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dissention
02-04-2004, 01:37 PM
Mass. High Court Rules for Gay Marriage
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By JENNIFER PETER, Associated Press Writer

BOSTON - The Massachusetts high court ruled Wednesday that only full, equal marriage rights for gay couples — rather than civil unions — are constitutional, clearing the way for the nation's first same-sex marriages in the state as early as May.


"The history of our nation has demonstrated that separate is seldom, if ever, equal," the four justices who ruled in favor of gay marriage wrote in the advisory opinion requested by the state Senate.


After seven gay couples sued in 2001, the Supreme Judicial Court ruled in November that gay couples have a constitutional right to marry, and gave the Legislature six months to change state laws to make it happen.


But the vague wording of the ruling left lawmakers — and advocates on both sides — uncertain if Vermont-style civil unions would satisfy the court's decision.


The Massachusetts court said any civil unions bill that falls short of marriage would establish an "unconstitutional, inferior, and discriminatory status for same-sex couples."


The state Senate asked for more guidance from the court, whose advisory opinion was made public Wednesday morning when it was read into the Senate record.


The much-anticipated opinion sets the stage for next Wednesday's constitutional convention, where the Legislature will consider an amendment that would legally define marriage as a union between one man and one woman. Without the opinion, Senate President Robert Travaglini had said the vote would be delayed.


The soonest a constitutional amendment could end up on the ballot would be 2006, meaning that until then the high court's decision will be Massachusetts law no matter what is decided at the constitutional convention.


"We've heard from the court, but not from the people," Gov. Mitt Romney said in a statement. "The people of Massachusetts should not be excluded from a decision as fundamental to our society as the definition of marriage."


Travaglini said he wanted time to talk with fellow senators before deciding what to do next.


"I want to have everyone stay in an objective and calm state as we plan and define what's the appropriate way to proceed," Travaglini said.


Conservative leaders said they were not surprised by the advisory opinion, and vowed to redouble their efforts to pass the constitutional amendment.


Mary Bonauto, an attorney who represented the seven couples who filed the lawsuit, said she anticipated a fierce battle, saying that "no matter what you think about the court's decision, it's always wrong to change the constitution to write discrimination into it."


When it was issued in November, the 4-3 ruling set off a firestorm of protest across the country among politicians, religious leaders and others opposed to providing landmark rights for gay couples to marry.


President Bush (news - web sites) immediately denounced the decision and vowed to pursue legislation to protect the traditional definition of marriage. Church leaders in the heavily Roman Catholic state also pressed their parishioners to oppose efforts to allow gays to marry.


And legislators were prepared to vote on a proposed amendment to the state constitution that would seek to make the court's ruling moot by defining as marriage as a union between one man and one woman — thus expressly making same-sex marriages illegal in Massachusetts.


What the case represented, both sides agree, was a significant new milestone in a year that has seen broad new recognitions of gay rights in America, Canada and abroad, including a June U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) decision striking a Texas ban on gay sex.


Legal experts, however, said that the long-awaited decision, while clearly stating that it is unconstitutional to bar gay couples from marriage, gave ambiguous instructions to the state Legislature.

Lawmakers remained uncertain if civil unions went far enough to live up to the court's ruling — or if actual marriages were required.

When a similar decision was issued in Vermont in 1999, the court told the Legislature that it could allow gay couples to marry or create a parallel institution that conveys all the state rights and benefits of marriage. The Legislature chose the second route, leading to the approval of civil unions in that state.

The Massachusetts decision made no mention of an alternative solution, but instead pointed to a recent decision in Ontario, Canada, that changed the common law definition of marriage to include same-sex couples and led to the issuance of marriage licenses there.

The state "has failed to identify any constitutionally adequate reason for denying civil marriage to same-sex couples," the court wrote. "Barred access to the protections, benefits and obligations of civil marriage, a person who enters into an intimate, exclusive union with another of the same sex is arbitrarily deprived of membership in one of our community's most rewarding and cherished institutions."

