What's good for Christine is bad for Lindsey? [Archive]

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 03:05 PM

When Lindsey left the band before the Tango tour, it caused a major controversy. To this day, people on this forum still slam him for it.

BUT:

How come when Christine recorded a bunch of songs for Time and declined to tour it was OK with the fans?

How come when Christine stopped the Dance tour short after 40 dates she didn't incur the same kind of criticism Lindsey did?
********

I think when LB left, the way he went about it was sort of 'yeah I'll do it, make all the plans'-- then 'no, I won't, I'm leaving, goodbye'. He sort of pulled the rug out from under them. Plus they were all in very different places in thier lives than they are now-- and hence the response was a little crazier.

I don't think it was 'OK w/ the fans' when Chris didn't tour w/ Fmac after Time. Did you go to any of those shows? I went to two, and boy, it was sad. The crowds were, for the most part, pretty apathetic. Watching Mick do his crazy drum solo in front of 20 bored people was agonizing. I loved seeing John and Mick, and frankly the band was pretty good, but I still felt embarrassed for them. Chris, contractually, HAD to contribute to Time-- even though she didn't really want to-- but she did not have to tour.

None of us know really what response the band had when C said she wouldn't tour anymore. Stevie has said they did try to convince her to stay; LB has said he understood her need to leave and was an ally. If she had stuff going on in her personal life, then I think M and J would have to be supportive enough to say 'go do what you need to do, you've been devoting your life to us for 30 years.' Also, she *had done* 40 dates. That's no small potatoes. At the Tango time, LB didn't do any dates at all.

JMHO.

-Lis

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 03:06 PM

>>>I don't think it was 'OK w/ the fans' when Chris didn't tour w/ Fmac after Time. Did you go to any of those shows? >>

I'm correcting myself. :-) I forgot, they did tour before and not after Time.

-Lis

CarneVaca

05-03-2004, 03:19 PM

Did you go to any of those shows? I went to two, and boy, it was sad. The crowds were, for the most part, pretty apathetic.

Lis, it was one of the worse concerts I've attended. For all I know, the band might have even been tighter than when they toured for Behind the Mask, which as I recall was a bit loose. But the lack of energy on stage and the very poorly thought-out set list was awful. Not to mention, FM took the stage after REO Speedwagon, which, say whatever you want about them, had torn up the place with their energy and a fun-loving show.

Number one being that Fleetwood Mac didn't tour to support 'Time'... they toured prior to its release.

But she did record songs for a band that was on tour but with which she didn't want to tour. Still weird, no?

Mari

05-03-2004, 03:21 PM

I think when LB left, the way he went about it was sort of 'yeah I'll do it, make all the plans'-- then 'no, I won't, I'm leaving, goodbye'. He sort of pulled the rug out from under them.

"he said she said".. umm I don't like to pretend I actually know which version is right, but Lindsey's version of this is that he didn't want to tour from the start on, but felt coerced by the band to do so. That they convinced him to do otherwise. It wasn't a "yeah, great, of course I'll tour with you" song from the beginning of recording TITN.

Plus they were all in very different places in thier lives than they are now-- and hence the response was a little crazier.

I agree with that one.

could it be... uh.. I'm going to get slammed for this one.. that the band knew that Lindsey's gap was going to be a bigger one to fill than Christine's now?

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 03:37 PM

But she did record songs for a band that was on tour but with which she didn't want to tour. Still weird, no?

Oh, it was definitely weird... and yet another reason why I wasn't surprised that they didn't go the same route with 'Say You Will.'

And yet, Christine's involvement on the 'Time' album was more along the lines of a "blending," and not as dominant (I'm not using that word in a bad way) as Lindsey's involvement on 'Tango.'
Her songs were basically recorded solo, and then the band overdubbed their backing vocals, drums and bass.
Also, her backing vocals (but not keys) were added to the other members' material only after it was decided to add her songs.
It was a very weird approach (but then, this IS Fleetwood Mac we're talking about!), but it was done with the knowledge that Christine's involvement would be strictly limited to those 5 tracks on the album, and nothing more.

We also have to remember that, when Christine retired from the road in 1990, she made it clear that she had every intention of continuing to record with Fleetwood Mac, if they wanted her there. So, again, there were no false expectations for her bandmates or the fans.

Not looking to question Lindsey's motives and/or personal situation in 1987, but perhaps if he hadn't hedged about touring, then expectations wouldn't have been there, and there would have been less hard feelings.
His heart wasn't in it, but his waffling allowed there to be a level of optimism. And when he did say yes, and a tour was booked, matters became all the worse.

Anyway, rightly or wrongly, these are the reasons why I believe Christine doesn't get a lot of flak.

GypsySorcerer

05-03-2004, 03:41 PM

I think part of it has do with the fact that TITN turned out to be a very successful album. I think the band wanted to tour to sustain the success of the album. By the time "Time" rolled around, the party was over for FM.

As for the Dance, she only agreed to the first 45 dates. And I think they had to beg and plead for her to do that much.

MikeB

05-03-2004, 03:49 PM

uh.. I'm going to get slammed for this one.. that the band knew that Lindsey's gap was going to be a bigger one to fill than Christine's now?
__________________

You're right..you ARE going to get slammed for that one!..lol!...but really..definitely not the reason!..in fact there IS a gap left in Fleetwood Mac at the moment,and it's quite BIG. I'm so glad Christine's album is coming out soon,I miss her in the band.Also,I don't think the band suffered at all by Lindsey's leaving.Rick and Billy were great additions.

Les

05-03-2004, 03:51 PM

Chris, contractually, HAD to contribute to Time-- even though she didn't really want to-- but she did not have to tour.

Really? I've never heard this before. Did she not want to contribute to Time?

Christine had been very slowly trying to pull out of the band for years. I think the gradual *plunk* *plunk* of hints sort of softened the blow when she finally did it. She stopped The Dance tour, but since it had been a "reunion tour" anyway, I don't think most folks really expected it to go on forever. While I think Lindsey was kind of slowly trying to pull out of the band in the latter 80s (and the band knew he didn't want to tour), when he committed to Tango in such a big way as producer, etc., I think it put fears in the fanbase to rest that he was going to go soon. So then when he did go, it seemed more abrupt. And it was in the midst of them still being considered an important band on MTV, radio, etc., so it was a bigger splash in that way.

Plus they were all in very different places in thier lives than they are now-- and hence the response was a little crazier.

I think that's very true too. Plus, I think fans sometimes take their cues about the vehemence of their own reactions on the basis of how some in the band react to things.

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 03:53 PM

>.>>But she did record songs for a band that was on tour but with which she didn't want to tour. Still weird, no?>>>

Yeah, that was weird, but again--she *had* to do the album.

>>>Lindsey's version of this is that he didn't want to tour from the start on, but felt coerced by the band to do so. That they convinced him to do otherwise. It wasn't a "yeah, great, of course I'll tour with you" song from the beginning of recording TITN.>>

This is absolutely true. The rest of the group probably didn't think he'd actually take the plunge and leave, and were floored when he did.

--Lis

Villavic

05-03-2004, 03:54 PM

Chris, contractually, HAD to contribute to Time-- even though she didn't really want to-- but she did not have to tour.

-Lis

I agree with Johnny Stew and ThePenguin admin. I think the way how LB left the band was far different from Christine's.

But I didn't know about the contractual situation of Chris. I knew she said "count on me" on recording sessions (according to Mick, at least). But I didn't know if she has a deal with the band, the record company or something like that.

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 03:58 PM

I could be completely wrong, but I don't recall Christine being contractually obligated to contribute to 'Time.'

I think she felt "obligated" out of loyalty, but no other reason.

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 04:02 PM

I know I read somewhere that she was contractually obligated to do that album. I'll have to dig around to try and find that interview.

-Lis

macfan 57

05-03-2004, 04:04 PM

I thought Christine was asked by Mick at the last minute to contribute some songs to the Time album. Wasn't there an album called "Another Link In The Chain" which didn't include Christine at all? I seem to remember somebody posting something like this a while ago.

chiliD

05-03-2004, 04:12 PM

Yeah, from everything I've read/heard, Fleetwood Mac had submitted a completed album entitled Another Link In The Chain and it was rejected. Mick then contacted Christine...the rest is history.

I guess I'm one of the handful of folks who DIDN'T cringe at seeing the band in 1994...I thought they were great. Granted, it was a bit weird seeing them with new folks...but, then back in 75 it was weird for the first few shows not seeing Bob Welch, too. I just figured I was going to have to get used to new people in the band again. No biggie, no comparisons...just another incarnation to learn to love.

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 04:41 PM

OK!!! I found it: she said in a 1997 Mojo article--

Also appearing on Time was one Christine McVie, who politely notes that her appearance, "was something that I had not volunteered to do; it was contractual. I don't like to harp on it much, but I thought the music was starting to get a little strange, the choices a little funny. I wasn't really enjoying that particular incarnation of the band, and I left." At that point, the former Miss Perfect's plans included moving back to England-- she's had a home in Kent for five years-- and pursuing the hobbies one would expect of a former member of Chicken Shack: "Painting, illustration, I'd like to write a book, I'd like to go to cooking school. I know it sounds utterly absurd, but I really love cooking and I take it very seriously." Plus a solo album "sometime beofre the next millenium."

-Lis

chiliD

05-03-2004, 05:14 PM

So, in reading the quote above, I assume Christine's absence was WB's #1 reason for rejecting the Another Link In The Chain album.

In reading some of the litigation things with the Beach Boys and who had rights to use the name, the "three member rule" was brought up. So, when Mike Love, Bruce Johnston got David Marks to join back up with them, they had three "official" Beach Boys members and won their litigation against Alan Jardine for using the "Beach Boys" name...even though Alan had the traditional Beach Boys' touring session players backing him. After Mike Love won the case, David Marks left the band, so NOW, the Beach Boys only real existing members are Mike Love & Bruce Johnston...and Bruce wasn't even an original member (granted, 2 of the Wilson brothers are now gone).

So, I wonder, if WB's either told Mick & John that they'd have to at least get Christine back in the fold or else they couldn't use the name "Fleetwood Mac".

Les

05-03-2004, 05:47 PM

ThePenguin

05-03-2004, 06:09 PM

Wow, that's news to me. Thanks for digging that out

No problem. I knew she said that, but thought I'd be looking for the article for hours. Since age 11 I've had an obsessive memory when it comes to FM quotes LOL. The problem is finding the actual source!

-Lis

macfan 57

05-03-2004, 06:30 PM

Yeah, thanks. :) That's something I never knew. I just always thought she contributed those songs as a favor to Mick. Now, I know she likes to cook, but I never knew she was thinking of writing a book.

chiliD

05-03-2004, 06:48 PM

A cook book? :shrug:

jbrownsjr

05-03-2004, 06:59 PM

A cook book? :shrug:

A book about how Lindsey leaving was bullshit! :]

HomerMcvie

05-03-2004, 08:09 PM

FM took the stage after REO Speedwagon, which, say whatever you want about them, had torn up the place with their energy and a fun-loving show.
As I recall, REO closed the show I saw. I'm fairly certain about this. The lineup was Pat Benatar, then FM, then REO. I remember overhearing several people around me bitching about the lineup. Then, Bekka did "Dreaming the Dream", and won me over. :xoxo:

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 08:17 PM

I'd also like to thank you, Lis, for finding Christine's quote on the subject.
That was totally news to me, too... I always thought she did it entirely out of loyalty, and as a "favor" in many ways.

Wow.
That adds even more meaning to the themes in Christine's 'Time' songs.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 08:27 AM

As I recall, REO closed the show I saw. I'm fairly certain about this. The lineup was Pat Benatar, then FM, then REO. I remember overhearing several people around me bitching about the lineup. Then, Bekka did "Dreaming the Dream", and won me over. :xoxo:

REO and FM alternated on the headlining slot. This is something REO also has been doing with Styx, Foreigner, and whatever other lame band they happen to be touring with at any given time.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 08:30 AM

Also appearing on Time was one Christine McVie, who politely notes that her appearance, "was something that I had not volunteered to do; it was contractual."

Interesting, Lis. Thanks for sharing that.

So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?

Help me out here, folks, because I think there's some kind of double standard going on.

Gailh

05-04-2004, 09:15 AM

I think the difference is that Lindsey at one point agreed to the tour and then changed his mind. Christine did what she said she would and then stopped.

However I don't think anyone should critisize Lindsey for not touring at that point - he just couldn't do it anymore. Just like Christine couldn't face any more tours and so didn't take part in SYW. Lindsey eventually came back into the fold - when the time was right. Maybe the time will be right for Christine one day (I normally wake up about this point)

They should be allowed to make decisions based on what is right for them at a point in their lives without people having a go at them.

I would prefer all five in the band recording and touring - but only if it's really what they want and they're not being forced into it.

Gail

ThePenguin

05-04-2004, 09:17 AM

>>>>Interesting, Lis. Thanks for sharing that.>>>>

You're welcome!

>>>>So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?Help me out here, folks, because I think there's some kind of double standard going on.>>>>

I'm not sure it's a double standaard as much as it was just very different circumstances. think it seemed more of a 'betrayal' because LB was the 1st to leave that magical Mick/John/Chris/Lindsey/Stevie line-up. Once Chris left, LB and Stevie were already gone....so I guess it just wasn't quite as traumatic.

-Lis

HomerMcvie

05-04-2004, 11:28 AM

Les

05-04-2004, 12:24 PM

I think the main difference is their ages. Lindsey was how old in 1987? 38? Christine is 60!

I don't know. Sure, fans are ready to accept a "retirement" at 60 moreso than at an earlier age, but I seriously doubt that it was simply "the road" that made the decision for either one of them anyway. It played a role for each because the road represents time away from being able to focus on something besides the band. But I think they both made their choices on far more than that, including personal issues, relationships, other interests & band burnout.

It is a selfish choice on some level - one that was going to disappoint others - but it's the kind of selfish choice that I don't think anyone should be denied or have held against them. I don't doubt it was a difficult decision for both. But it was the best choice for his and her life at the time that each made the choice. They're real people with other things to tend to in life and they know what they're ready to deal with at any given point far better than we do. In those circumstances, thirty-eight or sixty is neither here nor there.

Les

05-04-2004, 12:35 PM

No problem. I knew she said that, but thought I'd be looking for the article for hours. Since age 11 I've had an obsessive memory when it comes to FM quotes LOL. The problem is finding the actual source!

-Lis

By the way, I don't think I've ever read this 1997 Mojo article. Any chance you might be able to post it in the BLA? :)

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 01:01 PM

I can honestly say I didn't hold it against LB for exiting. I remember being really sad.

At the same time, I was also curious to see what CM and SN could do without him after so many years. I think it was very a respectable job covering the TITN tour on such short notice. I also thought the BTM tour was very good. I know many people did not think so, but I thought that FMac put on a very good show w/o Lindsey. The crowd in Cleveland (where i lived at the time) was going bezerk!

I remember when they opened with BTM the crowd errupted. CMcVie stole that show. Stevie looked a little out of it but she was still solid and the RV and BB were explosive at times.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 01:21 PM

I think the main difference is their ages. Lindsey was how old in 1987? 38?
Christine is 60! That's a BIG difference in putting up with being on the road. I think Lindsey was being selfish(not that that's necessarily wrong), whereas Chris has just decided it's time to bow out gracefully.

Age shmage, dude. There's plenty of people touring into their 70s these days. How old is BB King? 80? Etta James? 75? Keith Richards? 112?

