I'm an "undecided"...convince me. [Archive]

Violet

10-26-2004, 03:02 PM

I had planned on voting for Bush, but the last few days I've been reconsidering. Since there are so many Dems on this board, I thought I'd give y'all a chance to convince me to vote for Kerry.

If it helps you to know where I stand on some things okay:
--I'm okay with stem cell research, but I don't think that makes late term abortions okay.
--I'm all for gay marriage. In fact, I performed a committment ceremoney for a friend when I lived in FL.
--No throwing things at me, but I supported the war in Iraq. But I also feel it's time for our troops to come home.
--I'm middle class

I have one request, though. Don't bash Bush. That's not gonna convince me, and it will probably make me skip the post. I want to know what Kerry will do; not what Bush has done/hasn't done/should do/won't do, etc. I want to know how Kerry will keep us safe, how he's going to pay for all these wonderful things he's promised, if he plans on going after bin laden. I kept hearing him say during the debates what he's gonna do, but never heard him say how.

Oh, one more thing. Keep it simple. I took an Indian neonatologist's depo and I've had enough big words for a while. :p

So have at it. Sell me on Kerry.

Thanks, guys!
Carol

amber

10-26-2004, 03:07 PM

Well, why were you going to vote for Bush? I can't tell from your post what you do agree with him about...Is it because you think Bush will keep us safe?
:wavey:
AMber

Violet

10-26-2004, 03:17 PM

amber

10-26-2004, 03:18 PM

strandinthewind

10-26-2004, 03:26 PM

I think you should vote for Kerry because he is more even tempered than W.

I think Kerry is smarter and more experienced than W.

I think W and Cheney both avoided going to Vietnam but have no qualms about sending other peoples' children to war on a false premise, not listening to the advice of their Generals and sending too few troops, and then not having a plan to win the peace in Iraq or, apparently, to secure the munitions sites once we got there.

I think if you are for civil liberties as you say you are, you must realize W will most certainly push to ban a woman's right to choose, any rights at all afforded to gay people, and any rights at all left in the Const.'s prohibition against unreasonable and warrantless searches and seizures.

I think Kerry is not for any of those things and W is. So, I think if you are okay with the foregoing, then you should vote for W. If not, then vote for Kerry.

I voted for Kerry because I think Kerry can and will protect us, but he will not foolheartedly rush into a conflict that we do not have to fight. Again, Kerry and the Senate gave W the authorization to use force in Iraq as a last resort. W betrayed that authorization and went in before the UN inspections, which were finally working, could be completed in about three or so months. W could not wait for that. Then, after saying SH was an immediate and exigent threat and his admin. said they "knew" where the WMD were in order to sell the war, it all turns out to have been a lie. Over 1,000 American soldiers payed the price of their lives for that lie and 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi's (the people we are supposed to care enough about to liberate) are dead because of it.

I hope that helps!!!!

Tone: Not an in your face kind of way :cool:

dissention

10-26-2004, 03:26 PM

--I'm okay with stem cell research, but I don't think that makes late term abortions okay.

George Bush does not support stem cell research. The only embryos he has made available for stem cell research are damaged ones, hardly the cream of the crop. That, in turn, taints any kind of research that comes out of testing. All of the cells available under the Bush policy were originally grown on what is known as a "feeder layer" of mouse cells, making their therapeutic value uncertain. The Bush policy prevents federally funded scientists from conducting research on stem cells grown without this contamination.

Kerry believes in supporting stem cell research. He wants to expand the stem cell policies by making clean embryos available, along with more federal support. From the Kerry webpage on stem cell research:

"John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research. Stem cells hold enormous promise for the development of new treatments for the most devastating diseases. John Kerry and John Edwards believe our medical researchers should be permitted and encouraged to simultaneously pursue embryonic stem cell research. As president, John Kerry will overturn the ban on federal funding of research on new stem cell lines, and he will allow doctors and scientists to explore their full potential with the appropriate ethical oversight. Patients and their families should no longer be denied the hope that this new research brings."

--I'm all for gay marriage. In fact, I performed a committment ceremoney for a friend when I lived in FL.

George Bush wants to ban gay marriage nationally instead of allowing states to decide. His administration also doesn't believe that gay men and women should have equal pay in the workplace. He once said that AIDS was not a disease. Out of all the money he has said he would give to stop the spread of AIDS, so far he has only given $300 million, billions short of what he promised.

While John kerry does not believe in gay marriage, he does not believe that the federal government should impose the rights of the states and ban it. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act of 1998, one of very few senators who had the balls to do so.

--No throwing things at me, but I supported the war in Iraq. But I also feel it's time for our troops to come home.

George Bush CUT combat pay for the soldiers in Iraq, he CUT benefits for them, and he CUT aid for their families back at home. He has also CUT veterans benefits for all veterans and has given the go ahead to closing three VA hospitals.

--I'm middle class

90% of all the wealth in this country belongs to 1% of the population. When he cut taxes, who benefitted more? The people who make $25,000 a year or the people who made millions? The people who made millions. In fact, over 80% of the tax cut went to the wealthiest one percent of the population...the same people who already own 90% of all wealth. Bush is also in favor of getting rid of the income tax and instead replacing it with a flat federal sales tax. Tha twould mean a federal sales tax of around 20%, plus 5-10% for state and local taxes, meaning that you would pay about 30 cents on the dollar for taxed products

Now, at JohnKerry.com, he lays out every plan he has for the country and the issues. Go here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

When you click on an issue, it will give you some background info on that particular issue and what he believes. As you scroll down whatever issue you click, on the right side of the screen you will see a box that says "_________ Plans." Click on a particular plan and it will be laid out for you. Go there and check them out because they lay everything out!

Violet

10-26-2004, 03:27 PM

No, you said you "had planned on voting for Bush" and I wanted to know why, since the few positions you posted that you had did not agree with Bush. If i was gonna convince you, i had to find out what you care about, see?
AMber

Oh! oops...told you my brain is fried. :]
Well, see I'm a Republican and have NEVER voted democrat. And like I said, I like bush as a person. Sorry, but that's important to me. And I think the few things I mentioned were more to show that I'm kind of a liberal republican.

The thing that concerns me most is being safe. That's my biggest thing. I'm thrilled we took out sadam. I read somewhere (please don't ask me to quote where because I'm not gonna take the time to look it up) that Clinton had the chance to get bin laden and he didn't. That scares the bejeebies outta me.

My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Carol

strandinthewind

10-26-2004, 03:29 PM

George Bush does not support stem cell research. The only embryos he has made available for stem cell research are damaged ones, hardly the cream of the crop. That, in turn, taints any kind of research that comes out of testing. All of the cells available under the Bush policy were originally grown on what is known as a "feeder layer" of mouse cells, making their therapeutic value uncertain. The Bush policy prevents federally funded scientists from conducting research on stem cells grown without this contamination.

Kerry believes in supporting stem cell research. He wants to expand the stem cell policies by making clean embryos available, along with more federal support. From the Kerry webpage on stem cell research:

"John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research. Stem cells hold enormous promise for the development of new treatments for the most devastating diseases. John Kerry and John Edwards believe our medical researchers should be permitted and encouraged to simultaneously pursue embryonic stem cell research. As president, John Kerry will overturn the ban on federal funding of research on new stem cell lines, and he will allow doctors and scientists to explore their full potential with the appropriate ethical oversight. Patients and their families should no longer be denied the hope that this new research brings."

George Bush wants to ban gay marriage nationally instead of allowing states to decide. His administration also doesn't believe that gay men and women should have equal pay in the workplace. He once said that AIDS was not a disease. Out of all the money he has said he would give to stop the spread of AIDS, so far he has only given $300 million, billions short of what he promised.

While John kerry does not believe in gay marriage, he does not believe that the federal government should impose the rights of the states and ban it. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act of 1998, one of very few senators who had the balls to do so.

George Bush CUT combat pay for the soldiers in Iraq, he CUT benefits for them, and he CUT aid for their families back at home. He has also CUT veterans benefits for all veterans and has given the go ahead to closing three VA hospitals.

90% of all the wealth in this country belongs to 1% of the population. When he cut taxes, who benefitted more? The people who make $25,000 a year or the people who made millions? The people who made millions. In fact, over 80% of the tax cut went to the wealthiest one percent of the population...the same people who already own 90% of all wealth. Bush is also in favor of getting rid of the income tax and instead replacing it with a flat federal sales tax. Tha twould mean a federal sales tax of around 20%, plus 5-10% for state and local taxes, meaning that you would pay about 30 cents on the dollar for taxed products

Now, at JohnKerry.com, he lays out every plan he has for the country and the issues. Go here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

When you click on an issue, it will give you some background info on that particular issue and what he believes. As you scroll down whatever issue you click, on the right side of the screen you will see a box that says "_________ Plans." Click on a particular plan and it will be laid out for you. Go there and check them out because they lay everything out!

