New to the pre-Rumours Mac

[BrokenWing]

I've been a Mac fan since 1987, but have only recently become acquainted with the pre-BN incarnations of the band. I'd never been a real blues fan, so I wasn't expecting to be all that impressed...but I was quite pleasantly surprised. :blob2:

What surprised me even more was which songs jumped out at me. I'd heard all the superlatives used to describe Peter Green in his Mac days, and he is indeed an amazing talent, but it was Danny Kirwan's music that really grabbed me and drew me in. Is it just me, or does it seem that you hardly hear about Danny when people talk about the band's pre-Rumours incarnations? Mostly it's all Greenie the blues legend, or Jeremy's Elmore James act and 50s parodies, or Welch's California pop/rock sensibilities. Even reviews of Bare Trees, where Danny really came into his own, all you hear about are Homeward Bound and Sentimental Lady and Spare Me A Little Of Your Love. In fact, that was pretty much all Mick talked about on the album in his autobiography. I know Danny had gotten very erratic at the time and would soon leave the band under very unhappy circumstances, but it seems a travesty to write off his contribution to that album. :mad:

While the blues-era Mac sounds excellent, my favorite incarnation is the Future Games / Bare Trees Mac. There's something about the combination of Christine, Bob Welch and Danny that seems to mesh well, at least in the music, and it's shocking to hear of the personality clashes that were actually going on. But then, it does seem like the Mac produces its best music under the worst of circumstances--Then Play On (Greenie's growing disillusionment), Bare Trees (Danny's worsening mental state), Rumours (no explanation necessary). My favorite pre-BN album so far is Bare Trees. The song Dust in particular gives me the shivers, Child of Mine and the title track rock, and I'm surprised at how much I enjoy the original version of Sentimental Lady. And I can't get enough of Danny's songs from Future Games as well--Women of 1,000 Years, Sands Of Time and Sometimes. The amazing thing about his music is that, in most cases, the lyrics are really rather minimal and often not that good, but the music rocks so much that I barely notice anything lacking in the lyrics.

Incidentally, am I the only one who wonders if maybe the outcome might have been different for Danny, had more been understood about mental illness back in 1972? Sure, we had come a long way since the nineteenth century, but there's been a lot of progress in recent years, especially with medication. It just makes me so sad to think of such incredible talent wasted like that. :(

On another note, I've been reading through the Q & A sessions with many of the pre-Rumours members, especially the epic first session with Bob Welch. I was absolutely shocked to read about his falling out with the band. I wasn't following the Mac as closely in the early 90s, so I never knew about the lawsuit, and Mick's book had led me to believe Welch was closer with the band than any other ex-member. I'm glad it sounds like they've ironed things out somewhat, and he's at least friends with Mick again, but it makes me wonder how much of what he said in the first session is true and how much was his bitterness about the R&RHOF speaking. (On a side note, his being snubbed by the R&RHOF was a horrible travesty; one can easily argue that, say, Walker or Brunning don't merit being inducted with the Mac, but Welch was such an integral member for so long.) I guess it's not really appropriate to speculate on what each of the members are like offstage, but I was just rather shocked at Welch's characterizations of Mick, John and Christine--nothing like I'd imagined any of them. But I guess we only see a small fraction of the people behind the music from our vantage point. :shrug: And aside from his comments about the English trio, I was struck by how much Bob put into that Q & A. He came across as a really nice guy, and you could tell he enjoyed conversing with the fans.

Just a few thoughts from a new convert to the pre-Rumours Mac...

BW

[sharksfan2000]

I've been a Mac fan since 1987, but have only recently become acquainted with the pre-BN incarnations of the band.
Welcome aboard! :D


My favorite pre-BN album so far is Bare Trees. The song Dust in particular gives me the shivers, Child of Mine and the title track rock, and I'm surprised at how much I enjoy the original version of Sentimental Lady. And I can't get enough of Danny's songs from Future Games as well--Women of 1,000 Years, Sands Of Time and Sometimes. The amazing thing about his music is that, in most cases, the lyrics are really rather minimal and often not that good, but the music rocks so much that I barely notice anything lacking in the lyrics.
While I'm partial to Peter Green's work with the band, I also really like these two albums, and I agree that Danny's songs are too often overlooked. Maybe this is at least partially due to his difficulty in writing lyrics, but I also agree with you that in most cases his music overcomes that. I particularly love his guitar work on "Woman of 1,000 Years" and "Sands of Time". "Sunny Side of Heaven" is another classic Kirwan composition. He had a very distinctive song-writing style that showed through in a number of his tracks from the early '70s. I think that you're right to imply that his contributions have been minimized due to his personailty clashes with other band members and his forced departure from the band.