And as for the selfish commment, I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?

If bowing out gracefully entails reluctantly contributing songs that you are contractually obligated to provide and then grousing about it, I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what that means. If selfish is putting your own solo career on hold to bail out a bankrupt drummer, then we'll have to disagree on that too.

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 01:57 PM

Yeah but I think Christine and Stevie said they would still record but not tour again. This was well before Time. LB on the other hand said he would tour then backed out. That's kind of what got the promoters and band mgmt a little miffed.

But like I said I respected his decision not to tour. His life was pretty messy back then. I was sad because he is amazing, and his work on TITN w/ Christine was amazing work!

Wayne Shorter sax - just saw him 2 weeks ago in Los Angeles, he is 71. Blew me away!

ThePenguin

05-04-2004, 02:20 PM

>>>>By the way, I don't think I've ever read this 1997 Mojo article. Any chance you might be able to post it in the BLA? >>>>

I may get around to that eventually. :-) Right now I'm buried in info regarding the Chris/John bio I'm working on...but maybe after that I can transcribe it for the BLA.

-Lis

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 02:48 PM

So if you're contractually obligated to contribute songs but don't want to tour, that's OK. However, if you agree to bail Mick out of bankruptcy by canning your solo record, giving the songs to FM instead, and then decide that you really can't tour with this band anymore, well... that's a huge betrayal?

Help me out here, folks, because I think there's some kind of double standard going on.

You're just trying to start the Christine Forum's very first thread war, aren't ya? ;) :laugh:

As has been said, it was two different sets of circumstances.
Lindsey quit the band in 1987 after a tour was booked. Christine, on the other hand, made it clear from the outset that she wouldn't be touring after 1990, only recording with the band.

There were no expectations that Christine would tour... however, there were expectations that Lindsey would tour. So feelings were hurt, and folks (fans as well as his bandmates) felt letdown or "betrayed."

If Lindsey had given a firm "no" right from the start, and made it abundantly clear that he was not going to tour for the album, and if he hadn't allowed dates to be booked, then I'm sure it would have been completely different.
Yes, fans would have still been disappointed he left the band, just as they're greatly disappointed Christine has left, but there wouldn't be that vibe of "broken promises."

I'm not criticizing Lindsey in the least, and you're right, it was a very selfless thing he did by folding his solo album into 'Tango,' and giving up his time to tackle the producer/arranger duties. And as far as I'm concerned it's all water under the bridge, but since you're asking why there's a different reaction from many of the fans in regards to Lindsey not touring and Christine not touring, these are the reasons as I see them. :)

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 03:09 PM

You're just trying to start the Christine Forum's very first thread war, aren't ya? ;) :laugh:

As has been said, it was two different sets of circumstances.
Lindsey quit the band in 1987 after a tour was booked. Christine, on the other hand, made it clear from the outset that she wouldn't be touring after 1990, only recording with the band.

There were no expectations that Christine would tour... however, there were expectations that Lindsey would tour. So feelings were hurt, and folks (fans as well as his bandmates) felt letdown or "betrayed."

If Lindsey had given a firm "no" right from the start, and made it abundantly clear that he was not going to tour for the album, and if he hadn't allowed dates to be booked, then I'm sure it would have been completely different.
Yes, fans would have still been disappointed he left the band, just as they're greatly disappointed Christine has left, but there wouldn't be that vibe of "broken promises."

I'm not criticizing Lindsey in the least, and you're right, it was a very selfless thing he did by folding his solo album into 'Tango,' and giving up his time to tackle the producer/arranger duties. And as far as I'm concerned it's all water under the bridge, but since you're asking why there's a different reaction from many of the fans in regards to Lindsey not touring and Christine not touring, these are the reasons as I see them. :)

Well said Brian. Plus, is no one willing to give Stevie the credit for returning to FM at all when she clearly did not have to. I mean that was as big of a "sacrifice" as LB turning his solo record over :shrug:

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 03:19 PM

Well said Brian. Plus, is no one willing to give Stevie the credit for returning to FM at all when she clearly did not have to. I mean that was as big of a "sacrifice" as LB turning his solo record over :shrug:

Dude, we're talking Christine now. Get with the program... :)

Besides, in 1987 a solo Lindsey album would have done well. Keep in mind he had fairly big hit with the Go Insane single.

But we're talking about Christine anyway.

Les

05-04-2004, 03:40 PM

... then I'm sure it would have been completely different.

It would have been somewhat different, but I tend to think that allegations of betrayal would still have been tossed around mostly because it was a product of where they were in their lives back then. And the pressures they were under, and the pressures they were putting on each other back then. If any of it happened now, when all of them are more clear-thinking and level-headed, it would be different. I don't think the band would handle it the same way. Among other things, I don't think they would relentlessly pressure Lindsey to tour when he clearly didn't want to, leading him to a reluctant decision that he soon realized he really couldn't handle and shouldn't have made.

There are a few vocal people who view Lindsey very harshly still. But I don't know how many really do. I think most people are actually able to look at it in a pretty human way. I can't really imagine looking at Christine's departure harshly either.

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 03:45 PM

As has been said, it was two different sets of circumstances.
Lindsey quit the band in 1987 after a tour was booked. Christine, on the other hand, made it clear from the outset that she wouldn't be touring after 1990, only recording with the band.

There were no expectations that Christine would tour... however, there were expectations that Lindsey would tour. So feelings were hurt, and folks (fans as well as his bandmates) felt letdown or "betrayed."

If Lindsey had given a firm "no" right from the start, and made it abundantly clear that he was not going to tour for the album, and if he hadn't allowed dates to be booked, then I'm sure it would have been completely different.

[...] And as far as I'm concerned it's all water under the bridge, but since you're asking why there's a different reaction from many of the fans in regards to Lindsey not touring and Christine not touring, these are the reasons as I see them. :)

Exactly. Seems like a pretty significant difference to me. And it's a pretty straightforward one as well. Not hard to imagine why one would be viewed more negatively than the other.

Without getting bogged down into hypotheticals, though, I will venture to say that Lindsey's departure would still have been viewed more negatively than Christine's, simply because so much depended on him. Where were Fleetwood Mac without him? Up on of those rivers Carne talked about in the Rumours forum without any toilet paper.

P.S. Not that a lot didn't depend on Christine too! The stakes were just a lot lower when she left, as has been stated above.

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 04:11 PM

Is it really a sacrifice for LB to give up his solo work to fold into a FM album?

LB average sales just over 100,000 units
FMac average sales TITN 1,000,000 plus and then this also did huge internationally

I love LB, but the sacrifice thing kind of cracks me up.

Seems like he's always sacrificing albums for FMac, poor guy! :laugh:

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 05:42 PM

dissention

05-04-2004, 06:12 PM

If Lindsey had given a firm "no" right from the start, and made it abundantly clear that he was not going to tour for the album, and if he hadn't allowed dates to be booked, then I'm sure it would have been completely different.

Were any contracts signed? I don't remember reading anything about anything being signed by Lindsey, so anything he said before he did so was tentative at best. ;)

And, from what I hear, fans weren't really disappointed once they went to the concerts. I'll let Chili pipe in with how ecstatic the crowds were. :laugh:

Les

05-04-2004, 06:46 PM

Is it really a sacrifice for LB to give up his solo work to fold into a FM album?

Oh goodness, I'm tired of this argument. Do we really want to argue that their solo work is less meaningful to them (or us for that matter) because it sells less? I certainly don't.

Belittling the man's solo sales doesn't negate the fact that he stopped his personal project and gave two years of his life to the whole band instead. A band that he was thinking of leaving. It was a commitment that few in the band - perhaps only Christine - were willing or able to match. He could have left without doing the album. He could have insisted that they wait for him to do the solo album first. He could have insisted upon being allowed to do both, and just doing his personal little bits for Tango and then taking off again with little care about what else happend with the album. He didn't, thankfully.

-----
Lis - thanks for the response about the article. If you can scan it, I can probably transcribe it for you if you're interested. Just let me know. :)

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 06:55 PM

I am glad you said this instead of me :laugh: Although - clearly LB, SN, and CM all gain in sales and marketability from FM :cool:

Clearly!! It wasn't a knock on LB. I would have preferred Gift of Screws. Seems like I made the sacrifice having to forgo his solo album which i was dying to come out after the dance tour!

So in closing it was me who made the sacrifice, you all agree with that? :rolleyes:

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 07:14 PM

I I can't really imagine looking at Christine's departure harshly either.

And I certainly don't. I'm just wondering why there is a double standard.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 07:15 PM

Up on of those rivers Carne talked about in the Rumours forum without any toilet paper.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 07:17 PM

Is it really a sacrifice for LB to give up his solo work to fold into a FM album?

If all you care about is money and sales figures, the answer would be no. But in 1987 I seriously doubt that was foremost in Lindsey's mind. He had made his money and he could have retired to Cabo to live out the rest of his life like a king.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 07:20 PM

Were any contracts signed? I don't remember reading anything about anything being signed by Lindsey, so anything he said before he did so was tentative at best. ;)

Dissention, you can be sure that given Mick's notoriously litigious nature, he would have sued Lindsey's pants off if a contract were involved.

I think people also tend to forget that when John told Lindsey to leave, Lindsey felt he was being expelled from the band. Up to that point he was trying to talk the rest of the band into accepting that he simply couldn't face the tour. If things hadn't gotten so ugly, he might have done it. It wasn't entirely his fault. But the Lindsey haters will never see it that way.
:distress: :distress:

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 07:26 PM

It was a commitment that few in the band - perhaps only Christine - were willing or able to match. He could have left without doing the album. He could have insisted that they wait for him to do the solo album first. He could have insisted upon being allowed to do both, and just doing his personal little bits for Tango and then taking off again with little care about what else happend with the album. He didn't, thankfully.

Wrong :laugh:

As I pointed out earlier, Stevie came back yet again to FM, perhaps out of love and loyalty, when she clearly did not have to come back because at that time or any other time, save 1997, because she was one of the most popular rock stars in the world and could have continued down that line - after all TOTSTM sold over a million records and had a hit single. Yet, she came back She put up with the same FM BS LB put up with (I mean they were all guitly of it). Then, she went on tour despite it all. So, I think Stevie has the upper hand here :shrug: But, as Carne noted, this is about CM.

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 07:27 PM

I agree he doesn't need the money. But to me, he gets to do what he wants within FMac and make money. He and Christine worked really well together on that album. He was obviously frustrated with Stevie, but at the same time because she was rarely there, he got to "overproduce" as he calls it, w/o much objection. He had said that Christine really went along with what he wanted to do during that album. During Tusk, he got a lot of flack from Mick/John/Stevie and Christine for his idiosyncracies.

I loved TITN! Love it love it love it. And it has the McVie/Buckingham solo feel to it, where SYW has that Nicks/Buckingham solo feel to it.

Anyway Carne you make good points. He could have lived in Cabo Wabo! ;)

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 07:28 PM

Were any contracts signed? I don't remember reading anything about anything being signed by Lindsey, so anything he said before he did so was tentative at best. ;)

And, from what I hear, fans weren't really disappointed once they went to the concerts. I'll let Chili pipe in with how ecstatic the crowds were. :laugh:

I remember an article at the time that said the tour was booked and I believe Mick said the tour was booked. Booked means contractual obligations :shrug:

jbrownsjr

05-04-2004, 07:29 PM

Wrong :laugh:

As I pointed out earlier, Stevie came back to FM when she clearly did not have to come back because at that time, she was one of the most popular rock stars in the world and could have continued down that line - after all TOTSTM sold over a million records and had a hit single. Yet, she came back She put up with the same FM BS LB put up with (I mean they were all guitly of it). Then, she went on tour despite it all. So, I think Stevie has the upper hand here :shrug: But, as Carne noted, this is about CM.

Absolutely, Stevie Nicks was like Phil Collins. They could have carried on w/o their respective bands. There is no doubt about that. But as Carne noted this is about CM lol! :lol:

GypsySorcerer

05-04-2004, 08:02 PM

I loved TITN! Love it love it love it. And it has the McVie/Buckingham solo feel to it, where SYW has that Nicks/Buckingham solo feel to it.

Agreed. CM and LB really shine on TITN. :thumbsup:

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 08:05 PM

Agreed. CM and LB really shine on TITN. :thumbsup:

ITA - I think TITN (the song) is one of his best. And - CM just soared on this record, esp. on "Isn't it Midnight?"

David

05-04-2004, 08:13 PM

I can honestly say I didn't hold it against LB for exiting. I remember being really sad.I was sitting there in front of a television in August 1987, after having spent the spring listening to interviews with Lindsey & Chris discuss how satisfying the "Tango" album was to them, & saw the MTV news clip reporting that he had quit. It was pretty surprising to me, & when MTV played the "Little Lies" video, it was sad. I was disappointed because I hadn't seen Buckingham onstage in five years, & had been looking forward to that.
I think it was very a respectable job covering the TITN tour on such short notice. I also thought the BTM tour was very good. I know many people did not think so, but I thought that FMac put on a very good show w/o Lindsey. The crowd in Cleveland (where i lived at the time) was going bezerk! I saw shows in Los Angeles & San Diego, & the audience was a typical Fleetwood Mac concert audience. Everything was fine, from the crowd's perspective. It was everyone's first exposure to post-cocaine Stevie, & I immediately sensed she was "slower." By the time the 1990 tour rolled around, Stevie was proving to be the weak link onstage. The "Mask" shows seemed rather sluggish, despite the fact that they were note-for-note copies of the arrangements on the 1987/88 tour.

David

05-04-2004, 08:28 PM

Wrong :laugh:

As I pointed out earlier, Stevie came back yet again to FM, perhaps out of love and loyalty, when she clearly did not have to come back because at that time or any other time, save 1997, because she was one of the most popular rock stars in the world and could have continued down that line - after all TOTSTM sold over a million records and had a hit single. Yet, she came back. She put up with the same FM BS LB put up with (I mean they were all guitly of it). Then, she went on tour despite it all. So, I think Stevie has the upper hand here :shrug:You've been listening to Stevie too much, strand. She always did like to emphasize the sacrifice angle, whether about Fleetwood Mac or about her own career or about children & husband & lifestyle & all that, blah blah blah. Maybe she stuck with Fleetwood because she loved the excitement of such a huge band (which seems likely) or because she wanted to help her friend Mick earn some money or for some other reason. Regardless of the reason, it wasn't a sacrifice. She didn't give up a solo career; she had a lovely solo career simultaneously. Fleetwood Mac, after about 1980, didn't prove to be much of a time suck for Stevie: a couple of weeks spent laying down some vocals & then off she went, usually until a tour started. And Fleetwood didn't do a huge trek until 1990, by which time her solo career had most definitely waned (as had Fleetwood Mac's standing).

Personally, I don't like to hear any of them talk about their "sacrifices" in regards to participating in a megaband rolling in fame & fortune year after year. If that's a "sacrifice," nail me up.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 08:34 PM

You've been listening to Stevie too much, strand. She always did like to emphasize the sacrifice angle, whether about Fleetwood Mac or about her own career or about children & husband & lifestyle & all that, blah blah blah. Maybe she stuck with Fleetwood because she loved the excitement of such a huge band (which seems likely) or because she wanted to help her friend Mick earn some money or for some other reason. Regardless of the reason, it wasn't a sacrifice. She didn't give up a solo career; she had a lovely solo career simultaneously. Fleetwood Mac, after about 1980, didn't prove to be much of a time suck for Stevie: a couple of weeks spent laying down some vocals & then off she went, usually until a tour started. And Fleetwood didn't do a huge trek until 1990, by which time her solo career had most definitely waned (as had Fleetwood Mac's standing).