Well said my friend - well said!!!! :xoxo:

dissention

10-26-2004, 03:30 PM

Mainly because I want people to tell me why I should vote for Kerry; not why I shouldn't vote for bush. Does that make sense? Why did I vote for bush the first time? I like him as a person :ducks head: for one thing. I can't stand Clinton, and I found Gore boring. I don't remember exactly I liked bush more than gore, except that gore didn't impress me during the debates or anything. I watched the campaign then and knew I wanted to vote for bush. This time I'm wishy-washy...

Carol

Here's my two cents, don't spend it all in one place ( :laugh: ):

We've all seen what has happened in the last four years. I personally think it has done such incredible damage to our country that it will take a miracle to even begin repairing it. While you may like Bush as a person, look at his policies. Are you and the country better off than when Clinton was in office? Economically speaking, I say no. Socially speaking, I say no. When it comes to foreign policy? No way. It's the kind of election where you simply cannot vote for who you like better as a person, you have to vote for the person who will actually do something good while in office. :)

strandinthewind

10-26-2004, 03:33 PM

. . . My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Carol

I am uncertain if Kerry will raise the taxes on the Middle Class. I think he has said he just wants to repeal the tax cuts for the people making $200,000 or more a year and he thinks the tax cuts scheduled to go into effect in the future or something like that should not be effectuated. He has a point because W cut taxes, which many but not all believe is an effective catalyst to promote economic growth. The problem is W then spent all of our money and went into debt. So, we cannot afford the future tax cuts. It would sort of be like taking a cut in pay and then maxing out all of your credit cards based on the hope that you get a slight raise in five years. That kind of economic policy is too liberal for me. Thus, I could not vote for W.

Violet

10-26-2004, 03:39 PM

Tone: Not an in your face kind of way :cool:

I knew you'd be one of the first to respond!
Totally not taken in an in-your-face kind of way! :xoxo:

I've read what you've said and will consider it all. I appreciate it, really.

And I admit I didn't watch all of the debates, and I'd like to know how Kerry plans to keep us safe. Like I told Amber, that's my biggest thing.

Carol (anxiously awaiting Dissention's post)
(oops again! Dissention must have posted while I was reading Strand's. I KNEW you two would be on top of this!) :xoxo:

dissention

10-26-2004, 03:40 PM

The thing that concerns me most is being safe. That's my biggest thing. I'm thrilled we took out sadam. I read somewhere (please don't ask me to quote where because I'm not gonna take the time to look it up) that Clinton had the chance to get bin laden and he didn't. That scares the bejeebies outta me.

The Clinton rumor has been debunked ten times over, it NEVER happened.

As for keeping us safe, I don't know what to say. :laugh: I don't want to piss you off because you like Bush, but what has he done to make us safe? Just this week it was reported that 400 tons of explosives just, poof, vanished into the air in Iraq, leaving no trace. He was asked about it today and he refused to comment. Colin Powell said he has no clue what's going on.

On August 6, 2001, he got a Presidential Daily Briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined To Strike Inside United States," wherein it stated he was going to hijack planes. Common sense says that you need to leap into action, but he stayed on vacation in Texas. He didn't get back to work until September 10th. Before Clinton left office, he told Bush that Al-Qaeda was the biggest threat, but Richard Clarke testified under oath that Bush disregarded everyhting about Al-Qaeda and concentrated solely on Iraq.

90% of all cargo that is brought into the US is NOT INSPECTED. People are allowed to bring four books of matches and two butane lighters onto commercial aircrafts...even after 9/11.

I don't think he's done a single thing to make us safer. He didn't go into Afghanistan until TWO MONTHS after 9/11. Obviously bin Laden was outta there.

My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Kerry only wants to raise taxes on the top 1%, the same as Clinton. He wants to keep the tax cuts for the middle class.

dissention

10-26-2004, 03:45 PM

I am uncertain if Kerry will raise the taxes on the Middle Class. I think he has said he just wants to repeal the tax cuts for the people making $200,000 or more a year and he thinks the tax cuts scheduled to go into effect in the future or something like that should not be effectuated. He has a point because W cut taxes, which many but not all believe is an effective catalyst to promote economic growth. The problem is W then spent all of our money and went into debt. So, we cannot afford the future tax cuts. It would sort of be like taking a cut in pay and then maxing out all of your credit cards based on the hope that you get a slight raise in five years. That kind of economic policy is too liberal for me. Thus, I could not vote for W.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/economy/

Cut Middle-Class Taxes To Raise Middle-Class Incomes
When John Kerry is president, middle-class taxes will go down. Ninety-eight percent of all Americans and 99 percent of American businesses will get a tax cut under the Kerry-Edwards plan.

Create Good-Paying Jobs
As president, John Kerry will cut taxes for businesses that create jobs here in America instead of moving them overseas. John Kerry and John Edwards will also stand up for workers by enforcing our trade agreements.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0423.html

I will reform out of control spending by putting in place budget caps that assure Washington has to live within its means. I will cut waste and abuse out of our health care system by giving incentives for smarter more efficient systems.

I will reform corporate America by requiring corporations to report to their shareholders and what they report to the IRS. And I will reform our tax code by ending incentives for companies to send jobs overseas.

Government should take less money from the middle class, and do more to make sure their hard-earned tax dollars go to solve their real problems.

My plan will cut taxes to help middle-class families send their children to college, but it also includes reforms to make college affordable again, after three years of the steepest tuition inflation on record.

We need to take these steps to help our working families and we need to make sure that they are paid for. And I will pay for my education and health care plans by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

dissention

10-26-2004, 03:46 PM

Carol (anxiously awaiting Dissention's post)
(oops again! Dissention must have posted while I was reading Strand's. I KNEW you two would be on top of this!) :xoxo:

Like white on rice. :xoxo:

strandinthewind

10-26-2004, 09:10 PM

LOL - Carol - it is so funny because Diss and I agree on the large issues and fight to the death :laugh: :rolleyes: in the minutia (sp.?)

:cool:

But seriously, I think W has not done a whole lot other than talk tough. As Bill Maher said, any idiot could have pointed to Afganistan and told the world's most powerful military to detroy it, which essentially is what W did. AND - I willingly admit that mission captured a significant number of OBL's main people, which was a good thing and made us on the whole safer. My problem with W on this issue is:

1. He let 9/11 happen - the buck stops with him whether the peices of the puzzle could have ever been put together or not, which is a hotly debated issue. But, assuming they could not, W has never even said he was sorry to the American people for letting it happen. He just assumes it was not his fault.

2. He allegedly had OBL in Tora Bora and caved into political pressure from Pakistan not to use them as a tool to get OBL. I think that shows weakness to a much larger degree than Kerry has ever shown.

3. Iraq. Like you, I was all for doing something about SH, because like W, Clinton, Kerry, and the unanimous UN - I thought SH was too dangerous a variable to leave unchecked and unaccountable to the first Gulf War accord where he agreed to prove he had disarmed. My beef with Iraq is W's almost rabid and inexplicable mad rush to remove SH. W could have waited a few more months for the UN inspections to end and maybe all of the those lives could have been spared - maybe the world would have gotten behind us, which could have averted war. I think that was a long shot, but three moths for 10's of thousands of lives - I'll wait that anyday, especially since W knew that SH was not the exigent nuclear threat W knowingly and erroneously alleged. Then, our troops were ill prepared as evidenced by the prison torturers, ill equipped as evidenced by parents selling personal items to buy bullet proof vests and other needed items, and ill planned as evidenced by the utter turmoil in Iraq right now and the loss of like 300 tons of munitions that the UN told the US was there and to watch it. I mean those are HUGE mistakes which probably could have been avoided with more planning and training, which W inexplicably just refused to do.

4. I have a huge problem with someone who willingly lies to send other peoples' kids to their deaths in the name of our nation when he himself refused to go overseas and do the same. Moreover, Cheney himself got several deferrments because because he said he had "better things to do." I mean that is an outrage to me. And these people are the ones who are supposed to be the fearless and unflinching leaders they tout themselves as. Conversely, Kerry volunterred to go into battle. I know there is an alleged issue surrounding the severity of his wounds, but all of those medals certainly could not have been forged. Moreover, Kerry went while W and Dick played possum. I think that more than anything shows bravery and integrity on Kerry's behalf and none on the behalf of W and Dick.

That is why I think W cannot keep us safe and Kerry can :cool:

estranged4life

10-26-2004, 10:10 PM

undecided, Just something makes me NOT want to vote for Herman-Munster even though I do like Edwards (Shrub/Dick is outta the question)...So I will more-than-likely vote for the Green party candidates.

I am more interested in the state laws that are on the ballot for Oklahoma...Most should pass (Including the lameass state lottery question) except the law to add an amendment to legalize gay marriage (Currently about 77% of Oklahomans are against this law...Well the 2 straight married adults in this household are voting for it to pass, So we are in the very small minority!)

Btw, Brad Carson is now behind in the polls here for the US Senate with Tom Coburn pulling ahead...Not good news for those Demos who are wanting control of the US Senate.

Brian j.