The Massachusetts case began in 2001, when the seven gay couples went to their city and town halls to obtain marriage licenses. All were denied, leading them to sue the state Department of Public Health (news - web sites), which administers the state's marriage laws.

A Suffolk Superior Court judge threw out the case in 2002, ruling that nothing in state law gives gay couples the right to marry. The couples immediately appealed to the Supreme Judicial Court, which heard arguments in March.

The plaintiffs argued that barring them from marrying a partner of the same sex denied them access to an intrinsic human experience and violated basic constitutional rights.

Over the past decade, Massachusetts' high court has expanded the legal parameters of family, ruling that same-sex couples can adopt children and devising child visitation right for a former partner of a lesbian.

Massachusetts has one of the highest concentrations of gay households in the country with at 1.3 percent of the total number of coupled households, according to the 2000 census. In California, 1.4 percent of the coupled households are occupied by same-sex partners. Vermont and New York also registered at 1.3 percent, while in Washington, D.C., the rate is 5.1 percent


GOOD NEWS INDEED! :D :wavey:

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 01:44 PM
The plot thickens. The next two months will certainly be interesting!!!!!

dissention
02-04-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by strandinthewind
The plot thickens. The next two months will certainly be interesting!!!!!

It will become law, mark my words. It's MA, after all. :laugh:

CarneVaca
02-04-2004, 01:53 PM
I'll raise my glass to that. Beautiful decision.

Let there be love... and marriage.

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by dissention
It will become law, mark my words. It's MA, after all. :laugh:

Well, the MA Sup. Ct. (MASCT) has left the legislature no choice. The Legislature will have to either:

1. Form a "civil unions" law that mirrors in every way the rights obtained in that state via a marriage, or

2. Recognize gay marriage as the same as heterosexual marriage.

Moreover, the way I read it the MA Legislature can do nothing about unless they amend the MA Const., which they cannot do until 2006. So, what about all of the day couples that married between say May 2004 and May 2006? Suddenly, their marriage is no good anymore. Talk about your ex post facto laws there.

In the end, I think they will chose option 1 because it is the course of least resistance (which is saying alot here :laugh: ).
I think that is a shame because like the Justice said "The history of our nation has demonstrated that separate is seldom, if ever, equal."

dissention
02-04-2004, 02:00 PM
The thing that I don't understand is how the conservatives can say that the majority of MA residents oppose gay marriages. Every single person that I've spoken to about gay marriage in the past six months has said that they think it should be made legal. It makes you wonder if Repugs even realize that it's MA, the most liberal state!

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by dissention
The thing that I don't understand is how the conservatives can say that the majority of MA residents oppose gay marriages. Every single person that I've spoken to about gay marriage in the past six months has said that they think it should be made legal. It makes you wonder if Repugs even realize that it's MA, the most liberal state!

What do the credible polls in MA say? A lot of the informal CNN polls are split fairly statistically even.

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Here is a CNN article with a poll.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/18/samesex.marriage.ruling/

dissention
02-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by strandinthewind
What do the credible polls in MA say? A lot of the informal CNN polls are split fairly statistically even.

The last poll I saw said 45% opposed it and 54% approved, well beyond the margin of error. But I think that it is split evenly.

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 02:15 PM
Interestingly, if the legislature can do nothing to trump the MASCT decision until Nov. 2006, Barney Frank's quote in that CNN article that could ring true. He said ""My prediction is that when we in Massachusetts vote on this -- and we almost certainly will in 2006 -- the reality will have overtaken the fears."

So many people do not realize that if it was not for the courts and judicial activism, African-Americans would not have had the right to vote, women would not have the right to vote, etc. People need to realize the purpose of a constitution is to protect a minority group from the wrath of the majority and the far religious right.

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 02:21 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110445,00.html

the decision - well worth reading!

dissention
02-04-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by strandinthewind
Here is a CNN article with a poll.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/18/samesex.marriage.ruling/

As if we need anymore proof that Gov. Mitt "Mutt" Romney is a prick. I can't wait to vote that bastard out.