Personally, I don't like to hear any of them talk about their "sacrifices" in regards to participating in a megaband rolling in fame & fortune year after year. If that's a "sacrifice," nail me up.

I was responding to the previous posts lauding LB for sacrificing his solo record and Les' comment that no other member made such a sacrifice. Stevie has never said she sacrificed her solo career for FM. Rather, she said she was happy to return for Mirage and that her solo career solely was an outlet to get more than four or so songs released every three years. I think she was happy to return for TITN. I just was noting that if it was as bad as LB said and he had to leave because of that, then kudos to Stevie for having the willingess to and for sticking it out despite that drama and despite her post-addiction issues. I mean can you imagine giving up coke and then being thrust back into the world that revolves around it and the same world that you say caused the addiction. So, I gotta give it up for her. That took guts especially when she could have never returned at all.

Note: I, too, get tired of Stevie saying she gave everything up for her music, but that does not negate the fact that she did :shrug:

Les

05-04-2004, 08:41 PM

Wrong :laugh:

Sorry, Strand, I will never see Stevie's behavior during the Tango sessions in the way that you do. I know she had a tour for part of the time. I know she has some personal problems for part of the time. With those things I sympathize and it's not something I hold against her. But those situations didn't span two years, and I do not see spending 10 days on an album as being a grand gesture of loyalty or commitment to the band. I never will. After having spent virtually no time with the band during the recording, she was in for the tour. Having spent all of his time recording, Lindsey made another choice.

I do not think and did not say that nobody else made sacrifices for this band, or that nobody else made an effort on Tango. But as for who really made the album -- who was there daily to put it together, to toss ideas around -- Lindsey & Christine were. Stevie was almost entirely absent. John and Mick were both struggling greatly with substance abuse issues.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 08:44 PM

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]Wrong :laugh:QUOTE]

Sorry, Strand, I will never see Stevie's behavior during the Tango sessions in the way that you do. I know she had a tour for part of the time. I know she has some personal problems for part of the time. With those things I sympathize and it's not something I hold against her. But I do not see her spending 10 days on an album as being a grand gesture of loyalty. I never will. She wanted to continue with the band. Lindsey did not. They made different choices.

As for who made the album. Who was there daily to put it together, to toss ideas around -- Lindsey & Christine.

I agree. But, the fact that Stevie went back at all and was willing to continue with all of the drama that LB could not deal with is a sacrifice by her you refuse to acknowledge. I think that is wrong and shows your clear bias against Stevie no matter what the facts state. But, if you do not see it now, you will never see it :cool:

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 08:49 PM

and FM must have wanted her back pretty bad to be willing to put up with her solo tour and her hospitalization for addiction. So, FM must have thought her input was of some merit? Otherwise, why wait?. Just do it without her? But, I think we all know they waited because without Stevie's input, TITN would not have sold as well. Then, when she gets there and makes the commitment despite what I am sure was pure hell for her after the addiction, LB says, I can't take it and he leaves. That is pretty horrible behavior on his part no matter what his excuse was and IMO shows a huge gesture on her part - she could have said see ya too and gone on to sell a million more solo records - yet she did not - she stuck it out. Yet, the LB supporters will NEVER EVER admit that :laugh: Then, the tour sells out or at least very, very well without LB at the helm, which IMO is a HUGE insult to him if not irony esp. since the same cannot be said if Stevie had backed out instead of LB. So, the debate rages on . . . :cool:

Again, there are days I cannot stand to go to work and am not the most social when I get there. But, I am a professional and do it with a smile anyway no matter what I might think of my co-workers, etc.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:02 PM

Finally, do not take anything I said as an insult to LB's musical genius. I like him and think he did a stelalr job on TITN mostly on his own. I think his songs are amngst the best he has ever done and I think he did a brilliant job with CM's already great stuff. I am just saying I think it was crappy for him to back out of a booked tour for personal reasons when the other four were willing to stick it out. I forgave him as a fan for this years ago. But, I still call a spade a spade.

Les

05-04-2004, 09:08 PM

I think that is wrong and shows your clear bias against Stevie no matter what the facts state. But, if you do not see it now, you will never see it :cool:

:laugh: Yes, my "clear bias against Stevie" is that I don't think she put much effort into the Tango album. Yep, I'm guilty. And of course the band wanted her around. She was an integral member of the band. I think it's just a shame that she wasn't much. I think they felt that way too.

Then, when she gets there and makes the commitment despite what I am sure was pure hell for her after the addiction, LB says, I can't take it and he leaves. That is pretty horrible behavior on his part and IMO shows a huge gesture on her part -

She actually says she was sailing right after her rehab. Felt better than ever. (Sadly, then shortly thereafter she was talked into Klonopin where it seems she felt very little at all.)

That aside, I've always thought it odd that she, having spent next to no time on the album, felt justified in lecturing Lindsey on his commitment to the band when he finally confessed that he didn't want to tour. I don't think either one of them shine brightly on the grounds of immense loyalty there, or had much room to be slamming each other on the topic given the circumstances.

I don't think it's horrible behavior on his part because I don't measure his choices merely by how they affect Stevie. He made a choice that was best for his own life. Just as Stevie did when she left, and Christine has done now.

Les

05-04-2004, 09:09 PM

But, I still call a spade a spade.

:xoxo: Me too!

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:09 PM

I do not think and did not say that nobody else made sacrifices for this band, or that nobody else made an effort on Tango.

I think that is what you said here:

Belittling the man's solo sales doesn't negate the fact that he stopped his personal project and gave two years of his life to the whole band instead. A band that he was thinking of leaving. It was a commitment that few in the band - perhaps only Christine - were willing or able to match. He could have left without doing the album. He could have insisted that they wait for him to do the solo album first. He could have insisted upon being allowed to do both, and just doing his personal little bits for Tango and then taking off again with little care about what else happend with the album. He didn't, thankfully.

Also, there were interviews at the time that said the band would send Stevie tracks on the road and she would work on those and other tracks and send them to the band. So, that adds time to Stevie's input and is further proof of her dedication to FM :shrug: In the end, who really cares anymore but we hardheads :laugh:

Les

05-04-2004, 09:13 PM

I think that is what you said here: <snip in the service of saving space>

I was talking about in relation to the Tango album. And again, I don't think anyone else in the band can say they were committed to the album in the way that Lindsey and Christine were.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:13 PM

I don't think it's horrible behavior on his part because I don't measure his choices merely by how they affect Stevie. He made a choice that was best for his own life. Just as Stevie did when she left, and Christine has done now.

Actually, I was thinking, as i have mentioned before, of the probably hundreds of people that would have been out of a job if MF had not been able to replace LB's seemingly capricious decision to leave once the tour was booked. So, I was not thinking of Stevie. I was saying Stevie recognized her obligation and stuck it out. LB chose not to. Those are the facts.

Les

05-04-2004, 09:15 PM

Actually, I was thinking, as i have mentioned before, of the probably hundreds of people that would have been out of a job if MF had not been able to replace LB's seemingly capricious decision to leave once the tour was booked. So, I was not thinking of Stevie. I was saying Stevie recognized her obligation and stuck it out. LB chose not to. Those are the facts.

Sure, and without a great album to tour behind, there wasn't a tour to be booked. ;)

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:15 PM

I was talking about in relation to the Tango album. And again, I don't think anyone else in the band can say they were committed to the album in the way that Lindsey and Christine were.

I know and agree with you that they made TITN what it was and, thankfully, they waited for SN, because her contributions on harmony and with Seven Wonders were significant. The other two songs are not as significant to me.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:16 PM

Sure, and without a great album to tour behind, there wasn't a tour to be booked. ;)

I agree, but that does not negate his leaving placing these jobs in jeapordy and the tour selling out or close to it without him :shrug:

Les

05-04-2004, 09:18 PM

I agree, but that does not negate his leaving placing these jobs in jeapordy and the tour selling out or close to it without him :shrug:

Nope it doesn't. I however do not place his personal mental health, or the mental health of any of the rest of them, beneath a job for somebody else.

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 09:57 PM

Sorry, Strand, I will never see Stevie's behavior during the Tango sessions in the way that you do. I know she had a tour for part of the time. I know she has some personal problems for part of the time. With those things I sympathize and it's not something I hold against her. But those situations didn't span two years, and I do not see spending 10 days on an album as being a grand gesture of loyalty or commitment to the band. I never will. After having spent virtually no time with the band during the recording, she was in for the tour. Having spent all of his time recording, Lindsey made another choice.

Well, in fairness, "some personal problems" were a decade+ cocaine addiction, a painful hole in her sinuses, and a stint in rehab. Which is quite a bit to be dealing with, while also trying to maintain one's professionalism and business commitments.

Stevie (and the rest of the band) has said that she was there "in the beginning," when the album was in the planning stages, but by the time recording commenced, she had embarked on the solo tour she was already committed to.
During the tour, she sent demos to Fleetwood Mac (including "Seven Wonders"), and stayed in touch with the band.
And when her solo tour was finished, she was rushed off to Betty Ford.

Once she was clean and sober, of course, she went into the studio with Fleetwood Mac... it just happened that by that time, the band was nearly finished with the album.

By the way, estimations place the start of recording on 'Tango' in Late-Spring/Early-Summer of 1986. The album was released in April of 1987... so the band didn't work without Stevie for two years. Sounds more like it was just under a year.

I'm not trying to paint Stevie as a martyr, but she could have just as easily cited "personal reasons" for not appearing on the album and/or not touring.

David

05-04-2004, 09:57 PM

Note: I, too, get tired of Stevie saying she gave everything up for her music, but that does not negate the fact that she did :shrug:
She did ... what? What do you "give up" for your "music"? A day job? Scrubbing toilets? Screaming kids? Waiting for your two weeks of vacation per year? Taking your car in twice a year for a lube & oil? Vacuuming the carpet? Cleaning the soap scum out of the shower? Balancing your checkbook & watching the money run down every month?

Suggested poll for all ledgies: Would you be willing to give up all of this for your music -- & make millions in the bargain? Tough choice, I know . . .

I mean, c'mon on!

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 10:01 PM

By the way, it's a pity that Christine's own forum has only been public for less than a week now, and we've already brought the Lindsey vs. Stevie debates here. :sorry:

Les

05-04-2004, 10:08 PM

Well, in fairness, "some personal problems" were a decade+ cocaine addiction, a painful hole in her sinuses, and a stint in rehab. Which is quite a bit to be dealing with, while also trying to maintain one's professionalism and business commitments.

I don't disagree with any of that.

By the way, estimations place the start of recording on 'Tango' in Late-Spring/Early-Summer of 1986. The album was released in April of 1987... so the band didn't work without Stevie for two years. Sounds more like it was just under a year.

Lindsey and Christine talk of recording for a solid 18 months in a few audio interviews I have. So how about we cut it down the middle? ;)

I'm not trying to paint Stevie as a martyr, but she could have just as easily cited "personal reasons" for not appearing on the album and/or not touring.

I agree again. And I wouldn't think her a horrible person for doing it. In fact, I almost think it might have been better for her health if she had.

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 10:08 PM

She did ... what? What do you "give up" for your "music"? A day job? Scrubbing toilets? Screaming kids? Waiting for your two weeks of vacation per year? Taking your car in twice a year for a lube & oil? Vacuuming the carpet? Cleaning the soap scum out of the shower? Balancing your checkbook & watching the money run down every month?

Suggested poll for all ledgies: Would you be willing to give up all of this for your music -- & make millions in the bargain? Tough choice, I know . . .

I mean, c'mon on!

Well, if it meant giving up my privacy, and having my love-life, weight and personal decisions debated, dissected, and denigrated in magazine articles and on message boards, I think I'd stick with toiling away in anonymity. ;)

Now, if I could be rich yet anonymous, I'd jump at the chance! :D

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 10:08 PM

Even when the discussion is Lindsey v. Christine, Stevie's legion of apologists feels compelled to come here and defend Stevie.

A quite telling phenomenon.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 10:09 PM

Fleetwood Mac is not Stevie Nicks, folks. Let's give the other members the respect they deserve.

David

05-04-2004, 10:11 PM

But, I think we all know they waited because without Stevie's input, TITN would not have sold as well. Then, when she gets there and makes the commitment [snip]Commitment to what, exactly? Ten days of laying down some funky-sounding studio vocals? I mean, lemme tell ya . . . GO, Stevie!
She could have said see ya too and gone on to sell a million more solo records - yet she did not - she stuck it out.She stuck what out, exactly? Ten days of laying down some funky-sounding studio vocals? A two-month tour? Man, that's tough!

Yet, the LB supporters will NEVER EVER admit that :laugh: Then, the tour sells out or at least very, very well without LB at the helm, which IMO is a HUGE insult to him if not irony esp. since the same cannot be said if Stevie had backed out instead of LB. So, the debate rages on . . . :cool:Yes, that's what it always boils down to, doesn't it? LB "supporters" are smoldering with frustrated rage because Stevie Nicks is a bigger star than Lindsey Buckingham. You nailed it, strand!
Again, there are days I cannot stand to go to work and am not the most social when I get there. But, I am a professional and do it with a smile anyway no matter what I might think of my co-workers, etc.I guess it's unfortunate, then, that you can't claim personal crises & drug addiction & buttinski management & God knows what all -- which would excuse you in the eyes of millions of Stevie Nicks fans -- if you ever felt like taking a year or two off from the job.

Les

05-04-2004, 10:14 PM

By the way, it's a pity that Christine's own forum has only been public for less than a week now, and we've already brought the Lindsey vs. Stevie debates here. :sorry:

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. It didn't start that way, but it seems to have inevitably gone that way. I'll opt out. It's gone on long enough. ;)

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 10:15 PM

Even when the discussion is Lindsey v. Christine, Stevie's legion of apologists feels compelled to come here and defend Stevie.

A quite telling phenomenon.

Only as telling as the fact that you defend Lindsey with equal vociferousness. ;)

David

05-04-2004, 10:15 PM

Even when the discussion is Lindsey v. Christine, Stevie's legion of apologists feels compelled to come here and defend Stevie.

A quite telling phenomenon.She's vivacious. She's blonde. She's with-it. She's pretty. It's no wonder people identify her with their misty ideals of long-suffering Romantic anguish.

David

05-04-2004, 10:17 PM

Only as telling as the fact that you defend Lindsey with equal vociferousness. ;)
I think it's really healthy (or healthful?) to see the potential for turditude & general all-around brattiness in all of them.

Except for ol' Bob Brunning, perhaps, who seems quite the nicest guy in or out of the band.

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 10:18 PM

By the way, I want the record to show that I didn't so much as even mention Stevie until Jason and Les' debate. ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

David

05-04-2004, 10:21 PM

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. It didn't start that way, but it seems to have inevitably gone that way. I'll opt out. It's gone on long enough. ;)It's Christine's own fault. She's always disliked & avoided her legions of fans!

As ye sow, Ms. McVie, so shall ye reap . . . .

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 10:23 PM

I think it's really healthy (or healthful?) to see the potential for turditude & general all-around brattiness in all of them.

Except for ol' Bob Brunning, perhaps, who seems quite the nicest guy in or out of the band.

"Turditude." I love it!!! :laugh:

As I've said dozens of times, and will say until I'm blue in the face... none of them are perfect, and they're all guilty of less-than-magnanimous behaviour from time to time.
Which is why it's so silly that we so often get locked into this pattern of arguing that our Power Ranger is cooler than the other kid's.