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 12:30 AM

I read somewhere (please don't ask me to quote where because I'm not gonna take the time to look it up) that Clinton had the chance to get bin laden and he didn't. Carol

That's a lie.

Frankly, I have to tell you that it's quite irritating to me that you are too lazy to do a simple search of this board, read the paper, watch television, etc. and make an informed decision for yourself and then come here and ask people to convince you to vote for Kerry one week before the most important election in our lifetimes.
It is precisely this mindset in our country that has landed us where we are today-less safe, in debt, all of our good jobs being sent off overseas, civil rights being eroded, social programs for the poor and working poor being slashed.
With respect to your $400 tax break-enjoy it because you are paying dearly for it in many ways. Have you noticed the price of food and gas recently? Are you comfortable that our borders are unprotected and all of the cargo coming into this country is unscreened because there is no money to pay for it? Does that make you feel safer?
What is it that you like so much about Bush? Is it the fact that he's pro life, yet executed 160 people while governor of Texas? Was it his performance in the debates? How about lying to get us into an illegal war? We got Saddam, yeah. The f*cker wasn't going anywhere. We had him cornered. You know what would really impress me? Finding Osama Bin Laden-but your "friend" George isn't interested in finding him, says he doesn't care where he is. Pro military, support the troops do you? Geroge Bush was AWOL, Dick Cheney had FIVE deferrments and John Ashcroft had SEVEN. They had other priorities, I guess.
Did you mention you just took some kind of exam? Studying medicine? Nursing? Guess what? If your "friend" George gets elected, YOU WIN A FREE TRIP TO IRAQ! :] That's right. People with medical skills will be drafted for the huge casualties we are going to suffer in the ensuing massive battles post election so George and Haliburton can win the war! Woohoo! Hell, you might even get to see Iran or Syria for free too!
Now before this thread gets up to 100 posts, I must admit, Carol, Violet, whatever your name is, your writing style seems hauntingly familiar to me. So please, if in your heart, you are serioulsy having doubts about incurious George, do your homework. This is serious. :)

amber

10-27-2004, 12:34 AM

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 12:46 AM

Btw, Brad Carson is now behind in the polls here for the US Senate with Tom Coburn pulling ahead...Not good news for those Demos who are wanting control of the US Senate.

Brian j.

Oh Jesus. He did it to himself by saying he wasn't running on the Dem ticket and all that other whacked out behavior of the last few weeks. Hopefully, Jim Bunning will lose his seat in Kentucky since he's too senile to debate or speak in public. :rolleyes:
I do not wish "Dr. Death" Coburn on anyone.
Please do not waste your vote in this election on a third party candidate. It translates into absolutely nothing. JMHO.

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 01:59 AM

Oh Jesus. He did it to himself by saying he wasn't running on the Dem ticket and all that other whacked out behavior of the last few weeks. Hopefully, Jim Bunning will lose his seat in Kentucky since he's too senile to debate or speak in public. :rolleyes:
I do not wish "Dr. Death" Coburn on anyone.
Please do not waste your vote in this election on a third party candidate. It translates into absolutely nothing. JMHO.

what hurt him is the new Pro-Repub ads, One which show an animated Brad Carson dancing in Washington DC with 2 people Oklahomans cannot stand:

Hill-billy Clinton & Ted "Where's the bar/Where's my drink" Kennedy

I find the commercial funny as hell cause Hill-billy looks so damn realistic...Especially her salute!!!! Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Kinda funny but I emailed Brad Carson's campaign to ask about the rumor you heard about of Carson switching parties, His campaign chairperson emailed me back saying that rumor started with Tom Coburn's chairperson as a smear tactic...And the tactic has been "erroneously" been picked up by the Democratic National Party as being a fact.

As for a vote for the independent/third party being a waste that translate into nothing, Sorry I do not see it that way...I talked to a person last night as I was pumping gas into my car and this 30-something African American male said the same thing I believe, "The candidates for President leave alot to be desired...Doesnt matter who wins, Nothing will change."

I cannot bring myself to vote for a candidate that I do not like, That being both Bush & Kerry, and I will not waste my vote that way...but it is my right and my vote to CHOOSE who I vote for, Even if it as you say "It translates into absolutely nothing" (Please do not take my post as a personal attack because it is not, I just disagree with you is all :nod: )

Brian j.

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 02:43 AM

I agree with the sentiment, and if I was in America where the two party system is in an even more dire situation than here, I might do the same. We have a couple Greens Party members holding seats and I always vote Greens for the Senate, but I'm lean towards sticking by the two party system in the House of Reps, only because it's a little more optimistic here. I might be the only Australian that's still excited about the fact that Peter Garrett (formerly of Midnight Oil) has taken a seat for Labor, our version of the Democrats.

is no longer a member of Midnight Oil? I didnt know that...I liked his political activism, Only one of the few musicians who activism I care to read about (With John Lennon, Bob Geldof & Bono being the others).

Brian j.

ps-Offtopic-Hey Lux, Are ya going to purchase the "Page & Plant Unledded" DVD? It was released yesterday and plan to purchase it...

strandinthewind

10-27-2004, 08:07 AM

Lord this thread has gone from Zeppelin to abortion - :laugh:

In sum and to paraphrase a wonderfully pithy friend of mine "I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would help defeat W" :eek: :laugh: :wavey: :angel:

DrummerDeanna

10-27-2004, 09:34 AM

strandinthewind

10-27-2004, 09:49 AM

And the Bush camp. knows that that is one of the top things on the minds of Americans - they are therefore using fear as a campaign tactic....and that sucks - because it's a powerful tool - playing on people's fears....

and - it just boggles my mind that people are so willing to give W a free pass on failing to prevent 9/11. The evidence was there - they just failed to put it all together. While I readily admit, it would have taken a lot of breaks and luck to do so, the Bush Adminsitration by all accounts of the people who were there, were not really concentrating on Al-Q and instead were looking at ways to invade Iraq. So, some fault must be assigned to them. AND - what do they say about that - they certainly did not apologize or even seem contrite. THEN - they did not learn from their mistake in that instead of continuing to pursue Al-Q (the people that attacked us here and elsewhere) - they refocused on Iraq and went into a wqar that perhaps could have been prevented and most certainly was based on a false premise (immediate threat to the U.S. if SH was not removed) - yet, once again, they were wrong and did they apologize - no. Instead, they justify the death of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's (again we are there because the common Iraqi is our friend and we are trying to help them) and over 1,000 U.S. soldiers with countless others on all sides severly injured - by saying America was justified because SH was a "bad guy" - That excuse fails with me and I am appalled anyone would accept it, esp. considering W said he would not go to war on ANY resaon other than the case where Amercia was in immediate danger from a direct threat :shrug:

Then, the whole post-Iraq scenario has been a total scew up from day one, which again, could have been somewhat avoided if we had taken our time and actually prepared to go into Iraq. Alas, W did not and now we are paying the price for it.

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 10:48 AM

I gather it can't really work that way in the US because the candidate is chosen and then they pick their cabinet.....right? I'm not entirely familiar.

.

That is correct. :nod:

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 10:58 AM

"The candidates for President leave alot to be desired...Doesnt matter who wins, Nothing will change."
Brian j.

Make no mistake, I am not against the Greens or any other third party. but there are a few things to consider. Democracy begins from the ground up. The best way to change the system is to start at the bottom, build a strong base and then get your cnadidates elected to a national office. It's pretty offensive to me that some of our tax dollars will be spent of federal matching funds to help these people mount their campaigns when they have no chance in winning and some of them are present as spoilers in the race.
By thinking that there is nothing you or I or anyone can do-"Doesnt matter who wins, Nothing will change."-that is the ultimate capitulation. That is right where they want us, cynical, divided and without hope.

Livia

10-27-2004, 11:23 AM

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 12:19 PM

Make no mistake, I am not against the Greens or any other third party. but there are a few things to consider. Democracy begins from the ground up. The best way to change the system is to start at the bottom, build a strong base and then get your cnadidates elected to a national office. It's pretty offensive to me that some of our tax dollars will be spent of federal matching funds to help these people mount their campaigns when they have no chance in winning and some of them are present as spoilers in the race.

By thinking that there is nothing you or I or anyone can do-"Doesnt matter who wins, Nothing will change."-that is the ultimate capitulation. That is right where they want us, cynical, divided and without hope.

but I feel that a 2 party system has made some of us divided & without hope...While both may have good ideas and thoughts when it comes down to the brass tacks, Their ideas will only cover those who line up behind those beliefs of each individual party.

The 2 party system reminds me of shopping for music, (I will use this as my comparison) When I shop for music I usually tend to buy what is good to my ears, Not what is currently the "flavor of the week" or trendy for the moment...I decide what I like, Not some 'suit behind a desk hoping for the next big cookie cutting pile of dog**** trend'.

It seems politics as of late has become too devisive, Like music, Whereas ya have "Conservatives", "Liberals", "Independents", "Anarchists", etc and with music ya have genres-"Pop", "Country", "Rap", "Rock", etc. When ya shop for music it is because you like what you hear, Not because you are being led to like what the corporates want you to like to benefit their labels (Or as in this country what the political system wants you to like to benefit their parties.)

