Hero or Criminal?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

They were discussing this on MSNBC tonight, and there were indeed a lot of intense arguments. I would like to know your opinions on this. Ok, so here is the main story if you have not already heard :

A man, last name O'Neal, is attacked at home. O'Neal is a black single father of daughters in an upscale neighborhood. A few intruders come into his home with masks on, threaten to rape his daughters if he does not give them his money. They take the $1500 he had in his wallet, and all of credit cards and all. They are screaming profanities at him, threatening the life of him and his daughters. They are being held at gun point. The intruders leave his home after they take his belongings, and Mr. O'Neal tells his daughters to lock the house and call 9-1-1. He runs to his SUV and chases down the criminals to get their tag number, since they were disquised and he knew he would not be able to discribe this to the police. While chasing down the criminals who threatened he and his family, and is shot at by the criminals...busting his windshield, and causing an accident (he ducked under the dash), and rammed them... Somehow in the middle of the accident one of the criminals leaves the vehicle after it is hit, and is ran over to my understanding by O'Neal.
Now some are saying O'Neal should be prosecuted for taking the law into his own hands. They are saying the rights of the thugs should be protected. They say that New Jersey law states that when he knew his life was threatened it was his duty as a citizen to retreat, not put himself into more possible harm. It is of course a fine line of self defense. Some say it was no longer self defense once O'Neal actually persued the criminals. Even though had he not pursued them, likely the criminals would have never been caught and his life would be in even more danger.
A man protects his family, and is now facing possible prosecution? Then there was one man, a police officer on MSNBC who was saying that racism played a role in this.. lol..which is funny since O'Neal was black, the criminals were black, and the cop claiming racism is black. Whatever!
Anyway, what do you all think about this? If New Jersey law does say this is illegal for O'Neal or anyone to pursue a criminal, do you think is an ok law? Forget the fact that someone was killed (according to O'Neal by accident), should it be illegal to pursue a criminal at all?

Have at it folks.

Chris

[gldstwmn]

If he would have shot them or injured them in the home, there would be no charges pressed.
He cannot argue self defense once he leaves the home and pursues the criminals. So yes, he broke the law and will probably be prosecuted.

[sara1998]

If he would have shot them or injured them in the home, there would be no charges pressed.

Not necessarily. I've heard of incidents where robbers sued homeowners because they were breaking into their home, and the homeowners kicked their ass, and the robbers filed charges against them for battery. :shrug: The law is so f*cked.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Well he could be prosecuted, although I do not know that any credible prosecutor would take on a case like this, if they want a career. It's a fine line about what you are allowed to do after your are victimized. Are you required by law to stay in your home? Are you not allowed to get into your vehicle and drive?

It's crazy to me. Criminals have way too many priveleges. In some states this man would have been given a medal of honor by the Governor. It's happened in Florida.
I think there is nothing wrong with trying to get a tag number of someone once they have attacked you or your family. It's too bad he didn't kill all the bastard criminals in my opinion.

Chris

[gldstwmn]

It's a fine line about what you are allowed to do after your are victimized. Are you required by law to stay in your home? Are you not allowed to get into your vehicle and drive?

Certainly. But he took the law into his own hands. The only time you can do that is if you are acting in your own defense. In this case, once they left his home, they were no longer threatening his life.


In some states this man would have been given a medal of honor by the Governor. It's happened in Florida.


Florida. Governor. I think you just answered your own question. :laugh:


I think there is nothing wrong with trying to get a tag number of someone once they have attacked you or your family.
Chris

What about the innocent citizens who may have been put in danger in the ensuing chase?

[gldstwmn]

Not necessarily. I've heard of incidents where robbers sued homeowners because they were breaking into their home, and the homeowners kicked their ass, and the robbers filed charges against them for battery. :shrug: The law is so f*cked.