But, in addition to Bob Brunning, I think Rick Vito is right up there for most amiable member of Fleetwood Mac (although I suppose even he could be chided for "spoiled brat" behaviour for leaving over "creative differences," if one wants to be nit-picky). :D

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 10:47 PM

I think people also tend to forget that when John told Lindsey to leave, Lindsey felt he was being expelled from the band. Up to that point he was trying to talk the rest of the band into accepting that he simply couldn't face the tour. If things hadn't gotten so ugly, he might have done it. It wasn't entirely his fault. But the Lindsey haters will never see it that way.
:distress: :distress:

Well, if he did indeed think he was being fired, it was a misconception he no doubt didn't hold for too long. I'm posting an OOTC interview on my site now where Lindsey is asked by a caller, "Would you to go back to Fleetwood Mac if they begged?" His reply: "What makes you think they haven't?"

And I think they did. I think they begged hard-core, hands and knees, grovelling style. Or at least Mick did. So we can't go "aw, poor Lindsey, he thought he was fired." (Besides, I always took that line from John "I was asking him to leave the room, not the band!" as a joke.)

It does make me sad when I think of my poor sugar Lindsey crying alone in his car in the driveway, though! Bad times. :distress:

Mari

05-05-2004, 04:12 AM

You're right..you ARE going to get slammed for that one!..lol!...but really..definitely not the reason!..in fact there IS a gap left in Fleetwood Mac at the moment,and it's quite BIG. I'm so glad Christine's album is coming out soon,I miss her in the band.Also,I don't think the band suffered at all by Lindsey's leaving.Rick and Billy were great additions.

I'm going to bring back this discussion to CHRISTINE ;) (gee, I wasn't on the net for two days, had to read six pages of comments)

Ok, I'm not saying that Chris's departure didn't leave 'a' gap, it's not a black/white thing. I'm not saying Christine McVie didn't contribute a major part to the band, because she certainly did. And she is missed for that. I'm very excited to know she's back in music again!

But here's a point of discussion: why did they need to replace Lindsey with two new official bandmembers, where they had no official new member replacing Christine?

Mari

05-05-2004, 04:14 AM

You're just trying to start the Christine Forum's very first thread war, aren't ya? ;) :laugh:

Every board should have one :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Gailh

05-05-2004, 05:18 AM

But here's a point of discussion: why did they need to replace Lindsey with two new official bandmembers, where they had no official new member replacing Christine?

Just to add another note of controversy:

Maybe it took 2 people to replace Lindsey but Christine is irreplacable? :lol:

Seriously though I don't blame Lindsey for leaving just as I didn't blame Christine. I thought both departures were incredibly sad. Understandable but sad.

Gail

Mari

05-05-2004, 05:27 AM

Just to add another note of controversy:

Maybe it took 2 people to replace Lindsey but Christine is irreplacable? :lol:

You got me there :lol:

excellent!

macfan 57

05-05-2004, 06:39 AM

Maybe it took 2 people to replace Lindsey but Christine is irreplacable? :lol:

I was going to post exactly the same thing but Gail beat me to it. :D

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 08:02 AM

So we can't go "aw, poor Lindsey, he thought he was fired." (Besides, I always took that line from John "I was asking him to leave the room, not the band!" as a joke.)

Nancy, I happen to agree with you. It's just that in defending Stevie elements of this discussion (yes, you, Jason :lol: ) had crossed a fairly high threshhold of silliness. What's good for the goose... which come to think of it was the original thought for this thread anyway.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 08:20 AM

Yes, I suspect the vitriol directed at Lindsey to this day for leaving after the Tango sessions is a manifestation of what the Stevie fans know deep inside: Fleetwood Mac without Lindsey was rather uninteresting. He and Christine did stellar work for Tango, the band's second best-selling non-compilation album. To call Stevie's contributions to Tango mediocre would be too kind.

Be that as it may, I have never held Lindsey's decision to leave the band against him. Keep in mind that in 1997, I still considered myself more of a Stevie fan than Lindsey's. When I saw the press reports on Lindsey's departure, I could tell he was being treated unfairly. Regardless of whether he had agreed to tour, the fact is he worked on Tango more than any other band member, except perhaps for Christine. He busted his rump, with little support from three band members, then when he decided he'd had enough with this dysfunctional bunch, they all jumped on him. Problem is they were in no legitimate position to react the way they did. They were being hypocritical and unfair. Except for Christine of course. Stevie was rather unkind toward her former lover at the time considering she barely bothered to go into the studio.

As a matter of fact, this was a turning point for me. After Rock a Little and Stevie's contributions to Tango, I decided that she no longer interested me. Meanwhile, I had become quite enamored of Lindsey's Go Insane album, and Tango became one of my favorite albums ever, Stevie's work notwithstanding. By 1992, having seen what the band was capable of without Lindsey, I had become a full-fledged Lindsey fan, and I had great hopes he would have huge solo career without ever returning to FM. Unfortunately that did not happen, despite the brilliance of OOTC.

Just as I didn't hold Lindsey's departure against him, I didn't think Christine made a bad decision for leaving the band. Her studio participation in Time was weird to me because I had already seen the band perform without her. When she decided to leave after the short Dance tour, I suspected she was just sick of these people and simply had no desire to work with them anymore. I still do. And her subsequent decision to stay out of SYW but record her own album confirms my suspicions.

Interestingly enough, I didn't even realize for a long time Stevie had left the band after Mask. I had stopped paying attention to Fleetwood Mac for a while. Time piqued my interest for about five minutes, but what I really was hoping for was a Lindsey album. Then came the The Dance and the rest is history.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 09:39 AM

Even when the discussion is Lindsey v. Christine, Stevie's legion of apologists feels compelled to come here and defend Stevie.

A quite telling phenomenon.

PPUUHHHLLLEEEZZZEEEEE - This is the typical LB egoists picking the fight and then blaming the Chiffonheads for screaming foul :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 09:41 AM

PPUUHHHLLLEEEZZZEEEEE - This is the typical LB egoists picking the fight and then blaming the Chiffonheads for screaming foul :laugh:

How daaaaaaaare you!!??? :lol:

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 10:16 AM

Nancy, I happen to agree with you. It's just that in defending Stevie elements of this discussion (yes, you, Jason :lol: ) had crossed a fairly high threshhold of silliness. What's good for the goose... which come to think of it was the original thought for this thread anyway.

Since when is stating the facts silly :shrug: Yet, the LB egoists refuse to acknowledge them and call people silly for stating them :rolleyes:

jbrownsjr

05-05-2004, 10:18 AM

I'm going to bring back this discussion to CHRISTINE ;) (gee, I wasn't on the net for two days, had to read six pages of comments)

Ok, I'm not saying that Chris's departure didn't leave 'a' gap, it's not a black/white thing. I'm not saying Christine McVie didn't contribute a major part to the band, because she certainly did. And she is missed for that. I'm very excited to know she's back in music again!

But here's a point of discussion: why did they need to replace Lindsey with two new official bandmembers, where they had no official new member replacing Christine?

Well it's kind of hard to run a rock band without a guitar player. Keyboards are secondary in rock. Especially the way FMac and Christine used them.

dissention

05-05-2004, 10:41 AM

dissention

05-05-2004, 10:43 AM

I remember an article at the time that said the tour was booked and I believe Mick said the tour was booked. Booked means contractual obligations :shrug:

Not neceassarily. You know how Mick is.

And what is this contract for Christine recording Time that everyone is speaking of? What contract did she have that Stevie didn't?

dissention

05-05-2004, 10:48 AM

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 10:48 AM

She came back? Just barely. I seem to remember most of her parts being phoned-in and then a big discussion took place where Stevie bitched about barely being on the record. TITN was a Buckingham McVie album, with a sprinkling of Nicks to taste.

I agree. I have never said she was there 100%. What I am saying, have said, and will always say is FM was willing to work with her while she was on the road and were willing to wait for her to get through her hospitalization for her addiction. That was great of them to do that and that they did that must mean they like her and thought her work/presence was of merit. I think they also did it because at the time she was very, very popular and her presence on the record guaranteed a certain number of sales as did her presence on the tour. Yet, when I say this, people think I am slamming LB or saying TITN was all Stevie or an awful record. I am not. I am just saying Stevie made a considerable effort to fit TITN into her schedule when she did not have to do so and she was sick. I think that shows unquestionable loyalty on her part; it does not mean TITN was not LB's brilliant product that was the result of hard work or that CM did not give far more time than Stevie did. But, people cannot see that and thus, the LB v. SN debate rages on.

chiliD

05-05-2004, 10:49 AM

Maybe it took 2 people to replace Lindsey...

:mad:

Don't get me started...it won't be pretty.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 10:51 AM

The success of the singles paint a different picture.

But, I suppose I'll hear that Little Lies was only a success because La Nicks' voice was prominent on it. ;)

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that if La Nicks had bailed from the project altogether that it would have sold as well as it did :laugh: PPUUUHHHLLLEEEZZZZEEEEE!!!!

Here again, I think it should have as LB and CM FAR outshine Stevie on this record. But, Stevie has a star power that neither Lb nor CM have and that is sad because none of the three are any better in my book. Yet, people just want to see Stevie more. I can't explain it. I just know it. I mean she was crowned the Queen of Rock and Roll and has been in the spotlight FAR more than anyone else in the band. This does not take away from the musical genius of LB who was responsible for the majority of the reason behind Stevie's FM hits or from CM's beautiful work.

As an aside, LB's production of LL was brilliant int he way he had the "three" seemingly calling to each other in the chorus of LL. Kudos to LB.

dissention

05-05-2004, 10:55 AM

Then, when she gets there and makes the commitment despite what I am sure was pure hell for her after the addiction, LB says, I can't take it and he leaves. That is pretty horrible behavior on his part no matter what his excuse was and IMO shows a huge gesture on her part - she could have said see ya too and gone on to sell a million more solo records - yet she did not - she stuck it out. Yet, the LB supporters will NEVER EVER admit that :laugh: Then, the tour sells out or at least very, very well without LB at the helm, which IMO is a HUGE insult to him if not irony esp. since the same cannot be said if Stevie had backed out instead of LB. So, the debate rages on . . . :cool:

You're delusional. :laugh:

Now we're supposed to empathize and consider Lindsey's behavior to be bad because he chose not to tour at the exact time Stevie was fresh outta rehab and going through personal turmoil? Gimme a break. Ever heard of personal accountability? Sorry, if she was in such hell, tough tacos because she did it to herself. Let's not twist this around and make it a no-no on Lindsey's part to leave because Stevie wasn't feeling well. Boo hoo.

What no one seems to get is that, it seems, Lindsey couldn't take the drama anymore, he didn't think it was healthy, he was working with people he no longer knew, and he wanted out. Let's not compare his resignation from his "job" to a normal job and relationships we have with our co-workers; they're wildly different. I don't suppose that any of you work with drug addicts all the time, people who are bitter, and people just out of the booby hatch. I don't think you;d want to go trolloping around the country with those people every night for months, would you? But, some people just want to make Lindsey out to be the bad ass all of the time and don't want to make any of the others band members accountable for the behavior that they had that MADE the guy leave.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 11:00 AM

dissention

05-05-2004, 11:00 AM

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that if La Nicks had bailed from the project altogether that it would have sold as well as it did :laugh: PPUUUHHHLLLEEEZZZZEEEEE!!!!

Here again, I think it should have as LB and CM FAR outshine Stevie on this record. But, Stevie has a star power that neither Lb nor CM have and that is sad because none of the three are any better in my book. Yet, people just want to see Stevie more. I can't explain it. I just know it. I mean she was crowned the Queen of Rock and Roll and has been in the spotlight FAR more than anyone else in the band. This does not take away from the musical genius of LB who was responsible for the majority of the reason behind Stevie's FM hits or from CM's beautiful work.

As an aside, LB's production of LL was brilliant int he way he had the "three" seemingly calling to each other in the chorus of LL. Kudos to LB.

No, it wouldn't have sold as well initially. But I think that in general, the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster (and I'm being nice!!) material. And that's why none of it was really successful; even the best of them all, Seven Wonders, just barely hit the top twenty.

I'm not going to give the woman kudos for coming back for 10 days with a song she didn't write, another that was simply a jumble of shit, and another that sounded like it was recorded by a chipmunk with a throat cold; it all just showed a lack of effort on her part when it was presented next to the amazing material from Chris and Linds. The record company certainly knew it, as reflected in the singles that were chosen to be released.

And Stevie's popularity was waning with the public after it's release, anyways. (And even before that.)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 11:04 AM

No, it wouldn't have sold as well initially. But I think that in general, the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster (and I'm being nice!!) material. And that's why none of it was really successful; even the best of them all, Seven Wonders, just barely hit the top twenty.

I'm not going to give the woman kudos for coming back for 10 days with a song she didn't write, another that was simply a jumble of shit, and another that sounded like it was recorded by a chipmunk with a throat cold; it all just showed a lack of effort on her part when it was presented next to the amazing material from Chris and Linds. The record company certainly knew it, as reflected in the singles that were chosen to be released.

And Stevie's popularity was waning with the public after it's release, anyways. (And even before that.)

I guess we will never know for sure. But, I think it is highly unlikely the tour would have sold out the arenas it did without Stevie there. I mean, if you can believe Mick's book, FM readily put Stevie's voice all over TITN to make sure she was heard :shrug:

dissention

05-05-2004, 11:06 AM

Once again and listen carefully this time :laugh: - I think it was bad of LB to leave because he had committed to the tour. I think Stevie was stronger in this regard because she did not let her personal problems get in the way of her professionalism. LB did. Spin it anyway you want, but those are the facts. Plus, I think you should turn that personal accountability venom on LB - after all he chose to record this record - no one made him. Then, he agreed to a tour that he backed out of :rolleyes:

:xoxo: You know I love ya, you damn Chiffonhead. But...

Puhleaze. He did not commit. He did not sign any contracts. If he had, THEN he would've been committed. Do you honestly thinkt hat he signed them and then said no? Do you think Mick and the rest of the band would've gone for that? I think not, my dear Chiffonhead.

As for the personal problems and professionalism argument, I'll let Stevie's participation in the record speak for itself. But the argument really doesn't hold water because the situation so out of control that any normal person in that situation would've said goodbye. Like I said, instead of laying blame on Lindsey for doing the right and healthy thing, let's look at how the behaviors of the band led to it. It's easy to lay blame on the person who had the balls to quit, but it doesn't seem easy for you Stevie supporters to look at her and everyone elses part in it.

dissention

05-05-2004, 11:07 AM

I guess we will never know for sure. But, I think it is highly unlikely the tour would have sold out the arenas it did without Stevie there. I mean, if you can believe Mick's book, FM readily put Stevie's voice all over TITN to make sure she was heard :shrug:

:laugh:

No they didn't. They added her to a couple of songs very discreetly and buried her in the mix. If you read it carefully, Christine was rather pissed at Stevie for bringing that up and put her in her place (and rightfully so).

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 11:10 AM

:laugh:

No they didn't. They added her to a couple of songs very discreetly and buried her in the mix. If you read it carefully, Christine was rather pissed at Stevie for bringing that up and put her in her place (and rightfully so).

But, then Stevie apologized and everything was fine :shrug: - according to Mick's book which is the only source we have. I believe Mick said they happily put Stevie on the record.