If you tend to listen to a certain genre of music, Be it "Pop", "County", "Rap", etc. Sure 'nuff yer goin' to find someone who will jump on yer tastes because it conflicts with their personal tastes...They will constantly bombard yer ass until ya line up behind that lemmin gravy train and give in. Sorry, I cannot do that...Seems the same thing with politics, Yer bombarded "Over & Over" until yer the next lemmin in line goin' over that "big ol' cliff", I cannot do that either.

"I have this moronic thing I do, It's called thinking. I like to think and formulate opinions and thoughts for myself"-George Carlin

Brian j.

DeeGeMe

10-27-2004, 12:42 PM

I don't usually get involved in these threads, but here goes:

Violet, have you seen Fahrenheit 9-11? Yes, it may be a slanted viewpoint of Michael Moore's, but it's a lot more factual than the Bush administration has been with America. I don't like being lied to. Period. I've always been a Democrat, however, even I was a lifelong Republican? After seeing F 9-11, I would want Bush and his entire administration out of the white house asap.

You shouldn't base your vote on "I like his personality and that other guy looks like Herman Munster," or whatever...I'm sure George Bush would be a lot of fun to go fishing with and hang out and drink with, etc. (which is what he does best) But he and his entire administration must go!!

And Fahrenheit 9-11 isn't exactly flattering towards the Democrats either-no matter what you might have heard from Repugs attacking Michael Moore. When I saw it for the first time, I left the theater so angry that I wanted to vote for Nader. Diss famously asked me had I been smoking crack after I posted my review of the documentary here and expressed that feeling here on the Ledge. He however successfully talked me down from my redheaded fit and made me return to sanity and firmly commit to the Democrats once again. I'd suggest everyone see it, no matter what their political orientation. It makes you think and isn't that what documentaries are supposed to do?

Violet

10-27-2004, 12:44 PM

That's a lie.

Frankly, I have to tell you that it's quite irritating to me that you are too lazy to do a simple search of this board, read the paper, watch television, etc. and make an informed decision for yourself and then come here and ask people to convince you to vote for Kerry one week before the most important election in our lifetimes.
It is precisely this mindset in our country that has landed us where we are today-less safe, in debt, all of our good jobs being sent off overseas, civil rights being eroded, social programs for the poor and working poor being slashed.
With respect to your $400 tax break-enjoy it because you are paying dearly for it in many ways. Have you noticed the price of food and gas recently? Are you comfortable that our borders are unprotected and all of the cargo coming into this country is unscreened because there is no money to pay for it? Does that make you feel safer?
What is it that you like so much about Bush? Is it the fact that he's pro life, yet executed 160 people while governor of Texas? Was it his performance in the debates? How about lying to get us into an illegal war? We got Saddam, yeah. The f*cker wasn't going anywhere. We had him cornered. You know what would really impress me? Finding Osama Bin Laden-but your "friend" George isn't interested in finding him, says he doesn't care where he is. Pro military, support the troops do you? Geroge Bush was AWOL, Dick Cheney had FIVE deferrments and John Ashcroft had SEVEN. They had other priorities, I guess.
Did you mention you just took some kind of exam? Studying medicine? Nursing? Guess what? If your "friend" George gets elected, YOU WIN A FREE TRIP TO IRAQ! :] That's right. People with medical skills will be drafted for the huge casualties we are going to suffer in the ensuing massive battles post election so George and Haliburton can win the war! Woohoo! Hell, you might even get to see Iran or Syria for free too!
Now before this thread gets up to 100 posts, I must admit, Carol, Violet, whatever your name is, your writing style seems hauntingly familiar to me. So please, if in your heart, you are serioulsy having doubts about incurious George, do your homework. This is serious. :)

Wow...First of all, I haven't read further than your post, yet. And I'm not going to respond to everything you said.
I will answer a few questions you had. No, I didn't take exam. Depo is short for deposition. I'm a court reporter and took a deposition of a neonatologist.

Second (going out of order of your post, sorry) I have NO idea why my writing style seems hauntingly familiar. If I remind you of someone somewhere you didn't like, sorry, but it's not me.

I am trying to do my homework; hence my post. Is it a little late in the game? Yes. Sorry about that, too. Like I said in my first post, I am just starting to question whether I'll vote for Bush or not. So I am trying to find out more about Kerry. I have already read all the negative things people on this board feel about bush, and that's why I asked for positives on Kerry. I don't watch a lot of news because my husband is in the business, and I'm too jaded to believe most of what is aired.

As for the price of food and gas, duh. of course i've noticed gas has gone up. But as for food, I can't really say I've noticed because I moved from FL to NJ and EVERYTHING is more expensive here.

Oh, and thanks for calling me lazy for not looking up prior posts. I was looking for specific info on Kerry, not bush bashing. Guess I should have known I'd get it anyway.

Going to read the other two pages of posts. I couldn't get on the Ledge last night. So I have to catch up.

Carol (my real name. Violet is my cat's name)

strandinthewind

10-27-2004, 12:48 PM

so, have we convinced you?

DeeGeMe

10-27-2004, 12:51 PM

Here--this is from DailyKos.com and he summarizes this better than I can.

1. Kerry is the only candidate in the race with significant experience in both domestic policy and foreign policy. He won't need much "on-the-job training" in any field; he'll be able to hit the ground running, as it were.

2. Kerry has the best environmental record of all the candidates. He has a 96% lifetime rating from the League of Conservation Voters and earned the earliest endorsement they've ever given in a Presidential race. Some specific highlights of his environmental record include leading the fight against Republican attempts to weaken the Clean Air Act, being one of the first to threaten and then organize a filibuster against recent Republican attempts to allow drilling in ANWR, and authoring important 1994 amendments to the 1972 Marine Mammal Protection Act and a 1990 law to protect marine mammals from driftnet fishing. (People who think he's exaggerated his role on these issues should ask themselves why the LCV would have endorsed him so enthusiastically and so early if that were the case.) There's a lot more, though; those who are interested can look at LCV's summary webpage on him or the more lengthy PDF profile it links to.

3. Kerry has a solidly liberal overall voting record that's earned him a 93% lifetime rating from Americans for Democratic Action. For those who want a specific example of an important vote for an unpopular liberal cause, note that he voted against the Defense of Marriage Act-- which even Paul Wellstone voted for. He also voted against the 2001 Bush tax cuts, contrary to the claims some have made here.

4. Kerry's record has an element of economic moderate-ness very consistent with the successful Clintonian recipe for economic growth. He voted for not only Clinton's 1993 deficit-cutting budget but also the 1980s Gramm-Rudman-Hollings deficit-control law, and he favors free trade, albeit with labor and environmental protections built into any new trade agreements we sign.

5. Kerry's tax plan gets rid of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, but not those for the middle class. The middle of the Bush recession is not the most economically appropriate time to raise taxes significantly on most consumers; repealing the tax cuts for the wealthy is sufficient to get rid of most of the distributional unfairness from the Bush tax cuts and get back a decent portion of the lost revenue.

6. Kerry has more of a record of accomplishment in the Senate than a lot of people think. He spearheaded important investigations into the Iran-Contra affair and the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, taking on Republican administrations in the process. He's authored successful environment-related bills, cosponsored others, and played leading roles in the fights against rolling back many existing environmental laws, as mentioned in #4. In any case, I can't think offhand of many legislators with more than a couple of specific accomplishments in their names; most of being a legislator is working on and voting on bills that other people have officially authored. And in that respect, Kerry has done a lot of good over the years, as evidenced by his ADA and LCV ratings.

7. Kerry's Vietnam war experience means that he knows what war is really like, unlike the various Republican "chickenhawks". And Kerry's heroism as an officer during the war shows that as an executive leader in a crisis, he can make quick and courageous decisions.

8. Kerry's health-care proposal combines coverage for more Americans with a plan to control rising healthcare costs. I've been unable to track down the relevant link so far, but my recollection is that for this reason it got the highest rating of all the candidates' plans from some nonpartisan group that looked at the plans last fall.

Violet

10-27-2004, 12:53 PM

so, have we convinced you?

Gees! It hasn't even been 24 hours since my first post! As gldstwmn so eloquently said, I need to be more informed! So I will be going to John Kerry's website today. As well as talking to relatives who plan to vote for Kerry. Believe it or not, The Ledge isn't the only resource I have! :wavey:

Carol

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 01:41 PM

but I feel that a 2 party system has made some of us divided & without hope...While both may have good ideas and thoughts when it comes down to the brass tacks, Their ideas will only cover those who line up behind those beliefs of each individual party.

The 2 party system reminds me of shopping for music, (I will use this as my comparison) When I shop for music I usually tend to buy what is good to my ears, Not what is currently the "flavor of the week" or trendy for the moment...I decide what I like, Not some 'suit behind a desk hoping for the next big cookie cutting pile of dog**** trend'.