Suing someone is civil. I'm talking criminal. :lol: Any cop that allows a robber to press battery charges should be fired.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Certainly. But he took the law into his own hands. The only time you can do that is if you are acting in your own defense. In this case, once they left his home, they were no longer threatening his life.






I didn't know that was illegal though. Whatever happened to citizens arrest?
As a father he did what he thought he should do. He knew if he didn't get their tag number they would likely never be caught. He acted out of adrenaline, whatever you want to call it..this man is no criminal

Chris

[Sorcerer386]

As a huge libertarian, you'd think I would side with the criminals. But the one conservative bone in my body says that once someone commits a crime, all rights go out the window. Especially when it comes to robbery. There is nothing more I hate in the world than a thief. They disgust me to no end. A few times we've caught shoplifters in the store, and each time I just want to smash any self-worth they have left into the ground. There even is a little libtertarian in my thinking because who the Hell do the police and government think they are to prosecute someone for "taking the law into his own hands"? This guy took away some scum of the Earth...good for him I say.

[gldstwmn]

I didn't know that was illegal though. Whatever happened to citizens arrest?
Chris

Citizens arrest is one thing, vehicular homicide is quite another.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Call it my conservative bone, call it whatever--I agree..criminals shouldn't be placed above those they victimize. It's a fine line, but when we are giving prisoners all these priveleges, and robbers shouldn't be chased down...something isn't right

Chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Citizens arrest is one thing, vehicular homicide is quite another.

Right, so the thing is though the people are saying it was illegal for him to chase them down period even if he had not killed a man in doing that. If someone shoots at me, and busts my window, I will do my best to run them over..you better believe. I do not care.

Chris

[gldstwmn]

Right, so the thing is though the people are saying it was illegal for him to chase them down period even if he had not killed a man in doing that. If someone shoots at me, and busts my window, I will do my best to run them over..you better believe. I do not care.

Chris

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see two wrongs in there at all. Let's see, what did he do wrong?

He drove down a street and jotted someone's tag number down. He also accidentally killed a man who shot at him, and busted his windshield out.

Nothing wrong there in my opinion

Chris

[gldstwmn]

I don't see two wrongs in there at all. Let's see, what did he do wrong?

He drove down a street and jotted someone's tag number down. He also accidentally killed a man who shot at him, and busted his windshield out.

Nothing wrong there in my opinion

Chris

"accidentally killed a man..." That part right there is a problem. And while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it doesn't make it any less illegal.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

"accidentally killed a man..." That part right there is a problem. And while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it doesn't make it any less illegal.


After someone shoots at you, is it still illegal to kill that person?

Chris

[estranged4life]

If he would have shot them or injured them in the home, there would be no charges pressed.
He cannot argue self defense once he leaves the home and pursues the criminals. So yes, he broke the law and will probably be prosecuted.

in Oklahoma, But at the same time to use self-defense your family/yourself would have to be physically threatened for that to apply, And then you can use deadly force within the law (Oklahoma's "Make My Day" law).

Recently an OKC resident shot and killed a burgular he caught in the act, Even though the burgular did not threaten him or even have a weapon the homeowner may face felony criminal charges for the suspects death.

Once you leave your domain you can be possibly prosecuted, Even if you injure the suspect while trying to pursue 'em.

Tell ya what, If anyone was to ever break-in on us and threaten us they better kill me rightaway cause they will only be allowed to "drop" their weapon once cause after I blow a hole in 'em trying to hold their weapon will be the LEAST of their worries!

Brian "A very proficient marksman" j.

[gldstwmn]

After someone shoots at you, is it still illegal to kill that person?

Chris

That depends. Am I pursuing them with intent to harm them?

[gldstwmn]

in Oklahoma, But at the same time to use self-defense your family/yourself would have to be physically threatened for that to apply, And then you can use deadly force within the law (Oklahoma's "Make My Day" law).