Cammie

05-05-2004, 11:15 AM

:wavey: Hi Lis,
Thanks for adding a Christine McVie :laugh: Ledge Thread!:]
Ms. Perfect is a well trained Musical Ledgend of exceptional
caliber! TITN is a Chris&Lindsey Masterpiece!!! :woohoo: :lol:Cudos!!!

Thanks for the Mojo article! Explains the problem "Perfectly"!!!

About TITN Tour...Stevie begged Lindsey to go out on this tour
and he crossed her... by saying NO, so she "tried to kill him"!:mad:
Christine always was the member "with her feet on the ground"!Sky:)

dissention

05-05-2004, 11:21 AM

But, then Stevie apologized and everything was fine :shrug: - according to Mick's book which is the only source we have. I believe Mick said they happily put Stevie on the record.

Remember, this is all from mick's perspective. He can't speak for how Christine or anyone else felt.

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 11:42 AM

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:33 PM

Since when is stating the facts silly :shrug: Yet, the LB egoists refuse to acknowledge them and call people silly for stating them :rolleyes:

Stating the fact ain't silly. Silly is trying to argue that Stevie was presumably giving up so much to spend 10 days in the studio for Tango and then tour for a couple of months. :)

Merf

05-05-2004, 12:43 PM

About TITN Tour...Stevie begged Lindsey to go out on this tour
and he crossed her... by saying NO, so she "tried to kill him"!:mad:

In what alternate universe did this happen?

From what I remember of the "story," Stevie started screaming at him and he had his hands around her neck. She has been quoted saying that she said to Lindsey "if you kill me, my father and my brother will kill you" or something like that. He realized what he was doing and he backed off. I don't think Stevie tried to "kill him" and it's ludicrous to say that.

Stevie and Lindsey BOTH handled the situation very badly but Stevie did not try to kill him.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:44 PM

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that if La Nicks had bailed from the project altogether that it would have sold as well as it did :laugh: PPUUUHHHLLLEEEZZZZEEEEE!!!!

Jason, Dissention makes an excellent point. Little Lies and Big Love were big hits. Seven Wonders did OK. Also, at the time I remember hearing Everywhere, Family Man, Mystified and Isn't It Midnight on the radio. A lot. I remember being surprised at Family Man's airplay. Seven Wonders is a forgotten song for most poeple. But you can't say that about Little Lies and Big Love.

In my ever-so-humble opinion, Tango would have been much better if Welcome to the Room and When I See You again were dropped, and You and I Part I were added. Then there would be no sucky songs in it at all.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:46 PM

What no one seems to get is that, it seems, Lindsey couldn't take the drama anymore, he didn't think it was healthy, he was working with people he no longer knew, and he wanted out. Let's not compare his resignation from his "job" to a normal job and relationships we have with our co-workers; they're wildly different. ... But, some people just want to make Lindsey out to be the bad ass all of the time and don't want to make any of the others band members accountable for the behavior that they had that MADE the guy leave.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Lindsey has called leaving the band a survival move and I can totally see how it would come to that.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:51 PM

Stevie and Lindsey BOTH handled the situation very badly but Stevie did not try to kill him.

She has said she wanted to kill him. It was in the heat of the moment, mind you.

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 12:53 PM

it all just showed a lack of effort on her part when it was presented next to the amazing material from Chris and Linds. The record company certainly knew it, as reflected in the singles that were chosen to be released.

I agree that Little Lies was the best thing on the album and definitely deserved to be the first single. However, the record company also thought it would be a great idea to release FIVE re-mixes of "Family Man." Their "instincts" are not always the best gauge of what would strike people's fancies. I know there are holdouts, but most people put Family Man on the "excruciating to listen to" list, right next to WISYA and WTTR...S.

Mari

05-05-2004, 12:53 PM

Well it's kind of hard to run a rock band without a guitar player. Keyboards are secondary in rock. Especially the way FMac and Christine used them.

doesn't that mean that Lindsey was a more important member of the band than Christine?
:p

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:55 PM

Like I said, instead of laying blame on Lindsey for doing the right and healthy thing, let's look at how the behaviors of the band led to it. It's easy to lay blame on the person who had the balls to quit, but it doesn't seem easy for you Stevie supporters to look at her and everyone elses part in it.

Well said. I think most of us, even those who blast Lindsey for it, would have probably reached the same conclusion he did. Clearly, he wasn't legally bound to do the tour, or Mick would have sued his pants off. How fair is it to knock him when clearly the rest of the band, except for maybe Christine, fostered this environment that was a living hell for him? Let's look at it this way, can someone give us a good reason for him to have stayed?

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 12:57 PM

I know there are holdouts, but most people put Family Man on the "excruciating to listen to" list, right next to WISYA and WTTR...S.

If you ask me, all the remixes are pretty excruciating. But as I mentioned before, hearing Family Man on the radio was a bit of a shock for me. Tango is undeniably Lindsey's and Christine's masterpiece. Despite its 80s sheen, it is still a wonderful piece of work.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:02 PM

Jason, Dissention makes an excellent point. Little Lies and Big Love were big hits. Seven Wonders did OK. Also, at the time I remember hearing Everywhere, Family Man, Mystified and Isn't It Midnight on the radio. A lot. I remember being surprised at Family Man's airplay. Seven Wonders is a forgotten song for most poeple. But you can't say that about Little Lies and Big Love.

In my ever-so-humble opinion, Tango would have been much better if Welcome to the Room and When I See You again were dropped, and You and I Part I were added. Then there would be no sucky songs in it at all.

I agree. And what do you think of the Family Man video? I watched for the first time in a long time last night and laughed my ass off for an hour straight. :lol:

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 01:03 PM

I agree. And what do you think of the Family Man video? I watched for the first time in a long time last night and laughed my ass off for an hour straight. :lol:

I've never seen it. I assume Lindsey's not in it. What do they do the whole time?! Show Mick mouthing "I am what I am, am what I am, am what I am, am what I am" and making contorted faces?

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:05 PM

I agree that Little Lies was the best thing on the album and definitely deserved to be the first single. However, the record company also thought it would be a great idea to release FIVE re-mixes of "Family Man." Their "instincts" are not always the best gauge of what would strike people's fancies. I know there are holdouts, but most people put Family Man on the "excruciating to listen to" list, right next to WISYA and WTTR...S.

Apples and oranges. I don't remember ever hearing a Family Man remix on the radio. The song itself, yeah, but not the remixes. Those were just on the vinyls. And Family Man got great reception if it was played on the radio. Can you imagine the thoughts of radio stations upon hearing the new FM single WISYA or WTTR...S? I shudder to think. :lol:

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:07 PM

I've never seen it. I assume Lindsey's not in it. What do they do the whole time?! Show Mick mouthing "I am what I am, am what I am, am what I am, am what I am" and making contorted faces?

They show many clips from the Seven Wonders video of Lindsey playing guitar and Stevie twirling with her boobs falling out, then they intersperse old, old, old B&W footage of fat women eating dinner with their family and scenes from what could've been the sequel to Grapes of Wrath. :laugh: Families all lined up outside their beaten-down houses, kids running through the dirt, etc.

It's all pretty horrendous. :nod:

Mari

05-05-2004, 01:08 PM

I think I understand now why it's kind of quiet on the Lindsey-ledge :rolleyes:
The Lindsey-discussion takes place elsewhere.. ;)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:09 PM

Sighs!

I think there are three sep. issues here. Let me try to clarify.

1. Stevie made time in her life to be a part of TITN when she did not have to do this from a career point of view and it was hard on her. She was obligated to tour for RAL and went into rehab. Immediately after getting out of rehab she went back to FM to participate in the process that caused her to go into rehab - also rehab is a slightly humiliating process and I am sure that effected her when working with her former lover - it would have me :shrug: That she went at all I think that is a plus for her. I think it shows loyalty to the band that made her of the most famous women in the world and to the engineer of her FM body of work. Could she have been there more? I do not know. Do I fault her for it - no. Again, LB could have released his solo record and then in 1988, they could have started to record the next FM record as a band. They all chose not to do this and instead do it the way they did it.

I do not get why people cannot give her this credit. All they can say is "she was there for ten days" which is not true considering they communicated while she was on the road. But, people will always fault her for this and wrongly so IMO and for the reasons stated.

2. TITN was LB's concept and he is responsible for it along with the significant contributions of CM and the rest of FM. Stevie is not responsible for the making of TITN in any significant way. I think everyone agrees with that. Yet, it is hard to ignore that FM waited for SN to complete the record. Again, I think that means they found merit in her and her work/contributions, despite what some outside of FM may think of it. Plus, FM is not stupid, they knew the record would sell better if the highly popular SN was associated with it. Yes, her single was not as popular, but she was. Again, I do not think that is fair, because LB and CM are both very talented people on their own and certainly do not need Stevie as a validation of this extreme talent. But, Stevie's face had the ability to sell then and still does to a lesser degree. So, I think that is a big part of the reason why FM and/or their label insisted on waiting for her. In the end, I am glad they did. I love Seven Wonders and think the three voices sound great on it as well as LL and Everywhere. I think these three songs would be less without the three voices.

3. LB made the decision to record the FM record and then opted out of the tour (contract or not, the tour was booked and LB certainly knew they would tour to support the record). I get that it was a survival move on his part. I just think it was crappy of him to get involved in the first place and then back out when it got tough on him. I analogized this to Stevie and CM who probably did not want to be there just as much as LB. But, they stuck it out for the tour. Also, Stevie never had to be there in the first place. She could have kept on with her solo career, which was at that time still very successful. Interestingly, everyone blames all of the drama on everyone but LB. I think LB, SN, CM, and the rest of FM all had equal parts in that. Yet, no one assigns any blame to LB. Instead, they point at issue no. 1 and demonize Stevie for not being there for the recording of the record :shrug: The two are sep. in my book.

But, the agrument rages on . . .

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:09 PM

If you ask me, all the remixes are pretty excruciating. But as I mentioned before, hearing Family Man on the radio was a bit of a shock for me. Tango is undeniably Lindsey's and Christine's masterpiece. Despite its 80s sheen, it is still a wonderful piece of work.

I actually quite like the Little Lies remixes. :shocked:

jbrownsjr

05-05-2004, 01:10 PM

doesn't that mean that Lindsey was a more important member of the band than Christine?
:p

Yes, I would say so. But not important enough to stop the band. :thumbsup:
And they do have two back-up keyboardists filling in for Christine.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:12 PM

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:15 PM

Well said. I think most of us, even those who blast Lindsey for it, would have probably reached the same conclusion he did. Clearly, he wasn't legally bound to do the tour, or Mick would have sued his pants off. How fair is it to knock him when clearly the rest of the band, except for maybe Christine, fostered this environment that was a living hell for him? Let's look at it this way, can someone give us a good reason for him to have stayed?

I have often wondered if he was legally bound. I mean it if he had been, it would have done no good to sue him for specific performance and made him play at shows. That would have never worked. Also, FM could have sued him for damages from his breach of contract. But, he made the videos (assuming they were not made before his exit) and the concert essentially sold out without him. So, there would be no damages in contract from his breach. Plus, without a copy of the contact he had with FM, we have no way of knowing whether he could exit at anytime by paying a fee to buy out the contract. It is possible he did this and no one knows about it.

And - my good reason for LB staying would be to live up to his end of the deal. But and again, if he was hell bent of going, then he should have and did go. I just think it was not very nice of him to do that.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:16 PM

Let's just say, Carne, that if it was Stevie who had left the band, we wouldn't be having these discussions. The Stevie fans who so ferociously support her for everything would be arguing what we're currently arguing about Lindsey. ;)

I was just going to say, if Stevie had left the band, it would have been "Stevie is so selfish" "Stevie never cared that LB made her" etc. :laugh: :rolleyes:

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:18 PM

I have often wondered if he was legally bound. I mean it if he had been, it would have done no good to sue him for specific performance and made him play at shows. That would have never worked. Also, FM could have sued him for damages from his breach of contract. But, he made the videos (assuming they were not made before his exit) and the concert essentially sold out without him. So, there would be no damages in contract from his breach. Plus, without a copy of the contact he had with FM, we have no way of knowing whether he could exit at anytime by paying a fee to buy out the contract. It is possible he did this and no one knows about it.

And - my good reason for LB staying would be to live up to his end of the deal. But and again, if he was hell bent of going, then he should have and did go. I just think it was not very nice of him to do that.

They could've sued him for millions. They could've sued him for breach of contract and had the courts specify how much the damages were when a verdict was reached (look at Kim Basinger and her "Boxing Helena" case).

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:19 PM

I was just going to say, if Stevie had left the band, it would have been "Stevie is so selfish" "Stevie never cared that LB made her" etc. :laugh: :rolleyes:

Not from me. Any band member that left at that point and time would have just as much of my support and arguments that Lindsey currently has. :lol:

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:21 PM

They could've sued him for millions. They could've sued him for breach of contract and had the courts specify how much the damages were when a verdict was reached (look at Kim Basinger and her "Boxing Helena" case).

Again, FM had no damages. KB was slammed because the production company lost millions redoing it and it could have made more if she was in it, etc. FM on the other hand had a hit record and a sold out world tour. Where are the damages in contract. There are none. Plus, I am sure his contract had a specificed damages clause. Maybe it did not. But, if it did not, he needs a new lawyer :laugh:

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:24 PM

Again, FM had no damages. KB was slammed because the production company lost millions redoing it and it could have made more if she was in it, etc. FM on the other hand had a hit record and a sold out world tour. Where are the damages in contract. There are none. Plus, I am sure his contract had a specificed damages clause. Maybe it did not. But, if it did not, he needs a new lawyer :laugh:

Good points. ;)

But still, I contend that no contracts were signed. :lol:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:25 PM

I get that it was a survival move on his part. I just think it was crappy of him to get involved in the first place and then back out when it got tough on him.

Why are you so sympathetic to Stevie's need to exorcize her demons but not to Lindsey's? You don't see that as bias?

Bottom line: Lindsey was there. He busted his ass to create a masterpiece that gave FM the kinds of sales the band hadn't enjoyed in a decade. Stevie was off doing whatever she needed to and that's fine. But her contribution was minimal, it was subpar and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave.

Stevie, Mick and John should have gotten on their knees and thank Lindsey for Tango, which was a great album. Instead they demonized him the press. They were disloyal and ungrateful.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:28 PM

I was just going to say, if Stevie had left the band, it would have been "Stevie is so selfish" "Stevie never cared that LB made her" etc. :laugh: :rolleyes:

I think Lindsey's fans have shown their ilk in not vilifying Christine for wanting to leave. And if they can be that forgiving to Christine, whose musical contribution to FM was at least triple that of Stevie's over the years, I'm sure they could forgive Stevie. Even as I framed this thread I was careful not to gratuitously slam Christine for leaving the band. I support her decision.

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 01:30 PM

I was going to completely drop all mention of Stevie after last night, but since this thread has had another three pages since then, and discussions of Stevie's involvement are still cropping up, I'll take this opportunity to add a few points.

One being that "the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster material."
Take a look at reviews for 'Tango' on Amazon.com, and you'll see... along with the folks who dislike Stevie's 'Tango' contributions... quite a number of people who like them quite a bit, right alongside LB's and Christine's songs.

Also, when I first bought the album in 1987, I thought Lindsey & Christine's contributions were all shallow and too "pop."
To me then, and even now, Stevie's contributions added depth and a human element. They are different thematically, and rather heavy next to stuff like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

Next, the fact that "Seven Wonders" charted at "only" #19 is "proof" that Stevie's songs weren't up to snuff.
One must consider the fact that, just the year prior she had three songs on the airwaves. All in the Hot 100... one of which peaked at #4, and the other peaking in the top 20. The latter two singles were nearly inescapable during late '85 and throughout 1986.