It seems politics as of late has become too devisive, Like music, Whereas ya have "Conservatives", "Liberals", "Independents", "Anarchists", etc and with music ya have genres-"Pop", "Country", "Rap", "Rock", etc. When ya shop for music it is because you like what you hear, Not because you are being led to like what the corporates want you to like to benefit their labels (Or as in this country what the political system wants you to like to benefit their parties.)

If you tend to listen to a certain genre of music, Be it "Pop", "County", "Rap", etc. Sure 'nuff yer goin' to find someone who will jump on yer tastes because it conflicts with their personal tastes...They will constantly bombard yer ass until ya line up behind that lemmin gravy train and give in. Sorry, I cannot do that...Seems the same thing with politics, Yer bombarded "Over & Over" until yer the next lemmin in line goin' over that "big ol' cliff", I cannot do that either.

"I have this moronic thing I do, It's called thinking. I like to think and formulate opinions and thoughts for myself"-George Carlin
Brian j.

Interesting point. However, this year, I feel, it is not just about what appeals to your particular ear. We truly, this time, are all in this together and must approach it as such. The greater good of our country is at stake here.

strandinthewind

10-27-2004, 01:46 PM

Interesting point. However, this year, I feel, it is not just about what appeals to your particular ear. We truly, this time, are all in this together and must approach it as such. The greater good of our country is at stake here.

I agree - the effect of four more years of "guns a blarin shoot now and ask questions later - Christian America is the only important thing in the world - bring on the rapture we are ready for it" Bush is so devastating I would vote for a hole in a tree if I thought it could defeat W. Fortunately, Kerry is better than a hole in a tree :laugh: :rolleyes:

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 01:47 PM

Wow...First of all, I haven't read further than your post, yet. And I'm not going to respond to everything you said.

That's okay. My main intent was to provoke thought.

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 02:07 PM

I agree - the effect of four more years of "guns a blarin shoot now and ask questions later - Christian America is the only important thing in the world - bring on the rapture we are ready for it" Bush is so devastating I would vote for a hole in a tree if I thought it could defeat W. Fortunately, Kerry is better than a hole in a tree :laugh: :rolleyes:

don't give 'em any ideas...Bad enough I have to live in the heart of the Bible belt and have to see these "F**ktards" on a daily basis & their "master plan for God, the Bible & Halliburton" world domination schemes :nod:

As for me, I still like the ol' saying "Anybody but Bush"...And yes, That means ANY independent is better than "Moses' burnin' Shrub"!!!! (Kinda funny cause my Mother's family name is Moses...Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!)

Brian "W. was on Mt.Cyanide and God spoke through a burning SHRUB" j.

amber

10-27-2004, 02:26 PM

Interesting point. However, this year, I feel, it is not just about what appeals to your particular ear. We truly, this time, are all in this together and must approach it as such. The greater good of our country is at stake here.
We are, but that's the way people are always discouraged from voting outside one of the big two. And I think until everyone starts voting for who they really want - that races will still always be dominated by the big ONE party, big money, which is what both parties really cater to. The parties are highly flawed, and there won't be actual change unless people start voting for actual change. Which means voting outside the parties.
I will be voting for Kerry, but isn't the greater good always at stake? But we keep only having the choice of voting for one of two greater bads. And we always have to vote for big money.
AMber

JohnL

10-27-2004, 02:41 PM

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 02:48 PM

that a vote for any other party other than Democrat or Republican is giving the edge to the Republicans. The race is so close that if you are absolutely sure you want rid of W, you need to vote for Kerry. If Bush is elected for another 4 years, it wouldnt surprise me if a lot of us aren't here to discuss the next election. He will war his way in way over his head and the US will pay.

on what state you reside in, Such as larger populated states like Ca-li-for-niE & Flori-DUH (Home of the "voting Bermuda Rectangle"), that would be true, But here in Oklahoma a vote for anyone other than Shrub will not matter in helping Kerry to win this state since polls have already predicted a Shrub win by 35% over Kerry next Tuesday.

Last Demo to win Oklahoma was the original JFK in 1960.

Brian j.

Josh2003

10-27-2004, 02:50 PM

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 03:25 PM

We are, but that's the way people are always discouraged from voting outside one of the big two. And I think until everyone starts voting for who they really want - that races will still always be dominated by the big ONE party, big money, which is what both parties really cater to. The parties are highly flawed, and there won't be actual change unless people start voting for actual change. Which means voting outside the parties.
I will be voting for Kerry, but isn't the greater good always at stake? But we keep only having the choice of voting for one of two greater bads. And we always have to vote for big money.
AMber

Please read post #30. :)

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 03:26 PM

dissention

10-27-2004, 03:51 PM

Now I'm not voting. :ducks:

Then you have no right to complain.

DrummerDeanna

10-27-2004, 03:52 PM

Please read post #30. :)

Holy Crap!! Can you believe that thanks to that post I now realize (for the first time) that posts are numbered! :eek: Wow...I feel a little moronish now :laugh:

dissention

10-27-2004, 03:53 PM

I do not feel that Kerry will be able to pay for all he's promised simply by rolling back the tax cuts for the top 1%. I think he will raise taxes on the middle class, but I suppose if he used these funds appropriately it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Yeah, and after he raises taxes on the middle-class, he'll run for re-election. :rolleyes:

His tax plan is almost identical to Clinton's and it's what we should still have. Unfortunately, Dimson is in office.

amber

10-27-2004, 03:54 PM

Please read post #30. :)
I already did :) That's the post that made me want to say what i did. :)
AMber

Johnny Stew

10-27-2004, 04:12 PM

I think one important thing to keep in mind when an incumbent is up for reelection is that we live in a representative democracy. The basic ideal of this system of government, and what our founding fathers had in mind when writing the Constitution (read some of the <i>Federalist</i> papers...amazing stuff in those things), is that elected officials should be ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE.

If you are displeased with an elected official's performance in office, you let them know when they are up for reelection, and vote for their opponent.

You, my friend, are absolutely right.

This is how I look at it... Bush has had four years to prove his worth, and what he's proven to me is that he does not deserve another four.
For me, the things he's botched far outweigh anything he's done correctly. And there aren't even that many things in the latter category to begin with!

I strongly feel that John Kerry will whole-heartedly seek to protect this country and its interests from further terrorist attacks.
I strongly feel that he will take steps to strengthen our economy.
I strongly believe that, while he won't be quite as strong on gay rights as I would like, he also won't actively seek to further deny our rights.
I strongly feel that he will work to mend our ties with Foreign countries alienated by the current administration.
And I strongly feel that he will work to stop the erosion in our country's education system.

For those reasons, Kerry has my vote. And the myriad reasons I am disappointed in the current administration, is why Bush will not.

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 04:24 PM

Holy Crap!! Can you believe that thanks to that post I now realize (for the first time) that posts are numbered! :eek: Wow...I feel a little moronish now :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Gailh

10-27-2004, 04:28 PM

I don't think this is actually any of my business because I'm British but if you wanted a view from the other side of the pond here goes.

George Bush comes across as acting like a playground bully. He acts as he pleases with no thought for any other interest except that of the US and yet he wants us all to help. (Grow a spine Tony Blair)

What was our reward for standing shoulder to shoulder with the US in Afganistan? (Correctly in my view) Tariffs slapped on our steel exports. Way to go Dubya!

I believe Kerry may be more inclusive. If America wants to lead the world it needs to take us along with it not bully us into submission. It depends whether you give a damn what the rest of the world thinks. George Bush doesn't.

Just my two penneth. Don't know if that helped or not.

Gail

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 04:37 PM

I already did :) That's the post that made me want to say what i did. :)
AMber

Alright then. I'm guessing that this is your first presidential election? Well, lucky you. Thanks to the current administration, we are not simply voting for a candidate for president. We are voting and fighting for the very life of this republic and it's democracy as well-hence my greater good comment. We cannot afford at this time in our history to try to fine tune the mechanisms of our democracy with third parties when the our way of life is at peril. They are a luxury we cannot afford this year. This country is not the country it was four years ago. And that is directly attributable to a third party.
George Bush and his neocon cronies are quite simply the most frightening, divisive and destructive group of people to EVER grace 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. We have this one opportunity to retain our democracy and way of life. There is one candidate who can realistically defeat George Bush on November 2. Anyone who is interested in the great good of all of us and realizes that we are all in this together will understand that there is only one way to vote next Tuesday. The neocons will not relinquish their power easily. It must be a clear and concise victory.