Incidentally, am I the only one who wonders if maybe the outcome might have been different for Danny, had more been understood about mental illness back in 1972? Sure, we had come a long way since the nineteenth century, but there's been a lot of progress in recent years, especially with medication. It just makes me so sad to think of such incredible talent wasted like that. :(
Sadly, that seems very possible - and probably even more so with regard to Peter than Danny. I've read several accounts that suggest that the treatments Peter was forced to undergo in the '70s (and to some extent up into the mid-'90s) may well have done more damage to him than his original problems.


Mick's book had led me to believe
If there's anything that Mick's book has led me to believe, it's that you can't believe everything in Mick's book :distress: Unfortunately that's no different from pretty much everything that's been written about this band over the years - way too much misinformation, disinformation, and hidden (and not-so-hidden) agendas.

[wondergirl9847]

Are you Bob Welch? LOL Kidding.

Anyways, I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! Danny is my 3rd fave FM member behind Lindsey (he rules, you know Hehe.) and Stevie. I've always thought that Danny is like a mix of Lindsey (his guitar and minimal lyrics) and Stevie (her mysticism and such). Future Games and Bare Trees are my fave pre-Rumours albums too. :nod: Woman of a Thousand Years is an exquisitely gorgeous song. I love all of Danny's music, and his solo stuff is VERY good too, I hope you can get a hold of that via LP's or trading or something. :thumbsup:

[wetcamelfood]

Welcome Brokenwing. :)

Yeah, Danny is VERY underrated, I like how he was able to shift with such ease between the still pure blues days of FM when he joined to the pop rock sound the band was playing when he exited and maintained high quality output throughout his tenure, whatever the style, really amazing. :)

John

[sharksfan2000]

I've always thought that Danny is like a mix of Lindsey (his guitar and minimal lyrics)
Although I'm hardly an expert on Lindsey, from stuff I've listened to I do think Danny & Lindsey's approaches were/are similar in that they both seem to work out their guitar parts in great detail. My impression is that they were/are very meticulous in crafting their songs and guitar arrangements.

By contrast, Peter Green was a much more spontaneous and improvisational player back in his Mac days. Haven't really thought that much about Bob Welch's approach but he was probably somewhere in the middle.

It would be really revealing to hear studio out-takes from the Future Games / Bare Trees period, similar to some of the things on the Blue Horizon box set and on the Vaudeville Years / Show-Biz Blues sets from the Peter Green era or like the recent Madison Blues package from the Kiln House era. Any bets as to whether we'll ever see any release like that?? Maybe some bonus tracks on the remastered cds? :shrug:

[BrokenWing]

While I'm partial to Peter Green's work with the band, I also really like these two albums, and I agree that Danny's songs are too often overlooked. Maybe this is at least partially due to his difficulty in writing lyrics, but I also agree with you that in most cases his music overcomes that. I particularly love his guitar work on "Woman of 1,000 Years" and "Sands of Time". "Sunny Side of Heaven" is another classic Kirwan composition. He had a very distinctive song-writing style that showed through in a number of his tracks from the early '70s.

I find that Danny really hit his peak in the early 70s--for one thing, the difference between his lyrics on FG and BT and those on TPO is striking. Given another album or two, he probably could have evolved into a much better lyricist to go along with his superb musicianship. Of course, it's worth noting that his difficulty with lyrics may have been related to his extreme introvertedness, too. I can't see him baring his soul in lyrics, even cryptic ones, as Peter did and Stevie later would.

I think that you're right to imply that his contributions have been minimized due to his personailty clashes with other band members and his forced departure from the band.

Which is a shame, really. One has to wonder if Lindsey's less-than-cordial departure in 1987 would have been treated the same way, had the Rumours lineup not been such a smashing commercial success.

Sadly, that seems very possible - and probably even more so with regard to Peter than Danny. I've read several accounts that suggest that the treatments Peter was forced to undergo in the '70s (and to some extent up into the mid-'90s) may well have done more damage to him than his original problems.

That's just tragic beyond description. Doctors are supposed to make you better, not worse, aren't they!? I do hope he has since gotten some genuine help, and that he's happy with his rejuvenated career. Mental illness can be a frightening experience both for the patient and those around him/her--and it sure can't help the patient when other people turn away in disgust from what terrifies them. I'm thinking here of the hint of revulsion I detect in Mick's recollection of his last encounter with Danny in his autobiography; whatever else is distorted or incorrectly remembered in his story, it's probably safe to assume the feelings he expresses are genuine. And speaking of Mick's book...

If there's anything that Mick's book has led me to believe, it's that you can't believe everything in Mick's book :distress: Unfortunately that's no different from pretty much everything that's been written about this band over the years - way too much misinformation, disinformation, and hidden (and not-so-hidden) agendas.