Never underestimate how quickly the public burns out on someone. And heck, #19 ain't all bad... "Family Man" only peaked at #90 after all!
Was it because people felt the song was lame, or was it just burn-out on the public's part, due to the fact that FM had already released four singles prior to "Family Man"?

Also, if we're to absolve Lindsey of any sins, because he was getting out of a bad situation, then why is it so wrong to offer Stevie the same level of forgiveness for being at a low point in her life, and having myriad personal problems?

And one last point...

Yes, I suspect the vitriol directed at Lindsey to this day for leaving after the Tango sessions is a manifestation of what the Stevie fans know deep inside: Fleetwood Mac without Lindsey was rather uninteresting.

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey? ;)

This is how I see it:

A lot of people feel that Lindsey should have honored his commitments and toured for 'Tango.'
A lot of people feel that Stevie should have committed herself more to the project, and worked harder on her contributions.
Some feel he was wrong, some feel she was wrong, and some feel both were wrong for how they handled their part in the whole drama.

Quite personally I think it's silly to hold either of them accountable for what they did seventeen years ago.
We weren't living their lives... they were. Their choices, right or wrong, were their own.
They've moved onward and upward, and presumably have long since stopped playing "the blame game"... and we should too. :nod: :)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:31 PM

Why are you so sympathetic to Stevie's need to exorcize her demons but not to Lindsey's? You don't see that as bias?

Bottom line: Lindsey was there. He busted his ass to create a masterpiece that gave FM the kinds of sales the band hadn't enjoyed in a decade. Stevie was off doing whatever she needed to and that's fine. But her contribution was minimal, it was subpar and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave.

Stevie, Mick and John should have gotten on their knees and thank Lindsey for Tango, which was a great album. Instead they demonized him the press. They were disloyal and ungrateful.

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through. Again, I agree LB did a magnificent job on TITN and agree the band should thank him. It is his last minute withdrawal from the tour I do not agree with. I mean that was disloyal to the band IMO. Again, CM and, perhaps more so, Stevie did what they had to do to be there despite being in the same drama. How can anyone argue against that :shrug: Yet, people refuse to acknowledge Stevie's plight and instead use it to glorify LB's decision to leave the band.

BTW - once again, people shout horrible things about Stevie and neglect to mention LB's similar bad acts to wit " . . . and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave." My recollection and the recollection of everyone in the band is LB was no gentleman to Stevie on that fateful day. Moreover, Mick said and no one has refuted, that they were happy to add Stevie into the mix once she complained. So . . .

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:33 PM

Amen Brian! :nod:

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:36 PM

I think Lindsey's fans have shown their ilk in not vilifying Christine for wanting to leave. And if they can be that forgiving to Christine, whose musical contribution to FM was at least triple that of Stevie's over the years, I'm sure they could forgive Stevie. Even as I framed this thread I was careful not to gratuitously slam Christine for leaving the band. I support her decision.

When Christine left, it was not right aroung the release of a record and right before the start of a world tour. Moreover, Christine had let it be know that she wanted to leave, etc. Then, she stayed on to record with FM but not tour. The situations are very different IMO. Again, LB took on the project and backed out of the last half of it, when everyone else agreed to stay.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:38 PM

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey? ;)

I don't really get your point there. Sorry, Johnny. Maybe you can explain it better.

Quite personally I think it's silly to hold either of them accountable for what they did seventeen years ago.
We weren't living their lives... they were. Their choices, right or wrong, were their own.

I can't argue with that. I only wish Stevie fans would get that. After all, we were originally talking about Christine anyway.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:40 PM

One being that "the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster material."
Take a look at reviews for 'Tango' on Amazon.com, and you'll see... along with the folks who dislike Stevie's 'Tango' contributions... quite a number of people who like them quite a bit, right alongside LB's and Christine's songs.

And Amazon.com is really reflective of the general public who bought TITN back in'87, right? No. I've read them before and they're populated mostly by reviews from hardcore's like us.

Also, when I first bought the album in 1987, I thought Lindsey & Christine's contributions were all shallow and too "pop."
To me then, and even now, Stevie's contributions added depth and a human element. They are different thematically, and rather heavy next to stuff like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

And...aren't you a Stevie fan, first and foremost?

Next, the fact that "Seven Wonders" charted at "only" #19 is "proof" that Stevie's songs weren't up to snuff.
One must consider the fact that, just the year prior she had three songs on the airwaves. All in the Hot 100... one of which peaked at #4, and the other peaking in the top 20. The latter two singles were nearly inescapable during late '85 and throughout 1986.

Yeah, all of which came to a halt with Tango. Her single did the terrible compared to the others and her next album had one single (that wasn't int he top ten) and only sold gold. Are we forgetting that each of her albums got less and less successful? Her schtick was growing old with the public, Le Stew.

Never underestimate how quickly the public burns out on someone. And heck, #19 ain't all bad... "Family Man" only peaked at #90 after all!
Was it because people felt the song was lame, or was it just burn-out on the public's part, due to the fact that FM had already released four singles prior to "Family Man"?."

Yeah, sort of how they got burned out on Stevie's over-the-top ridiculousness in the eighties. I suspect that Family Man failed because it was the last single and was released quite awhile after the album was released. It still doesn't lend any credence to the belief that Stevie was still as popular as ever.

Also, if we're to absolve Lindsey of any sins, because he was getting out of a bad situation, then why is it so wrong to offer Stevie the same level of forgiveness for being at a low point in her life, and having myriad personal problems?

I have much forgiveness and sympathy for the boat she was in. I just find it ridiculous for some to say that Lindsey's quitting was an awful thing to do because "Stevie was in such a bad place." I find that argument ridiculous. Lindsey left because he had grown tired of a situation that grew worse and worse as time passed...so, he left. Tough titty. If it was Stevie who left, you'd all be crying "Well, she had a lot of personal problems." Yeah, as if her problems were any worse than Lindsey's? I think not.

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey? ;)

I never said any of those things, talk to Carne. :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:43 PM

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through.

DUDE, SHE WAS NOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH!!! You blast the man for leaving after he gave the band a masterpiece and you continue to praise Stevie for giving the band three pieces of shit and barely committing any time to the project.

Yet, people refuse to acknowledge Stevie's plight and instead use it to glorify LB's decision to leave the band.

Oh come on, no one is gorifying anyone's decision for leaving anything here. No one has said Lindsey is an angel for leaving before the tour started. Besides, you brought up the Stevie issue. The issue was why was Christine not blasted for leaving FM but Lindsey was?

The way I see it Stevie's commitment to FM in 1986-87 was begrudging at best. And her contributions to what could have been a perfect album are proof of it.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:44 PM

Dissention, you point about TOTOTM is not relevant. In 1986 when TITN was recorded Stevie was extememly popular. That is the facts FM was dealing with - not her popularity in 1989 :shrug:

For the record, I never said "Lindsey's quitting was an awful thing to do because 'Stevie was in such a bad place.'" I said LB's quitting was awful because of the timing.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:45 PM

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through.

What aren't you getting?

Stevie was part of the problem for Lindsey. The drama was at its height and he didn't feel like he could go through months of months of the emotional rollercoaster of FM at that time in his life. So, he left. Sorry, Stevie is no more admirable for staying. Maybe if she had left, too, she wouldn't be as bitter as she was later on.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:47 PM

DUDE, SHE WAS NOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH!!! You blast the man for leaving after he gave the band a masterpiece and you continue to praise Stevie for giving the band three pieces of shit and barely committing any time to the project.

Oh come on, no one is gorifying anyone's decision for leaving anything here. No one has said Lindsey is an angel for leaving before the tour started. Besides, you brought up the Stevie issue. The issue was why was Christine not blasted for leaving FM but Lindsey was?

The way I see it Stevie's commitment to FM in 1986-87 was begrudging at best. And her contributions to what could have been a perfect album are proof of it.

I am not balsting LB for TITN nor am I praising La Nicks for her contributions. I am not saying that. ALL I am saying is Stevie made the effort to be there despite her personal condition and her other business commitments. I get that these two things did not give her alot of time. But, my point is she did not have to go to FM. She did it out of loyalty to them. Why else would she be there? Again, at that time, she was one of the most popular women in rock and roll. Yet, when FM called, she juggled and juggled and made time for them. I think she deserves credit for that and do not get why you do not give it to her?

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:47 PM

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:49 PM

What aren't you getting?

Stevie was part of the problem for Lindsey. The drama was at its height and he didn't feel like he could go through months of months of the emotional rollercoaster of FM at that time in his life. So, he left. Sorry, Stevie is no more admirable for staying. Maybe if she had left, too, she wouldn't be as bitter as she was later on.

I do not think Stevie was bitter later at LB. I think she was bitter at Mick over SS. But, in any event, my point is they were all in turmoil and it was not all Stevie's fault, which I am getting is what you all are saying from all of this. I mean it takes two to Tango (no pun intended) :laugh:

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:49 PM

ALL I am saying is Stevie made the effort to be there despite her personal condition and her other business commitments.

Huh. It doesn't reflect that on the album. :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:51 PM

Dissention, you point about TOTOTM is not relevant. In 1986 when TITN was recorded Stevie was extememly popular. That is the facts FM was dealing with - not her popularity in 1989 :shrug:

Perhaps my memory is failing me here, but in 1986, as I recall, Stevie's popularity had already started its long decline. I recall that Talk to Me got some decent airply and I Can't Wait got less. Imperial Hotel then got even less.

So I'm not sure we can say she was this huuuuuge popular figure at that point. I believe she had already peaked. That was with Stand Back, which came shortly after Gypsy. Really, outside of Rumours, I see Stevie's apex of popularity as that 1981-to-1983 period. With Rock a Little, she started to decline. And I bet it was because her voice had changed in a major way, not to mention that the music had become too glossy.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:51 PM

I do not think Stevie was bitter later at LB. I think she was bitter at Mick over SS. But, in any event, my point is they were all in turmoil and it was not all Stevie's fault, which I am getting is what you all are saying from all of this. I mean it takes two to Tango (no pun intended) :laugh:

Whoa. She was a VERY bitter person about everything from '87-'94. We are talking about the same Stevie, right? And you must not have seen the conference they gave to announce Lindsey's departure. She was quite bitter, my friend.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:51 PM

Yeah, and the album was released a year later in '87, not '86. Where's the relevance? :laugh:

She was popular, but she wasn't at the height of her popularity, it had already peaked. The RAL sales were a disappointment, don't you remember? It was all downhill from there. OSOTM, that tour, a greatest hits package, SA, that tour...

And "LB's quitting because of the timing" is what you said in relation to Stevie's personal problems. I can quote you, ya know. :laugh:

Yes RAL sold only a million and had three top 40 singles and a successful tour :rolleyes: Come on, you know she was still very popular at this time :cool: Was it the beginning of the end. Yes. But, who knew that in 1986 :shrug: FM and the label certainly did not - otherwise why wait for her?

Again, if LB agreed to tour he should have in my book. But, the debate rages on . . .

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:52 PM

I think she deserves credit for that and do not get why you do not give it to her?

Because her contributions were shitty. Plain and simple. :nod: Her commitment was minimal and the quality of the work was the worst we had seen from her until then.

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:53 PM

Perhaps my memory is failing me here, but in 1986, as I recall, Stevie's popularity had already started its long decline. I recall that Talk to Me got some decent airply and I Can't Wait got less. Imperial Hotel then got even less.

So I'm not sure we can say she was this huuuuuge popular figure at that point. I believe she had already peaked. That was with Stand Back, which came shortly after Gypsy. Really, outside of Rumours, I see Stevie's apex of popularity as that 1981-to-1983 period. With Rock a Little, she started to decline. And I bet it was because her voice had changed in a major way, not to mention that the music had become too glossy.

Each solo album of hers sold less and less.

And I agree with everything else. I think her popularity declined because with each new project, the image she cultivated got more and more over-the-top to the point of absurdity. Then the music started to suffer. A deadly combination for Stevie. :laugh:

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:54 PM

Because her contributions were shitty. Plain and simple. :nod: Her commitment was minimal and the quality of the work was the worst we had seen from her until then.

But, she made the effort to be there. These are two sep. things. She was stretched too thin. LB was pissed and produced her crap into bigger crap. Call it want you want. But, she made the effort and I say kudos to her for it.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:55 PM

But, in any event, my point is they were all in turmoil and it was not all Stevie's fault, which I am getting is what you all are saying from all of this. :laugh:

No, no, no, my friend. No one is saying that. Some of us are arguing that Lindsey wasn't a horrible person for leaving before the tour. That is the crux of my argument. I insist that he gave FM a masterpiece for which he busted his rump. Meanwhile, Stevie did nearly nothing for the project and then complained about it.

Seriously, I don't see how you can't get that point. I know you do. You just hate to back down. :) I know somebody else like that. ;)

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:56 PM

Yes RAL sold only a million and had three top 40 singles and a successful tour :rolleyes: Come on, you know she was still very popular at this time :cool: Was it the beginning of the end. Yes. But, who knew that in 1986 :shrug: FM and the label certainly did not - otherwise why wait for her?

Again, if LB agreed to tour he should have in my book. But, the debate rages on . . .

They knew it was the end, don't gimme that BS. They knew when TWH sold poorly compared with BD. Then, they saw the writing on the wall when RAL didn't even break the top ten. Why wait for her? Because FM was a band.

And sold-out concerts don't equal extreme popularity, Jason.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 01:57 PM

No, no, no, my friend. No one is saying that. Some of us are arguing that Lindsey wasn't a horrible person for leaving before the tour. That is the crux of my argument. I insist that he gave FM a masterpiece for which he busted his rump. Meanwhile, Stevie did nearly nothing for the project and then complained about it.

Seriously, I don't see how you can't get that point. I know you do. You just hate to back down. :) I know somebody else like that. ;)

Alrighty then, if that is not what is being said, point taken and, of course, touche' I tstill, think, however, LB was wrong for leaving and on that I will never back down :cool: :angel:

dissention

05-05-2004, 01:57 PM

But, she made the effort to be there. These are two sep. things. She was stretched too thin. LB was pissed and produced her crap into bigger crap. Call it want you want. But, she made the effort and I say kudos to her for it.

Oh, now it's Lindsey's fault that her contributions were shitty?

You're losing the argument, pal.

If anything, her contributions showed a lack of effort, but you'll never accept that.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:58 PM

But, who knew that in 1986 :shrug: FM and the label certainly did not - otherwise why wait for her?

I did. ;) I'll never forget my disappointment after the first listen to Rock a Little.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 01:59 PM

But, she made the effort to be there. These are two sep. things. She was stretched too thin. LB was pissed and produced her crap into bigger crap. Call it want you want. But, she made the effort and I say kudos to her for it.

What!!?? :eek: Are you suggesting his production of her songs was crappy? Come on.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:00 PM

What!!?? :eek: Are you suggesting his production of her songs was crappy? Come on.

If anyone listened to the demos to some of those songs, they'd know that Linds worked a miracle on them.

And then listen to the other stuff she had offered up to the band. It's rather heartbreaking.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:02 PM

Oh, now it's Lindsey's fault that her contributions were shitty?

You're losing the argument, pal.

If anything, her contributions showed a lack of effort, but you'll never accept that.