"We must hang together, or surely we shall hang separately" -- Benjamin Franklin

amber

10-27-2004, 04:40 PM

Alright then. I'm guessing that this is your first presidential election? Well, lucky you. Thanks to the current administration, we are not simply voting for a candidate for president. We are voting and fighting for the very life of this republic and it's democracy as well-hence my greater good comment. We cannot afford at this time in our history to try to fine tune the mechanisms of our democracy with third parties when the our way of life is at peril. They are a luxury we cannot afford this year. This country is not the country it was four years ago. And that is directly attributable to a third party.
George Bush and his neocon cronies are quite simply the most frightening, divisive and destructive group of people to EVER grace 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. We have this one opportunity to retain our democracy and way of life. There is one candidate who can realistically defeat George Bush on November 2. Anyone who is interested in the great good of all of us and realizes that we are all in this together will understand that there is only one way to vote next Tuesday. The neocons will not relinquish their power easily. It must be a clear and concise victory.

"We must hang together, or surely we shall hang separately" -- Benjamin Franklin
yeah, i read your post before, and in mine, I said i was voting for Kerry. Perhaps you should take another gander at my point? :) I see yours. I made a different one. And no, it's not my first election, and i have been studying history for years, and have sufficient brain power, so I don't need to be patronized. :wavey:
AMber

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 04:45 PM

Anyone who is interested in the great good of all of us and realizes that we are all in this together will understand that there is only one way to vote next Tuesday.

guess I am against the "great good of all of us" then...Even though I WILL NOT VOTE FOR BUSH!!!!!!!!

Brian j.

"I always may drown but at least I drown on my own terms."

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 04:54 PM

I don't think this is actually any of my business because I'm British but if you wanted a view from the other side of the pond here goes.

Gail

I think you absolutely have a right to voice your opinion. Your people are just as far into this Iraq debacle as we are. I just read that the Black Watch were deployed to Basra. It just makes me ill. :distress:

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 05:01 PM

yeah, i read your post before, and in mine, I said i was voting for Kerry. Perhaps you should take another gander at my point? :) I see yours. I made a different one. And no, it's not my first election, and i have been studying history for years, and have sufficient brain power, so I don't need to be patronized. :wavey:
AMber

I wrote my post knowing that you were voting for Kerry. I am not patronizing you. You asked me a question and I answered it. I merely asked if it was your first presidential election. Nothing was implied further than that.

gldstwmn

10-27-2004, 05:05 PM

guess I am against the "great good of all of us" then...Even though I WILL NOT VOTE FOR BUSH!!!!!!!!

Brian j.

"I always may drown but at least I drown on my own terms."

Drown if you must, my friend.

It must be a clear and concise victory.

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 05:07 PM

Drown if you must, my friend.

It must be a clear and concise victory.

so I am content.

amber

10-27-2004, 05:21 PM

I wrote my post knowing that you were voting for Kerry. I am not patronizing you. You asked me a question and I answered it. I merely asked if it was your first presidential election. Nothing was implied further than that.
Which question did i ask you?

Violet

10-27-2004, 06:11 PM

Violet

10-27-2004, 06:22 PM

You, my friend, are absolutely right.

This is how I look at it... Bush has had four years to prove his worth, and what he's proven to me is that he does not deserve another four.
For me, the things he's botched far outweigh anything he's done correctly. And there aren't even that many things in the latter category to begin with!

I strongly feel that John Kerry will whole-heartedly seek to protect this country and its interests from further terrorist attacks.
I strongly feel that he will take steps to strengthen our economy.
I strongly believe that, while he won't be quite as strong on gay rights as I would like, he also won't actively seek to further deny our rights.
I strongly feel that he will work to mend our ties with Foreign countries alienated by the current administration.
And I strongly feel that he will work to stop the erosion in our country's education system.

For those reasons, Kerry has my vote. And the myriad reasons I am disappointed in the current administration, is why Bush will not.

Thanks, Johnny, for stating it so plainly.

And thanks to everyone who gave me their input. I REALLY do appreciate it. Four years ago I would have thought my one little vote is just that, one vote, and doesn't make a difference. Living in FL through that whole fiasco, of course now I know differently. :rolleyes: Now I heard on the radio today that, in a poll of 850 probable voters in NJ, both Kerry and Bush got 46%. So I really do want to make a more informed decision this time.

Diss, I did go to kerry's website and read a good bit of it with interest. It's funny, but I do a LOT of research on the Internet for work, fun, shopping, etc., and I never even thought to look for johnkerry.com. DUH... :shrug:

Carol

strandinthewind

10-27-2004, 08:28 PM

Holy Crap!! Can you believe that thanks to that post I now realize (for the first time) that posts are numbered! :eek: Wow...I feel a little moronish now :laugh:

You may be foolish in fashion my dear (can you say BIRKENSTOCKS :eek: ) - but you are far from a moron :cool: :xoxo: :)

estranged4life

10-27-2004, 10:12 PM

from the new "South Park" episode tonight:

"Since the beginning of time all elections have been between a turd and a douche. Just get used to it..."

Brian "Turd Sandwich in 2004" j.

strandinthewind

10-28-2004, 05:36 AM

Try this one on for size - I mean notwithstanding W's assinine domestic policy of "gay people are ruining our society so let's give a tax break and then borrow more than we can ever pay back: :rolleyes: - this foreign policy of his just insane and he and Cheney gleefully assert it as the truth - to wit and from www. nytimes.com:

October 28, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
White House of Horrors
By MAUREEN DOWD

ick Cheney peaked too soon. We've still got a few days left until Halloween.

It was scary enough when we thought the vice president had created his own reality for spin purposes. But if he actually believes that Iraq is "a remarkable success story,'' it's downright spooky. He's already got his persona for Sunday: he's the mad scientist in the haunted mansion, fiddling with test tubes to force the world to conform to his twisted vision.

After 9/11, Mr. Cheney swirled his big black cape and hunkered down in his undisclosed dungeon, reading books about smallpox and plague and worst-case terrorist scenarios. His ghoulish imagination ran wild, and he dragged the untested president and jittery country into his house of horrors, painting a gory picture of how Iraq could let fearsome munitions fall into the hands of evildoers.

He yanked America into war to preclude that chilling bloodbath. But in a spine-tingling switch, the administration's misbegotten invasion of Iraq has let fearsome munitions fall into the hands of evildoers. It's also forged the links between Al Qaeda and the Sunni Baathists that Mr. Cheney and his crazy-eyed Igors at the Pentagon had fantasized about to justify their hunger to remake the Middle East.

It's often seen in scary movies: you play God to create something in your own image, and the monster you make ends up coming after you.

Determined to throw a good scare into the Arab world, the vice president ended up scaring up the swarm of jihadist evil spirits he had conjured, like the overreaching sorcerer in "Fantasia." The Pentagon bungled the occupation so badly, it caused the insurgency to grow like the Blob.

Just as Catherine Deneuve had bizarre hallucinations in the horror classic "Repulsion,'' Mr. Cheney and the neocons were in a deranged ideological psychosis, obsessing about imaginary weapons while allowing enemies to spirit the real ones away.

The officials charged with protecting us set off so many false alarms that they ignored all the real ones.

President Bush is like one of the blissfully ignorant teenagers in "Friday the 13th'' movies, spouting slogans like "Freedom is on the march'' while Freddy Krueger is in the closet, ready to claw his skin off.

Mr. Bush ignored his own experts' warnings that Osama bin Laden planned to attack inside the U.S., that an invasion of Iraq could create a toxic partnership between outside terrorists and Baathists and create sympathy for them across the Islamic world, that Donald Rumsfeld was planning a war and occupation without enough troops, that Saddam's aluminum tubes were not for nuclear purposes, that U.S. troops should safeguard 380 tons of sealed explosives that could bring down planes and buildings, and that, after the invasion, Iraq could erupt into civil war.

And, of course, the president ignored Colin Powell's Pottery Barn warning: if you break it, you own it.

Their Iraqi puppet, Ayad Allawi, turned on Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush this week, in a scene right out of "Chucky.'' Mr. Allawi accused coalition forces of "major negligence'' for not protecting the unarmed Iraqi National Guard trainees who were slaughtered by insurgents wearing Iraqi police uniforms. Iraqi recruits are getting killed so fast we can't even pretend that we're going to turn the country over to them.

If you really want to be chilled to the bone this Halloween, listen to what Peter W. Galbraith, a former diplomat who helped advance the case for an Iraq invasion at the request of Paul Wolfowitz, said in a column yesterday in The Boston Globe.

He said he'd told Mr. Wolfowitz about "the catastrophic aftermath of the invasion, the unchecked looting of every public institution in Baghdad, the devastation of Iraq's cultural heritage, the anger of ordinary Iraqis who couldn't understand why the world's only superpower was letting this happen.'' He told Mr. Wolfowitz that mobs were looting Iraqi labs of live H.I.V. and black fever viruses and making off with barrels of yellowcake.

"Even after my briefing, the Pentagon leaders did nothing to safeguard Iraq's nuclear sites,'' he said.

In his column, Mr. Galbraith said weapons looted from the arms site called Al Qaqaa might have wound up in Iran, which could obviously use them to pursue nuclear weapons.

In April 2003 in Baghdad, he said, he told a young U.S. lieutenant stationed across the street that H.I.V. and black fever viruses had just been looted. The soldier had been devastated and said, "I hope I'm not responsible for Armageddon.''