I guess it's inevitable that anything written is going to be colored by the writer's point of view, plus we can't really expect Mick to remember everything perfectly that happened 30 years ago. If only some of the other band members would come out with their own memoirs, it would be interesting to compare and contrast.

Eileen

[BrokenWing]

Although I'm hardly an expert on Lindsey, from stuff I've listened to I do think Danny & Lindsey's approaches were/are similar in that they both seem to work out their guitar parts in great detail. My impression is that they were/are very meticulous in crafting their songs and guitar arrangements.

That's the impression I've gotten as well. And reliable or not, Mick's book seems to confirm this. When he talks about Danny's contributions to TPO, he notes that Danny took a very meticulous approach just as Lindsey would do years later. And a few chapters later, when Mick discusses hearing "Frozen Love" at Keith Olsen's studio that fateful day, he recalls thinking something about the guitar reminded him of Danny. For me, the similarity has a lot do with the fact that each of them puts his unique stamp on his playing--in Lindsey's case, his finger-picking styles, and in Danny's case, the bent notes and tremolo that make his electric guitar sound oddly similar to a steel guitar at times. This is particularly evident in Sometimes.

By contrast, Peter Green was a much more spontaneous and improvisational player back in his Mac days.

Greenie seems like he was in touch with his instrument on a level most musicians would donate a limb or two to achieve.

Haven't really thought that much about Bob Welch's approach but he was probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure I've yet heard anything where Welch played lead. I'd probably have to hear some tracks from Heroes, where he was the only guitarist in the band so I'd know I didn't have him confused with Weston or Kirwan. So far I like his songwriting for the most part, but haven't formed an opinion of him as a musician.

It would be really revealing to hear studio out-takes from the Future Games / Bare Trees period, similar to some of the things on the Blue Horizon box set and on the Vaudeville Years / Show-Biz Blues sets from the Peter Green era or like the recent Madison Blues package from the Kiln House era. Any bets as to whether we'll ever see any release like that?? Maybe some bonus tracks on the remastered cds? :shrug:

Agreed, that would be awesome, if in fact we ever see the remastered CDs in this lifetime. What I'd really love more than anything, though, is video footage of the band. How likely is that to ever happen, though? :shrug:

Eileen

[sharksfan2000]

I'm not sure I've yet heard anything where Welch played lead. I'd probably have to hear some tracks from Heroes, where he was the only guitarist in the band so I'd know I didn't have him confused with Weston or Kirwan. So far I like his songwriting for the most part, but haven't formed an opinion of him as a musician.
I think Heroes Are Hard To Find is under-rated (well, my view is shaped by the fact that was their current album when I first got into the band). That album and Mystery to Me are probably the best to hear Bob Welch's contributions, both as songwriter and guitarist. Although he certainly contributed a few gems to FG & BT, his own, often quite jazzy, guitar style didn't really stand out nearly as much as in the later albums. "Hypnotized" from Mystery to Me has got to be his signature track as both songwriter and guitarist.

[chiliD]

Greenie seems like he was in touch with his instrument on a level most musicians would donate a limb or two to achieve.

And, thereby negating what they were striving for. :laugh:

I'm not sure I've yet heard anything where Welch played lead. I'd probably have to hear some tracks from Heroes, where he was the only guitarist in the band so I'd know I didn't have him confused with Weston or Kirwan. So far I like his songwriting for the most part, but haven't formed an opinion of him as a musician.

From hearing a show or two from the Bare Trees tour, Welch & Kirwan actually are pretty easy to tell apart...which makes hearing what they did in the studio easier to detect who played what. Welch, suprisingly, played much less lead guitar than I had originally thought during the FG/BT era. (same goes for Peter Green on Then Play On...a large part of what I'd thought was Peter, I later found out was Danny)

I'd really like to hear a live show from 73 with both Welch & Weston.

[wondergirl9847]

And, thereby negating what they were striving for. :laugh:

...legs are limbs too. ;)

[SteveMacD]

...legs are limbs too. ;)

Yeah, but then you couldn't use the Wah-Wah. :D

[SteveMacD]

Agreed, that would be awesome, if in fact we ever see the remastered CDs in this lifetime. What I'd really love more than anything, though, is video footage of the band. How likely is that to ever happen, though? :shrug:

In terms of a commercial release, it's probably not likely. However, there is video from a television show of the Future Games/Bare Trees band doing Dragonfly, which was a single the band released prior to Jeremy Spencer's departure. There are also video performances of the Mystery To Me band from a 1973 Midnight Special and of the Heroes band from a 1974 Don Kirchner's Rock Concert.

And, if you stretch it a bit, there was Bob Welch and Friends Live At The Roxy, which features Mick, John, Christine, Weston, and Stevie Nicks.