I already admitted her contributions were not stellar, although I think Seven Wonders is next door to stellar :cool: My point is whenever anything is great it is all about LB. Yet, he produced WTTRS and WISYA. Shouldn't some of the blame be on him then? But, no one will ever concede that. But, it takes two to tango and Stevie was not up to par. No one is arguing against that. I certainly am not. All I am saying is Stevie made an effort to be there and it was not easy for her to do that. Yet, no one will admit that? Instead, it is Stevie is a lazy so and so, yadda yadda, blah blah blah

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:07 PM

I already admitted her contributions were not stellar, although I think Seven Wonders is next door to stellar :cool: My point is whenever anything is great it is all about LB. Yet, he produced WTTRS and WISYA. Shouldn't some of the blame be on him then? But, no one will ever concede that.

Jason, Jason, Jason. Here's the thing: On Tango you're always going to be in a position of weakness when arguing about the quality of the material. Lindsey's and Christine's material was far superior. I'll even concede the point Brian makes that Stevie adds a certain darkness to the album. Unfortunaly, her stuff just isn't good. The production on it, however, is marvelous and makes her material almost palatable.

As I said before, take out Welcome to the Room and When I See You Again, then throw in You and I Part I, and you have a perfect album.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:08 PM

I already admitted her contributions were not stellar, although I think Seven Wonders is next door to stellar :cool: My point is whenever anything is great it is all about LB. Yet, he produced WTTRS and WISYA. Shouldn't some of the blame be on him then? But, no one will ever concede that. But, it takes two to tango and Stevie was not up to par. No one is arguing against that. I certainly am not. All I am saying is Stevie made an effort to be there and it was not easy for her to do that. Yet, no one will admit that? Instead, it is Stevie is a lazy so and so, yadda yadda, blah blah blah

WISYA leaves me cold always. Seven Wonders is good, except some of the vocals stink and Stevie didn't write it. He did a stellar job on WTTR...S when you look at what he had to work with...nothing. :eek:

But, that's not the issue; the issue is her lack of effort and her resulting musical atrocities.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:10 PM

Jason, Jason, Jason. Here's the thing: On Tango you're always going to be in a position of weakness when arguing about the quality of the material. Lindsey's and Christine's material was far superior. I'll even concede the point Brian makes that Stevie adds a certain darkness to the album. Unfortunaly, her stuff just isn't good. The production on it, however, is marvelous and makes her material almost palatable.

As I said before, take out Welcome to the Room and When I See You Again, then throw in You and I Part I, and you have a perfect album.

Well, that is the thing I am trying to say. I am not saying LB and CM's material did not, if you will, trump Stevie's contributions of WTTRS and WISYA. I really like Seven Wonders and put it up there with the other songs on the record :cool: All I am saying is it would be nice for you and others to recognize that Stevie was cery busy at this point in her life and went out of her way to make this FM record happen. She did not have to do it. But, she did. Granted her contributions were minimal because of her schedule. But, she did not walk away. She made it happen. I do not get why people cannot see that. What more could she have done? Not go to rehab.? Not tour to support RAL?

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:11 PM

But, that's not the issue; the issue is her lack of effort and her resulting musical atrocities.

Musical atrocities!? Why hasn't someone brought her to the Sonic Crimes Court to stand trial yet?

Gailh

05-05-2004, 02:11 PM

:confused:

Um aren't we supposed to be talking about Christine?

Why don't we all go and listen to You Are before it's too late!

Gail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/wogan/

Click on listen again and wait for about 8 minutes

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 02:14 PM

I can't argue with that. I only wish Stevie fans would get that. After all, we were originally talking about Christine anyway.

I didn't see any of Stevie's fans starting this particular thread, bud. ;)
It was you, a Lindsey fan, inquiring why "our man" gets dissed for not touring and Christine doesn't.
You felt the need to defend him, and that's cool... but there's no reason to act surprised or somehow superior if other fans also find the need to defend their fave. :)

Besides... and absolutely no offense meant to Jason here... but no one else even mentioned Stevie in this thread, prior to Jason, who posted in regards to Les' comments that not one else in the band sacrificed anything in order to participate on 'Tango.'
And I only added a few thoughts once he and Les were engaged in their conversation.
It's not at all like hordes of Stevie's "legion of fans" have flocked over here to create a hue and cry over Stevie being treated unfairly. :)

As far as my other point, I thought I had already explained it well enough.
It has often been alleged that Stevie's fans only love her late-80s/early-90s work out of loyalty or self-delusion.
And I was just curious as to how... if that's so... they can also feel the same material that they love and are deluding themselves into thinking is good, can somehow be uninteresting, mediocre, and a reason to blast Lindsey. :)

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:15 PM

All I am saying is it would be nice for you and others to recognize that Stevie was cery busy at this point in her life and went out of her way to make this FM record happen.

I know she was busy. I just wish she had gone out of her way to make good music. If she couldn't put her full effort and heart into it, she should've excused herself. And we would've gotten a better record.

Also, she didn't go out of her way to make this FM record happen: Lindsey Buckingham did. :xoxo:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:15 PM

She did not have to do it. But, she did. Granted her contributions were minimal because of her schedule. But, she did not walk away. She made it happen. I do not get why people cannot see that.

Well, Jason, I understand your point. But here's how I see it: Rather than give the band crap, she could have stayed out and the album would have been better for it. Her stuff drags it down. Now, I know that comment is going to incite the passions of Stevie fans again, but since you asked... :shrug: :)

And before you make the popularity argument again, I will say this: I don't care. I'd rather have a record of quality stuff that sells 4,000 copies than one with some mediocre stuff that sells 4 million. Be that as it may, thanks to Lindsey's arrangements and production, Tango is nevertheless a stellar work.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:18 PM

Musical atrocities!? Why hasn't someone brought her to the Sonic Crimes Court to stand trial yet?

For the same reason that the High Court of Crimes Against Fashion dismissed her case: temporary insanity.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:19 PM

I know she was busy. I just wish she had gone out of her way to make good music. If she couldn't put her full effort and heart into it, she should've excused herself. And we would've gotten a better record.

Also, she didn't go out of her way to make this FM record happen: Lindsey Buckingham did. :xoxo:

Well, no actually, Stevie did :laugh: If you just ended a world tour, went immeditely into rehab, and came out of rehab., would you want to run back into the studio with tour ex lover and bandmates still using coke? I would not. So, clearly she made the whatever effort she could.

I do agree that I wish her material was better, with the exception of Seven Wonders, which I think is great.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:21 PM

I didn't see any of Stevie's fans starting this particular thread, bud. ;)

Aaah... I started the thread. But I didn't steer it in the Lindsey v. Stevie direction. :angel:

You felt the need to defend him, and that's cool... but there's no reason to act surprised or somehow superior if other fans also find the need to defend their fave. :)

That's cool, Johnny. My goal was more to understand why Christine's departure was accepted with such calm as opposed to Lindsey's. (OK, and maybe start a little bit of controversy on this board. Consider the source, after all. ;))

It's not at all like hordes of Stevie's "legion of fans" have flocked over here to create a hue and cry over Stevie being treated unfairly. :)

He he. Johnny catches me on an exaggeration.

As far as my other point, I thought I had already explained it well enough.
It has often been alleged that Stevie's fans only love her late-80s/early-90s work out of loyalty or self-delusion.
And I was just curious as to how... if that's so... they can also feel the same material that they love and are deluding themselves into thinking is good, can somehow be uninteresting, mediocre, and a reason to blast Lindsey. :)

I'm still not sure I understand. I presume it is because the premise strikes me as flawed. No one is saying Stevie fans are blasting Lindsey for her subpar work. Eh, I guess I don't get your point. No biggie.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:22 PM

Well, Jason, I understand your point. But here's how I see it: Rather than give the band crap, she could have stayed out and the album would have been better for it. Her stuff drags it down. Now, I know that comment is going to incite the passions of Stevie fans again, but since you asked... :shrug: :)

And before you make the popularity argument again, I will say this: I don't care. I'd rather have a record of quality stuff that sells 4,000 copies than one with some mediocre stuff that sells 4 million. Be that as it may, thanks to Lindsey's arrangements and production, Tango is nevertheless a stellar work.

They would never have allowed FM to release a record without Stevie on it. That argument is a red herring :laugh:

I think Seven Wonders is great and it did okay, not great, as a single. So, she made some commercial contribution other than just being Stevie :shrug: Also, I think LL is the best commercial track on the record and it is because all three voices are very apparent and CM wrote a great song to begin with.

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 02:23 PM

Her single did the terrible compared to the others and her next album had one single (that wasn't int he top ten) and only sold gold. Are we forgetting that each of her albums got less and less successful? Her schtick was growing old with the public, Le Stew.

Yeah, sort of how they got burned out on Stevie's over-the-top ridiculousness in the eighties. I suspect that Family Man failed because it was the last single and was released quite awhile after the album was released. It still doesn't lend any credence to the belief that Stevie was still as popular as ever.

Trust me, diss... I'm not at all denying that Stevie's popularity waned.
As everyone is well aware, I follow all of the statistics, album sales, etc., and it's very easy to see that Stevie was not selling as well as she had in the early 80s, and that her singles weren't dominating the airwaves the way they used to.

The only thing I was trying to comment on, is the claim that the drop in popularity and sales is somehow a dependable indicator that her material was of a lesser quality.
We all know for a fact that you can release the best album of your life... Lindsey's 'Out Of The Cradle' is an excellent example of that... and still not be very popular or sell a lot of copies.

Now, in saying this (because one always has to qualify these types of statements around here, otherwise your intention is misconstrued), I'm NOT saying that albums like 'The Other Side Of The Mirror' and 'Street Angel' were the best albums of Stevie's career.
I'm merely stating that low sales are not an indicator of low quality, and shouldn't be used to suggest so.

I was also trying to remind folks that EVERY artist goes through a decline in popularity. You fall out of fashion, or people get burned out on you, and that's that.
The lucky and most talented of the bunch, come back from that eventually.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:24 PM

They would never have allowed FM to release a record without Stevie on it. That argument is a red herring :laugh:

Are you sure? Time didn't have Stevie.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:24 PM

Well, no actually, Stevie did

Well, no actually, Lindsey did.

He agreed to turn his solo album into a Mac album at the insistence of a certain Mick Fleetwood. The album didn't need Stevie or any of the others; it would've gotten released some time in the eighties. But, when it was agreed that it was going to be a Mac album, that entailed bringing back all the members. Fleetwood Mac is a band, not one of Stevie's back-up bands, doll.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:24 PM

Are you sure? Time didn't have Stevie.

She was an also ran by then and had officially left the band. We are talking about 1986 here.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:26 PM

Well, no actually, Lindsey did.

He agreed to turn his solo album into a Mac album at the insistence of a certain Mick Fleetwood. The album didn't need Stevie or any of the others; it would've gotten released some time in the eighties. But, when it was agreed that it was going to be a Mac album, that entailed bringing back all the members. Fleetwood Mac is a band, not one of Stevie's back-up bands, doll.

I agree and did not say they were. My point was and is, they both made sacrifices. Yet, LB's are lauded and SN's are for the most part ignored.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:26 PM

She was an also ran by then and had officially left the band. We are talking about 1986 here.

You don't think Mick would have insisted on carrying on if Stevie had dropped out? You bet he would have.

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:27 PM

Yet, LB's are lauded and SN's are for the most part ignored.

Because it comes down to the quality of the work, Jason. Both Dissention and I are saying that she might have been better off excusing herself from the project. I believe that the album would have been better for it.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:28 PM

You don't think Mick would have insisted on carrying on if Stevie had dropped out? You bet he would have.

Oh he would have without a doubt. Would Warners have advanced as much $$$$. I do not think so. But, we will never know will we :cool:

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:28 PM

The only thing I was trying to comment on, is the claim that the drop in popularity and sales is somehow a dependable indicator that her material was of a lesser quality.
We all know for a fact that you can release the best album of your life... Lindsey's 'Out Of The Cradle' is an excellent example of that... and still not be very popular or sell a lot of copies.

Now, in saying this (because one always has to qualify these types of statements around here, otherwise your intention is misconstrued), I'm NOT saying that albums like 'The Other Side Of The Mirror' and 'Street Angel' were the best albums of Stevie's career.
I'm merely stating that low sales are not an indicator of low quality, and shouldn't be used to suggest so.

I was also trying to remind folks that EVERY artist goes through a decline in popularity. You fall out of fashion, or people get burned out on you, and that's that.
The lucky and most talented of the bunch, come back from that eventually.

But, in Stevie's case, the music was of lesser quality and that reflected in sales. Trust me, I'm a HUGE Stevie fan. I don't care for RAL and SA at all or her TITN stuff, the rest I'm okay with. But, if you look at the timeline, the music got worse with each album and so did the sales. I think sales declined because her image was cartoonish AND because the music was of lesser quality. The sales didn't decline because it was good music.

And, thankfully, Stevie got her shit together and made great music again. ;)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:29 PM

Because it comes down to the quality of the work, Jason. Both Dissention and I are saying that she might have been better off excusing herself from the project. I believe that the album would have been better for it.

So, you agree she made the effort, you just wish she had not because of the material she gave. I think we have a detente :cool:

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:32 PM

So, you agree she made the effort, you just wish she had not because of the material she gave. I think we have a detente :cool:

Anyone can sit there, sing a song, and say they put in the effort. She didn't.

She used a song she hadn't written, one that made absolutely no sense, and another that I consider to be utter garbage. She was there for days, whereas everyone else was there for months. If that's effort, then I stand by my assessment that Lindsey is vastly underrated.

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 02:33 PM

I'm still not sure I understand. I presume it is because the premise strikes me as flawed. No one is saying Stevie fans are blasting Lindsey for her subpar work. Eh, I guess I don't get your point. No biggie.

You said....
Yes, I suspect the vitriol directed at Lindsey to this day for leaving after the Tango sessions is a manifestation of what the Stevie fans know deep inside: Fleetwood Mac without Lindsey was rather uninteresting.

Which lead me to my question as to how fans who are chided for "deluding themselves" into thinking Stevie's material in that era was good, could somehow also think that very same material was "uninteresting" and that Lindsey is at fault. :)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:36 PM

Anyone can sit there, sing a song, and say they put in the effort. She didn't.

She used a song she hadn't written, one that made absolutely no sense, and another that I consider to be utter garbage. She was there for days, whereas everyone else was there for months. If that's effort, then I stand by my assessment that Lindsey is vastly underrated.

I am talking about the effort to make time for FM. Clearly she did that. They sent her things on the road, she sent them things. So, you may not like the result, but she made as much of an effort as she had in her. I truly believe that. Again, other than bowing out, which Warner's would never allow, what more could she have done. This is why I have such a problem with people excusing LB for his survival move, but then they cut La Nicks no slack. I mean I think she did the best she could and, sadly, the results (2/3) were lacking.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:40 PM

I am talking about the effort to make time for FM. Clearly she did that. They sent her things on the road, she sent them things. So, you may not like the result, but she made as much of an effort as she had in her. I truly believe that. Again, other than bowing out, which Warner's would never allow, what more could she have done. This is why I have such a problem with people excusing LB for his survival move, but then they cut La Nicks no slack. I mean I think she did the best she could and, sadly, the results (2/3) were lacking.

She's part of the band, it's expected that she make time. I won't sing praises because she did her job.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:46 PM

She's part of the band, it's expected that she make time. I won't sing praises because she did her job.