Too bad that never occurred to Dr. Cheneystein.

dissention

10-28-2004, 09:07 AM

I'm not in the mood to debate with you today, but Clinton did not overhaul health care like Kerry is planning to do. If Kerry wants to do all he says, there's no way that he can by just rolling back the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

Ah, but you're forgetting the surplus created by Clinton's economic policies, which could easily be created again and used to lower the deficit. ;) Once governemnt waste is substantially lowered, we will only benefit.

And he's not proposing JUST rolling back tax cuts, methinsk you should bone up on his plans.

But since you aren't going to vote, I could care less. :wavey:

strandinthewind

10-28-2004, 09:17 AM

. . . which could easily be created again and used to lower the deficit. ;)

Did you just say anything in politics could be done easily :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-28-2004, 09:55 AM

I do not like Bush or Kerry enough to vote for them. Besides, I'm registered in Illinois, which will go overwhelmingly Kerry. He doesn't need my vote to win, and Bush doesn't need mine to lose. And I don't expect to hear a retort for that, because I know the only reason you considered voting for Cobb is because you know Kerry will win your state. :angel:

what a sad statement.

We have a great privelage in this country to vote....to me the "I don't like either of em" is just an excuse....I mean you can't find one single thing that you agree with one more than the other on? But just to not vote..."because they don't need my vote" it's sad.

I have not missed one election since I turned 18...I take my right to vote very seriously and it saddens me the apathy of those who don't....

dissention

10-28-2004, 10:10 AM

I do not think one can compare Clinton policies with Kerry's proposed policies. Clinton leaned more into the center, and he submitted to Republican requests on many occasions. ;)

And I don't think you dismiss Kerry's policies by saying they can't be compared to Clinton's; the bones of almost all of his economic plans are based on Clinton's. Again, please go read them, it has nothing to do with conceding to Rethuglicans every once in awhile.

I do not like Bush or Kerry enough to vote for them. Besides, I'm registered in Illinois, which will go overwhelmingly Kerry. He doesn't need my vote to win, and Bush doesn't need mine to lose. And I don't expect to hear a retort for that, because I know the only reason you considered voting for Cobb is because you know Kerry will win your state. :angel:

At least I'm voting, no matter if it's for Cobb or Kerry (and I'm voting Kerry). Sorry, but those who are eligible to vote but don't have no right to complain about things because they could have done their duty.

dissention

10-28-2004, 10:11 AM

what a sad statement.

We have a great privelage in this country to vote....to me the "I don't like either of em" is just an excuse....I mean you can't find one single thing that you agree with one more than the other on? But just to not vote..."because they don't need my vote" it's sad.

I have not missed one election since I turned 18...I take my right to vote very seriously and it saddens me the apathy of those who don't....

People expect to get candidates that agree with them on every issue. They choose not to vote out of anger and disappointment when that mythical candidate never arrives on his white steed.

DrummerDeanna

10-28-2004, 10:40 AM

People expect to get candidates that agree with them on every issue. They choose not to vote out of anger and disappointment when that mythical candidate never arrives on his white steed.

:nod: :sad: Yeah - I just don't get that I guess...I mean no, I don't agree with Kerry on every single thing...but on the things I consider important I agree more with KErry than with Bush...:shrug: I dont have to be in love with someone to vote for them...geez....I think it's just a right that people should exercise...

HOwever I am also aware that there are people who DO go vote with absolutely NO knowledge of what they're doing...case in point - I believe it was my grandma who voted for John KEnnedy because ---- he was the cuter candidate :rolleyes:

estranged4life

10-28-2004, 10:53 AM

HOwever I am also aware that there are people who DO go vote with absolutely NO knowledge of what they're doing...case in point - I believe it was my grandma who voted for John KEnnedy because ---- he was the cuter candidate :rolleyes:

looks seem to matter to some voters, But if that was the case I wouldnt be voting for any males cause I find women cuter/sexier :nod:

My Mom likes to call Kerry "Herman-Munster" cause of his gigantic noggin' & his (indeed) resemblance to the beloved Munsters character, But she has even worse things to say about Bush (She rips him a new hole when his name is brought up in phone conversations)...So I think I know where her vote will be going.

Brian j.

dissention

10-28-2004, 10:54 AM

I believe it was my grandma who voted for John KEnnedy because ---- he was the cuter candidate :rolleyes:

Put Nixon next to a farm hog and she would have voted for the farm hog...the cuter candidate. :laugh:

ShangriLaTroubl

10-28-2004, 11:04 AM

If you really research a candidate you will never agree with the candidate on EVERYTHING...You have to choose the one who will best lead the country...I used to think that was W, why? Because I used to only listen to WHAT HE SAID...I listened to his fabrications about the economy, I was close-minded about abortion and I listened when he told me about his "Values," I bought into the whole thing....until ONE DAY, I woke up...

Bush says "41 million seniors now have access to lower cost prescriptions." Is Bush so dumb that he doesnt realize that this MMA (medical modernization act) wont even go in to effect until 2006? He's already praising it's outcome, when it hasn't even went into effect yet.

BOTH candidates have misled in their ads, about the other...But Bush's are far more far-fetched. Kerry is more prone to, in his speeches and ads, say things that are true but just leave out some parts...while Bush just makes up stuff period.
During the 2000 presidential campaign Bush promised to increase the maximum size of Pell Grants to $5,100 for first-year students, well it's still only at $4050, at he's had four years! And under his 2005 proposal the maximum would still remain frozen!

President Bush could not even name ONE mistake he's made, other than "some minor appointments to some offices you probably have never heard of." In the debate he denied saying he " You know, I just don't spend that much time on him...I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him" (him being Osama Bin Laden)

Bush claims that his administration is the one who blocked contaminated flu vaccine from entering the USA. The British blocked it, NOT the USA. It was The British Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency.

Kerry exaggerates sometimes when mentioning the surplus Clinton left us with...He says "5.6 trillion" , but we never actually had that, that was the projected surplus. Kerry's only problem I see is his wording, he should've said PROJECTED..or he should have said "$236 billion" which is what we ACTUALLY reached.

Bush is just either really stupid, or thinks that if he just makes things up us dumb Americans will just believe...He is the biggest exaggerator and misleader among any President I have ever studied in history.
Ralph Nader said it best today in a press conference "George W. Bush is the most impeachable President in History..more impeachable than Nixon...than Clinton."

Chris

GardenStateGirlie

10-28-2004, 12:01 PM

People expect to get candidates that agree with them on every issue. They choose not to vote out of anger and disappointment when that mythical candidate never arrives on his white steed.

Politics in America are like a three-ringed-circus...a total joke...look what's happening now...people voting for the lesser of two evils...a party electing a candidate they don't really fully support but have to because they want their party in the White House and didn't think they could win with someone as far to the left as Dean. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic so yes, I do understand the frustration of people when it comes to politics.

There willl never be a candidate that agrees with people on every issue. Ever. You have two parties so deeply engrained in our American history that have changed and evolved into something they were never meant to be, IMO. There is either the right or the left. I don't agree with everything Republicans have to say (despite popular belief, i'm not even registered as a Republican) but I don't agree with everything that Democrats have to say either. There will never be some candidate that will arrive on his white steed and save us all because there are two parties that will never let it happen. Let's be honest, if you really want to get elected in this country, you have to be running as a Democrat or as a Republican. Very few Independents get elected to office. What is so deplorable about the way things work in our country is that you have people running for office on the Republican and Democratic tickets that perhaps don't believe with all of the ideology their party stands for but run anyway so we miss out on what they really have to offer. No wonder why people in other countries look quizzically at us when it comes time to elect a President. They don't get it. I'd venture to guess most American's don't get it either because honestly, it makes no sense.

However, voting is a right and not a privelage and I wish all people would take time, become educated on the issues that matter to them (i know pretty much everyone on here is incredibly educated which is why we have such good debate) and go out and vote for <i>something</i>.

gldstwmn

10-28-2004, 12:30 PM

Ralph Nader said it best today in a press conference "George W. Bush is the most impeachable President in History..more impeachable than Nixon."

Chris

I'd have to agree with that crazy old bastard about that.

ShangriLaTroubl

10-28-2004, 03:02 PM

Sure sure politics in America has gone to the rats...whatever

I support John Kerry and what he stands for, fully. This, unlike many people would like you to believe, is not a year when MOST people are electing the lesser of two evils. John Kerry's support is huge. It's not just people with the ABB (anybody but Bush) mindset either....many Republicans have crossed the line to support Kerry... I believe, unlike Bush, that Kerry's values are more with the mainstream of America than Bush's. Bush says Kerry is way away from the mainstream, but in fact he's not.

I will vote for whoever I like, whoever represents me best. If a good Republican runs...I just as likely would vote for him, if I agree with him on the important issues to me. It makes no difference to me. I just happen to agree more with Democrats. I do not think American politics has gone down the drain. I think if we elect John Kerry, the USA will be better for it.