GypsySorcerer
02-04-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by dissention
As if we need anymore proof that Gov. Mitt "Mutt" Romney is a prick. I can't wait to vote that bastard out.


Ole Mitt's kind of cute in my opinion. :D

dissention
02-04-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by GypsySorcerer
Ole Mitt's kind of cute in my opinion. :D

:eek:

He looks like polished trailer trash. And runs the state like Bush on speed.

GypsySorcerer
02-04-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by dissention
:eek:

He looks like polished trailer trash. And runs the state like Bush on speed.


Are you sure you don't mean Bush on coke? ;)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

sparky
02-04-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by dissention

GOOD NEWS INDEED! :D :wavey:


I think this is going to be a case of winning a battle, losing the war. While I agree with this ruling on interpretation of law, and on a personal level, I think the outcome is going to be decided in Washington.

MA can go right ahead and amend their own constitution, or whatever else they want to do. However, decisions like this are only going to light a fire under Bush and his own little Taliban to amend the US Constitution. And I think they can succeed. If they couldn't succeed today, they will be able to after November. One of the main reasons he wants another term is to load the Supreme Court with religious extremists, and if he wins, that is going to happen. They only need one more in there, and there will be a court that will push things like this through as fast as they can.

Sorry if I sound cynical. I think many people in the country couldn't care less about the issue. But there is a strident group of people who think this is the beginning of the end of civilization - ridiculous as that sounds. I think they will stop at nothing to prevent it.

ShamHy89
02-04-2004, 06:37 PM
As if we need anymore proof that Gov. Mitt "Mutt" Romney is a prick. I can't wait to vote that bastard out.

Amen! :nod: (Dissention, if you don't mind, who did you like in the last election? O'Brian? Birmingham?)


The thing that I don't understand is how the conservatives can say that the majority of MA residents oppose gay marriages. Every single person that I've spoken to about gay marriage in the past six months has said that they think it should be made legal. It makes you wonder if Repugs even realize that it's MA, the most liberal state!

Same here. We had a huge discussion on it at school and out of 25 or so high school-aged students in my class, only 2 were against gay marriages!

Shamus:)

dissention
02-04-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by ShamHy89
Amen! :nod: (Dissention, if you don't mind, who did you like in the last election? O'Brian? Birmingham?)

O'Brien, but only because she was the lesser of two evils. :D

strandinthewind
02-04-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by sparky
I think this is going to be a case of winning a battle, losing the war. While I agree with this ruling on interpretation of law, and on a personal level, I think the outcome is going to be decided in Washington.

MA can go right ahead and amend their own constitution, or whatever else they want to do. However, decisions like this are only going to light a fire under Bush and his own little Taliban to amend the US Constitution. And I think they can succeed. If they couldn't succeed today, they will be able to after November. One of the main reasons he wants another term is to load the Supreme Court with religious extremists, and if he wins, that is going to happen. They only need one more in there, and there will be a court that will push things like this through as fast as they can.

Sorry if I sound cynical. I think many people in the country couldn't care less about the issue. But there is a strident group of people who think this is the beginning of the end of civilization - ridiculous as that sounds. I think they will stop at nothing to prevent it.

Hold on Sparky - There is hope!!! :laugh:

Washington pretty much cannot override MA's definition of marriage even with a Const. Amendment, although they can sure try and they will :mad:

The IMO silly and hate filled proposed Const. Amendment I have seen (there are a few out there) is to strengthen the Defense of Marriage Act in that it will say or mean that no state has to recognize the definition of marriage as anything other than between one man and one woman. The reason for this proposed amendment is that if MA recognizes gay marriage, then by virtue of the full faith and credit clause and the line of relevant U.S. Sup. Ct. decisions, the other 49 states would be bound and would have to accept the MA marriage as a legal marriage in that other state.

It will be in any event interesting to see how this plays out.

Johnny Stew
02-05-2004, 05:17 PM
I'm sure it's no surprise to anyone, to know that I was very happy to hear about this. :)

We'll see where things go from here... I'm remaining "cautiously optimistic."