Well, she did make the time. That is my point. Yet, you state she should have bowed out even if she was part of the band. Again, clearly 0she did what she could. I think they should have waited for her to finish rehab and then start the record. That way LB could have released his record. But, FM made this group decision. So, who am I to argue with their logic :shrug:

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:48 PM

Well, she did make the time. That is my point. Yet, you state she should have bowed out even if she was part of the band. Again, clearly 0she did what she could. I think they should have waited for her to finish rehab and then start the record. That way LB could have released his record. But, FM made this group decision. So, who am I to argue with their logic :shrug:

I said that if she couldn't make her contributions a priority and make sure that they were great, she should've bowed out. But she didn't and we got the resulting musical atrocities.

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 02:49 PM

But, in Stevie's case, the music was of lesser quality and that reflected in sales. Trust me, I'm a HUGE Stevie fan. I don't care for RAL and SA at all or her TITN stuff, the rest I'm okay with. But, if you look at the timeline, the music got worse with each album and so did the sales. I think sales declined because her image was cartoonish AND because the music was of lesser quality. The sales didn't decline because it was good music.

Anyone can sit there, sing a song, and say they put in the effort. She didn't.

She used a song she hadn't written, one that made absolutely no sense, and another that I consider to be utter garbage. She was there for days, whereas everyone else was there for months. If that's effort, then I stand by my assessment that Lindsey is vastly underrated.

I realize you don't care for the music on those albums, and neither do CarneVaca and some others... but I also know quite a number of people who DO enjoy those albums. So again, we're down to a matter of opinion.
Ask David to name his favorite Stevie Nicks album. The last time I looked, it was 'Street Angel'... and I don't think anyone would accuse David of being a deluded Stevie fan. ;) :)

We're also not taking into account the fact that Stevie probably felt very strongly about the two self-penned songs she contributed to 'Tango.'
The amount of time she spent in the studio might have been half-assed, but I bet those songs had a huge amount of personal meaning to her.

Another thing we're not taking into account is the fact that Fleetwood Mac chose those particular songs, out of several others Stevie offered at the time.
They could have very easily chosen the other songs, or pushed to record older songs Stevie had offered for previous Mac albums. "Smile At You" or "If You Were My Love," being two great examples.

And finally... I'm noticing that much is being made of Stevie "whining" and "complaining" to the band that she wasn't on 'Tango' enough.
An episode that, to the best of my knowledge, has ONLY ever been recounted in Mick's book... the same book which we were recently decrying for not being entirely factual, and for being, at times, rather embellished. ;)

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:51 PM

So, you agree she made the effort, you just wish she had not because of the material she gave. I think we have a detente :cool:

Hmmm.... I don't think I'm agreeing to that. But whatever, dude. Let's just have some beer.

dissention

05-05-2004, 02:53 PM

Hmmm.... I don't think I'm agreeing to that. But whatever, dude. Let's just have some beer.

Put a few valiums in Jason's. ;)

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 02:53 PM

Hmmm.... I don't think I'm agreeing to that. But whatever, dude. Let's just have some beer.
Amen to that :woohoo: :woohoo:

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 02:53 PM

You said....

Which lead me to my question as to how fans who are chided for "deluding themselves" into thinking Stevie's material in that era was good, could somehow also think that very same material was "uninteresting" and that Lindsey is at fault. :)

Hmm... Johnny, a little bit of circuitous (not to say circular) logic there? :laugh:

One hour and seven minutes to beer time.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 03:04 PM

She's part of the band, it's expected that she make time. I won't sing praises because she did her job.

but you'll sing LB's for doing his job :shrug:

dissention

05-05-2004, 03:20 PM

but you'll sing LB's for doing his job :shrug:

No, because it wasn't his job to turn it into a band project. ;)

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 03:31 PM

Hmm... Johnny, a little bit of circuitous (not to say circular) logic there? :laugh:

One hour and seven minutes to beer time.

Yeah, it was definitely circuitous... because I was trying to follow your thought process! :laugh: ;)

Beer, eh? Can I have a Pepsi instead? Or maybe a Zima?
My brother claims "Zima iz for zizzies"... like I'm worried! :laugh:

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 03:38 PM

How about we make a pact to all look at it this way:

1. It was a terrific thing Lindsey did, to put his solo album aside and devote his time and energy to Fleetwood Mac.
His decision to leave before a tour was a personal one that he needed to make for his own health and sanity, and that should be respected.

2. It was an admirable thing Stevie did, to come back to Fleetwood Mac at a time when her personal life was in a tremendous upheaval, and her health was on the line.
She could have been there more, or contributed to the album in a stronger fashion, but she deserves respect for her loyalty to the band.

3. Christine should also be respected for her loyalty to the band over the years, and the many, many tours she particpated in, despite the fact that she could have easily turned her back on Fleetwood Mac. She made a decision to no longer live her life on the road and in strange hotel rooms, and... just like Lindsey and Stevie... she deserves the right to make decisions based on her own health and happiness, and not whether she'll be letting the fans down.

strandinthewind

05-05-2004, 03:43 PM

jbrownsjr

05-05-2004, 03:43 PM

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 03:46 PM

Or maybe a Zima?

ZIMA!!!??? They still make that stuff?

CarneVaca

05-05-2004, 03:50 PM

Amen! Johnny is an :angel: :angel: :angel:
:cool:

I nominate Johnny Stew to be sent to the Middle East to mediate the Israeli/Palestine conflict.

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 03:52 PM

Why does Lindsey get to be point #1, why not Stevie?? I hate you all! :laugh:

:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

Someone always has to be a brat! :p ;)

Johnny Stew

05-05-2004, 03:54 PM

I nominate Johnny Stew to be sent to the Middle East to mediate the Israeli/Palestine conflict.

We all know you're just hoping I'll get caught in the crossfire! :laugh: ;) :p :lol:

chiliD

05-05-2004, 05:49 PM

ZIMA!!!??? They still make that stuff?

Now they have about 3 or 4 different flavors...I think. I stopped drinking the stuff in about 1994 or so. For no apparent reason, either. :thumbsup:

The Tower

05-05-2004, 05:49 PM

I'm not going to give the woman kudos for coming back for 10 days with a song she didn't write, another that was simply a jumble of shit, and another that sounded like it was recorded by a chipmunk with a throat cold

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Tower

05-05-2004, 05:58 PM

If you ask me, all the remixes are pretty excruciating. But as I mentioned before, hearing Family Man on the radio was a bit of a shock for me. Tango is undeniably Lindsey's and Christine's masterpiece. Despite its 80s sheen, it is still a wonderful piece of work.

BLEEEEEECHH!! I think Tango is their worst album overall. "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango in the Night" are good, but the rest is stanky 80's crapola.

chiliD

05-05-2004, 06:29 PM

BLEEEEEECHH!! I think Tango is their worst album overall. "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango in the Night" are good, but the rest is stanky 80's crapola.

It wasn't "stanky '80's crapola" when it was released...it was "cutting edge, current" stuff. :rolleyes:

Obviously, you didn't first hear it when it came out? :shrug: From a "hindsight" point of view, yeah, it's "80's", but when "Big Love" first hit the airwaves, it was "da bomb"!! :thumbsup:

The Tower

05-05-2004, 06:35 PM

If anyone listened to the demos to some of those songs, they'd know that Linds worked a miracle on them.

And then listen to the other stuff she had offered up to the band. It's rather heartbreaking.

Absolutely! "What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done For You" is SUCH an unbelievable piece of crap! "Juliet" on the other hand definitely should have been on TITN- totally.

The Tower

05-05-2004, 07:10 PM

It wasn't "stanky '80's crapola" when it was released...it was "cutting edge, current" stuff. :rolleyes:

Obviously, you didn't first hear it when it came out? :shrug: From a "hindsight" point of view, yeah, it's "80's", but when "Big Love" first hit the airwaves, it was "da bomb"!! :thumbsup:

Um. Yeah, I did. I bought it on vinyl the day it was released. I was pretty disappointed with Lindsey's stuff, just like I was with Mirage. Neither album lived up to his Tusk stuff. Like I said, "Isn't It Midnight" and the title track rocked then and they still rock today. I really didn't like any of Stevie's stuff when I first heard it- which sucked, because I am primarily a Stevie fan. I thought Christine's stuff was too poppy and I thought Lindsey's songs were too simplistic, both structurally and lyrically. The production was crisp and clean, but the overall sheen was more 1985 than 1987. For me, the "1987 sound" was more akin to REM's Document and others like it. TITN was closer to something like Quarterflash.

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 09:09 PM

But, she made the effort to be there. These are two sep. things. She was stretched too thin. LB was pissed and produced her crap into bigger crap. Call it want you want. But, she made the effort and I say kudos to her for it.

Sweetie, Lindsey can only do so much! When a song sucks as hard as WISYA or WTTR...S, then you're going to have to be a miracle worker to make it palatable.

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 09:11 PM

As I said before, take out Welcome to the Room and When I See You Again, then throw in You and I Part I, and you have a perfect album.

Trade out "Family Man" for "Joan of Arc" or "Juliet."

dissention

05-05-2004, 09:26 PM

Trade out "Family Man" for "Joan of Arc" or "Juliet."

The Juliet outtake is PAINFUL to listen to, OMG! I thought I'd never recover! :laugh:

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 09:30 PM

The Juliet outtake is PAINFUL to listen to, OMG! I thought I'd never recover! :laugh:

Well, it's very rough, remember. But Juliet sounded much better to me as an uptempo song than as the slow song she released it as.

sodascouts

05-05-2004, 09:31 PM

But to me at least, Tango is the one that hasn't held up as well as the others. I often think it sounds kinda dated.

Have to agree. I do like it better than Mirage, though.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 08:21 AM

We all know you're just hoping I'll get caught in the crossfire! :laugh: ;) :p :lol:

I wondered if you were going to say that... :)

But no.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 08:23 AM

BLEEEEEECHH!! I think Tango is their worst album overall. "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango in the Night" are good, but the rest is stanky 80's crapola.

In the context of the times, it stood out. There was a lot of crap being released in the mid 80s.

Looking back, I don't particularly care for the glossy production, but I do recall how exciting it was to my ear at the time. Same for Lindsey's Go Insane.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 08:25 AM

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 08:31 AM

but the overall sheen was more 1985 than 1987. For me, the "1987 sound" was more akin to REM's Document and others like it. TITN was closer to something like Quarterflash.

Granted, in 1987 I was too busy trying to earn a degree and not paying attention to music as much, but I don't really see much difference in popular sound between those two years. Right up to the early 1990s, when things like Four Non Blonde's What's Up and Sheryl Crow's Leaving Las Vegas hit the airwaves, gloss and overproduction remained king. And, really, REM's Document was hardly a standard bearer for the sound of the time.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 08:32 AM

Trade out "Family Man" for "Joan of Arc" or "Juliet."

OK. Let's make two versions of it.

To me, despite the idiotic lyrics, Family Man is still a hell of a fun song.

David

05-06-2004, 12:41 PM

BLEEEEEECHH!! I think Tango is their worst album overall. "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango in the Night" are good, but the rest is stanky 80's crapola.
It's their "tinkly" album!

David

05-06-2004, 12:50 PM

It was a terrific thing Lindsey did, to put his solo album aside and devote his time and energy to Fleetwood Mac.It was a wise thing Lindsey did, because Mick is a hell of a lot better than a Yamaha RX5 drum machine!

It was an admirable thing Stevie did, to come back to Fleetwood Mac at a time when her personal life was in a tremendous upheaval, and her health was on the line.I don't even think she was that sick. She sounds great on "Tango" to me! "Welcome to the Room, Sara" is a boring tune without a decent hook, but that's not the fault of illness. "When I See You Again" is a delicate ballad sung by an angel. Two angels, in fact!

Christine should also be respected for her loyalty to the band over the years, and the many, many tours she particpated in, despite the fact that she could have easily turned her back on Fleetwood Mac.Christine's just a big shmuck.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 01:29 PM

Really? Wasn't grunge happening right around that time? No gloss there.
I remember seeing 4 Non Blondes support Pearl Jam and Neil Young in about 93. They were crap (4 Non Blondes that is).

Grunge was happening in 1987!? Best check your calendar. You said, and I quote, "the '1987 sound' was more akin to REM's Document and others like it. TITN was closer to something like Quarterflash."

What's grunge got to do with it? I maintain that in 1987, Tango sounded fresh and exciting. REM's Document was not the standard bearer for the sound of the time.

Johnny Stew

05-06-2004, 01:54 PM

'Tango' definitely has an '80s sound... how can it not? But I don't think it's dated in a negative way. It's a document of a certain period in music, and it reflects that... but not in a crass, over-the-top way. It shimmers and sparkles, and employs only the best aspects of "that '80s sound."
At least in my opinion.

Personally, it's still one of my favorite Mac albums, and I love listening to it thru headphones. :)

Johnny Stew

05-06-2004, 01:59 PM

Pisces Queen

05-06-2004, 02:44 PM

Grunge wasn't happening in 1987 (that didn't come along until about 1991), but heavy metal was at the peak of its popularity.
Bon Jovi, Cinderella, Poison and the like, were all dominating the airwaves then. Not to mention capturing the fancy of millions of teenaged boys and girls... pretty much all of whom wouldn't have been caught dead listening to Fleetwood Mac.

And those teenagers who didn't listen to heavy metal, tended to prefer alt-rock bands like R.E.M. and 10,000 Maniacs.

Boy ~ talk about bringing back memories. I was just reading an email titled "You might be A Metal Head if:" my friends and I were so into all the 80's metal bands but we had much much love for the Tango cassette. Little Lies and Big Love were always on the radio for quite sometime then we had Rooms on Fire which got alot of airplay.

CarneVaca

05-06-2004, 03:37 PM

I didn't actually say that about REM, that was The Tower methinks. I don't even remember when Document came out, I was 12 and didn't even know what alternative music was.

Ooops. My apologies.

Jessica

05-25-2004, 12:06 AM

They show many clips from the Seven Wonders video of Lindsey playing guitar and Stevie twirling with her boobs falling out, then they intersperse old, old, old B&W footage of fat women eating dinner with their family and scenes from what could've been the sequel to Grapes of Wrath. :laugh: Families all lined up outside their beaten-down houses, kids running through the dirt, etc.

It's all pretty horrendous. :nod:

Sorry I'm in a little late on this one--getting caught up on what's going on after not visiting in ages. However, I just had to say I laughed harder at this description than I've laughed at anything in a looooong time. Priceless. LMAO!!

Jessica

estranged4life

05-25-2004, 01:47 AM

Grunge wasn't happening in 1987 (that didn't come along until about 1991), but heavy metal was at the peak of its popularity.
Bon Jovi, Cinderella, Poison and the like, were all dominating the airwaves then. Not to mention capturing the fancy of millions of teenaged boys and girls... pretty much all of whom wouldn't have been caught dead listening to Fleetwood Mac.

And those teenagers who didn't listen to heavy metal, tended to prefer alt-rock bands like R.E.M. and 10,000 Maniacs.

I must've been in a very small minority because back in 1987 (Ah, The good ol' high school years...) I was listening to the above mentioned bands (Except Bon Jovi who I never cared for, Whom I have a rather negative name for which I wont print here...hehehehe) but more thrash metal than anything (Anthrax, Slayer, Testament, Megadeth & of course Metallica before Lars & Co. started to see the almighty $$$ in the mid-90's and thus sucked!) and yet I still listened to Fleetwood Mac because they were considered un-cool to like.