I just got an email from some Bush 527 saying "so much is at stake this year..watch this video.." and went on to talk about "With Kerry's liberal voting record on issues important to national security, we cannot risk not electing George Bush.." We need Kerry

Chris

GardenStateGirlie

10-28-2004, 04:36 PM

Sure sure politics in America has gone to the rats...whatever

I wasn't asking you to agree with me, I was making an educated statement based on history and based on politics in general. Of course, i'm from NJ...land of a thousand crooked politicians so what the hell do I know? Studying it, living it, you start to become really disenchanted with how it works. Again, that's my opinion. That was all I was saying. It's all about control and all about power flip flopping between to parties.

I agree, people...Violet included...need to vote for who will serve their needs best. For some that's Kerry, for others that's Bush. We all lead different lives so we're not going to be united on this one. What's of importance to one might not be the main importance of another.

So Violet, without saying vote this way or vote that way, just pick the issues that matter to you most and vote for the candidate that will guide you through the next four years.

ShangriLaTroubl

10-28-2004, 08:56 PM

Violet I encourage you to take the Presidential Matchmaker Quiz...very useful...based on your answers on the issues they present, they compare them with the answers the candidates gave...and it gives you a percentage, on who you are most compatible with, based on issues.. When you take it, just answer the question based on how you really feel...and in the end I always leave blank the field of which candidate you prefer so it can be un biased..
http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2

Chris

estranged4life

10-28-2004, 09:48 PM

http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2

Chris

I went and gave my answers on the issues listed, Here are the results:

Kerry 71%
Bush 25%

Brian j.

ps-So what the hell happened to the other 4%??? Maybe lost in the "Voting Bermuda Rectangle" of Flori-DUH?

amber

10-28-2004, 09:52 PM

I went and gave my answers on the issues listed, Here are the results:

Kerry 71%
Bush 25%

Brian j.

ps-So what the hell happened to the other 4%??? Maybe lost in the "Voting Bermuda Rectangle" of Flori-DUH?
Nader/Camejo?
heh, I love Camejo, i voted for him for gov. He has an investment company that we've done some printing for, and they only invest in "green" "socially responsible" stuff.
Amber "I love Camejo" G

dissention

10-28-2004, 09:55 PM

I got:

Kerry 90%
Bush 2%

:lol:

ShangriLaTroubl

10-28-2004, 09:57 PM

On the front page of my county paper :

REPUBLICAN WOMEN TO MEET
The Republican women of Henry County will hold a pre-election prayer breakfast on Saturday, October 30 from 8 to 9:00am at Cafe Chavez, 5222 N. Henry Blvd. in Stockbridge. Spend an hour in fellowship and prayer for our country at this important time in our history. The cost is $7 per person. For more info call....

That should tell you about the area I live in!

Chris

estranged4life

10-28-2004, 09:59 PM

Nader/Camejo?
heh, I love Camejo, i voted for him for gov. He has an investment company that we've done some printing for, and they only invest in "green" "socially responsible" stuff.

Amber "I love Camejo" G

but when I see Camejo I ususally think of the ever popular Beavis & Butt-head character:

The Great Corn-holio

Trust me, Ya get a candidate with a f**ked up sounding name on the ballot and I'm so there...

Brian "My favorite hockey player is the former New Jersey Devils/Buffalo Sabres player Miraslov SATAN...Great name for an Ice Hockey player" j.

estranged4life

10-28-2004, 10:07 PM

Spend an hour in fellowship and prayer for our country at this important time in our history. The cost is $7 per person. For more info call....

Pay to pray??? Are these "Fellowship of the Retards" serious? I can waste $7 on more important things than be with some of the idgits of the cloth.

As Stan on South Park once said:

"Dude...That is f**ked up"

Brian j.

amber

10-28-2004, 10:07 PM

but when I see Camejo I ususally think of the ever popular Beavis & Butt-head character:

The Great Corn-holio

Trust me, Ya get a candidate with a f**ked up sounding name on the ballot and I'm so there...

Brian "My favorite hockey player is the former New Jersey Devils/Buffalo Sabres player Miraslov SATAN...Great name for an Ice Hockey player" j.
aww, i guess i'm not as nihilistic as you. i watched the gubernatorial debates, and of course i'm a softie for "green" anyway, but that man is smart, and he outclassed and out intelligenced everyone. he was so on point, that people couldn't even argue with him....they were too dumb, and too caught up with minute issues that don't really change things, ie, the two parties. He was big, sustainable, picture, while everyone else was petty, get us nowhere, slick "arguments". He had the vision that i understood, that many people can't see. IMO.
Amber

heyjupiter678

10-28-2004, 10:17 PM

I got:

Kerry 90%
Bush 2%

:laugh:

Mine:

Kerry 89%
Bush 1%

:nod:

EnchantedSLN

10-28-2004, 10:22 PM

Amber, I'm slightly disturbed by the fact that your hand is transparent in your sig pic.

(I was 92% Kerry, 6% Bush.)

amber

10-28-2004, 10:22 PM

Amber, I'm slightly disturbed by the fact that your hand is transparent in your sig pic.

(I was 92% Kerry, 6% Bush.)
hehe, that's my friends hand, superimposed from another photo in the roll.
cool, huh?

GypsySorcerer

10-28-2004, 10:55 PM

I got:

Kerry 90%
Bush 2%

:lol:

I wonder what the two per cent was for. :shocked: :wavey:

Patti

10-29-2004, 08:56 AM

I was 85% Kerry, 5% Bush. Frankly I'm appalled at myself for scoring that 5%! :lol:

ShangriLaTroubl

10-29-2004, 09:20 AM

Dont feel bad Patti I was 80% Kerry, and 11 % Bush.

I'm very ashamed of my 11%

Chris

Violet

10-29-2004, 08:44 PM

Ahem....Attention please...

I think, I'm almost 100% sure I'm voting for:

wait for it.........

KERRY.

I've done a lot of reading, talking to people, etc. My in-laws really surprised me when they said they're voting for him. My dad totally didn't surprise me when he said he's not. In fact, I think he's brainwashed me into thinking that I can't vote anything but republican. Please don't bash my dad. He's a great person, and I value his opinon on a lot of things, but he's pretty bull-headed, which is a trait I've inherited. :rolleyes: I'm stubborn. And I don't deal with change well.

So, my score on the poll was Kerry 62%, Bush 31%, which doesn't surprise me since I'm pretty "middle of the road."

My husband, who's said all along he's voting Bush (though when I ask him why he doesn't really say anything), WON'T be voting at all. He got called to go to Boston (right after his job in N. Jersey tomorrow) to cover, get this irony, Kerry's election night headquarters at Copley Plaza, or whatever the hotel is called. I'm not familiar with Boston. He got the assignment too late to do an absentee ballot.

Oh, yeah....everyone says how Kerry looks like Herman Munster. To me, that's a plus, because I think it's funny as hell, and anything that makes me laugh is a good thing!

So, see y'all at the polls! :wavey:

Carol

gldstwmn

10-29-2004, 09:31 PM

KERRY.

Carol

You won't regret it. :) :woohoo:

estranged4life

10-29-2004, 11:48 PM

KERRY.

I've done a lot of reading, talking to people, etc. My in-laws really surprised me when they said they're voting for him. My dad totally didn't surprise me when he said he's not. In fact, I think he's brainwashed me into thinking that I can't vote anything but republican. Please don't bash my dad. He's a great person, and I value his opinon on a lot of things, but he's pretty bull-headed, which is a trait I've inherited. :rolleyes: I'm stubborn. And I don't deal with change well.

So, my score on the poll was Kerry 62%, Bush 31%, which doesn't surprise me since I'm pretty "middle of the road."

Oh, yeah....everyone says how Kerry looks like Herman Munster. To me, that's a plus, because I think it's funny as hell, and anything that makes me laugh is a good thing!

So, see y'all at the polls! :wavey:

Carol

I may, repeat MAY vote for Kerry/Edwards afterall...I still consider myself an Independent, But a majority of the Independent undecideds are leaning towards Kerry/Edwards over Bush/DICK...And after checking my results on the presidentmatch.com the results of what Kerry supports are more inline with my political beliefs than Bush-wackers is. I still do not like Kerry much...But I like Bush even less, All one has to do is look at his 2004 war in Vietna...Opps, Uh Iraq. Besides, If I can annoy the pro-Bush crowd here in this hellhole town in the process I will feel vindicated!!!

Btw, I still dont get why 25% of my results are with Bush-dumplings view, Must've been those few "no Opinions" I checked that made the numbers higher.

So maybe ya Liberal folk wont hate my ass as much now :nod:

As for Herman Munster, Hey his wife is a hottie, His niece is a hottie (Though odd looking as she is compared to the normalness of the rest of the Munster clan) and his "Munster Coach" is one badass ride (As is Grampa's "Coffin Roadster:)...So I guess I can tolerate a Munster look-a-like in the White House instead of 4 more years of a Texas sized pile of Cow Chips!!!

Brian j.

ps-Go OSU/Okla.St...Beat the Sooners!!!