and Robin was the angel watching over them. Okay, just my random thought.

[henryscutter]

This thread kinda reminds me of what Gary Hodges was saying about Stevie in his Q&A. He said he was looking at her and he saw her "aura". He saw colors and light and could'nt stop staring at her. ( He goes on to say she got up and went upstairs; so it sounds like they freaked each other out :laugh: ) I don't know if I believe this or not ( Could have been the other influences :woohoo: :cool: ) She defininately has a powerful presence :angel: :angel:

[Chain of Chains]

I love this song. I just assumed it was about the band. It “seemed” so obvious… I had no idea that it was about AIDS. WOW.

I thought the "someone standing at the side of the stage" may have been Christine? :shocked:

I love the lines

"But in my heart, I leave
Great expectations
That you will find the answers
to your questions
And that life will once more...
be a celebration...
and that you will be touched by an Angel"

Takes on a whole new meaning, that's for sure! :(