I believe they were physically threatened in this case.
Anyway, my daughter's uncle, who is a sheriff, always used to tell me "If you ever shoot anybody, make sure it's in the house." :laugh:

[sara1998]

I believe they were physically threatened in this case.
Anyway, my daughter's uncle, who is a sheriff, always used to tell me "If you ever shoot anybody, make sure it's in the house." :laugh:

And to make damn sure you kill 'em! Then they can't testify against you. :D

[gldstwmn]

And to make damn sure you kill 'em! Then they can't testify against you. :D

Yup. :lol:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

That depends. Am I pursuing them with intent to harm them?

No you are pursuing them to get their tag number...

Chris

[GateandGarden]

I was going to say that the guy committed vehicular homicide and that this was not self-defense because it was after the criminal came into his house, but since they were shooting at him at the time (didn't Chris say that?) isn't it self-defense in that case, whether he was pursuing them to begin with or not? They started shooting at him first, right? So couldn't he say that he was defending himself from the gunshots by running one of them over? Just some thoughts. :shrug:

Hillary

[estranged4life]

Anyway, my daughter's uncle, who is a sheriff, always used to tell me "If you ever shoot anybody, make sure it's in the house." :laugh:

my Mother (Btw, Who's 2 Uncles used to be on the Muskogee OK police force taught us to "make sure the suspects are within your premises before using 'em for target practice"...lol!!!) taught us 3 boys how to proficiently to "lock & load" & general gun safety at an early age (ie-How to unlock the safety, Check the chamber for the projectile, How to reload).

Kinda strange but I have the same ability to shoot a weapon as does my Uncle Dennis who was a "sniper" during the Vietnam War...If it wasnt for my respiratory illness (Which I still occassionally suffer from) I would have enlisted in US Army as a "Rifleman/Marksman/Sniper/Merc".

Brian j.

[gldstwmn]

No you are pursuing them to get their tag number...

Chris

How can you be certain of that?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

How can you be certain of that?


That's true. It's his word against a criminals only..God knows these days a robbers' word would be more trustworthy to some...

Chris

[gldstwmn]

I was going to say that the guy committed vehicular homicide and that this was not self-defense because it was after the criminal came into his house, but since they were shooting at him at the time (didn't Chris say that?) isn't it self-defense in that case, whether he was pursuing them to begin with or not? They started shooting at him first, right? So couldn't he say that he was defending himself from the gunshots by running one of them over? Just some thoughts. :shrug:

Hillary

The self defense went out the window the minute he left his home and started pusuing them in his car.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

The self defense went out the window the minute he left his home and started pusuing them in his car.


Well self defense against the criminals' actions in his home..He had renewed self defense when he was shot at by the criminals IMO.

[gldstwmn]

That's true. It's his word against a criminals only..God knows these days a robbers' word would be more trustworthy to some...

Chris

What I'm saying to you is, would that hold up in court? This isn't my opinion, it's the law.

[estranged4life]

pursue after a suspect because in my "pissed-off-to-rage-filled-hatred" state of mind I may put some innocent person's life at stake with my carelessness to KILL the suspect.

Besides, They wouldnt make out the door cause its hard to walk when your legs and/or head is blown off yer body :nod:

Brian "I saw my Mom shoot her ex-husband after he physically assaulted her...Shot him right in the ass :nod: :lol: :laugh: My Mom, a great marksman "j.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

What I'm saying to you is, would that hold up in court? This isn't my opinion, it's the law.

Well of course there would be no proof that the man had only intent to write down their tag number. The jury or judge would have to just decide which the believe. Likely they would get charged for the robbery, threats, etc. and in my opinion in court the Mr.O'Neal guy's word (hopefully) would be believed over the criminals'

Chris

[gldstwmn]

Well self defense against the criminals' actions in his home..He had renewed self defense when he was shot at by the criminals IMO.

No, according to the law all bets were off when he got into his car. Certainly what the robbers did was wrong but so is taking the law into your own hands.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

No, according to the law all bets were off when he got into his car. Certainly what the robbers did was wrong but so is taking the law into your own hands.


So if I'm robbed..and after the robbers leave my home, I decide to go to the store. I had self defense rights while the robbers were in my home. But if while I'm driving I happen to run into the robbers again, and they shoot at me, I have no self defense? Am I bound by law to stay on lock down in my home after being robbed?

Chris

[gldstwmn]

pursue after a suspect because in my "pissed-off-to-rage-filled-hatred" state of mind I may put some innocent person's life at stake with my carelessness to KILL the suspect.



I tried to point that out earlier in the thread.

[estranged4life]

I tried to point that out earlier in the thread.

I was agreeing with ya...

Brian j.

[hypnotized]

This guy took away some scum of the Earth...good for him I say.


I agree with you 100%.

[gldstwmn]

So if I'm robbed..and after the robbers leave my home, I decide to go to the store. I had self defense rights while the robbers were in my home. But if while I'm driving I happen to run into the robbers again, and they shoot at me, I have no self defense? Am I bound by law to stay on lock down in my home after being robbed?

Chris

That's not what happened in this case. The victim lost a good deal of his rights by directly pusuing the robbers on his own with the intent to...do whatever.
This isn't about leaving home after a robbery. You're talking about someone who took the law into his own hands and endangered God knows how many people and killed someone because of it.

[gldstwmn]

I was agreeing with ya...

Brian j.

Okay. :laugh:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

That's not what happened in this case. The victim lost a good deal of his rights by directly pusuing the robbers on his own with the intent to...do whatever.
This isn't about leaving home after a robbery. You're talking about someone who took the law into his own hands and endangered God knows how many people and killed someone because of it.


Well it will be a sad day if this man is convicted...Shouldn't he get some kind of mercy for the state of mind he was in after being threatened and held at gun point? Isn't there something for that? He could plead like temporary insanity caused by the traumatic events or something...clearly he didn't sit down and think this through...wrong decision or not, under the circumstances, he did what he thought he should do..

It's the same as if someone was to kill my daughter (if I had a daughter)..I'm no longer in harm's way, my life is not being threatened nor is my daughters' anymore...If I chase the guy down and kill him, I will go to jail? That's crazy!

Chris
Chris

[EnchantedSLN]

Hero or Criminal?

Depends on how good his lawyer is.

[gldstwmn]

That's true. It's his word against a criminals only..God knows these days a robbers' word would be more trustworthy to some...

Chris

How would the robbers know why he was pursuing them? They most certainly thought he was coming to get them.

[gldstwmn]

Depends on how good his lawyer is.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

The moment he left his house intending to chase them his actions became illegal. If he knew they had guns it was actually stupid. If this is recent news I’ll bet more will surface about this story. Id be curious why he was picked to rob. Sounds like somebody knew he had the large amount of cash.

I’d contact the police but chasing them was only adding danger to something already done. A winnable defense in the home sounded impossible against those odds. If only he could have calmed them down long enough to reach a 12 gauge loaded with +P razor wire ordinance. I love it because it’s specifically loaded to incapacitate and cause maximum flesh penetration within a 6’ wide path.

Po Po might press charges but Legal Eagle can get him off. I know I’d get off because I’m ½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ® :o

[gldstwmn]

The moment he left his house intending to chase them his actions became illegal. If he knew they had guns it was actually stupid. If this is recent news I’ll bet more will surface about this story. Id be curious why he was picked to rob. Sounds like somebody knew he had the large amount of cash.



Yeah. $1500 is a lot of walking around money.

[wondergirl9847]

That movie, A Time to Kill...when those rednecks raped and almost killed that lil girl and Sam Jackson blew 'em away in front of practically everyone in town, and accidentally shot a cop, and his leg was cut off.

He got off. ;)

[amber]

irregardless... :D I think he would get off anyway. I mean, carry on with your discussion, but that's what i think the end result would be... :wavey: